With zeniths readily available, wouldn't it make more sense for this new creature to be put into an aethervile shell?
I don't know. Vial doesn't need to hit 3 mana except for KotR as you abuse the thalia-wasteland-wayfarer-kotr synergies. Vial relies more upon hating out the opponent than zenith decks do. Zenith is more of a midrange 'the team comes together' feel than vial, where you could single handedly win off wasteland effects + thalia tax. That's not to say Zenith doesn't also achieve that playstyle -- but zenith you can hit 3 to 4 mana often (in my experiences). Vial you're topping out at 3.
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10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
With zeniths readily available, wouldn't it make more sense for this new creature to be put into an aethervile shell?
I don't know. Vial doesn't need to hit 3 mana except for KotR as you abuse the thalia-wasteland-wayfarer-kotr synergies. Vial relies more upon hating out the opponent than zenith decks do. Zenith is more of a midrange 'the team comes together' feel than vial, where you could single handedly win off wasteland effects + thalia tax. That's not to say Zenith doesn't also achieve that playstyle -- but zenith you can hit 3 to 4 mana often (in my experiences). Vial you're topping out at 3.
Then the question is, do we need 5-8 "zeniths" or is 4 enough?
I was initially interested in testing Sisay in Maverick, but Yissan seems to make that version irrelevant.
Hushwing Gryff 2W
type - Hippogryff
flash, flying
creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger
2/1
====
This would bring a very serious 3 drop back into the hatebear mix. I like this as an alt. Mindcensor...not sure the serious repercussions of this in the format. People saying Dreadnought works with this. I'm not sure. It shoots down SFM and TNN if I'm not mistaken.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I was a little excited about this until I realized that mindcensor has wider, albeit not as firm, targets. I don't think it hits tnn because tnn is not a trigger ability. You can't stifle tnn. Mindcensor hits fetchlands too, so I'll bet it's just a different, slightly under powered card for legacy. Modern, you have mch more targets in pod, resto angel and twin. Just my thoughts.
I was a little excited about this until I realized that mindcensor has wider, albeit not as firm, targets. I don't think it hits tnn because tnn is not a trigger ability. You can't stifle tnn. Mindcensor hits fetchlands too, so I'll bet it's just a different, slightly under powered card for legacy. Modern, you have mch more targets in pod, resto angel and twin. Just my thoughts.
I could see DnT running 2 mindscensor main and 2 griffs in the side as matches go. Especially because it can stop weird niche cards like ashen rider, harmonic sliver, etc... from giving decks comeback potential. But as an overall opinion, if I'm not using Mindscensor I doubt I'll use the griff.
I was a little excited about this until I realized that mindcensor has wider, albeit not as firm, targets. I don't think it hits tnn because tnn is not a trigger ability. You can't stifle tnn. Mindcensor hits fetchlands too, so I'll bet it's just a different, slightly under powered card for legacy. Modern, you have mch more targets in pod, resto angel and twin. Just my thoughts.
Re: TNN, I think you're right... can't stifle TNN, so I would think hushwing gryph doesn't stop it either, but I'm not 100% sure. I'll ask over in rulings.
I was a little excited about this until I realized that mindcensor has wider, albeit not as firm, targets. I don't think it hits tnn because tnn is not a trigger ability. You can't stifle tnn. Mindcensor hits fetchlands too, so I'll bet it's just a different, slightly under powered card for legacy. Modern, you have mch more targets in pod, resto angel and twin. Just my thoughts.
Re: TNN, I think you're right... can't stifle TNN, so I would think hushwing gryph doesn't stop it either, but I'm not 100% sure. I'll ask over in rulings.
Gryff says "don't cause abilities to trigger"...which is quite a blanket (powerful) clause.
I have no idea if it does/doesn't. I wanna say is DOES stop TNN since it's stopping all CIP abilities, not just looking for triggered or activated.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I'm new to legacy and interested in a Dark Maverick style deck. How does this differentiate from junk? Also could anyone provide a decent list of both? Thanks in advance for any help
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Currently playing:
Duel Commander: Marath, Will of the Wild
Tiny Leaders: Zo-Zu the Punisher
Modern: Burn, liege Rhino, and Zoo
Legacy: Zombardment
I'm new to legacy and interested in a Dark Maverick style deck. How does this differentiate from junk? Also could anyone provide a decent list of both? Thanks in advance for any help
To me the main difference is the inclusion of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Mother of Runes in Maverick. Additionally, Maverick tends to use Knight of the Reliquary to capitalize on mana denial (Wasteland + Thalia) where a Junk list might choose another option to grind out the game with card advantage and card quality.
I dunno why, but I love this direction. I feel like three fatties is a little much? Very clunky if you draw it. I would drop terestodon for Titan or angel so you can at least cast it if in opening hand or draw it, while still having the other two for "major boom boom" with natural order
There is overlap for sure (as can be seen in your deck) but Junk tends to be more Controlly/Grindy and about card advantage than Maverick; maverick tends to use hatebears to control the game by being a bit more aggro. Not really worth arguing over it; just IMO.
I'm new to legacy and interested in a Dark Maverick style deck. How does this differentiate from junk? Also could anyone provide a decent list of both? Thanks in advance for any help
There are three types.
Deadguy Ale (BWg)
Junk (BGw)
Maverick (GWb)
How heavily you lean on which colors will usually determine your name.
There is overlap for sure (as can be seen in your deck) but Junk tends to be more Controlly/Grindy and about card advantage than Maverick; maverick tends to use hatebears to control the game by being a bit more aggro. Not really worth arguing over it; just IMO.
I worked a bit more on the upcoming primer update. I agree with a lot of what's being said to distinguish the overlapping (great word) slots.
IMHO, and more of this will be in writing, Maverick is built off Mom + Thalia + [GSZ, KOTR, G mana dork]. If you aren't running those components in high capacities, you're not Maverick. The revamp has taken longer than expected because I've been working at my college full-time as staff so my brain and desire to write after a full day is limited. I would love to hear any and all questions. I have been on the deck for a while and if I personally don't know the answer, my friends and contacts certainly do.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I dunno why, but I love this direction. I feel like three fatties is a little much? Very clunky if you draw it. I would drop terestodon for Titan or angel so you can at least cast it if in opening hand or draw it, while still having the other two for "major boom boom" with natural order
Maybe three fatties are too many, but that's why it needs testing. I've tried out Sigarda in that slot, but didn't really find myself to NO for her when Terastodon and Prog are better targets. I never wanted to fetch a Titan in that slot either.
Empyrial Archangel would be a NO candidate if I were to push NO-Maverick. Stops TNN, delver, weenies, and burn. My concern about your list is jamming too many things. I actually thought about NO in Maverick (SB options of some winning lists got me thinking a while back). I do not like forcing NO, GSZ, SFM, and DD/Stage in 1 list. Cut the SFM and DD for NO to be more streamlined. That would allow you to build a manabase that has 2 dryad arbors and packs enough enablers to allow the NO to occur without whiffing on targets, etc.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I like Empyrial Archangel more than Elderscale Wurm. Less castable at 8cmc and needed Bant colors, but I feel like actually using Cradle + dorks to pump out Wurm is infrequent enough. Shroud on Archagel is a pretty big boon. Maybe I'm underrating the the ability to actually cast the Wurm, considering there is Crop Rotation to reliably hit Cradle?
I've considered the Archangel as potential NO target. Hard to say which one is better. Only long-term testing can show. Wurm is easier to cast (in theory) and is better at neutralizing small threats, but lacks the shroud to protect it.
Jamming "too many" things into one build is exactly its point, though. You trade some consistency for a significant power boost due to a huge amount of bombs which overload the opponent's ability to answer them all. Stuff like getting a SFM for Batterskull or KotR killed on T2, just to present them a Marit Lage token or Progenitus on T3 is hilarious.
Whether or not that's better than a NO build without SFM is debateable and only more testing can show that. I originally played Hoogland's latest list from MODO, but it somehow didn't click for me. That's why I came up with said list - and I like it alot so far in testing.
I don't get the logic whatsoever. If you want big fat stupid things, go play Nic Fit and toss NO into that shell. Or play a modified elves deck that for some reason packs SFM. You don't want to jam "whatever" because the deck will fail to execute. Legacy decks have taken shape thanks to consistency and efficiency. Packing too many strategies is the antithesis of what we're looking to achieve.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I really like natural order, conceptually. I just think a solid target against Miracles is a must.
Progenitus is probably the safest bet (shroud, 2 hits they die, protection from the universe), but even that thing fails against Terminus/sweepers. A contradictory pick would be NO -> Teeg. Lots of no-bo there (as Teeg shuts down subsequent NO's lol). The all-in move would be Terastadon. Your elephants win the next turn. Of course a sweeper (or "in response to attackers, miracle an army of angels") would mean you just scoop it up right there.
That's my only real problem with NO. It doesn't guarantee the win. Against fair decks there's merit. But we can hold our own against fair stuff. Against combo, NO is too slow. Against control, NO needs a "oops GG" option. You're limited to green targets, which is also problematic.
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10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
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I don't know. Vial doesn't need to hit 3 mana except for KotR as you abuse the thalia-wasteland-wayfarer-kotr synergies. Vial relies more upon hating out the opponent than zenith decks do. Zenith is more of a midrange 'the team comes together' feel than vial, where you could single handedly win off wasteland effects + thalia tax. That's not to say Zenith doesn't also achieve that playstyle -- but zenith you can hit 3 to 4 mana often (in my experiences). Vial you're topping out at 3.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Then the question is, do we need 5-8 "zeniths" or is 4 enough?
I was initially interested in testing Sisay in Maverick, but Yissan seems to make that version irrelevant.
Hushwing Gryff 2W
type - Hippogryff
flash, flying
creatures entering the battlefield don't cause abilities to trigger
2/1
====
This would bring a very serious 3 drop back into the hatebear mix. I like this as an alt. Mindcensor...not sure the serious repercussions of this in the format. People saying Dreadnought works with this. I'm not sure. It shoots down SFM and TNN if I'm not mistaken.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
I could see DnT running 2 mindscensor main and 2 griffs in the side as matches go. Especially because it can stop weird niche cards like ashen rider, harmonic sliver, etc... from giving decks comeback potential. But as an overall opinion, if I'm not using Mindscensor I doubt I'll use the griff.
Re: TNN, I think you're right... can't stifle TNN, so I would think hushwing gryph doesn't stop it either, but I'm not 100% sure. I'll ask over in rulings.
Gryff says "don't cause abilities to trigger"...which is quite a blanket (powerful) clause.
I have no idea if it does/doesn't. I wanna say is DOES stop TNN since it's stopping all CIP abilities, not just looking for triggered or activated.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
TNN doesn't have a trigger. You can't stifle a Revoker, you can't stifle a pithing needle. Same thing.
Duel Commander: Marath, Will of the Wild
Tiny Leaders: Zo-Zu the Punisher
Modern: Burn, liege Rhino, and Zoo
Legacy: Zombardment
To me the main difference is the inclusion of Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Mother of Runes in Maverick. Additionally, Maverick tends to use Knight of the Reliquary to capitalize on mana denial (Wasteland + Thalia) where a Junk list might choose another option to grind out the game with card advantage and card quality.
[Developing] 430+ Peasant Cube Thread --- [and on Cube Cobra]
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
Maverick: GSZ, Hatebears, KotR, Mom (Green & Taxes)
Junk: DRS, KotR, Lily, Discard, Decay (Jund with White)
DGA: DRS, SFM, DC, Lily (Deathblade & Taxes)
There is overlap for sure (as can be seen in your deck) but Junk tends to be more Controlly/Grindy and about card advantage than Maverick; maverick tends to use hatebears to control the game by being a bit more aggro. Not really worth arguing over it; just IMO.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
There are three types.
Deadguy Ale (BWg)
Junk (BGw)
Maverick (GWb)
How heavily you lean on which colors will usually determine your name.
I worked a bit more on the upcoming primer update. I agree with a lot of what's being said to distinguish the overlapping (great word) slots.
IMHO, and more of this will be in writing, Maverick is built off Mom + Thalia + [GSZ, KOTR, G mana dork]. If you aren't running those components in high capacities, you're not Maverick. The revamp has taken longer than expected because I've been working at my college full-time as staff so my brain and desire to write after a full day is limited. I would love to hear any and all questions. I have been on the deck for a while and if I personally don't know the answer, my friends and contacts certainly do.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Empyrial Archangel would be a NO candidate if I were to push NO-Maverick. Stops TNN, delver, weenies, and burn. My concern about your list is jamming too many things. I actually thought about NO in Maverick (SB options of some winning lists got me thinking a while back). I do not like forcing NO, GSZ, SFM, and DD/Stage in 1 list. Cut the SFM and DD for NO to be more streamlined. That would allow you to build a manabase that has 2 dryad arbors and packs enough enablers to allow the NO to occur without whiffing on targets, etc.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I don't get the logic whatsoever. If you want big fat stupid things, go play Nic Fit and toss NO into that shell. Or play a modified elves deck that for some reason packs SFM. You don't want to jam "whatever" because the deck will fail to execute. Legacy decks have taken shape thanks to consistency and efficiency. Packing too many strategies is the antithesis of what we're looking to achieve.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Progenitus is probably the safest bet (shroud, 2 hits they die, protection from the universe), but even that thing fails against Terminus/sweepers. A contradictory pick would be NO -> Teeg. Lots of no-bo there (as Teeg shuts down subsequent NO's lol). The all-in move would be Terastadon. Your elephants win the next turn. Of course a sweeper (or "in response to attackers, miracle an army of angels") would mean you just scoop it up right there.
That's my only real problem with NO. It doesn't guarantee the win. Against fair decks there's merit. But we can hold our own against fair stuff. Against combo, NO is too slow. Against control, NO needs a "oops GG" option. You're limited to green targets, which is also problematic.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod