so does Spirit of the Labyrinth work in a non-punishing fire list? the mana isn't so weak there, and Marsh Flats become better as a fetchland (i only point that out because i'm playing 4 alongside 4 mires and 3 verdents -- an availability thing). and if we're adding white, do we add souls, too?
With land prison-esque decks making a comeback recently I don't know if it would be the best idea. Jund Depths, Lands, and even RUG Delver all being bigger decks at this point in time makes this a bad idea. Maybe a light splash to make it work, but Chains seems like a better card to play.
At that point you might wanna play a straight up Junk/Dark Maverick list than a Jund/Junk hybrid.
so does Spirit of the Labyrinth work in a non-punishing fire list? the mana isn't so weak there, and Marsh Flats become better as a fetchland (i only point that out because i'm playing 4 alongside 4 mires and 3 verdents -- an availability thing). and if we're adding white, do we add souls, too?
With land prison-esque decks making a comeback recently I don't know if it would be the best idea. Jund Depths, Lands, and even RUG Delver all being bigger decks at this point in time makes this a bad idea. Maybe a light splash to make it work, but Chains seems like a better card to play.
At that point you might wanna play a straight up Junk/Dark Maverick list than a Jund/Junk hybrid.
that is a good point. for discussion purposes only, this is the decklist i'd envision:
so does Spirit of the Labyrinth work in a non-punishing fire list? the mana isn't so weak there, and Marsh Flats become better as a fetchland (i only point that out because i'm playing 4 alongside 4 mires and 3 verdents -- an availability thing). and if we're adding white, do we add souls, too?
With land prison-esque decks making a comeback recently I don't know if it would be the best idea. Jund Depths, Lands, and even RUG Delver all being bigger decks at this point in time makes this a bad idea. Maybe a light splash to make it work, but Chains seems like a better card to play.
At that point you might wanna play a straight up Junk/Dark Maverick list than a Jund/Junk hybrid.
I'd have to agree with this one. If you want to splash white for SoTL, you'll really have to drop a color. Between wastelands, Stifles, and our own groves, adding a fourth color would be a bit too greedy.
If SoTL is that relevant, going Junk seems like the most efficient way to do so.
I really ned advice for the uwr miracle mu. Preboard i lose around 75% of my Matches, because they simply put 4 Tokens into play EoT and hit me for 16, which is usually enough. They dont even bother playing Jace and concentate full on one of their 2 entreats. Postboard i got access to 3 REB, 1 Pithing Nedle, 2 Slaughter Games, 1 Chains, 1 Deed, but i still lose around 60-65% of my games, because they simply dont care. I got so many games where i have them down to 3 life, they are hellbent, have an empty board and only 5 lands (all basics) and i got at least some pressure on the board (Drs or P.Fire Engine online).
But that doesnt matter, because they find a top and kill me with entreat while on 1 life. I even lost a game against a hellbent opponent on Turn 6, when i casted Slaughter Games in Turn 4, because he made 2 Tokens in response and i did not find a removal fast enough.
Any tricks for that MU?
I really ned advice for the uwr miracle mu. Preboard i lose around 75% of my Matches, because they simply put 4 Tokens into play EoT and hit me for 16, which is usually enough. They dont even bother playing Jace and concentate full on one of their 2 entreats. Postboard i got access to 3 REB, 1 Pithing Nedle, 2 Slaughter Games, 1 Chains, 1 Deed, but i still lose around 60-65% of my games, because they simply dont care. I got so many games where i have them down to 3 life, they are hellbent, have an empty board and only 5 lands (all basics) and i got at least some pressure on the board (Drs or P.Fire Engine online).
But that doesnt matter, because they find a top and kill me with entreat while on 1 life. I even lost a game against a hellbent opponent on Turn 6, when i casted Slaughter Games in Turn 4, because he made 2 Tokens in response and i did not find a removal fast enough.
Any tricks for that MU?
I find Miracles to be actually in our favor. Probably like 65/35 in our favor. They have Rest in Peace to shut off our Punishing Fire engine, Tarmogoyf, and Deathrite Shaman but I usually save an Abrupt Decay for that (or Counterbalance). Bloodbraid Elf is a blow out in this match-up both game one and post-SB. And a resolved Liliana hurts them quite a bit.
As for Entreat, an EOT 4 or 5 tokens into the win is always a threat, but if it's one or two tokens I just reuse Punishing Fire over and over to kill their tokens. At a SCG I did that to someone's 3 or 4 tokens over the course of two turns and only got hit for like 4 or 8. They did gain a lot of life though from Grove activations. If you realy want to make your match-up better against them I'd suggest playing Krosan Grip to kill their Top. I used to until all of the True-Name decks made me change those to Golgari Charms. Also Slaughter Games naming Entreat (followed by Elspeth or Jace) is backbreaking. Myself (and others) also have 1 or 2 Scavenging Oozes in the SB not just for GY hate, but because unlike Goyf, it's still a 2/2 after a resolved RIP.
Again, I find the match-up actually in our favor. I usually take Game 1 and can take one more in the next two.
Now Marit Lage is turning up all over the format, what are Jund's best options of dealing with him? Other than a lucky hymn, we have no way of dealing with him or really the parts that make him happen game 1. Most sideboard options also seem quite sub par, other than pithing needle.
Save your Wastelands. Surgical Extraction post-board to keep them off the combo if they're facilitating it with Loam. If they just naturally draw it or Crop Rotate into it, it's rough.
Remember that their Urborg affects you and don't concede to their 20/20 when you have Liliana in hand and 2 green lands in play and another land in hand... </biggestpuntofmylife>.
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Winner of the SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Jul 26-28, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Las Vegas, NV, Dec 13-15, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Aug 28-30, 2015
Winner of SCG Worcester Team Sealed Open with Gerard Fabiano and Curtis Sheu, September 28, 2013
Remember that their Urborg affects you and don't concede to their 20/20 when you have Liliana in hand and 2 green lands in play and another land in hand... </biggestpuntofmylife>.
Wait you've made that punt before too?
I was at a SCG Open and 4 - 0 going into round 5 and lost to a Pox deck because I couldn't figure out how to deal with his 20/20. Guy even sighed which told me he knew he lost, but I just couldn't figure out how. I was doing the combat math and my DRS 2 damage triggers and for the life of me couldn't figure out how to get him to zero that turn. Every time I came up one damage short. That was the problem though, I didn't need to kill him that turn. I had a resolved Liliana in play and he only had the 20/20 out and one swamp (after Thespian Stage combo) and they were upset because all I had to do was -2 and he'd have died the next turn. Instead I +1'ed and lost -_-;;.
I don't know how the rest of that open would have went, but I was on tilt the rest of the tournament.
A lot of other decks play white so they have the semi-perfect answer of stp. We could go for edicts, as most decks packing the combo consistently have little other creatures. These have the added advantage of being occasional tech against sneaky show, reanimator, rug delver and TNN.
I tried 2 Edicts in my SB and really didn't like it. Yes it's something against the stuff you mentioned, but I really missed my extra combo hate. I went back to 3 Duress (was only running 2) and 2 Pithing Needle (was only running 1). Again, it's not terrible, but I'd prefer other SB options for other match-ups.
Remember that their Urborg affects you and don't concede to their 20/20 when you have Liliana in hand and 2 green lands in play and another land in hand... </biggestpuntofmylife>.
Wait you've made that punt before too?
I was at a SCG Open and 4 - 0 going into round 5 and lost to a Pox deck because I couldn't figure out how to deal with his 20/20. Guy even sighed which told me he knew he lost, but I just couldn't figure out how. I was doing the combat math and my DRS 2 damage triggers and for the life of me couldn't figure out how to get him to zero that turn. Every time I came up one damage short. That was the problem though, I didn't need to kill him that turn. I had a resolved Liliana in play and he only had the 20/20 out and one swamp (after Thespian Stage combo) and they were upset because all I had to do was -2 and he'd have died the next turn. Instead I +1'ed and lost -_-;;.
You just forgot you could -2 it? Haha. I knew I could but thought I couldn't cast it. It was on camera in the 4-1 bracket vs. Todd Anderson at SCG Columbus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lajKPy_X8ek (game 3)
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Winner of the SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Jul 26-28, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Las Vegas, NV, Dec 13-15, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Aug 28-30, 2015
Winner of SCG Worcester Team Sealed Open with Gerard Fabiano and Curtis Sheu, September 28, 2013
You just forgot you could -2 it? Haha. I knew I could but thought I couldn't cast it. It was on camera in the 4-1 bracket vs. Todd Anderson at SCG Columbus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lajKPy_X8ek (game 3)
Honestly I've just accepted that I will make at least one punt at any big tournament. It's sad, but true. After awhile my brain just doesn't have the stamina or discipline to keep at it, which I guess comes with a lot of practice at a medium to high-level. The punts will come and they're always different. Whether it's not -2'ing in one tournament or not casting my Surgical Extraction while I have priority against a Combo deck, which has also happened when I was on Esperblade. It's actually why I stopped playing Esperblade in larger tournaments. I can think of nothing more painful than playing a blue control deck for ~10 hours.
As for the game in question, I think the guy sighing actually messed me up. It made me think "There is some combination of things on board that wins me the game this turn and he knows it. Why else would he be upset?" so I just kept looking at it. I'm pretty sure he even called a judge for slow play so when I couldn't figure it out I just did what I thought was the best play (which still loses me the game and I knew that). Thing is, I don't think he did intentionally to ruin my line of thought either. I just misinterpretted haha.
I just watched the end of your match and damn the commentators. It's a good thing you don't hear them during the match. I mean I get that they see your punt, but still. I would think players would understand the conditions and stress you are under (including the camera). I think many viewers don't understand that part (i.e. the camera) and are a little harsher than usual.
Perhaps i did not explain my problem right: I have no Problem on Controlling the uwr Player. I had many games where i had 4 cards in Hand and uwr was hellbent. They did not a single point of damage to me till then, but that doesnt matter. They just find a Top, Entreat for 3 or 4 and win. Ofc is the game np after i play a slaughter games, but i need to play it on Turn 4 or else they will just cast it in response.
The quedtion is: what can i do to not die until then? Sure, with enough lands i can use fire on the angels, but then i have do deal with Counterspells as well. And believe me, a spell pierce on the second fire is backbreaking.
Perhaps i did not explain my problem right: I have no Problem on Controlling the uwr Player. I had many games where i had 4 cards in Hand and uwr was hellbent. They did not a single point of damage to me till then, but that doesnt matter. They just find a Top, Entreat for 3 or 4 and win. Ofc is the game np after i play a slaughter games, but i need to play it on Turn 4 or else they will just cast it in response.
The quedtion is: what can i do to not die until then? Sure, with enough lands i can use fire on the angels, but then i have do deal with Counterspells as well. And believe me, a spell pierce on the second fire is backbreaking.
I gave you some suggestions. Krosan Grip for Top should stop them for one. Also I don't know how many copies these players are running, but most UW Miracle players run 1 or 2 copies of Entreat so for them to consistently cast it on you Turn 4 or 5 seems unlikely and just bad luck. If it really comes down to dying then just Abrupt Decay one of the tokens. Our deck is built pretty well to beat this deck in my opinion.
Perhaps i did not explain my problem right: I have no Problem on Controlling the uwr Player. I had many games where i had 4 cards in Hand and uwr was hellbent. They did not a single point of damage to me till then, but that doesnt matter. They just find a Top, Entreat for 3 or 4 and win. Ofc is the game np after i play a slaughter games, but i need to play it on Turn 4 or else they will just cast it in response.
The quedtion is: what can i do to not die until then? Sure, with enough lands i can use fire on the angels, but then i have do deal with Counterspells as well. And believe me, a spell pierce on the second fire is backbreaking.
The problem may very well be that you're just letting them get back into the game too easily.
More aggression ends the game faster, giving them less chances to get an Entreat on top of the deck.
The big shop in the LA area (MTG Deals) had a big Legacy tournament. I had just finished most of the stuff I had with an Engineering project and was able to get there 5 mins before decklists and registration was due. There were around 60 people there, including Joe Lossett (who was really cool). Though the people were very friendly, there were quite a few who were very much dead set on winning. There was a 6+1 round tournament, so there was no cut to top 8, just one final round where the top 4 all played.
G1: showed how bad this matchup is pre-board. A Thoughtseize brought about a Brainstorm and revealed a hand of Entomb, Entomb, Reanimate, Polluted Delta, and Griselbrand. I was stuck on 1 land and no Liliana was in sight. One Reanimated Griselbrand and 2 swings later, it's on to G2.
-4 Hymn to Tourach, -4 Punishing Fire, -3 Abrupt Decay
I'm not 100% sure how correct putting in Choke was this game, but I never got to draw it.
G2: had me open to a hand with 1 DRS, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Surgical, 1 Liliana, and 3 Land, which proved to be way too much hate to fight through for him. I'm pretty sure I didn't show him enough to give him a clear handle of what i was playing.
G3: had him digging while I layed out a Grafdiggers. Show and Tell got blasted and Liliana got both of us Hellbent while a Revoker naming Lotus Petal beat him down.
G1: My opponent appeared to be fairly accomplished and was fairly nice. A T1 Swamp--->Inquisition had me guessing Pox, and an Urborg confirmed it. I used Punishing Fire to wittle away at him and kill 1 of his Mishra's Factories when he dropped the last thing I expected on me, a Tombstalker. 3 turns and no Liliana/Maelstrom Pulse and I conceded.
I had absolutely zero clue how to board against him since I am not very used to Pox. I chose this to fight through graveyard tricks and add another kill spell for Tombstalker.
-4 Thoughtseize
+2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Toxic Deluge
G2: An early Hymn+Surgical took care of his Tombstalkers and I was able to wittle down his answers until I could get a Goyf and a Bob out and beat him down. An Innocent Blood took out my Bob but Goyf was able to get there.
After seeing a Cursed Scroll, I did this for G3
-2 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Phyrexian Revoker
G3: After wittling each other down, a Mishra's Factory and Cursed Scroll took me down to 4. I Decayed the scroll and dropped a Goyf, which left me at 2 life facing his Urborg + 3 Factories while I had a 5/6 Goyf and Punishing Fire. He was at 7 and I had a chance to win the next turn. He draws a Dark Ritual and uses it to swing with all 3 of his Factories and hands me a loss.
In this match I played against a friend's deck that I knew very well. Basically it abused Young Pyromancer with Delver and Deathrite. The entire deck folded to Punishing Fire. Punishing Fire got online early G1 and he was beaten down by a 5/6 Goyf. I only took out the Thoughtseizes for 2 Golgari Charm and 2 Choke for the next game. Punishing Fire getting online and me resolving a Bloodbraid--->Hymn brought on a concede from my opponent.
It was his first Legacy tournament and he played the deck well.
G1: I kept a 1 lander + Wasteland with a Bob, 1 Lilliana, and 2 Hymns thinking it would be ok. 2 Ichorids and 3 Nether Shadows later brought a concede from me so he would not know what I was playing.
-4 Hymn to Tourach, -4 Liliana +2 Grafdigger's Cage
G1: Currently 1-3 in the first round, I kept a greedy hand that had a chance to work (1 land and 6 2 mana spells) to see my opponent dump his hand. I conceded when I was too buried in Elves to dig my way out so he wouldn't know what I was on.
G2: I began with a Thoughtseize that took Natural Order out of his hand. Next turn I dropped a Grafdigger's and a Deathrite to put some pressure on the board. When I saw him write "Jund" on his score sheet I knew he hadn't sideboarded correctly. After that I put down a Grove and had Punishing Fire active and rode Liliana to victory.
G3: was much more of a slog. Though I got Punishing Fire active, he was able to GSZ for a Scavenging Ooze and eat the Fire. Phyrexian Revoker naming Heritage Druid was the only thing stopping him from grabbing Craterhoof with his second GSZ, so he attempted to pile out all his creatures to Cradle for the 9 mana necessary for Craterhoof, and a Golgari Charm blew him out. This was possibly the hardest fought match of the tournament, but I was able to eek it out.
G1: I faced a guy who I remembered from GP Sacramento and we had a grueling match. We traded kills on Deathrites and midgame he had a Batterskull and 4 land vs. my 4/5 Goyf and 4 land, both of us with no cards in hand. He plays a TNN and I cascade into a Goyf with a Bloodbraid. He gets his 5th land, equips Batterskull to TNN and puts me dead on board next turn. He tells me to just slam the top card. It's a Liliana and he loses on my swing after I make him sac the TNN.
-4 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Punishing Fire, -1 Abrupt Decay, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Grove of the Burnwillows, -1 Tarmogoyf
+1 Ancient Grudge, +2 Choke, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Deluge
I've recently began taking out 1 land for this matchup and it had been working beautifully every single time. Shaving the Decay and the Thoughtseize are hard to do, but it's hard to justify me going down to 2 Punishing Fire (I may try doing something like that later).
G2: He leads off with double Thoughtseize that takes my Choke and Decay. He was able to get me low enough with a DRS to finish me off with a Vendilion Clique flashing in.
+2 Hymn, -1 Choke, -1 Deluge
G3: I take early control with a quick Deathrite into Hymn + Thoughtseize. He fights back with multiple removal spells on my creatures to leave us both hellbent after he FOW-ed my Liliana. My second Liliana gets through and I'm able to ride her through to victory.
So I'm currently 4th place in the standings and I'm facing the guy in 2nd. My opponent and I knew each other through a 3rd party friend. I concede to him so he still has a chance at 1st and we agree to split the money 50/50 after. We both decided to play a match to figure out who would have won anyway.
G1: I fell for the old Stoneforge fetching Jitte---->dropping in an already drawn Batterskull into play because I dallied on removal for a chance to Hymn him. The Batterskull is eventually Maelstrom-ed, but the ensuing TNN gets a little help from my Bob digging for answers to drop me.
-4 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Punishing Fire, -1 Abrupt Decay, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Grove of the Burnwillows, -1 Tarmogoyf
+1 Ancient Grudge, +2 Choke, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Deluge
This matchup, because he played Baleful Strix and Academy Ruins, I definitely could not take out the 2nd Punishing Fire.
G2: He plays a Stoneforge and I Decay it and he proceeds to Surgical my Decay. Luckily, since I only have 3, it's not absolutely crippling and a quick Bob+Goyf puts him on a short clock. An attempted Choke is FOW-ed and his Batterskull gets double Punishing Fire-ed. My Bob flipping a Maelstrom Pulse bring a concession from him.
G3: He mulls to 5 and his T1 Thoughtseize takes my Choke. I draw a 2nd Wasteland and I figure he is light on land if he took a Choke over Liliana or Goyf. I Waste his Underground Sea, and then Waste his second on the next turn. A Brainstorm finds 0 lands and he concedes the match to me.
Record: Officially 6-2 and 4th place with the last concession, 7-1 and 2nd place in actual matches.
I need to mulligan better in my early games. I lost most of my G1s because I was very greedy and the blind hands I kept were not very good at all. Once I understood what each of my opponents were on, I mulled well.
Choke was the best card that I never got to cast, and Phyrexian Revoker was an absolute all-star in the matches he came in. Being able to name Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, and Heritage Druid is a massive bonus, and having legs is a big benefit against combo.
Being able to bluff what I am on is a massive upside. For that reason I will work toward buying a playset of Polluted Delta to muddle what deck I might be on. Much of my success in G2 was attributed to the fact that, in 3 games, I did so horribly G1 and conceded before my opponents knew what deck I was playing that they didn't sideboard properly.
Scavenging Ooze is exactly what I thought he was, a mana sink that usually functions as a lesser Goyf. I used the winnings of this tourney to buy the last Goyf that I needed.
I recently added the 4th Hymn mainboard and it has been doing well. I like having so much disruption MB against random combo decks, and it's such powerful card advantage that it even works vs. fair decks.
Grats on the win!
I noticed that you're running the boltless version. At any one point did you miss the bolts?
(specifically against elves)
Seeing your list and report makes me want to add the singleton maelstrom pulse back into the maindeck. D:
Do you like Toxic Deluge as a card? How is it as a singleton, being brought in alongside golgari charms?
Is one life from the Loam enough in the sideboard? My list currently has one in the main and another in the side. =/
Is two too much?
Grats on the win!
I noticed that you're running the boltless version. At any one point did you miss the bolts?
(specifically against elves)
Seeing your list and report makes me want to add the singleton maelstrom pulse back into the maindeck. D:
Do you like Toxic Deluge as a card? How is it as a singleton, being brought in alongside golgari charms?
Is one life from the Loam enough in the sideboard? My list currently has one in the main and another in the side. =/
Is two too much?
I almost never miss the Bolts. Only time I wanted one was on the draw vs. the 4 color Delver deck, but Thoughtseize---> Punishing Fire almost always functions in the same purpose. Against Elves I was fine with just the Fire, as it was enough to keep him down.
Deluge has been incredible. It's much better vs. Deathblade because you can wipe the entire field and works in a pinch vs. Elves (I have won a game because their last ditch play was to NO for Progenitus and I Deluged for 10). If Stoneblade stays this big, I may take out a Hymn MB for a Golgari Charm and run 2 Deluge in the SB.
2 is just fine. I was just anticipating more basic fetching decks this tournament. I saw some RUG and UWR but it was mostly Stoneblade and combo decks.
Grats on the win!
I noticed that you're running the boltless version. At any one point did you miss the bolts?
(specifically against elves)
Seeing your list and report makes me want to add the singleton maelstrom pulse back into the maindeck. D:
Do you like Toxic Deluge as a card? How is it as a singleton, being brought in alongside golgari charms?
Is one life from the Loam enough in the sideboard? My list currently has one in the main and another in the side. =/
Is two too much?
I almost never miss the Bolts. Only time I wanted one was on the draw vs. the 4 color Delver deck, but Thoughtseize---> Punishing Fire almost always functions in the same purpose. Against Elves I was fine with just the Fire, as it was enough to keep him down.
I'd have to agree with this. Having gone Boltless months ago I've rarely missed them. For the games where I need it, usually it's grindy enough that I can just get a Punishing Fire engine going and still remove everything. Even Mother of Runes (i.e. end of turn, fire, my turn again). More importantly I feel those two slots give Jund a lot of good utility slots. I currently am running one Maelstrom Pulse and one Loam MB and I find the utility of those better than the two bolts.
Played this deck today (Don't remember a whole lot, but I'll still write it up):
Round 1 (Against Burn):
Game 1: Keep a 1 lander, proceeded to draw no land. got burned out.
Game 2: Keep a much better hand. But he burned out my Deathrites.
0-1 (0-2)
Round 2 (Doomsday):
Game 1: Thoughtseized and took his Gitaxian Probe and he proceeded to not draw anything, and I rode a Bloodbraid to victory.
Game 2: He combo'd off early.
Game 3: Played Hymn turn 2 on the play, hit two lands, but this did him in (took his only fetch)
1-1 (2-3)
Round 3 (Ad Nauseam Tendrils):
Game 1: I literally didn't know what he was playing other than I guessed some type of combo. I'm not sure what happened, but I put him on a fast clock and won.
Game 2: He kept a one lander, I wasted it and Pyroblast'd his Brainstorm. That pretty much crippled him.
2-1 (4-3)
Round 4 (American Delver):
Game 1: Got two Deathrites going and had answers to his threats with a BBE cascading into a Abrupt Decay to kill something on the board.
Game 2: He played multiple Meddling Mages and RiP and that was the end of me.
Game 3: Fetched a non-basic instead of swamp to lead out (big mistake). He Wasteland'd my first 3 land drops. Had two Stoneforge Mystics out, a Sword of Feast and Famine and RiP. Top decked a land two turns in a row to cast Pernicious Deed, cracked it one turn later to stabilize. Got the punishing fire engine going with a Deathrite out and had answers to everything he played. Finished him off with Goyf,
3-1 (6-4)
Finished 4th out of 12 people. Not bad for my first event in 18 months. Definitely need to work on SBing more, grabing basics in the early game, when to cast BBE and just general play decisions.
Played this deck today (Don't remember a whole lot, but I'll still write it up):
Round 1 (Against Burn):
Game 1: Keep a 1 lander, proceeded to draw no land. got burned out.
Game 2: Keep a much better hand. But he burned out my Deathrites.
0-1 (0-2)
Round 2 (Doomsday):
Game 1: Thoughtseized and took his Gitaxian Probe and he proceeded to not draw anything, and I rode a Bloodbraid to victory.
Game 2: He combo'd off early.
Game 3: Played Hymn turn 2 on the play, hit two lands, but this did him in (took his only fetch)
1-1 (2-3)
Round 3 (Ad Nauseam Tendrils):
Game 1: I literally didn't know what he was playing other than I guessed some type of combo. I'm not sure what happened, but I put him on a fast clock and won.
Game 2: He kept a one lander, I wasted it and Pyroblast'd his Brainstorm. That pretty much crippled him.
2-1 (4-3)
Round 4 (American Delver):
Game 1: Got two Deathrites going and had answers to his threats with a BBE cascading into a Abrupt Decay to kill something on the board.
Game 2: He played multiple Meddling Mages and RiP and that was the end of me.
Game 3: Fetched a non-basic instead of swamp to lead out (big mistake). He Wasteland'd my first 3 land drops. Had two Stoneforge Mystics out, a Sword of Feast and Famine and RiP. Top decked a land two turns in a row to cast Pernicious Deed, cracked it one turn later to stabilize. Got the punishing fire engine going with a Deathrite out and had answers to everything he played. Finished him off with Goyf,
3-1 (6-4)
Finished 4th out of 12 people. Not bad for my first event in 18 months. Definitely need to work on SBing more, grabing basics in the early game, when to cast BBE and just general play decisions.
Just one Pyroblast seems like a massive omission. Why only 1?
With land prison-esque decks making a comeback recently I don't know if it would be the best idea. Jund Depths, Lands, and even RUG Delver all being bigger decks at this point in time makes this a bad idea. Maybe a light splash to make it work, but Chains seems like a better card to play.
At that point you might wanna play a straight up Junk/Dark Maverick list than a Jund/Junk hybrid.
Jund
Legacy:
4c Loam
Noble BUG
that is a good point. for discussion purposes only, this is the decklist i'd envision:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Thoughseize
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Lingering Souls
4 Marsh Flats
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Verdent Catacombs
3 Badlands
2 Bayou
2 Scrubland
2 Wasteland
1 Taiga
1 Swamp
1 Forest
I'd have to agree with this one. If you want to splash white for SoTL, you'll really have to drop a color. Between wastelands, Stifles, and our own groves, adding a fourth color would be a bit too greedy.
If SoTL is that relevant, going Junk seems like the most efficient way to do so.
It hits the same decks that Chains would (sans Elves) and goes with the same gameplan, to slow down certain decks.
Jund
Legacy:
4c Loam
Noble BUG
But that doesnt matter, because they find a top and kill me with entreat while on 1 life. I even lost a game against a hellbent opponent on Turn 6, when i casted Slaughter Games in Turn 4, because he made 2 Tokens in response and i did not find a removal fast enough.
Any tricks for that MU?
Legacy/Standard/Modern Gameplay
Cube/Commander/Draft
Spiel Raum Wien
I find Miracles to be actually in our favor. Probably like 65/35 in our favor. They have Rest in Peace to shut off our Punishing Fire engine, Tarmogoyf, and Deathrite Shaman but I usually save an Abrupt Decay for that (or Counterbalance). Bloodbraid Elf is a blow out in this match-up both game one and post-SB. And a resolved Liliana hurts them quite a bit.
As for Entreat, an EOT 4 or 5 tokens into the win is always a threat, but if it's one or two tokens I just reuse Punishing Fire over and over to kill their tokens. At a SCG I did that to someone's 3 or 4 tokens over the course of two turns and only got hit for like 4 or 8. They did gain a lot of life though from Grove activations. If you realy want to make your match-up better against them I'd suggest playing Krosan Grip to kill their Top. I used to until all of the True-Name decks made me change those to Golgari Charms. Also Slaughter Games naming Entreat (followed by Elspeth or Jace) is backbreaking. Myself (and others) also have 1 or 2 Scavenging Oozes in the SB not just for GY hate, but because unlike Goyf, it's still a 2/2 after a resolved RIP.
Again, I find the match-up actually in our favor. I usually take Game 1 and can take one more in the next two.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
I like Choke but in my metagame there are a lot of BUG players so it ends up being abrupt decay bait.
R/W Devotion
Mono-R Devotion
Legacy
Burn
Punishing Jund
Save your Wastelands. Surgical Extraction post-board to keep them off the combo if they're facilitating it with Loam. If they just naturally draw it or Crop Rotate into it, it's rough.
Remember that their Urborg affects you and don't concede to their 20/20 when you have Liliana in hand and 2 green lands in play and another land in hand... </biggestpuntofmylife>.
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Las Vegas, NV, Dec 13-15, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Aug 28-30, 2015
Winner of SCG Worcester Team Sealed Open with Gerard Fabiano and Curtis Sheu, September 28, 2013
twitter
Wait you've made that punt before too?
I was at a SCG Open and 4 - 0 going into round 5 and lost to a Pox deck because I couldn't figure out how to deal with his 20/20. Guy even sighed which told me he knew he lost, but I just couldn't figure out how. I was doing the combat math and my DRS 2 damage triggers and for the life of me couldn't figure out how to get him to zero that turn. Every time I came up one damage short. That was the problem though, I didn't need to kill him that turn. I had a resolved Liliana in play and he only had the 20/20 out and one swamp (after Thespian Stage combo) and they were upset because all I had to do was -2 and he'd have died the next turn. Instead I +1'ed and lost -_-;;.
I don't know how the rest of that open would have went, but I was on tilt the rest of the tournament.
I tried 2 Edicts in my SB and really didn't like it. Yes it's something against the stuff you mentioned, but I really missed my extra combo hate. I went back to 3 Duress (was only running 2) and 2 Pithing Needle (was only running 1). Again, it's not terrible, but I'd prefer other SB options for other match-ups.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
You just forgot you could -2 it? Haha. I knew I could but thought I couldn't cast it. It was on camera in the 4-1 bracket vs. Todd Anderson at SCG Columbus: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lajKPy_X8ek (game 3)
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Las Vegas, NV, Dec 13-15, 2013
Top 8 of SCG Invitational, Somerset, NJ, Aug 28-30, 2015
Winner of SCG Worcester Team Sealed Open with Gerard Fabiano and Curtis Sheu, September 28, 2013
twitter
Honestly I've just accepted that I will make at least one punt at any big tournament. It's sad, but true. After awhile my brain just doesn't have the stamina or discipline to keep at it, which I guess comes with a lot of practice at a medium to high-level. The punts will come and they're always different. Whether it's not -2'ing in one tournament or not casting my Surgical Extraction while I have priority against a Combo deck, which has also happened when I was on Esperblade. It's actually why I stopped playing Esperblade in larger tournaments. I can think of nothing more painful than playing a blue control deck for ~10 hours.
As for the game in question, I think the guy sighing actually messed me up. It made me think "There is some combination of things on board that wins me the game this turn and he knows it. Why else would he be upset?" so I just kept looking at it. I'm pretty sure he even called a judge for slow play so when I couldn't figure it out I just did what I thought was the best play (which still loses me the game and I knew that). Thing is, I don't think he did intentionally to ruin my line of thought either. I just misinterpretted haha.
I just watched the end of your match and damn the commentators. It's a good thing you don't hear them during the match. I mean I get that they see your punt, but still. I would think players would understand the conditions and stress you are under (including the camera). I think many viewers don't understand that part (i.e. the camera) and are a little harsher than usual.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
The quedtion is: what can i do to not die until then? Sure, with enough lands i can use fire on the angels, but then i have do deal with Counterspells as well. And believe me, a spell pierce on the second fire is backbreaking.
Legacy/Standard/Modern Gameplay
Cube/Commander/Draft
Spiel Raum Wien
I gave you some suggestions. Krosan Grip for Top should stop them for one. Also I don't know how many copies these players are running, but most UW Miracle players run 1 or 2 copies of Entreat so for them to consistently cast it on you Turn 4 or 5 seems unlikely and just bad luck. If it really comes down to dying then just Abrupt Decay one of the tokens. Our deck is built pretty well to beat this deck in my opinion.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
The problem may very well be that you're just letting them get back into the game too easily.
More aggression ends the game faster, giving them less chances to get an Entreat on top of the deck.
Jund
Legacy:
4c Loam
Noble BUG
Decklist here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/punishing-jund-16-02-14-1/
Round 1: Reanimator
G1: showed how bad this matchup is pre-board. A Thoughtseize brought about a Brainstorm and revealed a hand of Entomb, Entomb, Reanimate, Polluted Delta, and Griselbrand. I was stuck on 1 land and no Liliana was in sight. One Reanimated Griselbrand and 2 swings later, it's on to G2.
-4 Hymn to Tourach, -4 Punishing Fire, -3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Grafdigger's Cage, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Phyrexian Revoker, +1 Toxic Deluge, +2 Choke
I'm not 100% sure how correct putting in Choke was this game, but I never got to draw it.
G2: had me open to a hand with 1 DRS, 2 Pyroblast, 1 Surgical, 1 Liliana, and 3 Land, which proved to be way too much hate to fight through for him. I'm pretty sure I didn't show him enough to give him a clear handle of what i was playing.
G3: had him digging while I layed out a Grafdiggers. Show and Tell got blasted and Liliana got both of us Hellbent while a Revoker naming Lotus Petal beat him down.
Record: 1-0
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Round 2: Pox
G1: My opponent appeared to be fairly accomplished and was fairly nice. A T1 Swamp--->Inquisition had me guessing Pox, and an Urborg confirmed it. I used Punishing Fire to wittle away at him and kill 1 of his Mishra's Factories when he dropped the last thing I expected on me, a Tombstalker. 3 turns and no Liliana/Maelstrom Pulse and I conceded.
I had absolutely zero clue how to board against him since I am not very used to Pox. I chose this to fight through graveyard tricks and add another kill spell for Tombstalker.
-4 Thoughtseize
+2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Life from the Loam, +1 Toxic Deluge
G2: An early Hymn+Surgical took care of his Tombstalkers and I was able to wittle down his answers until I could get a Goyf and a Bob out and beat him down. An Innocent Blood took out my Bob but Goyf was able to get there.
After seeing a Cursed Scroll, I did this for G3
-2 Hymn to Tourach, +1 Ancient Grudge, +1 Phyrexian Revoker
G3: After wittling each other down, a Mishra's Factory and Cursed Scroll took me down to 4. I Decayed the scroll and dropped a Goyf, which left me at 2 life facing his Urborg + 3 Factories while I had a 5/6 Goyf and Punishing Fire. He was at 7 and I had a chance to win the next turn. He draws a Dark Ritual and uses it to swing with all 3 of his Factories and hands me a loss.
Record: 1-1
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Round 3: BURG Delver
In this match I played against a friend's deck that I knew very well. Basically it abused Young Pyromancer with Delver and Deathrite. The entire deck folded to Punishing Fire. Punishing Fire got online early G1 and he was beaten down by a 5/6 Goyf. I only took out the Thoughtseizes for 2 Golgari Charm and 2 Choke for the next game. Punishing Fire getting online and me resolving a Bloodbraid--->Hymn brought on a concede from my opponent.
It was his first Legacy tournament and he played the deck well.
Record: 2-1
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Round 4: Manaless Dredge
G1: I kept a 1 lander + Wasteland with a Bob, 1 Lilliana, and 2 Hymns thinking it would be ok. 2 Ichorids and 3 Nether Shadows later brought a concede from me so he would not know what I was playing.
-4 Hymn to Tourach, -4 Liliana +2 Grafdigger's Cage
+2 Surgical Extraction, +1 Toxic Deluge, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Phyrexian Revoker
Games 2 and 3 began and ended the same way. Turn 1 Grafdiggers ---> concede.
Record: 3-1
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Round 5: Elves!
G1: Currently 1-3 in the first round, I kept a greedy hand that had a chance to work (1 land and 6 2 mana spells) to see my opponent dump his hand. I conceded when I was too buried in Elves to dig my way out so he wouldn't know what I was on.
-3 Bloodbraid, -1 Bob, -1 Scavenging Ooze, -1 Tarmogoyf
+2 Grafdiggers, +1 Revoker, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Toxic Deluge
G2: I began with a Thoughtseize that took Natural Order out of his hand. Next turn I dropped a Grafdigger's and a Deathrite to put some pressure on the board. When I saw him write "Jund" on his score sheet I knew he hadn't sideboarded correctly. After that I put down a Grove and had Punishing Fire active and rode Liliana to victory.
G3: was much more of a slog. Though I got Punishing Fire active, he was able to GSZ for a Scavenging Ooze and eat the Fire. Phyrexian Revoker naming Heritage Druid was the only thing stopping him from grabbing Craterhoof with his second GSZ, so he attempted to pile out all his creatures to Cradle for the 9 mana necessary for Craterhoof, and a Golgari Charm blew him out. This was possibly the hardest fought match of the tournament, but I was able to eek it out.
Record: 4-1
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Round 6: Deathblade
G1: I faced a guy who I remembered from GP Sacramento and we had a grueling match. We traded kills on Deathrites and midgame he had a Batterskull and 4 land vs. my 4/5 Goyf and 4 land, both of us with no cards in hand. He plays a TNN and I cascade into a Goyf with a Bloodbraid. He gets his 5th land, equips Batterskull to TNN and puts me dead on board next turn. He tells me to just slam the top card. It's a Liliana and he loses on my swing after I make him sac the TNN.
-4 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Punishing Fire, -1 Abrupt Decay, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Grove of the Burnwillows, -1 Tarmogoyf
+1 Ancient Grudge, +2 Choke, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Deluge
I've recently began taking out 1 land for this matchup and it had been working beautifully every single time. Shaving the Decay and the Thoughtseize are hard to do, but it's hard to justify me going down to 2 Punishing Fire (I may try doing something like that later).
G2: He leads off with double Thoughtseize that takes my Choke and Decay. He was able to get me low enough with a DRS to finish me off with a Vendilion Clique flashing in.
+2 Hymn, -1 Choke, -1 Deluge
G3: I take early control with a quick Deathrite into Hymn + Thoughtseize. He fights back with multiple removal spells on my creatures to leave us both hellbent after he FOW-ed my Liliana. My second Liliana gets through and I'm able to ride her through to victory.
Record: 5-1
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Round 7: Stoneblade
So I'm currently 4th place in the standings and I'm facing the guy in 2nd. My opponent and I knew each other through a 3rd party friend. I concede to him so he still has a chance at 1st and we agree to split the money 50/50 after. We both decided to play a match to figure out who would have won anyway.
G1: I fell for the old Stoneforge fetching Jitte---->dropping in an already drawn Batterskull into play because I dallied on removal for a chance to Hymn him. The Batterskull is eventually Maelstrom-ed, but the ensuing TNN gets a little help from my Bob digging for answers to drop me.
-4 Hymn to Tourach, -1 Punishing Fire, -1 Abrupt Decay, -1 Thoughtseize, -1 Grove of the Burnwillows, -1 Tarmogoyf
+1 Ancient Grudge, +2 Choke, +2 Golgari Charm, +2 Pyroblast, +1 Red Elemental Blast, +1 Deluge
This matchup, because he played Baleful Strix and Academy Ruins, I definitely could not take out the 2nd Punishing Fire.
G2: He plays a Stoneforge and I Decay it and he proceeds to Surgical my Decay. Luckily, since I only have 3, it's not absolutely crippling and a quick Bob+Goyf puts him on a short clock. An attempted Choke is FOW-ed and his Batterskull gets double Punishing Fire-ed. My Bob flipping a Maelstrom Pulse bring a concession from him.
G3: He mulls to 5 and his T1 Thoughtseize takes my Choke. I draw a 2nd Wasteland and I figure he is light on land if he took a Choke over Liliana or Goyf. I Waste his Underground Sea, and then Waste his second on the next turn. A Brainstorm finds 0 lands and he concedes the match to me.
Record: Officially 6-2 and 4th place with the last concession, 7-1 and 2nd place in actual matches.
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Analysis
I need to mulligan better in my early games. I lost most of my G1s because I was very greedy and the blind hands I kept were not very good at all. Once I understood what each of my opponents were on, I mulled well.
Choke was the best card that I never got to cast, and Phyrexian Revoker was an absolute all-star in the matches he came in. Being able to name Lion's Eye Diamond, Lotus Petal, and Heritage Druid is a massive bonus, and having legs is a big benefit against combo.
Being able to bluff what I am on is a massive upside. For that reason I will work toward buying a playset of Polluted Delta to muddle what deck I might be on. Much of my success in G2 was attributed to the fact that, in 3 games, I did so horribly G1 and conceded before my opponents knew what deck I was playing that they didn't sideboard properly.
Scavenging Ooze is exactly what I thought he was, a mana sink that usually functions as a lesser Goyf. I used the winnings of this tourney to buy the last Goyf that I needed.
I recently added the 4th Hymn mainboard and it has been doing well. I like having so much disruption MB against random combo decks, and it's such powerful card advantage that it even works vs. fair decks.
Jund
Legacy:
4c Loam
Noble BUG
I noticed that you're running the boltless version. At any one point did you miss the bolts?
(specifically against elves)
Seeing your list and report makes me want to add the singleton maelstrom pulse back into the maindeck. D:
Do you like Toxic Deluge as a card? How is it as a singleton, being brought in alongside golgari charms?
Is one life from the Loam enough in the sideboard? My list currently has one in the main and another in the side. =/
Is two too much?
I almost never miss the Bolts. Only time I wanted one was on the draw vs. the 4 color Delver deck, but Thoughtseize---> Punishing Fire almost always functions in the same purpose. Against Elves I was fine with just the Fire, as it was enough to keep him down.
Deluge has been incredible. It's much better vs. Deathblade because you can wipe the entire field and works in a pinch vs. Elves (I have won a game because their last ditch play was to NO for Progenitus and I Deluged for 10). If Stoneblade stays this big, I may take out a Hymn MB for a Golgari Charm and run 2 Deluge in the SB.
2 is just fine. I was just anticipating more basic fetching decks this tournament. I saw some RUG and UWR but it was mostly Stoneblade and combo decks.
Jund
Legacy:
4c Loam
Noble BUG
I'd have to agree with this. Having gone Boltless months ago I've rarely missed them. For the games where I need it, usually it's grindy enough that I can just get a Punishing Fire engine going and still remove everything. Even Mother of Runes (i.e. end of turn, fire, my turn again). More importantly I feel those two slots give Jund a lot of good utility slots. I currently am running one Maelstrom Pulse and one Loam MB and I find the utility of those better than the two bolts.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
2 Lightning Bolt
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Thoughtseize
3 Hymn to Tourach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Forest
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
4 Wasteland
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills[
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pyroblast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Duress
1 Life from the Loam
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Pithing Needle
Played this deck today (Don't remember a whole lot, but I'll still write it up):
Round 1 (Against Burn):
Game 1: Keep a 1 lander, proceeded to draw no land. got burned out.
Game 2: Keep a much better hand. But he burned out my Deathrites.
0-1 (0-2)
Round 2 (Doomsday):
Game 1: Thoughtseized and took his Gitaxian Probe and he proceeded to not draw anything, and I rode a Bloodbraid to victory.
Game 2: He combo'd off early.
Game 3: Played Hymn turn 2 on the play, hit two lands, but this did him in (took his only fetch)
1-1 (2-3)
Round 3 (Ad Nauseam Tendrils):
Game 1: I literally didn't know what he was playing other than I guessed some type of combo. I'm not sure what happened, but I put him on a fast clock and won.
Game 2: He kept a one lander, I wasted it and Pyroblast'd his Brainstorm. That pretty much crippled him.
2-1 (4-3)
Round 4 (American Delver):
Game 1: Got two Deathrites going and had answers to his threats with a BBE cascading into a Abrupt Decay to kill something on the board.
Game 2: He played multiple Meddling Mages and RiP and that was the end of me.
Game 3: Fetched a non-basic instead of swamp to lead out (big mistake). He Wasteland'd my first 3 land drops. Had two Stoneforge Mystics out, a Sword of Feast and Famine and RiP. Top decked a land two turns in a row to cast Pernicious Deed, cracked it one turn later to stabilize. Got the punishing fire engine going with a Deathrite out and had answers to everything he played. Finished him off with Goyf,
3-1 (6-4)
Finished 4th out of 12 people. Not bad for my first event in 18 months. Definitely need to work on SBing more, grabing basics in the early game, when to cast BBE and just general play decisions.
Just one Pyroblast seems like a massive omission. Why only 1?
Jund
Legacy:
4c Loam
Noble BUG