[Deck/Primer] U/r/(x) Delver

  • #202
    Oh my god, can you imagine the fit the Burn players would throw if you started talking about Burn with a blue splash in their thread? "THERE'S A THREAD FOR THAT!" the cries would wail out. They'd be talking about this thread. And they'd be right. Every thread has different versions of your deck and they may not be of interest to you, but when they share the color identity and 75% of the cards, you gotta deal with it.

    Regarding that creatureless build above, I would agree that Snapcaster is an upgrade to the deck, even though it gives them a target for their removal. But for different reasons.

    If you want to play Thunderous Wrath - and lets face it, you do! - you need all the Brainstorms you can get. Four probably isn't enough, and Ponder just doesn't cut it (though it's still a necessary piece). Snapping back a Brainstorm to dig for relevant Burn and bury your Thunderous Wrath when it's the last card in your hand is vitally important. Otherwise they will sit in your hand more often than you'd like, I fear.

    Plus, the other points about Tiago are also quite relevant. Having a chump-blocking body means you don't have to aim Burn spells at the creature that's about to kill you. That means you can use those Burn spells to kill your opponent the next turn instead. 1UR for 3 damage and a 2/1 is probably not good enough to be played on its own, but it's close. But combine that with the ability to also sometimes be a 2/1 that Brainstorms for 1UR and it's probably one of the best cards in the deck, especially if you're playing conditional cards like Wrath, PoP, or the like.
    Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
    U Merfolk U
    U G W NO Bant U G W
    U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
    Other Legacy Decks I Own:
    R G W Zoo! R G W
    B G W Junk B G W
    R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
    B W Deadguy B W
    W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
    G W Green & Taxes G W
    B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
    EDH Generals/Decks:
    Glissa
    Momir Vig
    Brion Stoutarm
    Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
    Arcum Daggson
  • #203
    Quote from DMel
    Oh my god, can you imagine the fit the Burn players would throw if you started talking about Burn with a blue splash in their thread? "THERE'S A THREAD FOR THAT!" the cries would wail out. They'd be talking about this thread. And they'd be right. Every thread has different versions of your deck and they may not be of interest to you, but when they share the color identity and 75% of the cards, you gotta deal with it.


    Thank you on so many levels. I'm glad I don't have to use mod-text to confirm this notion. This is the line of thought I have. Color identity and near-identical card-pool = the main reasons I'd keep discussion of potential UR "burn" decks here.

    Regarding that creatureless build above, I would agree that Snapcaster is an upgrade to the deck, even though it gives them a target for their removal. But for different reasons.

    If you want to play Thunderous Wrath - and lets face it, you do! - you need all the Brainstorms you can get. Four probably isn't enough, and Ponder just doesn't cut it (though it's still a necessary piece). Snapping back a Brainstorm to dig for relevant Burn and bury your Thunderous Wrath when it's the last card in your hand is vitally important. Otherwise they will sit in your hand more often than you'd like, I fear.

    Plus, the other points about Tiago are also quite relevant. Having a chump-blocking body means you don't have to aim Burn spells at the creature that's about to kill you. That means you can use those Burn spells to kill your opponent the next turn instead. 1UR for 3 damage and a 2/1 is probably not good enough to be played on its own, but it's close. But combine that with the ability to also sometimes be a 2/1 that Brainstorms for 1UR and it's probably one of the best cards in the deck, especially if you're playing conditional cards like Wrath, PoP, or the like.


    I agree with this in-full. These are some of the points I was trying to articulate. I'm in agreement (look at my post above) that you have to be certain your card/library manipulation is amazing to consider running Wraths. They are a very high gamble, as only brainstorm can put them from your hand --> make them a miracle again.

    @David Kaplan: I respectfully disagree. The body of snapcaster is entirely relevant. At worst he's going to recycle a spell + be a 2/1 flash. You lose too many lines of play keeping him out of the deck. DMel goes a very good job highlighting this point.


    EDIT: Moved to aggro after forum restructuring.
    -Warden
    Last edited by Warden: 4/26/2012 9:48:05 PM
    That which nourishes me, destroys me
    Former Legacy Mod :: Cube
    Quote from Samyueru

    I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
  • #204
    I guess I feel the addition of MD counters is a bigger difference than adding Delver and Brainstorm but I have no problem with discussion about a blue splash burn build going on here. I love more discussion in the thread about my favorite deck. It just seems like the focus of the deck is a little closer to Burn than UR Delver and input from that thread might be more helpful. I am an active poster in the Burn thread and there is plenty of accepted talk about blue, white and black splashes. It is certainly not an issue that I "gotta deal with" because it never bothered me and I wasn't trying to "kick" anyone out (nor was I under the impression that I could). If you enjoy finding things to get upset about then by all means, continue your rants. It did entertain me, especially the mod pseudo-threat.

    I initially thought that the point about Snapcaster being Brainstorm 5-8 for getting miracles out of your hand was brilliant but really it will rarely matter. You only need to deal with Thunderous Wrath in your opening hand. Unless you have 3+ in that hand the Brainstorm in your graveyard already did everything you need it to and further Brainstorms will rarely matter for Thunderous Wrath (unless miracle makes Brainstorm a spell to counter).

    As far as Snappy otherwise...I am testing well without him but he is far from bad in this deck.
    My collection (everything worth > $5)

    Standard: UWR
    Modern: RDW, Twin
    Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
    -Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
    -Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
    -Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
    Vintage: Grixis Painter
    EDH: Rith, the Awakener
  • #205
    The issue, though, is that you also need Brainstorms to shuffle away lands, and it's hard to both set up your Wraths and otherwise fix your hand with one single Brainstorm. I do see your point though, that as a predominately Burn style deck, we're only really concerned with getting rid of Wraths in our starting hand. Otherwise we'll just play them when we draw them. But regardless, I think the versatility of Snappy, plus his particular synergy with the deck, makes him the right call.

    Another thing not to forget is that he enables what I believe is the best graveyard-hosing strategy realistically available, which is 4 Surgical Extraction and 4 Snapcaster Mage. Without Snappy, Surgical just doesn't do enough against Dredge. Without Tiago I'd probably run Relic of Progenitus, but I'd rather strip the opposing deck of win-cons repeatedly.
    Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
    U Merfolk U
    U G W NO Bant U G W
    U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
    Other Legacy Decks I Own:
    R G W Zoo! R G W
    B G W Junk B G W
    R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
    B W Deadguy B W
    W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
    G W Green & Taxes G W
    B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
    EDH Generals/Decks:
    Glissa
    Momir Vig
    Brion Stoutarm
    Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
    Arcum Daggson
  • #206
    That does bring up something that I noticed in testing Thunderous Wrath...I would Brainstorm to put one on top but I also frequently wanted to fetch out a land to cast a Delver or a Guide or whatever and then felt like I had to wait so that I could cast the miracle spell. It seemed like it was usually worth it but it could be frustrating at times.
    My collection (everything worth > $5)

    Standard: UWR
    Modern: RDW, Twin
    Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
    -Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
    -Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
    -Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
    Vintage: Grixis Painter
    EDH: Rith, the Awakener
  • #207
    Quote from TRAMD
    That does bring up something that I noticed in testing Thunderous Wrath...I would Brainstorm to put one on top but I also frequently wanted to fetch out a land to cast a Delver or a Guide or whatever and then felt like I had to wait so that I could cast the miracle spell. It seemed like it was usually worth it but it could be frustrating at times.


    I have been looking at 2-for-1 functionality within cards (not to be confused with an actual 2-for-1 card) to compensate for this. At the moment I am still 'iffy' on Wrath for reasons you bring up. The upside is monstrous...but the frustrations and handcuffing is problematic enough to question lines of play. Of considerations, I have looked to Magma Jet > Ponder. It's by NO MEANS something I am advocating for -- but something I'm looking into. If I can deal damage AND scry, that's a tremendous synergy for the deck. Despite the 2cc cost, it serves the same "filter stuff" role of ponder while potentially killing off the opponent. Ponder is also a sorcery, so speed isn't an issue at all.

    In terms of actual 2-for-1 cards to run, I found some suggestions. Seeing my friend Greg (playing well with UR delver and RUG delver) this weekend was great. He advocates for forked bolt in the current environment. His argument was strong (a lot of the format is x/2 and x/1) but I'm not sure.
    Discussion with others also had us debating over stifle coming back to the deck. I prefer burn over tempo (with the argument burn is never dead to draw into).
    I was also able to hear Kenny Adam's argument against running Vexing Devil in the deck (told through Greg). The main issue is devil not sticking on the table. I believe devil is a pure upgrade over guide but Kenny would rather keep guide (haste, forces removal upon it, etc).
    That which nourishes me, destroys me
    Former Legacy Mod :: Cube
    Quote from Samyueru

    I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
  • #208
    Quote from Warden


    I have been looking at 2-for-1 functionality within cards (not to be confused with an actual 2-for-1 card) to compensate for this. At the moment I am still 'iffy' on Wrath for reasons you bring up. The upside is monstrous...but the frustrations and handcuffing is problematic enough to question lines of play. Of considerations, I have looked to Magma Jet > Ponder. It's by NO MEANS something I am advocating for -- but something I'm looking into. If I can deal damage AND scry, that's a tremendous synergy for the deck. Despite the 2cc cost, it serves the same "filter stuff" role of ponder while potentially killing off the opponent. Ponder is also a sorcery, so speed isn't an issue at all.

    In terms of actual 2-for-1 cards to run, I found some suggestions. Seeing my friend Greg (playing well with UR delver and RUG delver) this weekend was great. He advocates for forked bolt in the current environment. His argument was strong (a lot of the format is x/2 and x/1) but I'm not sure.
    Discussion with others also had us debating over stifle coming back to the deck. I prefer burn over tempo (with the argument burn is never dead to draw into).
    I was also able to hear Kenny Adam's argument against running Vexing Devil in the deck (told through Greg). The main issue is devil not sticking on the table. I believe devil is a pure upgrade over guide but Kenny would rather keep guide (haste, forces removal upon it, etc).


    I love Forked Bolt! I ran it as a 4-of in my standard deck the entire time it was legal and I run it as a 4-of in my Modern Sligh deck. The problem is that our deck is a bit more burn than sligh. The difference being that we will usually want to put burn to the skull. I am not saying that Forked Bolt is unplayable in this deck but maybe there are better options. It could definitely have some utility clearing a couple token blockers or even burning a MOM. I think it does warrant testing in any deck that would consider Lava Spike.

    I love Stifle. I consider going to 4 on a daily basis (I currently run 3). Getting an early fetchland is backbreaking. I also love stifling an equip or Jitte/Sword effect to keep someone from gaining life.

    I would never remove Guide but I think it and the devil can work well together. Guide turn 1 and devil turn 2 is a great play.

    EDIT: Warden, LOOVE the new avatar.
    My collection (everything worth > $5)

    Standard: UWR
    Modern: RDW, Twin
    Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
    -Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
    -Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
    -Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
    Vintage: Grixis Painter
    EDH: Rith, the Awakener
  • #209
    Quote from Warden


    I have been looking at 2-for-1 functionality within cards (not to be confused with an actual 2-for-1 card) to compensate for this. At the moment I am still 'iffy' on Wrath for reasons you bring up. The upside is monstrous...but the frustrations and handcuffing is problematic enough to question lines of play. Of considerations, I have looked to Magma Jet > Ponder. It's by NO MEANS something I am advocating for -- but something I'm looking into. If I can deal damage AND scry, that's a tremendous synergy for the deck. Despite the 2cc cost, it serves the same "filter stuff" role of ponder while potentially killing off the opponent. Ponder is also a sorcery, so speed isn't an issue at all.

    In terms of actual 2-for-1 cards to run, I found some suggestions. Seeing my friend Greg (playing well with UR delver and RUG delver) this weekend was great. He advocates for forked bolt in the current environment. His argument was strong (a lot of the format is x/2 and x/1) but I'm not sure.
    Discussion with others also had us debating over stifle coming back to the deck. I prefer burn over tempo (with the argument burn is never dead to draw into).
    I was also able to hear Kenny Adam's argument against running Vexing Devil in the deck (told through Greg). The main issue is devil not sticking on the table. I believe devil is a pure upgrade over guide but Kenny would rather keep guide (haste, forces removal upon it, etc).


    TRAMD's problem is exactly what I'm talking about with the necessity of Snapcaster, who also happens to be one of the best 2-for-1 cards (in both senses you use it) available.

    I don't like Magma Jet because it is significantly worse at flipping a Delver, which let's remember is probably the main reason to add Blue to the deck in the first place.

    But, just because we play Delver doesn't make us a Tempo deck. Which is why I'm not a huge fan of things like Forked Bolt in this deck. My response to a resolved Lingering Souls isn't to Forked Bolt both tokens and attack in... I'll lose this fight because they'll flashback Souls, and they play 4 Souls and I'd never play 4 Forked Bolt, as it's a Shock against many decks. My response with U/R Delver is to go over the top with Burn. That's why I want Bolt, Chain and Wrath as the burn spells.

    As for Delver, I think it's definitely something to test in the deck, probably in the Guide spot. The problem with playing both is that they each fill the same function (R=4 damage early), and if you have too many creatures Delver itself gets worse. You want to have a decent chance at blind-flipping Delver when need be. So, I'd test it, and see which card is giving you R=4 damage or more reliably.

    Finally, as to Stifle/Wasteland, I think Devil and Wrath give us the opportunity to try this, by replacing Price and Guide which don't work with the strategy. I'm looking forward to playing it because each card on its own (Stifle and Wasteland, that is) can steal a game all by itself. Sure, mana denial isn't exactly in line with a Burn strategy so much as a Tempo strategy, but at the same time, mana denial adversely affects almost every deck in Legacy. It also is easily supported by the mana base, and makes Daze that much better (of which I almost always play a full set despite whatever others are doing).
    Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
    U Merfolk U
    U G W NO Bant U G W
    U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
    Other Legacy Decks I Own:
    R G W Zoo! R G W
    B G W Junk B G W
    R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
    B W Deadguy B W
    W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
    G W Green & Taxes G W
    B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
    EDH Generals/Decks:
    Glissa
    Momir Vig
    Brion Stoutarm
    Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
    Arcum Daggson
  • #210
    Im going to SCG prov this weekend and going to run u/r delver. Not becuase it won the other week, I have acually been playing this deck for a cuple of months now.

    I am going with more of the tempo base. I would like to put some vexing devils in besides guides, or maybe another creautre. but for now this is the deck i have worked out. Im expecting some odd decks that "take adavantage" of mircle ability. I am also expecting lots of maveric, blade decks, RUG, (of course) and goblins or fish. i feel with the new land you will end up seeing lots of trible decks.



    one thing i would like advice on is the spell peirce/stifle and daze. i have 10 spells that counter/break tempo and it seems like it is too much.

    ill take suggestions.
    green mana :symg:Combo Elves:symg:
    :symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
    :symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
  • #211
    You probably know, goblin guide has synergy with price of progress.

    Wasteland, stifle do not have synergy with goblin guide and price of progress.
    Depending on the deck your opponent is playing as soon as he finds out your playing wasteland and price, he will basics to play around your strategy.

    I think you run stifle and wasteland, you drop POP and GG.
    If your run GG and POP you drop stifle and wasteland.

    I can see running up to 2 wastelands to eliminate troublesome utility lands. But burn is the win con in this deck, and fitting in tempo cards seems too cute.

    If you want an alternative to GG and POP there isn't much. You could run cosi trickster. In place of POP, searing blaze is fine as a 2 of.
    Legacy, like Rock and Roll, will never die Jam
  • #212
    Quote from rstevens416
    I am also expecting lots of maveric, blade decks, RUG, (of course) and goblins or fish. i feel with the new land you will end up seeing lots of trible decks.


    People going back to tribal decks namely gobs and fish will be unlikely, they already had aether vial before so being uncounterable via the new land don't mean much to them and they are still very much outclassed by maverick especially when it runs punishing fire.
    Quote from akiratheoni
    Eh, it's alright. Nothing too special I guess. I feel like this does literally nothing.

    Sword of feast and famine FAIL responses Tongue


    "How can we make a future if we don't try our hardest?"
    -Monkey D. Luffy

    Playing:

    EDH:
    B Oona, Queen of the Fae B
    BUG The Mimeoplasm GUB

    Legacy:
    UMerfolkU
    URU/R Delver RU
  • #213
    Hi guys,

    I''ve been following this thread for some time, since I'm gonna build this deck as soon as I get my last fetches.. I have a question regarding the number of lands to play.

    Many run 20 (4 volcanic, 12 fetch and 4 basic) but many run only 18.. Is there a reason for the decks having various numbers of lands? - any cards in particular where you need the extra or fewer lands?

    Thx!
  • #214
    Quote from TRAMD
    ...The difference being that we will usually want to put burn to the skull. I am not saying that Forked Bolt is unplayable in this deck but maybe there are better options. It could definitely have some utility clearing a couple token blockers or even burning a MOM. I think it does warrant testing in any deck that would consider Lava Spike.


    Totally agree with you. He's been having success with it in RUG Delver, but he's also got goyf to back up the aggro. For pure UR, this simply isn't an option.

    EDIT: Warden, LOOVE the new avatar.


    Lol thanks.

    Quote from DMel
    I don't like Magma Jet because it is significantly worse at flipping a Delver, which let's remember is probably the main reason to add Blue to the deck in the first place.


    Yes and no. Like I said, I'm just fooling around with the idea. However, the deck can be built to be considerably high % of spells. This would "balance out" through play more than paper shows. In turn, I would consider Magma Jet (hell, I could run it alongside ponders) because it's extra burn with a filter attached.

    But, just because we play Delver doesn't make us a Tempo deck. Which is why I'm not a huge fan of things like Forked Bolt in this deck. My response to a resolved Lingering Souls isn't to Forked Bolt both tokens and attack in... I'll lose this fight because they'll flashback Souls, and they play 4 Souls and I'd never play 4 Forked Bolt, as it's a Shock against many decks. My response with U/R Delver is to go over the top with Burn. That's why I want Bolt, Chain and Wrath as the burn spells.


    The logic I was told was not a card vs lingering souls but problematic x/1's and x/2's. Lingering Souls needs to be hit by surgical extraction -- by far the best solution to that card UR can run.


    Finally, as to Stifle/Wasteland, I think Devil and Wrath give us the opportunity to try this, by replacing Price and Guide which don't work with the strategy. I'm looking forward to playing it because each card on its own (Stifle and Wasteland, that is) can steal a game all by itself. Sure, mana denial isn't exactly in line with a Burn strategy so much as a Tempo strategy, but at the same time, mana denial adversely affects almost every deck in Legacy. It also is easily supported by the mana base, and makes Daze that much better (of which I almost always play a full set despite whatever others are doing).


    I would run price of progress > stifle every time. Years of legacy has taught me that abusing non-basics wins games. Wasteland has its merits, but the true winner is PoP. It's one of the deck's "oops I win" plays.

    Quote from rstevens416
    ....
    3 sergical extractions
    2 Sulfuric Vortex
    3 Smash to Smithereens
    3 force of will
    1 price of progress
    2 fire//ice
    1 pyroblast[/CARDS]
    ...ill take suggestions.


    Honestly, I'd run 4x Price of Progress. Card is nothing but backbreaking, especially in big venues where you'll see silly things (homebrews, crazy variants, etc).
    I wouldn't bother with Fire/Ice or Smash to Smithereens. Sulf Vortex is also an iffy call. For artifact hate, go with shattering spree -- because replicate fights through a wall of counterspells. Smash is too greedy imo.
    I'd also advocate for 4x Surgical just because it's the best sideboard card in the format -- especially alongside snapcaster (4 life = remove 7 to 8 cards from their deck? omg).
    **My darkhorse pick for the SB would be echoing truth. Handles reanimator, tokens, pain in the ass permanents, time-walks redundant aggro decks (ie; double goyf situations, etc). You can even bounce your snapcaster to cast him again + flashback more burn/PoP.

    EDIT: Flusterstorm is also handy to have as a 2-3x. The room would have to look more combo for me to run it. REB/Pyroblasts 3-4x would be solid should the room look blue.

    Quote from Ball Lightning
    You probably know, goblin guide has synergy with price of progress.

    Wasteland, stifle do not have synergy with goblin guide and price of progress.
    Depending on the deck your opponent is playing as soon as he finds out your playing wasteland and price, he will basics to play around your strategy.

    I think you run stifle and wasteland, you drop POP and GG.
    If your run GG and POP you drop stifle and wasteland.


    This. I would go with this package, which is brutal.
    That which nourishes me, destroys me
    Former Legacy Mod :: Cube
    Quote from Samyueru

    I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
  • #215
    Quote from Warden
    For artifact hate, go with shattering spree -- because replicate fights through a wall of counterspells. Smash is too greedy imo.

    I can see the reason in this, but I have a really good experience with Smash in my Burn deck, because it goes around Chalice of the Void with 1 counter on it.

    This UR delver deck plays even more 1cc spells (allmost only), so Chalice would be a certain win against this deck. + UR delver does have some countermagic to protect the Smash if needed.. And ofc the 3 dmg..

    Doesn't this count ?
  • #216
    Quote from ullern
    I can see the reason in this, but I have a really good experience with Smash in my Burn deck, because it goes around Chalice of the Void with 1 counter on it.

    This UR delver deck plays even more 1cc spells (allmost only), so Chalice would be a certain win against this deck. + UR delver does have some countermagic to protect the Smash if needed.. And ofc the 3 dmg..

    Doesn't this count ?


    A replicated Shattering Spree gets thru chalice @1.
  • #217
    Quote from Nantuko
    A replicated Shattering Spree gets thru chalice @1.

    Lol, how could I miss this..?
  • #218
    how did a replicated Shattering Spree gets thru chalice @1? replicate is like just making more copies of Shattering Spree which is 1cc...

    i'm thinking of something like this, slightly on the budget side.. what do you guys think?

    Creatures
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Vexing Devil
    1 Snapcaster Mage

    Instants
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Fireblast
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Price of Progress
    4 Thunderous Wrath
    3 Pyrokinesis

    Sorceries
    4 Chain Lightning
    4 Ponder

    Basic Lands
    2 Island
    4 Mountain

    Lands
    2 Arid Mesa
    2 Misty Rainforest
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Steam Vents
    Last edited by shiwei87tan: 5/4/2012 3:21:23 AM
  • #219
    Quote from shiwei87tan
    how did a replicated Shattering Spree gets thru chalice @1? replicate is like just making more copies of Shattering Spree which is 1cc...


    Yeah, but the copies aren't actually being cast but are just put onto the stack as...well, copies. Chalice however says ~Whenever a spell is being cast, it gets countered if it has the same CC as there are counters on Chalice. The original Shattering Spree will be countered by Chalice since it's actually being cast. However, the copies of Spree will get through.

    (mind you, that's just my understanding of the rules and I think it's quite accurate but maybe someone could confirm this)
    Quote from UNBAN SHAHRAZAD
    It's actually pretty balanced for all the power creep that's been going on. I was half expecting that this would cost 4 and give you a hand-job when it comes into play.
    Quote from aronijus
    Main wincon is Llanowar Elves.
    Quote from Dakhwon
    I don't think it's possible to underestimate Tibalt. He's horribly bad, and the decks that try to play him are bad. The only way to estimate him less than that would be to suggest that he'll give you herpes if you play him in your deck... and I wouldn't rule that out.
  • #220
    Yeah, but the copies aren't actually being cast but are just put onto the stack as...well, copies. Chalice however says ~Whenever a spell is being cast, it gets countered if it has the same CC as there are counters on Chalice. The original Shattering Spree will be countered by Chalice since it's actually being cast. However, the copies of Spree will get through.

    (mind you, that's just my understanding of the rules and I think it's quite accurate but maybe someone could confirm this)


    You are 100% correct.
    My collection (everything worth > $5)

    Standard: UWR
    Modern: RDW, Twin
    Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
    -Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
    -Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
    -Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
    Vintage: Grixis Painter
    EDH: Rith, the Awakener
  • #221
    Quote from Warden

    Yes and no. Like I said, I'm just fooling around with the idea. However, the deck can be built to be considerably high % of spells. This would "balance out" through play more than paper shows. In turn, I would consider Magma Jet (hell, I could run it alongside ponders) because it's extra burn with a filter attached.



    The logic I was told was not a card vs lingering souls but problematic x/1's and x/2's. Lingering Souls needs to be hit by surgical extraction -- by far the best solution to that card UR can run.



    I would run price of progress > stifle every time. Years of legacy has taught me that abusing non-basics wins games. Wasteland has its merits, but the true winner is PoP. It's one of the deck's "oops I win" plays.


    I'm just not a fan of wasting a turn 2 playing Magma Jet in a worse-percentage attempt to flip my turn 1 Delver (considering it's gonna be tough to get the deck to a point where it's far over half spells), when I could be using Ponder to dig farther and do it better for one mana, then use the second mana on another Delver, Guide, or Devil. Now, if you're talking running it alongside Ponder as like a 2-of, I'd be much more on board, but I still think 8 cantrips is enough and there are much, much better cards to run in its place.

    As far as Forked Bolt goes, my understanding has always been that it's great to clear out tiny blockers. Note that its use arose after the introduction of Lingering Souls to Legacy. Either way though, what are these troublesome x/1's? With this deck, since we're not tempo, I don't care about most x/1's because they are basically blockers, and once the opponent establishes blockers it's my queue to start burning their face to race them out. I guess Thalia is nice to kill, but it's not like they can have two Thalias out at once anyway, haha. And x/2's don't matter b/c at that point any other Burn is just as good. And don't get me started about Forked Bolt's application against x/3's, lol.

    Finally, PoP over Stifle I can definitely understand, I was just presenting the Stifle plan as another option, possibly buying us more time to win. But as a card that doesn't do damage or find cards that do damage, it probably isn't the right plan for the deck.

    The thing that bugs me about PoP is how completely dead it is against some (albeit not the most common) decks. That has me debating whether 2 or 3 is the right number.
    Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
    U Merfolk U
    U G W NO Bant U G W
    U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
    Other Legacy Decks I Own:
    R G W Zoo! R G W
    B G W Junk B G W
    R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
    B W Deadguy B W
    W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
    G W Green & Taxes G W
    B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
    EDH Generals/Decks:
    Glissa
    Momir Vig
    Brion Stoutarm
    Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
    Arcum Daggson
  • #222
    I played at a local tournament last night. I ran the list in my signature except I added 1 Scroll Rack for a Ponder

    Round 1: Goblins
    Burn his Lackey, burn his piledriver, burn his chieftain
    Win 2-0

    Round 2: Goblins
    Multiple top-decked lands in games 1 and 3 somehow failed to hold off the goblin horde.
    Game 2 I got scroll rack going and it worked quite well. I was able to use it to get some cards that I needed and dump cards I didn't then shuffle them away with fetches. I used it to set up a thunderous wrath by activating on my upkeep (scroll rack does not count as a draw).
    Lose 1-2

    Round 3: Maverick
    Game 2 Thalia shut me down but games 1 and 3 saw stifle and daze allow me to easily out tempo him.
    Win 2-1

    Round 4: Sneak and Show
    Somehow he had turn 2 Show and Tell into Emrakul with counter back-up FOUR GAMES IN A ROW. Yes, we played 2 extra games for fun and this happened on turn 2 every game. Ridiculous. Game 2 I was on the play and was actually able to beat down and had enough to kill him on turn 3 (sacrificing a brave Vexing Devil to Emrakul so two guides and a Delver could get through) but he countered my Fireblast... I could have won again in one of the fun games, as I was able to Stifle the annihilator trigger, if I'd top-decked a burn but I didn't. I guess I can't be too upset losing to such awesome draws.
    Lose 0-2

    Some conclusions:
    - Scroll Rack seems like a good card and might make miracles playable. Maybe even Reforge the Soul as a sideboard card against control.
    - Thunderous Wrath was a let down. It was a dead card in my opening hand four times. I only kept the hands because the rest was so good and would have been a keep on a mull to 6. I would have usually preferred a Lava Spike. I never seemed to have it and Brainstorm at the same time, however. I only cast it for it's miracle cost twice; once by luck and once by placing it there with Scroll Rack. I think it warrants some more testing but it is not looking good.
    - Vexing Devil is awesome. He was consistently good. People agonize over him. He was always good as a 4 damage burn and usually good as a creature. I counter their removal that they thought was going to save them from this beast. I never did the Stifle his trigger thing to just keep him but I am not sure that would be good anyways. I don't know that all lists should run him but more burn oriented lists such as mine surely should.
    My collection (everything worth > $5)

    Standard: UWR
    Modern: RDW, Twin
    Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
    -Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
    -Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
    -Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
    Vintage: Grixis Painter
    EDH: Rith, the Awakener
  • #223
    IMO, if you're running 2+ Thunderous Wrath, run 4 Brainstorm and 3-4 Ponder. I've generally found my 3 Thunderous Wraths to be reliable Lava Axes with that cantrip suite.

    Thunderous Wrath probably fits in the same deckbuilding slot as the similarly slightly annoying Fireblast (I don't always have 2 Mountains when I play this deck).
  • #224
    Once again, Ponder can help you find a Brainstorm but otherwise does very little to make Thunderous Wrath better.

    How about Noxious Revival? The standard version of the deck has been running it more and more. Once you have a Thunderous Wrath in your graveyard you can just cast it again with this card. It can also get back Delvers or Bolts or anything that you might want to try casting again. It can also help flip a Delver.

    EDIT: Something like this:

    TRAMD's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    Creatures (14)
    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Delver of Secrets
    3 Vexing Devil
    3 Snapcaster Mage

    Blue Spells (13)
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Spell Pierce
    3 Daze
    3 Stifle

    Red Spells (12)
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    2 Thunderous Wrath
    2 Price of Progress

    Other Spells (3)
    3 Noxious Revival

    Land (18)
    2 Mountain
    2 Island
    3 Volcanic Island
    4 Scalding Tarn
    2 Misty Rainforest
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Bloodstained Mire
    3 Arid Mesa

    Last edited by TRAMD: 5/12/2012 7:38:27 AM
    My collection (everything worth > $5)

    Standard: UWR
    Modern: RDW, Twin
    Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
    -Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
    -Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
    -Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
    Vintage: Grixis Painter
    EDH: Rith, the Awakener
  • #225
    What is Stifle for in this list? I know it's incredibly versatile, but without Wasteland it seems underwhelming when it could be Burn.

    Also, if you're going "all in" with Noxious Revival, why not have 4 Thunderous Wraths? Not that Revival helps with additional Wraths, but the Revivals don't seem great with your other cards so you should probably be looking to find one. Plus, one Brainstorm can fix two Wraths, so you're really only stuck with one if you see zero Brainstorms and it was in your opening hand, or you have three in your opening hand and only see one Brainstorm and no Snapcasters. And even there, you're only stuck with one dead card in hand. So, I'm going to stick with at least three, but probably four Wraths.

    I'm not sold on Revival though. As far as card disadvantage goes, I'd rather play Force than Revival, and I certainly wouldn't play both together.

    edit: Anyone ever try 2 or so Jace, TMS's? I know four mana is a lot, but it gives you another Brainstorm effect, some late-game gas, and another potential win-con.
    Last edited by dmel: 5/12/2012 5:22:48 PM
    Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
    U Merfolk U
    U G W NO Bant U G W
    U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
    Other Legacy Decks I Own:
    R G W Zoo! R G W
    B G W Junk B G W
    R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
    B W Deadguy B W
    W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
    G W Green & Taxes G W
    B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
    EDH Generals/Decks:
    Glissa
    Momir Vig
    Brion Stoutarm
    Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
    Arcum Daggson
  • #226
    Quote from DMel
    What is Stifle for in this list? I know it's incredibly versatile, but without Wasteland it seems underwhelming when it could be Burn.

    Also, if you're going "all in" with Noxious Revival, why not have 4 Thunderous Wraths? Not that Revival helps with additional Wraths, but the Revivals don't seem great with your other cards so you should probably be looking to find one. Plus, one Brainstorm can fix two Wraths, so you're really only stuck with one if you see zero Brainstorms and it was in your opening hand, or you have three in your opening hand and only see one Brainstorm and no Snapcasters. And even there, you're only stuck with one dead card in hand. So, I'm going to stick with at least three, but probably four Wraths.

    I'm not sold on Revival though. As far as card disadvantage goes, I'd rather play Force than Revival, and I certainly wouldn't play both together.

    edit: Anyone ever try 2 or so Jace, TMS's? I know four mana is a lot, but it gives you another Brainstorm effect, some late-game gas, and another potential win-con.


    The above list isn't that great. I've gone back to the list in my signature. Thunderous Wrath was underwhelming so I cut it. Noxious Revival is bad for the reasons you described.

    Stifle is an amazing card. It has single-handedly won me multiple games. Some examples of times where it saved me big time:

    One time I stifled a(n) __________ and then won the game.
    - First land fetch
    - Second land fetch
    - Stoneforge tutor
    - Stoneforge Vial
    - Equip of Jitte
    - Emrakul annihilator
    - Mom activation
    - Knight otR activation
    - Goblin Ringleader ETB trigger
    - Aether Vial activation
    - Goblin Lackey trigger
    - Storm on Tendrils
    - Chrome Mox ETB effect
    - Pact of the Titan game loss trigger
    - Grim Lavamancer Activation

    Many of these have came up more than once. Most of them could not have been done with Spell Pierce. The best use is probably the fetch land Stifle. I have never lost a game where I stifled a turn 1 fetch.

    I highly encourage you to test out the card. It is a great card that is rightly feared by many decks.
    My collection (everything worth > $5)

    Standard: UWR
    Modern: RDW, Twin
    Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
    -Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
    -Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
    -Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
    Vintage: Grixis Painter
    EDH: Rith, the Awakener
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