The sideboard is the toughest part of playing Delver, I think. There are so many good options.
I would approach the sideboard this way: what are the decks we can't beat?
What are our toughest matchups?
Dredge
Sneak and Show
Pure Aggro (Burn and Zoo)
I'd be interested to hear what you all think are our worst matchups.
For me it's those decks, so I'd build the board like this:
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Force of Will (2 already in main)
2x Earthquake (this is my pet card for this deck. always surprising!)
4x Elemental Blasts (Red or Blue)
2x Submerge
1x Sulfuric Vortex
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My current constructed decks: Legacy: Shardless BUG, Death and Taxes, Infect Modern: Infect, TarmoTwin
For this deck I would say we lose hard to faster Aggro such as Affinity, Burn, and RUG. After that Dreadstill since we have no way to remove the Dreadnaughts and their Standstills provide them with enough advantage to remove our threats
Combo is a problem, but counterspells and sideboard hate make the match-up a lot easier
Pyrostatic Pillar helps against some of the really bad match-ups (mainly thinking RUG, High Tide, and Affinity)
How is the D&T match-up?
I am also, taking this deck to Worcester for the Open
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Modern:
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget I stream!
The elemetnal blast may make their way in. it makes sense because it shuts down both the sneak and the show of sneak and show and it helps stop most creatures in reanimater.
Sideboard options are a good subject to talk about - so I'll chime in with a few thoughts as well
Personally, if I'm expecting a lot of reanimator/dredge/nic fit I'll go with Grafdigger's Cage over the Crypt, Relic or Fairies. For combo, Pyrostatic Pillar is an obvious choice and I'd like to give Mindbreak trap more playtesting as it seems to work well against combo/storm decks. I don't know if I really believe this yet, but I've seen some very successful lists run them, so obviously some people are making it work.
I think Surgical Extraction is great - pretty much against everything but especially strong against enchantress and high tide.
Affinity could be dealt with using Shattering Spree, which I personally like over other artifact removal. Pyroblast is almost a must....
Price of Progress is amazing against 90% of the field (personally I'd have them main boarded, but that's just me) - Ditto with Force of Will.
im doing some tests on MWS, and the interaction between Thunderous Wrath and Noxious Revival is insane!
With both its 10 POINTS OF DAMAGE!!! i added a pair of each in my list and is doing a great job.
I'm a little disappointed with snapcaster. sometimes he shines, but a lot of times he just sit on my hand because the lack of a 3rd land. Dont know what to put on his slot, maybe Vexing Devil, some ideas?
I also like Engineered Explosives, but I'm worried it's too reactive. U/R Delver is mainly an aggro deck with some disruption, and I feel like I'm playing too defensive if I play Engineered Explosives.
Is it there for the Counterbalances and Tarmogoyfs, mainly?
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My current constructed decks: Legacy: Shardless BUG, Death and Taxes, Infect Modern: Infect, TarmoTwin
When Lingering Soul's became a thing I wanted something different than Sulfur elemental as I felt it was too narrow. Engineered Explosives seemed like a good choice. It would have been 1 mana less to play and activate.
I also felt that it had broader applications, being able to hit Tarmogoyf or Nimble mongoose is strong.
We generally would like to use our burn straight to the dome, and EE gives us the ability to 2 for 1. Against Maverick sulfur elemental usually ends up beefing up the knights of the reliquary 1 power. EE can hit Mom, noble hierarch.
EE has the benefit of hitting unpredictables like Counterbalance, Chalice of the void, it can hit tokens which can help against certain storm strategies and dredge.
EE is one of those cards that most opponents don't expect to deal with.
Do you think a card like Phyrexian Revoker has any place in the sideboard? We would only bring it in against combo. Naming Hive Mind, Candelabra, Tendrils, Sneak/Show, etc. could be just enough disruption with a 2/1 body. Obviously it's terrible against the Zoo colors, who are all running Forked Bolt, it seems.
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My current constructed decks: Legacy: Shardless BUG, Death and Taxes, Infect Modern: Infect, TarmoTwin
Revoker doesn't stop Hive Mind, Tendrils, or Show and Tell since those are Triggered Abilities, not Activated Abilities (except Show and Tell, which is just a spell effect). Revoker does work against Sneak Attack and Candlabra, but it won't beat either deck as Show and Tell is probably enough and High Tide can win without candles woth some tight play.
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Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
Level 2 Judge
Legacy Decks:
- Deadguy Ale WB
- Imperial Bloodwolf R
- Rifter RW
- Rockman WBG
- Burn R
- T.E.S. WUBRG
- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
So I have been testing my UR Build, so far against Tier 1 decks (faced Maverick and Mirror) the deck is very solid, I lost to Maverick due to Choke, which tells me I should replace my thorn with Chain Of Vapor for my board
Mirror, Thunderous Wrath and Magma Jet are amazing
I also, lost to Food Chain, but I did keep a 5 land hand
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Modern:
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget I stream!
No one's been playing Thunderous Wrath. That either means it's un-good or it's untested. I'm still not sure which. On paper it looks good, but I don't think people like conditional cards.
Gilded Drakes are mostly for Show and Tell I believe. It's becoming a serious metagame presence, probably due to power, short games and ease of use.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
I went to a large 65 person tourtment on saturaday and got my goods handed to me. round 1 and 2 i faced esper blade. I ended up punting game 3 against the first one and won against the second one. Third round i played RUG which in game 3 I had him to 1 and just needed to rip a bolt but i didnt see it. Round 4 i lost to burn (a bad one at that) how my deck was built it was a really bad match up.
I ran 3 tunderous wraths and 3 Noxious revivals but with 4 brainstrom and 1 ponder and came up with a concensious. Thunderous wrath is good, noxious revival is not. Noxious revial makes you seem it would acually be good in burn, not UR delver. NR just makes you feel like you should put TW on top and rip it for 5, but when that was acually the wrong play. My deck was more burn orinated with only 3 spell peirce.
This week is SCG Worcester and im going to play a UR delver deck, but with more controll, IE daze (1), FOW(3), and 3 spell peirce. The burny version of the deck gets you there 85% of the way, then you jsut fizzle and topdeck stuff u dont need.
I have tested 2 Thunderous Wrath and have found the card to be nuts most of the time, against Spiral Tide, after casting their Time Spiral, they almost lost because I could hard cast Wrath for 2 lands, luckily they had counter back up
Against every other match I found it not only to be nuts, but it plus a delver flip = win and this happens a lot thanks to brainstorm
Only deck I kinda did not want to miracle against is SnT because they main Misdirection, but since this deck can either go control or burn, I can make them waste 2 cards for 1
Overall TW is very good and worst case after miracle is it feeds lavamancer, although I find TW to be better in a Counter Burn build, than a straight Burn build
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Modern:
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget I stream!
I have tested 2 Thunderous Wrath and have found the card to be nuts most of the time, against Spiral Tide, after casting their Time Spiral, they almost lost because I could hard cast Wrath for 2 lands, luckily they had counter back up
Against every other match I found it not only to be nuts, but it plus a delver flip = win and this happens a lot thanks to brainstorm
Only deck I kinda did not want to miracle against is SnT because they main Misdirection, but since this deck can either go control or burn, I can make them waste 2 cards for 1
Overall TW is very good and worst case after miracle is it feeds lavamancer, although I find TW to be better in a Counter Burn build, than a straight Burn build
I think this makes sense, I'm currently playtesting 2 TW's as well but I haven't played it enough to come up with a general consensus. At worst, it's a dead card in your opening hand until you find a brainstorm, and at best it's 5 to the dome for one freaking mana which is just absurd. I don't think I would ever play more than 2, getting multiples in your opening hand wouldn't be very good at all.
I've also seen a few decklists main decking 1-2 and having very good results. The issue is I don't know if that's because TW has been netting them wins or if they're playing well in spite of it. I think we'll need to wait a couple of months before we really know how much the new set has affected this archetype (Vexing Devil is another great card that isn't being discussed, at least as much as TW is).
I played the deck I posted above a few times today and I was left wanting a few more counters. I might up the Dazes. I'm not sold on the Grim Lavamancers. Gotta play more though.
I played the deck I posted above a few times today and I was left wanting a few more counters. I might up the Dazes. I'm not sold on the Grim Lavamancers. Gotta play more though.
Thanks for the thoughts on TW.
I thought I was in the minority, as I also don't really like the Lavamancer.... Ive seen it in almost every decklist posted - usually 3x of, but for me I'd rather just fill that spot with burn or counter backup.
Im not even that big of a fan of the snapcaster, sure there's times he's brilliant and other times he feels like a dead card where you need 3 mana to cast anything useful. I don't know, he just feels too "tricksie" for me and it's not enough. Recently I've been trying a creature base of 4x Delver, 4x Vexing Devil and 4x Goblin Guide and I am really enjoying it....
I still need to play with TW more - so I can't comment enough apart from what I said above.
How many counters are you currently playing with? I'm using 3x Spell Pierce, 3x FoW and 1 Daze at the moment.... I haven't decided if this is the right number yet as I too have been thinking of upping the Daze count to 2 or maybe even 3. The problem with Daze and Pierce are they aren't half as useful after the first 3 or so turns and are a terrible top deck late game when you just need a burn spell to finish off your opponent. Because of that Im actually going with the 8 bolts and 4 PoP (my God this card is so good - single handedly wins games by itself).
Still some tweaks to iron out of my personal deck, mainly if TW should be replaced and if my creature base is correct (I may try two snapcasters, 4 is certainly too much for my taste) but we'll see during the next tourney which is the middle of June!
I acually just took my list and droped both the daze (my only one) and a grim lavamancer (now only having 2) from it. I added fire//ice which is acaully really good. It can 2-for-1 and opponents creature, tap something down, to by you another turn or allows that delver or guide to get them into bolt range. I have always been up and down about this card but my current opnion is that i like it. In a worse case senario you can always pitch it to FOW and not feel too bad like that poor brainstorm or ponder.
I acually just took my list and droped both the daze (my only one) and a grim lavamancer (now only having 2) from it. I added fire//ice which is acaully really good. It can 2-for-1 and opponents creature, tap something down, to by you another turn or allows that delver or guide to get them into bolt range. I have always been up and down about this card but my current opnion is that i like it. In a worse case senario you can always pitch it to FOW and not feel too bad like that poor brainstorm or ponder.
Fire/Ice is a really nice card (I remember playing these in standard, boy I feel old) I think it's very versatile and as you said allows you to pitch it to FoW if you really need it. Plus anything that is a cantrip I really like - I guess you could say I have a soft spot for it.
That said, right now Im running TW instead of Fire/Ice, I guess mostly for testing purposes. I just simply won't have room otherwise to fit in all the core cards I want to use.
As for the Vexing Devil, personally I love him. Early he's R for 4 damage to the dome OR he's a 4/3 creature. Both of these for 1 mana is fantastic IMO, even with the "browbeat" trigger. Obviously, there's times you'd rather they take the damage and other times you wish they'd let the creature stick - but unlike browbeat it a) Costs only one mana and b) Both options are generally bad for your opponent. If Vexing Devil was R1 or something similar there's no way I'd be interested, but in my current deck all the creatures Im running are 1 drops so it almost guarantee I put pressure on my opponent early. He's also the 3rd choice in the pecking order, with GG being 1st and Delver being 2nd in order of priority.
In addition, there's many times I've played Vexing Devil and my opponent tried to take him out next turn, only to be stopped by a Daze or Spell Pierce (the look of horror on their face afterwards is rather fun to watch) He's just a beast for 1 mana and if they take the damage that's really not a problem for me. There's only a few times I wished he was another card and very rarely would I wish he was a lavamancer or snapcaster (more so on the latter but that's almost always in the late game when I could afford the flashback on a key spell).
I should note, I only play with 18 lands, so my mana curve is VERY tight - most all my spells are 1 casting cost with a couple of exceptions... which is also why I prefer the devil over say, the Snapcaster (which is generally 3 cc before it can be used effectively). Definitely warrants more playtesting though.... as I've only been using the Devil exclusively for a couple weeks now.
Do you run FoW, Valkyries? If so, how many blue cards do you run? About the only reason I keep Tiago in my UR Delver list is because I like FoW too much (I want positive combo match-ups, dang it), and I need the > 16 blue cards.
I REALLY REALLY want to find room for Earthquake or Bonfire of the Damned, but I just don't know where to put it. Probably in the sideboard. Obviously everyone's metagame is a little different, but Earthquake is serious gas against Maverick/Burn/Mongooses/etc.
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My current constructed decks: Legacy: Shardless BUG, Death and Taxes, Infect Modern: Infect, TarmoTwin
I think this makes sense, I'm currently playtesting 2 TW's as well but I haven't played it enough to come up with a general consensus. At worst, it's a dead card in your opening hand until you find a brainstorm, and at best it's 5 to the dome for one freaking mana which is just absurd. I don't think I would ever play more than 2, getting multiples in your opening hand wouldn't be very good at all.
I've also seen a few decklists main decking 1-2 and having very good results. The issue is I don't know if that's because TW has been netting them wins or if they're playing well in spite of it. I think we'll need to wait a couple of months before we really know how much the new set has affected this archetype (Vexing Devil is another great card that isn't being discussed, at least as much as TW is).
TW is at most a 2 of, feels great to both topdeck and and get a delver flip out of it
The card itself won't net you a win, but the Lava Axe for R speeds up the deck by a turn and allows you to hold onto a Bolt or Chain Lightning for creature removal
I thought I was in the minority, as I also don't really like the Lavamancer.... Ive seen it in almost every decklist posted - usually 3x of, but for me I'd rather just fill that spot with burn or counter backup.
Im not even that big of a fan of the snapcaster, sure there's times he's brilliant and other times he feels like a dead card where you need 3 mana to cast anything useful. I don't know, he just feels too "tricksie" for me and it's not enough. Recently I've been trying a creature base of 4x Delver, 4x Vexing Devil and 4x Goblin Guide and I am really enjoying it....
I still need to play with TW more - so I can't comment enough apart from what I said above.
How many counters are you currently playing with? I'm using 3x Spell Pierce, 3x FoW and 1 Daze at the moment.... I haven't decided if this is the right number yet as I too have been thinking of upping the Daze count to 2 or maybe even 3. The problem with Daze and Pierce are they aren't half as useful after the first 3 or so turns and are a terrible top deck late game when you just need a burn spell to finish off your opponent. Because of that Im actually going with the 8 bolts and 4 PoP (my God this card is so good - single handedly wins games by itself).
Still some tweaks to iron out of my personal deck, mainly if TW should be replaced and if my creature base is correct (I may try two snapcasters, 4 is certainly too much for my taste) but we'll see during the next tourney which is the middle of June!
Taking my list to the Open this weekend (as soon as my dang Arid Mesas come in), I have found Snapcaster Mage more often than not to either be a beat stick and a brainstorm or pitched to FoW, both made me realize he needs to stay in as worst case he trades with something or beats for 2
My build is more focused on Mid-Range playing Control up until the point I can go very aggressive against my opponent
Vexing Devil is quite bad TBH, he is never what you want him to be and if he is your opponent will have an answer to it immediately, I would say to include him only in a Control build over Lavamancer, but even then Lavamancer is much better even if he doesn't stick on the board for very long
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Modern:
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget I stream!
Lands:
3x Volcanic Island (No more cash for another)
3x Mountain
2x Island
4x Scalding Tarn
1x Polluted delta
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Misty Rainforest
1x Flooded Strand
I've been testing it for a few weeks and it's going pretty well, the worsts machups have been vs Dragon stompies.
What do you think about my list?
Personally I wouldn't run a 1 of for Vexing Devil, it's one of those "go big or go home" cards. In your deck, I probably wouldn't play any unless you want to cut other creature cards instead. Also, I really don't like Fireblast in this deck. I have trouble getting 2 mountains consistently to begin with, let alone being able to pay for 2 Fireblasts. Plus, if it's countered or something - you're without red mana which I just don't like in this decktype. Don't get me wrong, this card is AWESOME.... I play a lot of burn decks too, so I know all about how absolutely fantastic this card is, I just don't like it here.... just my opinion, others play with it and do very well, so take it with a grain of salt
Do you run FoW, Valkyries? If so, how many blue cards do you run? About the only reason I keep Tiago in my UR Delver list is because I like FoW too much (I want positive combo match-ups, dang it), and I need the > 16 blue cards.
I absolutely do! I love FoW, it's one of my favorite cards, well, ever.... funny, I remember when they first came out, opening packs of Alliances thinking "wow this card is great". We played with them back then too but they were worth about $4 a pop - I still have a hard time fathoming how much they are actually worth lol. Some people don't like them in this deck because of the card disadvantage, and mostly, they are right. Spell Pierce I've found is just as good 90% of the time.... but you know what? I refuse to lose to Belcher or other fast combo decks on turn one before I even get a chance to play a land.... so I'll never play a blue deck without 3+ FoW's. Maybe Im stubborn and/or old fashioned, but I can always find a place for one of the best blue cards ever printed.
TW is at most a 2 of, feels great to both topdeck and and get a delver flip out of it
The card itself won't net you a win, but the Lava Axe for R speeds up the deck by a turn and allows you to hold onto a Bolt or Chain Lightning for creature removal
Agreed, I'm also running 2 and finding it pretty solid.... Im not 100% sold yet, but it has some serious potential when you can knock off 1/4th your opponents life for one mana.
Taking my list to the Open this weekend (as soon as my dang Arid Mesas come in), I have found Snapcaster Mage more often than not to either be a beat stick and a brainstorm or pitched to FoW, both made me realize he needs to stay in as worst case he trades with something or beats for 2
As I stated originally, I knew my choice to omit Snapcaster (and Lavamancer for that matter) would be disagreed with by most, and I can completely see where you are coming from. But personally, I don't run him for the same reason I don't run Lavamancers - I just find they're too slow for my liking. You really need 3 CC before snapcasters become relevant, unless you really want to play a 2/1 flash creature for 2 but I'm sure you'll agree that's very meh.
Vexing Devil is quite bad TBH, he is never what you want him to be and if he is your opponent will have an answer to it immediately, I would say to include him only in a Control build over Lavamancer, but even then Lavamancer is much better even if he doesn't stick on the board for very long
It's really not... I'd encourage you to playtest it more - as it just came out I would assume you haven't played with it very much. On the surface, it looks like Browbeat and we all know that's a very sub-optimal card.... but when you play with it, you'll understand the anguish your opponent will have everytime he's played
18 land (10 fetch, 3 Volcanic, 3 Island, 2 Mountain)
Theres 3 slots that Im tinkering with... which are currently the 2 Thunderous Wrath and a 4th Spell Pierce/FoW/2nd Daze (I've been rotating them out trying to find a nice combination). I Also wouldn't mind trying Fire/Ice in this slot - I'm honestly not too sure yet as I need more testing (I do software QA in real life - so I'm kind of a research nut)
One important note I almost forgot, there's 20 blue cards in this deck, and 22 if I end up including Fire/Ice. Rarely ever have problems with FoW fodder, even without the snapcaster mage. Again, I completely understand why people run him -- he's certainly a good card and most all successful decks I've seen run him too but he's not my personal taste.
I don't claim to be an expert on this deck (though I've been playing and toying with it for a while), the only thing I can say is I like the way mine runs. Lots of people choose different card choices and that works for them - but this more or less works for me (minus a handfull of cards Im still playing with). Of course, I always change up my deck on a regular basis, playing different cards and trying to find what works best in most situation. I have very few issues with resources and I can generally play well against almost anything I run up against, so I'm liking the direction so far. As always though, thoughts/comments are welcome
As I stated originally, I knew my choice to omit Snapcaster (and Lavamancer for that matter) would be disagreed with by most, and I can completely see where you are coming from. But personally, I don't run him for the same reason I don't run Lavamancers - I just find they're too slow for my liking. You really need 3 CC before snapcasters become relevant, unless you really want to play a 2/1 flash creature for 2 but I'm sure you'll agree that's very meh.
It's really not... I'd encourage you to playtest it more - as it just came out I would assume you haven't played with it very much. On the surface, it looks like Browbeat and we all know that's a very sub-optimal card.... but when you play with it, you'll understand the anguish your opponent will have everytime he's played
It is hard for the deck to typically reach enough power to use Snapcaster, but still I find him useful in the deck as worst case he can be flashed as a blocker or pitched to FoW
I haven't tested Devil much, but when I was first building the deck really considered using him, then I just saw the way my build was going and knew even if he is amazing in the deck he can't fit in my build
18 land (10 fetch, 3 Volcanic, 3 Island, 2 Mountain)
I also have 3 spare slots that Im tinkering with... which are currently 2 Thunderous Wrath and a 4th Spell Pierce/FoW/Daze (I've been rotating them out trying to find a nice combination). I Also wouldn't mind trying Fire/Ice in this slot - I'm honestly not too sure yet as I need more testing (I do software QA in real life - so I'm kind of a research nut)
One important note I almost forgot, there's 19 blue cards in this deck, and 22 if I end up including Fire/Ice. Rarely ever have problems with FoW fodder, even without the snapcaster mage. Again, I completely understand why people run him -- he's certainly a good card and most all successful decks I've seen run him too but he's not my personal taste.
I don't claim to be an expert on this deck (though I've been playing and toying with it for a while), the only thing I can say is I like the way mine runs. Lots of people choose different card choices and that works for them - but this more or less works for me (minus a handfull of cards Im still playing with). Of course, I always change up my deck on a regular basis, playing different cards and trying to find what works best in most situation. I have very few issues with resources and I can generally play well against almost anything I run up against, so I'm liking the direction so far. As always though, thoughts/comments are welcome
P.S Sorry for the wall of text
A choice I have been tinkering successfully with (since I only have 1 Chain Lightning for now) is Magma Jet, typically used as spot removal for some annoying creature on board like a Guide or Mom, but the scry 2 helps a lot for consistency
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Modern:
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget I stream!
I would approach the sideboard this way: what are the decks we can't beat?
What are our toughest matchups?
Dredge
Sneak and Show
Pure Aggro (Burn and Zoo)
I'd be interested to hear what you all think are our worst matchups.
For me it's those decks, so I'd build the board like this:
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Force of Will (2 already in main)
2x Earthquake (this is my pet card for this deck. always surprising!)
4x Elemental Blasts (Red or Blue)
2x Submerge
1x Sulfuric Vortex
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Death and Taxes, Infect
Modern: Infect, TarmoTwin
Combo is a problem, but counterspells and sideboard hate make the match-up a lot easier
Pyrostatic Pillar helps against some of the really bad match-ups (mainly thinking RUG, High Tide, and Affinity)
How is the D&T match-up?
I am also, taking this deck to Worcester for the Open
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo:
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
Personally, if I'm expecting a lot of reanimator/dredge/nic fit I'll go with Grafdigger's Cage over the Crypt, Relic or Fairies. For combo, Pyrostatic Pillar is an obvious choice and I'd like to give Mindbreak trap more playtesting as it seems to work well against combo/storm decks. I don't know if I really believe this yet, but I've seen some very successful lists run them, so obviously some people are making it work.
I think Surgical Extraction is great - pretty much against everything but especially strong against enchantress and high tide.
Affinity could be dealt with using Shattering Spree, which I personally like over other artifact removal. Pyroblast is almost a must....
Price of Progress is amazing against 90% of the field (personally I'd have them main boarded, but that's just me) - Ditto with Force of Will.
So many choices, so few slots
2x Engineered Explosives
2x Smash to Smithereens
4x Pyroblast
1x Hydroblast
2x Submerge
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Tormod's Crypt
In my meta there is the usual uspects of Maverick, RUG tempo, sneak show, stoneblade and lots of combo. Dredge, elves, storm...
With both its 10 POINTS OF DAMAGE!!! i added a pair of each in my list and is doing a great job.
I'm a little disappointed with snapcaster. sometimes he shines, but a lot of times he just sit on my hand because the lack of a 3rd land. Dont know what to put on his slot, maybe Vexing Devil, some ideas?
Is it there for the Counterbalances and Tarmogoyfs, mainly?
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Death and Taxes, Infect
Modern: Infect, TarmoTwin
I also felt that it had broader applications, being able to hit Tarmogoyf or Nimble mongoose is strong.
We generally would like to use our burn straight to the dome, and EE gives us the ability to 2 for 1. Against Maverick sulfur elemental usually ends up beefing up the knights of the reliquary 1 power. EE can hit Mom, noble hierarch.
EE has the benefit of hitting unpredictables like Counterbalance, Chalice of the void, it can hit tokens which can help against certain storm strategies and dredge.
EE is one of those cards that most opponents don't expect to deal with.
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Death and Taxes, Infect
Modern: Infect, TarmoTwin
Afro Dave, @st4rwind on Twitter
Level 2 Judge
Legacy Decks:
- Imperial Bloodwolf R
- Rifter RW
- Rockman WBG
- Burn R
- T.E.S. WUBRG
- Belcher RG
- 10 Land Stompy G
- Zoo (budget) RGW
Mirror, Thunderous Wrath and Magma Jet are amazing
I also, lost to Food Chain, but I did keep a 5 land hand
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
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Hermit Druid Combo:
Glenn Jones just Top 8'd at this weeks SCG Legacy Open with the following list.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=46652
Looks pretty standard based on the pages of this thread I've read (i'll admit I didn't read every page).
He's got 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder but no Thunderous Wrath. Perhaps he knows something?
What are the Gilded Drakes in the SB for? I guess against reanimator decks?
Gilded Drakes are mostly for Show and Tell I believe. It's becoming a serious metagame presence, probably due to power, short games and ease of use.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
I ran 3 tunderous wraths and 3 Noxious revivals but with 4 brainstrom and 1 ponder and came up with a concensious. Thunderous wrath is good, noxious revival is not. Noxious revial makes you seem it would acually be good in burn, not UR delver. NR just makes you feel like you should put TW on top and rip it for 5, but when that was acually the wrong play. My deck was more burn orinated with only 3 spell peirce.
This week is SCG Worcester and im going to play a UR delver deck, but with more controll, IE daze (1), FOW(3), and 3 spell peirce. The burny version of the deck gets you there 85% of the way, then you jsut fizzle and topdeck stuff u dont need.
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
Against every other match I found it not only to be nuts, but it plus a delver flip = win and this happens a lot thanks to brainstorm
Only deck I kinda did not want to miracle against is SnT because they main Misdirection, but since this deck can either go control or burn, I can make them waste 2 cards for 1
Overall TW is very good and worst case after miracle is it feeds lavamancer, although I find TW to be better in a Counter Burn build, than a straight Burn build
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
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Hermit Druid Combo:
I think this makes sense, I'm currently playtesting 2 TW's as well but I haven't played it enough to come up with a general consensus. At worst, it's a dead card in your opening hand until you find a brainstorm, and at best it's 5 to the dome for one freaking mana which is just absurd. I don't think I would ever play more than 2, getting multiples in your opening hand wouldn't be very good at all.
I've also seen a few decklists main decking 1-2 and having very good results. The issue is I don't know if that's because TW has been netting them wins or if they're playing well in spite of it. I think we'll need to wait a couple of months before we really know how much the new set has affected this archetype (Vexing Devil is another great card that isn't being discussed, at least as much as TW is).
Thanks for the thoughts on TW.
I thought I was in the minority, as I also don't really like the Lavamancer.... Ive seen it in almost every decklist posted - usually 3x of, but for me I'd rather just fill that spot with burn or counter backup.
Im not even that big of a fan of the snapcaster, sure there's times he's brilliant and other times he feels like a dead card where you need 3 mana to cast anything useful. I don't know, he just feels too "tricksie" for me and it's not enough. Recently I've been trying a creature base of 4x Delver, 4x Vexing Devil and 4x Goblin Guide and I am really enjoying it....
I still need to play with TW more - so I can't comment enough apart from what I said above.
How many counters are you currently playing with? I'm using 3x Spell Pierce, 3x FoW and 1 Daze at the moment.... I haven't decided if this is the right number yet as I too have been thinking of upping the Daze count to 2 or maybe even 3. The problem with Daze and Pierce are they aren't half as useful after the first 3 or so turns and are a terrible top deck late game when you just need a burn spell to finish off your opponent. Because of that Im actually going with the 8 bolts and 4 PoP (my God this card is so good - single handedly wins games by itself).
Still some tweaks to iron out of my personal deck, mainly if TW should be replaced and if my creature base is correct (I may try two snapcasters, 4 is certainly too much for my taste) but we'll see during the next tourney which is the middle of June!
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
Fire/Ice is a really nice card (I remember playing these in standard, boy I feel old) I think it's very versatile and as you said allows you to pitch it to FoW if you really need it. Plus anything that is a cantrip I really like - I guess you could say I have a soft spot for it.
That said, right now Im running TW instead of Fire/Ice, I guess mostly for testing purposes. I just simply won't have room otherwise to fit in all the core cards I want to use.
As for the Vexing Devil, personally I love him. Early he's R for 4 damage to the dome OR he's a 4/3 creature. Both of these for 1 mana is fantastic IMO, even with the "browbeat" trigger. Obviously, there's times you'd rather they take the damage and other times you wish they'd let the creature stick - but unlike browbeat it a) Costs only one mana and b) Both options are generally bad for your opponent. If Vexing Devil was R1 or something similar there's no way I'd be interested, but in my current deck all the creatures Im running are 1 drops so it almost guarantee I put pressure on my opponent early. He's also the 3rd choice in the pecking order, with GG being 1st and Delver being 2nd in order of priority.
In addition, there's many times I've played Vexing Devil and my opponent tried to take him out next turn, only to be stopped by a Daze or Spell Pierce (the look of horror on their face afterwards is rather fun to watch) He's just a beast for 1 mana and if they take the damage that's really not a problem for me. There's only a few times I wished he was another card and very rarely would I wish he was a lavamancer or snapcaster (more so on the latter but that's almost always in the late game when I could afford the flashback on a key spell).
I should note, I only play with 18 lands, so my mana curve is VERY tight - most all my spells are 1 casting cost with a couple of exceptions... which is also why I prefer the devil over say, the Snapcaster (which is generally 3 cc before it can be used effectively). Definitely warrants more playtesting though.... as I've only been using the Devil exclusively for a couple weeks now.
My ratios are:
10 damage-dealing creatures:
4x Goblin Guide
4x Delver
2x Lavaboy
9 Counterspells:
3x Spell Pierce
3x Force of Will
1x Counterspell
2x Daze
11 Burn spells:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
3x Price of Progress
10 Manipulation spells:
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
3x Snapcaster Mage
(then 20 lands gets you to 60 cards)
I REALLY REALLY want to find room for Earthquake or Bonfire of the Damned, but I just don't know where to put it. Probably in the sideboard. Obviously everyone's metagame is a little different, but Earthquake is serious gas against Maverick/Burn/Mongooses/etc.
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Death and Taxes, Infect
Modern: Infect, TarmoTwin
TW is at most a 2 of, feels great to both topdeck and and get a delver flip out of it
The card itself won't net you a win, but the Lava Axe for R speeds up the deck by a turn and allows you to hold onto a Bolt or Chain Lightning for creature removal
Taking my list to the Open this weekend (as soon as my dang Arid Mesas come in), I have found Snapcaster Mage more often than not to either be a beat stick and a brainstorm or pitched to FoW, both made me realize he needs to stay in as worst case he trades with something or beats for 2
My build is more focused on Mid-Range playing Control up until the point I can go very aggressive against my opponent
Vexing Devil is quite bad TBH, he is never what you want him to be and if he is your opponent will have an answer to it immediately, I would say to include him only in a Control build over Lavamancer, but even then Lavamancer is much better even if he doesn't stick on the board for very long
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
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Hermit Druid Combo:
Personally I wouldn't run a 1 of for Vexing Devil, it's one of those "go big or go home" cards. In your deck, I probably wouldn't play any unless you want to cut other creature cards instead. Also, I really don't like Fireblast in this deck. I have trouble getting 2 mountains consistently to begin with, let alone being able to pay for 2 Fireblasts. Plus, if it's countered or something - you're without red mana which I just don't like in this decktype. Don't get me wrong, this card is AWESOME.... I play a lot of burn decks too, so I know all about how absolutely fantastic this card is, I just don't like it here.... just my opinion, others play with it and do very well, so take it with a grain of salt
I absolutely do! I love FoW, it's one of my favorite cards, well, ever.... funny, I remember when they first came out, opening packs of Alliances thinking "wow this card is great". We played with them back then too but they were worth about $4 a pop - I still have a hard time fathoming how much they are actually worth lol. Some people don't like them in this deck because of the card disadvantage, and mostly, they are right. Spell Pierce I've found is just as good 90% of the time.... but you know what? I refuse to lose to Belcher or other fast combo decks on turn one before I even get a chance to play a land.... so I'll never play a blue deck without 3+ FoW's. Maybe Im stubborn and/or old fashioned, but I can always find a place for one of the best blue cards ever printed.
Agreed, I'm also running 2 and finding it pretty solid.... Im not 100% sold yet, but it has some serious potential when you can knock off 1/4th your opponents life for one mana.
As I stated originally, I knew my choice to omit Snapcaster (and Lavamancer for that matter) would be disagreed with by most, and I can completely see where you are coming from. But personally, I don't run him for the same reason I don't run Lavamancers - I just find they're too slow for my liking. You really need 3 CC before snapcasters become relevant, unless you really want to play a 2/1 flash creature for 2 but I'm sure you'll agree that's very meh.
It's really not... I'd encourage you to playtest it more - as it just came out I would assume you haven't played with it very much. On the surface, it looks like Browbeat and we all know that's a very sub-optimal card.... but when you play with it, you'll understand the anguish your opponent will have everytime he's played
Since a couple of people asked, here's the list I'm currently playtesting after the release of AVR. Prior to the new set, I more or less ran this: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=45617 (I think I had -1 fetch land and +1 Ponder)
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Goblin Guide
4x Vexing Devil
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Price of Progress
4x Ponder
2x Daze
3x Force of Will
3x Spell Pierce
2x Thunderous Wrath
Theres 3 slots that Im tinkering with... which are currently the 2 Thunderous Wrath and a 4th Spell Pierce/FoW/2nd Daze (I've been rotating them out trying to find a nice combination). I Also wouldn't mind trying Fire/Ice in this slot - I'm honestly not too sure yet as I need more testing (I do software QA in real life - so I'm kind of a research nut)
One important note I almost forgot, there's 20 blue cards in this deck, and 22 if I end up including Fire/Ice. Rarely ever have problems with FoW fodder, even without the snapcaster mage. Again, I completely understand why people run him -- he's certainly a good card and most all successful decks I've seen run him too but he's not my personal taste.
I don't claim to be an expert on this deck (though I've been playing and toying with it for a while), the only thing I can say is I like the way mine runs. Lots of people choose different card choices and that works for them - but this more or less works for me (minus a handfull of cards Im still playing with). Of course, I always change up my deck on a regular basis, playing different cards and trying to find what works best in most situation. I have very few issues with resources and I can generally play well against almost anything I run up against, so I'm liking the direction so far. As always though, thoughts/comments are welcome
P.S Sorry for the wall of text
It is hard for the deck to typically reach enough power to use Snapcaster, but still I find him useful in the deck as worst case he can be flashed as a blocker or pitched to FoW
I haven't tested Devil much, but when I was first building the deck really considered using him, then I just saw the way my build was going and knew even if he is amazing in the deck he can't fit in my build
A choice I have been tinkering successfully with (since I only have 1 Chain Lightning for now) is Magma Jet, typically used as spot removal for some annoying creature on board like a Guide or Mom, but the scry 2 helps a lot for consistency
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo: