[Deck/Primer] U/r/(x) Delver

  • #1
    PRIMER: U/r Snapcaster

    Updated: 2/22/12


    INTRODUCTION
    In the current legacy metagame burn is truly a force to be reckoned with. Many of the thresh decks and stoneforge decks simply have no way to stop the fast combo engine of burn. However there are a few things that a burn deck either cannot deal with or has a hard time with game one.
    1) An attacking batterskull (or anything else that gains a ton of life a turn)
    2) Fast combo decks
    3) Running out of steam against powerful control and prison decks such as counter-top and enchantress
    UR delver-burn attempts to recreate the power of the burn engine but sacrifices some of the speed for protection and consistency.

    Why should I play this deck?
    1) If you want the power that comes with the ability to trade one mana for three life but you don’t want to auto-lose to combo.
    2) If you like the idea of playing a flying wild nacatl but have no interest in playing tarmogoyf or just don’t own them.
    3)Because it’s a cool deck that is a ton of fun to play! (and still wins games)


    Why shouldn’t I play this deck?
    1) If your meta is full of decks that beat burn (faster combos, counter-top) you will just kinda lost a lot. It wont be fun.
    2) if your meta is full of burn. This deck’s critical turn is usually about one turn behind burn’s. it is a very hard match up to win (but completely possible if you play right)
    3) If you hate fun.

    DECK LISTS
    Last edited by swindy92: 2/22/2012 12:27:04 PM
  • #2
    RESERVED FOR TOURNAMENT REPORTS
  • #3
    Counterspell and Vedalken Shackles don't seem too much in the spirit of Tempo, but the rest of the deck is. I would cut those for more tempo spells/some land. 20 land is not enough in this deck, especially with Wastelands, and if you plan on keeping Shackles. I could see going to 22 easily. Snapcaster is also an easy 4-of with Brainstorms, Bolts, Spell Snares, Stifles, and all that.

    Right now, this seems very tempo-y. I could see a more control based list with Shackles and Counterspell working out fine, but then you should be cutting things like Daze and probably Stifle and possibly some Wastelands.

    I think that you should really pick which direction you want to go, either tempo or straight control, and not mesh the two so much.

    Also, the sideboard seems very abstract. I know it's entirely meta-dependent, but still seems a bit out there (the Ensnaring Bridge, the Surgical/Crypt split (Surgical seems better in most cases with Snapcaster to flashback), the Pithing Needles, etc.).

    Also, it seems very hard to deal with most creatures if they get past your counters. Especially Tarmogoyf (one of the most widely played cards in Legacy). And if an opposing Stoneforge can get a Batterskull in before you Bolt it in the 1 turn window, you're done. I mean, sure, you can Stifle it, but that only buys you one turn.

    I don't know, it just doesn't seem powerful enough for how slow it is, and how little creature control there is. Though, if your goal is to bend over combo, your large counterspell suite is looking like it will get the job done.
  • #4
    hey everyone!
    This deck just won a star city open
    the list was:


    Creatures
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Goblin Guide
    3 Grim Lavamancer
    3 Snapcaster Mage

    Instants
    4 Brainstorm
    2 Daze
    2 Fireblast
    3 Force of Will
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Price of Progress
    3 Spell Snare

    Sorceries
    4 Chain Lightning
    3 Ponder

    Basic Lands
    2 Island
    2 Mountain

    Lands
    2 Arid Mesa
    3 Misty Rainforest
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Volcanic Island
    1 Wooded Foothills

    Sideboard:
    3 Pyrostatic Pillar
    2 Sulfuric Vortex
    1 Force of Will
    3 Pyroblast
    3 Submerge
    3 Surgical Extraction


    what do you guys think?
  • #5
    I am bumping this up to established because it's performing well enough
    -Warden


    November NELC at Jupiter ~ Vestal, NY has a T8 placement from Doug McKay.
    The December NELC that just happened has a few showing of this deck in the T8. My good friend Greg Komar just got 4th. I told Greg to post in this thread/link to a report. I don't want to steal his moment.

    EDIT: This also just happened....http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=42531. Andrew Shrout winning SCG St. Louis
    Last edited by Warden: 12/5/2011 7:58:57 AM
    That which nourishes me, destroys me
    Former Legacy Mod :: Cube
    Quote from Samyueru

    I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
  • #6
    I honestly don't think the list that won St. louis is the same archetype that Aj Sacher used. They play completely different games. Shrout's list is far and above an aggro deck while Sacher's is a control deck. =/
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  • #7
    Quote from -spooky-
    I honestly don't think the list that won St. louis is the same archetype that Aj Sacher used. They play completely different games. Shrout's list is far and above an aggro deck while Sacher's is a control deck. =/


    This thread is devoted to ALL U/r decks using snapcaster. Just like bant, junk and rug have more agro and more control variants, so will we.
  • #8
    Quote from swindy92
    This thread is devoted to ALL U/r decks using snapcaster. Just like bant, junk and rug have more agro and more control variants, so will we.


    Is this really true? Junk has almost 0 variance in the list; the major difference being that some lists play GSZ and some play SFM. There is separate discussion for each different RUG deck. The Bant thread's primer is only on NO Bant but NO Bant is a widely unplayed deck since Natural Order is not as strong as it was a few months ago with Metamorph and Phantasmal Image being printed.

    In addition, AJ's old list has not seen any progress because it is actually quite bad; he is trying to do too much but in the end the deck is a control deck so Lightning Bolt ends up being subpar and should just be Punishing Fire. He also can't beat Goyfs with his list. His deck either becomes NLT or CounterTop in the end to actually beat Goyfs.

    The newer lists are either Tempo/Aggro and can ignore Goyf the way Burn does.

    This deck seems to be serious business however. I am excited to see a non-tempo (sorta) aggro deck finally appear from the mists.
    BEEP BOOP BEEP
  • #9
    Hi all,

    So my full report will probably be up today or tomorrow at Jupiter Games' website at Jupitergames.net, but on Saturday, 12/3/11, Doug McKay piloted a very similar deck to the UR Delver Aggro deck that won Sunday, 12/4/11, to a top 8. I piloted a different U/R Delver deck to a top 4, losing to a RUG Delver deck that ended up winning the entire thing. My deck opted not to play Price of Progress and Fireblasts, instead choosing to go for the Stifle Wasteland route. Here's my list:

    Main deck:

    4 Snapcaster Mage
    4 Delver of Secrets
    3 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Chain Lightning
    2 Dismember
    4 Stifle
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Preordain
    4 Force of Will
    3 Spell Pierce
    3 Daze
    2 Island
    1 Mountain
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Wasteland
    4 Volcanic Island

    Sideboard:

    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Smash to Smithereens
    2 Shattering Spree
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Pyroblast
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Submerge

    This was just short of a 100 man tournament, and most big legacy players on the east coast know Jupiter Games. James won GP Providence for us and Eli Kassis used to own the store. These are not lightweight tournaments, by any means. Just to throw it out there, now that I'm sure people will start talking about it, I'm 99% sure that the U/R Snapcaster deck that plays Price and Goblin Guide was grandfathered in the November Jupiter Games NELC Legacy Tournament by Doug McKay - I just want to make sure he gets the credit he deserves, he is the man when it comes to deck design.

    Again, my report is being edited and when it's done it'll be on Jupiter's site and I'll be more than happy to post a link for you all to read.

    Thanks,

    Greg Komar
  • #10
    Quote from Zirath
    Is this really true? Junk has almost 0 variance in the list; the major difference being that some lists play GSZ and some play SFM. There is separate discussion for each different RUG deck. The Bant thread's primer is only on NO Bant but NO Bant is a widely unplayed deck since Natural Order is not as strong as it was a few months ago with Metamorph and Phantasmal Image being printed.

    In addition, AJ's old list has not seen any progress because it is actually quite bad; he is trying to do too much but in the end the deck is a control deck so Lightning Bolt ends up being subpar and should just be Punishing Fire. He also can't beat Goyfs with his list. His deck either becomes NLT or CounterTop in the end to actually beat Goyfs.

    The newer lists are either Tempo/Aggro and can ignore Goyf the way Burn does.

    This deck seems to be serious business however. I am excited to see a non-tempo (sorta) aggro deck finally appear from the mists.


    with any of those decks, you can play a more controlling ( Forceful bant, landstill junk), a more agressive (NO) or more tempo (normal junk, thresh). I have no idea where this deck will go but for now it will all be in this thread it looks like. Possibly if this becomes more popular we can talk to the mods about splitting into two threads.

    I wont disagree that Aj's list is no longer valid but I do believe that a more controlling version of this deck is possible.

    I do agree though that this deck has some amazing potentia


    Quote from Dyvith
    Hi all,

    So my full report will probably be up today or tomorrow at Jupiter Games' website at Jupitergames.net, but on Saturday, 12/3/11, Doug McKay piloted a very similar deck to the UR Delver Aggro deck that won Sunday, 12/4/11, to a top 8. I piloted a different U/R Delver deck to a top 4, losing to a RUG Delver deck that ended up winning the entire thing. My deck opted not to play Price of Progress and Fireblasts, instead choosing to go for the Stifle Wasteland route. Here's my list:

    Main deck:

    4 Snapcaster Mage
    4 Delver of Secrets
    3 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Chain Lightning
    2 Dismember
    4 Stifle
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Preordain
    4 Force of Will
    3 Spell Pierce
    3 Daze
    2 Island
    1 Mountain
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Wasteland
    4 Volcanic Island

    Sideboard:

    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Smash to Smithereens
    2 Shattering Spree
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Pyroblast
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Submerge

    This was just short of a 100 man tournament, and most big legacy players on the east coast know Jupiter Games. James won GP Providence for us and Eli Kassis used to own the store. These are not lightweight tournaments, by any means. Just to throw it out there, now that I'm sure people will start talking about it, I'm 99% sure that the U/R Snapcaster deck that plays Price and Goblin Guide was grandfathered in the November Jupiter Games NELC Legacy Tournament by Doug McKay - I just want to make sure he gets the credit he deserves, he is the man when it comes to deck design.

    Again, my report is being edited and when it's done it'll be on Jupiter's site and I'll be more than happy to post a link for you all to read.

    Thanks,

    Greg Komar


    Hey Greg,
    Would you be okay with me including your list and possibly parts of your tournament report in the primer?
  • #11
    Absolutely, thanks for asking.
  • #12
    Quote from swindy92
    with any of those decks, you can play a more controlling ( Forceful bant, landstill junk), a more agressive (NO) or more tempo (normal junk, thresh). I have no idea where this deck will go but for now it will all be in this thread it looks like. Possibly if this becomes more popular we can talk to the mods about splitting into two threads.

    I wont disagree that Aj's list is no longer valid but I do believe that a more controlling version of this deck is possible.

    I do agree though that this deck has some amazing potentia


    A more controlling version is NLT honestly, which against has Goyf because it can't fight Goyfs.

    As it stands, this deck uses Price of Progress incredibly well, which I think is a huge issue.
    BEEP BOOP BEEP
  • #13
    Quote from Zirath
    A more controlling version is NLT honestly, which against has Goyf because it can't fight Goyfs.

    As it stands, this deck uses Price of Progress incredibly well, which I think is a huge issue.


    I have to disagree there. I believe a version of this deck very similar to MUC is viable.

    why do you feel its an issue that PoP is so good?
  • #14
    I think that there's a decision that you need to make between playing
    Price and playing Stifle and Wasteland. It's tough, because sometimes you play against decks that just don't play basics and you poop on them, and sometimes you have a card in your hand that just doesn't do anything. I was originally on the price plan, but it doesn't give you as much room to maneuver. In addition, you win just as many games, if not more, from having stifle and wasteland as you do from having price. Plus, with all the spells snares being played, price is just another target. I think one of the main advantages to playing the straight U/R version of Stifle / Wasteland (as opposed to playing green) is that all of these other decks that play Spell Snare basically have one target in the entire deck, which is Snapcaster. I don't know about you, but if I can almost blank four cards in my opponents deck while forcing them to fetch basics and play around stifle, I'm pretty content with that.
  • #15
    I agree Doug McKay should get the credit he deserves. Incredibly nice guy and very innovative with decks. The recent success of this deck should acknowledge McKay to some degree. Deckcheck his NELC november list because he was ahead of the curve.

    Quote from Dyvith
    ....
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    4 Delver of Secrets
    3 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Lightning Bolt
    3 Chain Lightning
    2 Dismember
    4 Stifle
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Preordain
    4 Force of Will
    3 Spell Pierce
    3 Daze
    2 Island
    1 Mountain
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Wasteland
    4 Volcanic Island

    Sideboard:

    1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Smash to Smithereens
    2 Shattering Spree
    2 Red Elemental Blast
    2 Pyroblast
    3 Surgical Extraction
    3 Submerge


    I know you're writing a tourney report, but how were the cards I loaned you? Did crucible play a role? I'm also curious how submerge played out. From the decks I faced saturday, submerge would have been awful. I'd personally pilot the deck with Price 3-4x in the 75 as significant hate against non basics. Very proud of you nonetheless...must have been the Denny's we had.


    Me "hi, can I have eggs that look like this picture" (points finger to picture in menu)
    Waitress "you mean sunny-side up?"
    Greg (interjecting) "did you really just ask that?"
    Waitress "and for you..?"
    Greg "I.....want it like the picture as well"
    That which nourishes me, destroys me
    Former Legacy Mod :: Cube
    Quote from Samyueru

    I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
  • #16
    Quote from Warden
    [color=deeppink]I agree Doug McKay should get the credit he deserves. Incredibly nice guy and very innovative with decks. The recent success of this deck should acknowledge McKay to some degree. Deckcheck his NELC november list because he was ahead of the curve.



    Doug is a friend of mine so I've already sent him a message asking if he would be willing to help with the primer or contribute anything. For those of you who don't know him, I recommend coming to a Jupiter game's tournament just to meet him. He can teach us all a lot about how to build decks
  • #17
    The miser's Jace and Crucible won me at least one game each, which considering I won 5 of my 6 matches in 2 games, says a lot. The submerges were less than ideal, but they were also a necessary evil, as my weakest match-ups were against green mid range decks, like the RUG Delver decks that plagued the top 8. I'm cutting a Red Blast for a singleton Blue Blast. The 3rd Surgical may or may not come out, as it dilutes the deck, but is still amazing in some match ups. In fact, two Surgicals came in for my first round of Top 8 against Doug and they 4 for 1ed him at one point, which you can read about in my report, which should be up today or tomorrow. Smash to Smithereens was also crucial in two games.
  • #18
    For the "Why should I play this deck over ________?" section, I'd like to talk about these points favouring UR Snap Burn over bog-standard Burn:
    • Built well, it won't auto-lose to Belcher, Storm (they'll use either IGG or Past in Flames against you, believe me), or fast combo
    • Goblin Guide gets blocked all day by Wild Nacatl and Goyf, while Insectile Aberrations fly over those guys (You get to play with a flying blue Wild Nacatl! Isn't that awesome?)
    • Burn hates bricking on lands; UR fixes that
    • Tiago gets you the best burn spell you already used; great if you're running out of gas

    Of course, immunity to Wasteland, more reliably slinging Fireblasts, and never hurting itself with Price of Progress is a great boon for regular Burn, and Burn's higher threat density might tilt things to its favour.
  • #19
    Quote from Lectrys
    For the "Why should I play this deck over ________?" section, I'd like to talk about these points favouring UR Snap Burn over bog-standard Burn:
    • Built well, it won't auto-lose to Belcher, Storm (they'll use either IGG or Past in Flames against you, believe me), or fast combo
    • Goblin Guide gets blocked all day by Wild Nacatl and Goyf, while Insectile Aberrations fly over those guys (You get to play with a flying blue Wild Nacatl! Isn't that awesome?)
    • Burn hates bricking on lands; UR fixes that
    • Tiago gets you the best burn spell you already used; great if you're running out of gas

    Of course, immunity to Wasteland, more reliably slinging Fireblasts, and never hurting itself with Price of Progress is a great boon for regular Burn, and Burn's higher threat density might tilt things to its favour.


    Thanks for that comparison. I've been looking at this deck and was wondering why this was "better" than a standard burn deck with a higher threat density.

    Time to think about deck choices and my loca meta. Thanks again!
    -Daniel

    Current Decks:
    Legacy:
    BGR Punishing Jund
    UWR Miracles
    BUR ANT

    Commander:
    UWG Rafiq of the Many
    RBW Kaalia of the Vast
  • #20
    Hello again! Here's a link to my tournament report that I mentioned earlier. Enjoy!

    http://jupitergamesonline.com/2011/883/greg-komars-tournament-report
  • #21
    Wow this snapburn is really dangerous... Here's a proxy I threw up with a bunch of cards lying around

    Instead of Grim, I went with Kiln Fiend. Holy moly you can get it up to +9 easily with burn removal and deal something like 12 points of damage in turn 3 or 4. Here's what I proxied up and I like it a lot.

    Underused Cards's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Kiln Fiend

    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    2 Flame Slash
    2 Price of Progress
    1 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Noxious Revival
    4 Force of Will
    3 Spell Snare
    4 Daze

    3 Island
    3 Mountain
    2 Ghost Quarter
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Volcanic Island



    This is a really great archetype. A good way for Burn to evolve. I'm still trying to figure out where to put Fire/Ice. Oh yea, my reasoning for Flameslash over Dismember is just 4 life I didn't want to take. Especially in such a racing meta, it's difficult to eat that 4 life.
    Last edited by Underused Cards: 12/6/2011 10:13:30 AM
  • #22
    Quote from Dyvith
    Hello again! Here's a link to my tournament report that I mentioned earlier. Enjoy!

    http://jupitergamesonline.com/2011/883/greg-komars-tournament-report


    Loved the report ad thanks for the shout out in the intro lol. I do have some questions:

    1. spree vs smash...3x overall probably felt right but how did replicate factor into the matches? Do you find 2 spree to be better than potentially flipping to 2 smash. The instant vs sorcery issue DID come up and it's an issue worth asking
    2. 2x dismembers were ___________ all day.
    3. where does price of progress fit into your list, assuming you go that route? I'm thinking that might be the dismember slots 2x and finding another 2x in the board. Like I said before the event, I think PoP is one of the best cards in the format....the only issue is that you need to play red and aim to eat non-basics (very rare combination). PoP usually reads "R+1: deal 8 damage to your opponent". That's just silly when you factor in snapcasters and the final reach of lavamancer.

    Just as a critique, I think submerge was incredibly lucky for you (especially since we were both at the event). I the future, I'd definitely shift to a different bounce spell or u/g trump card. I ran stoneforge --> body and mind against the one bant opponent I faced and jesus christ it auto-won the matchup. While you don't have SFM, you certainly have manipulation to dig for that 1x threat. Possibly running an equipment out the board (a) makes delver that much scarier, (b) lets lavamancer chump block goyf + ping on their turn, (c) ends the game fast against what appears to be a hole in your deck's gameplan. Body and Mind also stops Reliquary, who beat the hell out of me. I doubt you saw any KOTR based on matchups, but she's a nasty one to face your 75. I know you like the "free spell" options such as submerge but consider a lone SoBaM.
    Looking back, Echoing Truth would have done damage at Jupiter. If you're ahead, you can bounce a snapcaster to re-use burn/key spells and end the game. Stifle/Waste early, snap back stifle to nuke another fetch, truth to bounce their first threat OR just bounce said snapcaster back to your hand so you can snap-stifle again. If your board state is dead-even or behind, bouncing opposing delvers (ie; the flipped 3/2 one) can act as a solid time-walk. The 1/1----->3/2 flip isn't guaranteed to happen.
    That which nourishes me, destroys me
    Former Legacy Mod :: Cube
    Quote from Samyueru

    I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
  • #23
    Dismember was solid, but again, this deck really wants Goyf, and in the future, that's probably what I'll do. Lavaman is a great one of, but I think if I go into green, I'll keep him like that - as a one of. Submerge will probably go down to a 2 of, and Kenny Adams and I have some spicy tech that I think might be going in as a one or two of. As far as Price goes, I think if my deck wants Price, it's going to want Fireblast too, and I'll just end up playing the Doug McKay Version then. However, one thing to note is that in the four games I played against Doug on the day, he never fireblasted me or Priced me.
  • #24
    Quote from Lectrys
    For the "Why should I play this deck over ________?" section, I'd like to talk about these points favouring UR Snap Burn over bog-standard Burn:
    • Built well, it won't auto-lose to Belcher, Storm (they'll use either IGG or Past in Flames against you, believe me), or fast combo
    • Goblin Guide gets blocked all day by Wild Nacatl and Goyf, while Insectile Aberrations fly over those guys (You get to play with a flying blue Wild Nacatl! Isn't that awesome?)
    • Burn hates bricking on lands; UR fixes that
    • Tiago gets you the best burn spell you already used; great if you're running out of gas

    Of course, immunity to Wasteland, more reliably slinging Fireblasts, and never hurting itself with Price of Progress is a great boon for regular Burn, and Burn's higher threat density might tilt things to its favour.


    Would you be interested in writing a piece like this for the primer?

    Quote from Underused Cards
    Wow this snapburn is really dangerous... Here's a proxy I threw up with a bunch of cards lying around

    Instead of Grim, I went with Kiln Fiend. Holy moly you can get it up to +9 easily with burn removal and deal something like 12 points of damage in turn 3 or 4. Here's what I proxied up and I like it a lot.

    swindy92's DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards
    4 Snapcaster Mage
    4 Delver of Secrets
    4 Kiln Fiend

    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning
    2 Flame Slash
    2 Price of Progress
    1 Ponder
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Noxious Revival
    4 Force of Will
    3 Spell Snare
    4 Daze

    3 Island
    3 Mountain
    2 Ghost Quarter
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Wooded Foothills
    4 Volcanic Island



    This is a really great archetype. A good way for Burn to evolve. I'm still trying to figure out where to put Fire/Ice. Oh yea, my reasoning for Flameslash over Dismember is just 4 life I didn't want to take. Especially in such a racing meta, it's difficult to eat that 4 life.


    gitaxian probe is amazing if you are running kiln fiend. free spells are really good with it and it lets you know what to sace your counterspells for
  • #25
    Quote from swindy92
    Would you be interested in writing a piece like this for the primer?

    gitaxian probe is amazing if you are running kiln fiend. free spells are really good with it and it lets you know what to sace your counterspells for


    Nice. I'm liking Echoing Truth for some blue removal. How about Unsummon? It helps bounce creatures, snapcaster, etc.
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