@DemolitionColorScheme: I think YP puts this deck over the top tbh. Card is literally insane. You net so much advantage because your durdly cantrips and filters read "add a 1/1 on the field in addition to casting this spell". I think you're onto something in terms of the curve though. You definitely don't want to be running too many higher drops. Nevertheless, YP + a brainstorm and counter = 4 power on the table. You have to do the math game with YP because he can just overwhelm the table.
If he dies...it's not the end of the world. A competitive deck only has X removal spells. Throwing down an early Delver into YP or Confidant....the opponent can't really contain all of that. YP is yet another "must answer" creature. That's how I view him. With that being said, the number to play is somewhere between 3 and 4. I'm not playing this deck but from a building perspective, you really wanna push the YP machine. Multiple YP just get ridiculous.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
TNN is a good card but I don't think this deck wants him because of everything Quizzle said. 3 mana is too much in this deck when you want to be wastelanding and cantriping.
On the subject of 4 YP, he is insane. You really only need to stick one to win the game against most match ups. Even if he just comes down and eats a removal spell, then your delver or Bob gets to hang around. I would not go down to less than 4 in my list.
Fair enough. I would cut Bobs before I cut Pyromen. I'll concede that TNN probably isn't great for this deck but saying that it's only good in Stoneforge decks is wrong IMO. Team America players are starting to use the card in place of Tombstalker (FINALLY) but as far as tempo decks go they have a better Deathrite Shaman plan than us.
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Between daze and gitaxian probe you don't need three mana on turn two in order to curve into 2 drop+effect. While DRS can certainly close out a game, I think that GLM is more of what this deck wants to be doing. It clears out the blockers that stop our attacking plan.
In Delver, Bob and Young P we have 12 creatures that demand an answer or they win the game. We want 17-18 lands. We want 28 spells. That gives us 2 or 3 slots for other creatures. We don't want to brainstorm turn 1, but we will ponder. That gives us 8 turn 1 plays not including GLM. If we want more turn 1 plays, then I recommend thoughtseize over DRS and GLM over both of them.
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I do agree that the deck does not feel as tempoy as RUG unless you have the delver start. Our creatures are less aggressive (but better overall) and maybe we should play to that strength. If we (I wont) drop stifles, we could play more like the UWR lists. That may be safer but I think we will just be a worse version of those.
I know the interaction...I just feel it's such a caddy-corner case. Cool to know someone took advantage of the scenario. But how frequently are you pulling it off? One could argue a lone EE or something in a 3 or 4 (DRS) color deck accomplishes more as a caddy corner card.
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I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
I know the interaction...I just feel it's such a caddy-corner case. Cool to know someone took advantage of the scenario. But how frequently are you pulling it off? One could argue a lone EE or something in a 3 or 4 (DRS) color deck accomplishes more as a caddy corner card.
The answer to "how often" is pretty much never. Having 4 lands untapped when they resolve JTMS and BS is pretty unlikely. If you wait for the second or third BS, then they probably have an answer.
Hi guys, I wanted to present another take on grixis delver. I must say I dont get to play much legacy, since there is not much of a following here. So some things may be a bit off or what not.
Anyways...
So I feel like bob wouldnt really fit into this. As much as he would seem to work with death shadow, it just feels to uncontrolled. And with everything else in the deck hurting you, tis just to much.
Grim lavamancer just never seemed to work to well with Tombstalker, maybe I could use one.
And for the blue blasts. I feel burn would just be an horrible match up, and blue blast can deal with everything in that deck,
it can also get rid of bloodmoons
I Know its much different then everything else here, but id still like opinions,
In my opinion Death's Shadow is an awful card and goes against the entire tempo plan of Grixis Tempo and most Delver decks. Okay, its CMC is 1, but it's a dead card most of the time since you're playing the "No-uh; denial-plan". If you really want a big beater and you run Stifle, you could opt to include Phyrexian Dreadnought and go the Stiflenought route ...
... which actually gets me brainstorming in terms of the regular Dark Confidant/Bob build. Phyrexian Dreadnought would actually work well with Bob as opposed to Tombstalker, which I've tried. Since we run 4 Stifle, we could make that work, though Stifle is mostly used as a part of the mana-denial / jack-of-all-trades-route. It's risky business, but it might be worth considering.
Some other notes: run 4 Ponder and 4 Bolt. Those cards are one of the most important ones, since Ponder should be a 4-off, always. It's ridiculously overpowered and Bolt is part of the tempo plan. Lose the Dismember's, maybe get it down to 1 copy. I feel big creatures like Goyf aren't so much a problem when Young Pyromancer gets rolling, since those 1/1 tokens can chump block for days. Maybe cut one Thoughtseize, add one Cabal Therapy (making it 3 Cabal's after sideboarding).
As for the land-base. Blue is always most important in Delver decks. Volcanic Island beats Badlands (same goes for Underground Sea), since drawing a Badlands in your opening hand or the very first turns is just extremely bad. You want to Spell Pierce, Daze, Ponder, Brainstorm and Stifle. I know the landbase is pricey, but it should really be 3 Underground Sea and 3 Volcanic Island. That 1 Island might be handy, but most Delver decks are just greedy in terms of the manabase. I get people want to outsmart Wastelands and Bloodmoon. We can save our land by Stifling their Wasteland. If that gets Dazed, we can Daze back to save our land anyways. In desperate times, we can even Bolt or Brainstorm and Daze it ourselves. It has worked for me in the past. Bloodmoon is always a *****, but we can Daze, FoW, Spell Pierce that, so ...
If you're really that afraid of Burn, just run Chill. Our Bolts and YP suffer, but the rest doesn't. It's basically insta-win vs. Burn. Blue Elemental Blast is basically a wasted SB slot in my opinion; if you haven't grabbed the island pre-Blood-moon, you're not gonna be able to blast that Bloodmoon anyways.
I used to have 2 tropicals instead of the blood cyprr and island. But it always just felt like I was getting locker out of black to much and not being able to cast deaths shadow and tombstalker .
A lot of these lists seem to be a bit confused, because they try and follow a tempo gameplan whilst using midrange creatures. Bob is unreal in the mid-game, but he's not a clock, and can't really win the game on his own; rather, he facilitates other cards, and is a good engine. The same goes for YP. In my opinion, he's not really a tempo card, but is more of a midrange card, as he takes time to get going, but is a fantastic engine once he does. I think he belongs more in a zombardment type list than anything.
As for what creatures a grixis deck should be running, I think there are 4-5 very clear cut options:
4 DRS/lavamancer - depending on whether you want to accelerate yourself (DRS) or control the board more (GL).
4 Delver - clearly.
2/3 TNN - he closes out games on his own, and can't be removed. He lets you focus on developing and protecting your other threats.
2 Tombstalker - Dodges everything except for swords and dismember, hits for 5 in the air.
This is almost verbatim the list that many of the more successful GRUB delver lists use, though they replace the TNN with goyf. Since we don't have goyf, TNN is our next best option.
As for why these are likely the best cards for the job: individually, they are all capable of closing out games; DRS will accelerate you, and give you reach that is difficult to prevent (effectively evasive damage). Delver is cheap, efficient, and easy to protect, as well as being evasive. The same goes for both TNN and Tombstalker, which require minimal protection on your part, and will put the opponent under constant pressure when they land. Supported with bolt and DRS, both will end games in short order.
Really, what you want in a tempo deck is pressure and disruption. We have plenty of disruption, but the creature package is just as important, because the more efficient it is, the better your disruption becomes. If your opponent only has 1 or 2 cards in his/her deck that can reliably kill your threats, then you only need to counter 1 or 2 spells. If you run out bob or YP, you need to protect them from from pretty much everything, since they die to a stiff breeze. Even then, they are more about advancing a long term game plan rather than imminently ending the game, so you need to protect them for a comparatively long time compared to your other threats.
Those are very good points, really! The reason why I feel Grixis Delver, in its current state, is pretty slow is because we really don't have an effecient tempo plan and running YP just isn't tempo. Neither is Bob, per sé.
I hate to cut Bob, but having Tombstalker and Bob is just horrible. The suggestions you dropped would be interesting, but I do have to say that it might be some kind of inferior version of Team America, which would outclass us in power with Abrupt Decays, Hymns, Goyfs, Delvers, DRS. TNN might work, but is quite slow and we don't run the equipments, which just kinda makes it a costly 3/1 beater / chumpblocker. However, he might work as a 2/3-of.
I dunno, the more I play Grixis Delver/Tempo, the less confidence I have in it, haha.
All true, but grixis has access to lightning bolt, which is huge. Plus, we get skullcrack and shattering spree against Patriot delver, marsh casualties for fighting off opposing TNN decks, pyroblast, and red elemental blast for punishing blue on top of an already strong counter package, and access to cards like hymn to tourach and sinkhole the same as team america does. We don't have goyf, but tombstalker is often bigger, and much more resilient anyway, and TNN is still good, even without equipment. Back him up with lightning bolts and burn from DRS/GL, and he'll definitely get there.
I mean, green is strong (understatement of 2013), but red is often a deadlier opponent due to its ability to win out of nowhere. A grixis deck should be bristling with burn and threats that allow it to win even from a disadvantaged position on the field, especially when all of its threats deal evasive damage. I mean, why do you care if your opponent has a good field developed if you're going to swing through and burn him down anyway? Red always has the advantage in a race, and unlike UWR delver, grixis won't be healing its opponents with swords to ploughshares.
I think grixis needs to be its own animal; all of the delver decks have their own respective strengths and weaknesses, and we need to figure out what the strengths and weaknesses of a grixis-based list are. I think the threats are there, but a lot of people have been building in the wrong direction. I would start with something like this:
From here, you'd work out whether or not stifle and sinkhole are really worthwhile in your meta. Maybe having the sinkholes be additional burn or disruption would be better. The sinkholes could easily be another 2 spellpierce for example, or even forked bolt or chain lightning.
I think the strategy for a list like this would be to control your opponent's mana, whilst sticking an early DRS and accelerating yourself using your opponent's dead lands. DRS also lets you do things like tap out, and still stifle your opponent, since the fetch sacrifice is part of the cost. It goes to the GY with the ability on the stack, and you exile the land to stifle it. You can catch players out this way. The bloodstained mire is there because it grabs all of our blue sources, without being a blue fetch, meaning you can lead with it on the play, and stifle your opponent when they misread your deck. At that stage, you have a pretty big tempo lead. If you land a DRS on the second turn, your opponent is faced with having to remove it through counter magic.
Then you have pretty gross plays like the infamous turn 2 TNN, enabled by DRS. It may not be the quickest, but it puts them on a hard to kill clock, which is the important thing. Against any red player, your effective life total is always 17, not 20, which makes TNN that much harder to deal with for your opponent. THey're essentially getting bolted every turn, and sooner or later, you'll back that up with lightning bolts, and additional threats. That's not so easy to deal with when you may only have 5-6 turns left.
I think the deck is there, and I think it has the potential to be very solid. The major problem as I see it is that people tend to incorporate card advantage into their tempo decks, when what they really want is time advantage. You want to prolong the early game, where your threats and disruption are strongest. Failing that, you want to dominate the field with threats that are hard for your opponent to deal with. Card advantage is less important than closing a game out.
I get your point; solid ones! I like it.
I'm not sure the Sinkholes fit, but I'm down with the rest. Good tech with the Bloodstained Mire as well! Kudo's.
Gitaxian Probes were ran with YP and Cabal Therapy in the SB. Are we gonna add discard to the SB vs. combo? Or just all out Flusterstorm / Stifle and Spell Pierce? Something that might be interesting; move one FoW to the SB and drop the Sinkholes and add 3 Chain Lightning? Get additional tempo that way, move more stuff to the graveyard in a timely fashion for Tombstalker?
It's not that I dislike Sinkhole, but I'm not sure if it's the right call for us right now. We'd need to test it, since it can be interesting. Develop our own board, get them off of lands as much as well can; accelerate with DRS and then develop further while denying them their mid/late-game.
hmmm, thinking about it, maybe those two sinkholes should just be chain lightnings or forked bolts. That gives us quite a bit of reach and removal, and -- as you mentioned -- fills our gy efficiently. Our counter package is a bit lighter than some of the other delver builds, but our beats should be a lot harder to deal with. Not to mention, we have the potential to be faster out of the gate due to DRS.
I'm not too worried about combo for the most part, since we should have a pretty decent match-up anyway. Thoughtseize and surgicals in the SB would help, maybe even gilded drake if show and tell is a problem in your area. We can't really exile creatures from the gy with DRS since we don't run green (which is fine imo, adding green makes things too difficult, and DRS is still one of the best creatures ever printed even without his third ability), but we still have good tools at our disposal. Stifle is troublesome for storm, especially in addition to our regular counter package, and one or two pieces in the sideboard (maybe the 4th fow as you suggested) should make it a tough match for them to navigate.
[edit: just had an idea -- how about izzet charm? Might be stupid, but the looting mode fills our yard for tombstalker, and it's an additional piece of removal, or a conditional counter. It costs UR, but it might be worth testing, since it should dig us pretty quick, and we can pitch any extra lands we find, and still get value out of them with DRS/tombstalker.]
Thought I had posted it here, apparently it was another grixis thread. In any case with all the tempo talk I felt I would bring this up again as I never took the time to improve my list. Hopefully it will help you with your tempo plan/ideas.
When I was playing that list the damage output was very sligh like. That was actually why I had wanted to try vexing devil and unearth. That 4 damage adds up fast especially with many decks relying on fetch lands. It's only a matter of time before one stays in play. The added benefit being unearth saves every creature. Rune snag was a concession to the late game and thoughts of snapcaster mage. Since it gets better and counters more then spell pierce it was a stronger choice. With the aggressive game plan I was working towards the actual tempo plan was almost secondary. The mana base was fine, and I hated getting wastelanded out of a game especially when it is an option I have.
And though not explicitly said yet, unearthing a vexing devil does give another chance to deal 4 damage. Vexing devil, take 4 -> unearth devil, take 4; 8 damage for 2 here was common.
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Izzet Charm might be interesting, though I think we can naturally fill our GY fast enough for the 2 Tombstalker's we're running. I'm not sure about it. Could be interesting tech. I think I'd stick with the 3 Chain Lightnings for now, then. Is there a place for GML? Maybe in the SB?
I think you would have to choose between lavamancer and tombstalker, as they're pretty anti-synergistic. It's a shame, because being able to have both would be ridiculously powerful.
I think I'm settling on the list I outlined earlier, only taking out the sinkholes, and replacing them with chain lightnings. I think the added reach will prove pretty powerful, and with tombstalker, DRS and delver, it shouldn't fold to the TNN-hate that is being played at the moment. I'll test izzet charm when I get the chance, though I suspect it's not really needed in the list, and is too expensive and conditional for what we're after.
Also, vexing devil with unearth seems like it would be good!
Hey guys, I've been piloting a UR Delver deck for half a year and I've been wondering if it would be nice to transform it into a Grixis Delver deck and I'd like some thoughts about the list I have
About the land choises, I like having at least one of the basic lands because of price of progress, back to basics, wasteland and blood moon... I just think its worth the risk, and personally its very rare for me to get manalocked because of basic lands. Also I prefer having more fetch lands to filter the deck and searching for the lands I will use than just using them in first place.
People usually use wasteland, but that's so predictable and not so useful if you only have wasteland (without any other sources of land destroying).
Also I'm torn about having terminate or dreadbore. I havent seen so many planeswalkers lately in my meta, and the real difference between them is losing the instant speed of terminate.
I haven't played it yet, but I think it will perform well... It has 6 sources of discard and 11 sources of counter, with a total of 17 spells to beat the opponent before they even see the battlefield, and 8 creature destroying sources (I thought about having more creature destroying sources, but theres a lot of combo in my meta and sometimes they would be useless)
I thought about TNN but it is really heavy for the deck, and having an almost indestructible but only 3 beater for 3cc (considering I have 22 spells that help me getting rid of creatures, in the opponent hand or out of it) doesn't seem really helpful for me. I'd rather get a baleful strix that helps me beating land units such as goyfs and batterskull and also gets me a card advantage
Also I like bob a lot, but I have 6 spells that cost over 5cc, and I rather get them than bob.
About the sideboard, I haven't really thought about it yet, but it will be the basic with engineered plague, submerge and stuff like that
I didn't get it
yeah, I'm intended to use only 15 lands, without wasteland which is pretty much the same manabase as the 19 land decks with 4 wasteland
Cool, but if you run all those cards doesnt it lack of slot for discard/counter in the decklist? I mean, against combo decks do you still get a good result with your decklist? My meta is full of combo, so I get a lot of counters/discard against them
I've never seen it before in the games I played, but unearth really seems an interesting choise, I just dont know what to take off... 1cc to get back almost any creature you got back, even with a lot of StP and without vexing it seems really good
Maybe get out the inquisitions and getting 2 or 3 sided cabal therapy for game 2 or 3, leaves me 2 slots in the maindeck to unearth
It seemed like Tombstalker always took some time for me to be able to cast him. I usually got him around T4
I'm thinking about taking off the tombstalker and getting some dark confidants, so that my game would be more about control and I wouldn't have to worry about losing 8 life for Tombstalker with bob. I've also put Cabal Therapy instead of Inquisition of Kozilek because of the sinergy between Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize/Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy and Young Pyromancer. The Baleful Strix would be sided 2 of them against large monsters.
I've cut Terminate to a 2 of, because I've already got a lot of counters and discards so that the enemy creatures barely see the battlefield, then I guess 6 removal spells are enough. Maybe some creature removal for the side would work well
This is really a test deck so that I can test the real interactions between the cards and how they work in my meta (with a lot of delver decks and combos). I'll be posting the results within a week.
By the way, I'm thinking maybe the deck lacks of finishing moves, but let's see how it really works. About the 14 lands, with a land and deathrite shaman I have all the mana I need, so I dont really think that it's necessary much more lands
I've been making some changes in the deck again, it just didn't seem really right
About the manabase I really felt it's "greedyness", basics really dont go along with this deck. Not the way its made since the three colors are really important, not only blue
I feel like dark confidant is really good but he is kinda fragile and he's another 2 drop creature. Young Pyromancer seems to be the star in this deck, also delver of secrets sets a really fast clock and deathrite shaman does all you need so I don't think bob is better than any of these creatures. Also, in a delver/YP deck, excessive creatures don't use to have a really good result after all
By the same thought as we had on tombstalker (delver decks use to have a pretty loaded graveyard), I'm thinking about Ghastly Demise. I dont really know how effective it is because my city lacks of tournaments in this part of the year but still I see a lot of potential in this card, and I don't know how bad the drawbacks in this card are. I was using Terminate, but I think the extra red mana makes it not worth playing
I took out the thoughtseize and put some gitaxian probe. The thing about thoughtseize is that you gather information on your opponent's hand, but you have to waste your T1 resource. With Gitaxian you get a vision of what you are facing before using your available mana, which can lead you to a threatless delver or a manaseeking deathrite shaman or even to a 2 or 3 hit Cabal Therapy. Also I think that in the midgame thoughtseize haven't so much utility and you will always lose 2 life, while gitaxian probe gives you the chance to not lose 2 life and also buy a card. I mean Gitaxian probe in the worse case scenario will cost 1 mana to activate and get you another card.
I still have to test it all, but I guess we already have 8 counters and 4/8 disruption card (flashback, works really well if you have a YP on the battlefield), there's no need for more thoughtseize
I took out the terminate and tombstalker because the dependance of 2 BB or BR really sucks. That's also one of the reasons that I'm now running 2 badlands and no more basic lands. Also I've decided to put 2 more fetch lands instead of more dual lands due to having more opportunity to chose which mana you get (also the usual benefits from fetch lands, such as filtering lands, getting rid of 2 dead cards with brainstorm or ponder, activating after the Delver's trigger show you a bad draw, etc). This really doesn't need more than 6 mana generating lands, and if it weren't for wasteland we could run only 3.
I've been making some changes in the deck again, it just didn't seem really right
About the manabase I really felt it's "greedyness", basics really dont go along with this deck. Not the way its made since the three colors are really important, not only blue
I feel like dark confidant is really good but he is kinda fragile and he's another 2 drop creature. Young Pyromancer seems to be the star in this deck, also delver of secrets sets a really fast clock and deathrite shaman does all you need so I don't think bob is better than any of these creatures. Also, in a delver/YP deck, excessive creatures don't use to have a really good result after all
By the same thought as we had on tombstalker (delver decks use to have a pretty loaded graveyard), I'm thinking about Ghastly Demise. I dont really know how effective it is because my city lacks of tournaments in this part of the year but still I see a lot of potential in this card, and I don't know how bad the drawbacks in this card are. I was using Terminate, but I think the extra red mana makes it not worth playing
I took out the thoughtseize and put some gitaxian probe. The thing about thoughtseize is that you gather information on your opponent's hand, but you have to waste your T1 resource. With Gitaxian you get a vision of what you are facing before using your available mana, which can lead you to a threatless delver or a manaseeking deathrite shaman or even to a 2 or 3 hit Cabal Therapy. Also I think that in the midgame thoughtseize haven't so much utility and you will always lose 2 life, while gitaxian probe gives you the chance to not lose 2 life and also buy a card. I mean Gitaxian probe in the worse case scenario will cost 1 mana to activate and get you another card.
I still have to test it all, but I guess we already have 8 counters and 4/8 disruption card (flashback, works really well if you have a YP on the battlefield), there's no need for more thoughtseize
I took out the terminate and tombstalker because the dependance of 2 BB or BR really sucks. That's also one of the reasons that I'm now running 2 badlands and no more basic lands. Also I've decided to put 2 more fetch lands instead of more dual lands due to having more opportunity to chose which mana you get (also the usual benefits from fetch lands, such as filtering lands, getting rid of 2 dead cards with brainstorm or ponder, activating after the Delver's trigger show you a bad draw, etc). This really doesn't need more than 6 mana generating lands, and if it weren't for wasteland we could run only 3.
I really like the Grixis Delver lists and I was one of the big advocates for playing it when the deck started to emerge, but it seemed to be short lived. I felt that Bob was actually great because your finding low cost spells that not only keep your opponent at bay but have the potential at netting you more YP tokens. That being said, Bob + FoW = bad, but I never really tested enough to know how bad.
I've experimented in the past with dropping Bob for DRS actually as well, and the curve improvement was pleasant. If you do run DRS, I'd recommend trying out 1 Tropical Island, if not in main then in board as that Green for creature removal can be amazing, and right now your only getting 2/3 of its power.
In this deck I am also a fan of Probe + Cabal main. I mean, the theoretical line of turn 1 DRS, into turn 2 YP + cabal is a nasty thought.
I'm personally against Ghastly Demise. I can only see it as a small quantity sideboard card, not a full set main board. I'd rather run Disfigures main board. And on not running Wasteland, this is still a tempo/delver deck. It has the same plan in resource denial. Also with running DRS (for those who do) Wasteland not only provides you with that land, but a land in their yard as well.
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GBR Elves UBR ANT R Burn
UR Gift Storm GB/GR/GW/G Karn Tron GW Aura RW Burn
GBWUR Child of Alara BWR Kaalia of the Vast UWR Narset, Enlightened Master GWR Uril, the Miststalker
"Whether you think you can, or think you can't, you're right." - Henry Ford
If I have a meta where almost everybody runs 0 basics, can I run ghost quarter instead of wasteland?:)
Also, I run the suicide package- all shocks n fetches. It's really funny to play but not as good as it should be.
I really like the Grixis Delver lists and I was one of the big advocates for playing it when the deck started to emerge, but it seemed to be short lived. I felt that Bob was actually great because your finding low cost spells that not only keep your opponent at bay but have the potential at netting you more YP tokens. That being said, Bob + FoW = bad, but I never really tested enough to know how bad.
I've experimented in the past with dropping Bob for DRS actually as well, and the curve improvement was pleasant. If you do run DRS, I'd recommend trying out 1 Tropical Island, if not in main then in board as that Green for creature removal can be amazing, and right now your only getting 2/3 of its power.
In this deck I am also a fan of Probe + Cabal main. I mean, the theoretical line of turn 1 DRS, into turn 2 YP + cabal is a nasty thought.
I'm personally against Ghastly Demise. I can only see it as a small quantity sideboard card, not a full set main board. I'd rather run Disfigures main board. And on not running Wasteland, this is still a tempo/delver deck. It has the same plan in resource denial. Also with running DRS (for those who do) Wasteland not only provides you with that land, but a land in their yard as well.
Grixis Delver in a vacuum is still an EXCELLENT deck. If I were to point towards any one reason as to why it more or less fell off it would be the printing of True-Name Nemesis. Not that TNN itself is actually a problem for this deck; FAR from it actually. Threats like Delver and Tombstalker can fly overhead, Pyromancer swarms around TNN, and Deathrite Shaman and Lavamancer stay back and do any damage outside of combat. The only creature option that can't get through TNN to do damage is Bob, and if Bob is around drawing you cards who cares, right? Add onto that the fact that you're color combination gives you access to preemptive ways to deal with TNN ala targeted discard, reactive ways ala countermagic, and good ol' fashioned removal in the form of Edict effects.
The problem with TNN for this deck is that the metagame's reaction to TNN forced an influx of cards like Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution, and the like. The selling point of this deck over other Delver variants was Young Pyromancer over the other potential two drop beater slot where Stoneforge Mystic and Goyf compete. With the influx of -1/-1 effects Pyromancer has a hard time competing. The initial TNN explosion onto the scene has died down a bit, but the hate for it is still there (the hate could also be contributing to it's decline in popularity since release).
I think Grixis could still very much succeed post TNN, as I do think Pyromancer is THAT good even with the splash hate. Pyromancer is basically the best Quirion Dryad variant ever printed. "Grow" creatures have been historically powerful in Eternal Magic where we have so many cheap spells to grow them quickly, but the weakness was always that one removal spell stopped all of your hard work. It's no wonder that the strategies eventually stopped seeing play. Pyromancer's ability to grow horizontally rather than vertically, 1/1 bodies instead of +1/+1 tokens, solves that problem that grow strategies always had to deal with. There's a good reason why Pyromancer is a key part in a few Vintage strategies even.
All that said though, I definitely think the threat base has to move in the direction of something like 4 Delver, 4 Pyromancer, 4 Deathrite, 2 Tombstalker.
This kind of setup minimizes the effects of splash hate, with only Pyromancer and his army dying to the -1/-1 effects, and the Tombstalkers add a much needed non-fragile threat. There's a little bit of nonbo between Deathrite and Tombstalker, but there's a big jump in raw power by including him that I think makes up for it - I would cite the recent popularity in BUG Delver as a good example of these two coexisting. Without Tombstalker it can be very easy for something like Punishing Fire to just ruin your day. He makes the mana a little tougher with the double black, but Deathrite goes a long ways towards easing things out.
I haven't played Grixis in a while myself, but I've been itching to do some Delving again and this is my personal favorite variant so I'm getting back on board. Not sure on my spell suite yet, but I'm at least fairly set on the creatures. Testing, testing, and more testing will tell though.
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If he dies...it's not the end of the world. A competitive deck only has X removal spells. Throwing down an early Delver into YP or Confidant....the opponent can't really contain all of that. YP is yet another "must answer" creature. That's how I view him. With that being said, the number to play is somewhere between 3 and 4. I'm not playing this deck but from a building perspective, you really wanna push the YP machine. Multiple YP just get ridiculous.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
On the subject of 4 YP, he is insane. You really only need to stick one to win the game against most match ups. Even if he just comes down and eats a removal spell, then your delver or Bob gets to hang around. I would not go down to less than 4 in my list.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=298966
On Thunderous Wrath
Keon on MODO
a program of a slightly different strain.
Tonight my listeners, a new power will rise,
unleashed upon you all in this musical disguise.
Your cities turn to ash, for the broadcast is cursed.
The signal is peaking and can't be reversed.
If you choose my children, you can try to hide.
But I strongly suggest you run for your life."
-The Sermon 2, The Creepshow
In Delver, Bob and Young P we have 12 creatures that demand an answer or they win the game. We want 17-18 lands. We want 28 spells. That gives us 2 or 3 slots for other creatures. We don't want to brainstorm turn 1, but we will ponder. That gives us 8 turn 1 plays not including GLM. If we want more turn 1 plays, then I recommend thoughtseize over DRS and GLM over both of them.
Whenever a player taps a nonbasic land, [Card] deals 2 damage to them.
-or-
R
Whenever a player would gain life, flip a coin. If heads, that player loses that much life instead. If tails sacrifice [card] and that player gains that life as per usual.
Fires Rf Salvation
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=298966
On Thunderous Wrath
Keon on MODO
"I'll Brainstorm off Jace"
"In response I'll cast notion thief, drawing 3 and you put 2 cards on top of your library"
Obvs its pretty narrow, but when it hits, it hits HARD. As evidence I site the following: http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/405522193?t=12h27m40s
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=298966
On Thunderous Wrath
Keon on MODO
I know the interaction...I just feel it's such a caddy-corner case. Cool to know someone took advantage of the scenario. But how frequently are you pulling it off? One could argue a lone EE or something in a 3 or 4 (DRS) color deck accomplishes more as a caddy corner card.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
The answer to "how often" is pretty much never. Having 4 lands untapped when they resolve JTMS and BS is pretty unlikely. If you wait for the second or third BS, then they probably have an answer.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=298966
On Thunderous Wrath
Keon on MODO
Anyways...
So I feel like bob wouldnt really fit into this. As much as he would seem to work with death shadow, it just feels to uncontrolled. And with everything else in the deck hurting you, tis just to much.
Grim lavamancer just never seemed to work to well with Tombstalker, maybe I could use one.
And for the blue blasts. I feel burn would just be an horrible match up, and blue blast can deal with everything in that deck,
it can also get rid of bloodmoons
I Know its much different then everything else here, but id still like opinions,
1Island
2Watery Grave
1Underground Sea
1Badlands
1Blood Crypt
8 Fetches
I used to have 2 tropicals instead of the blood cyprr and island. But it always just felt like I was getting locker out of black to much and not being able to cast deaths shadow and tombstalker .
As for what creatures a grixis deck should be running, I think there are 4-5 very clear cut options:
4 DRS/lavamancer - depending on whether you want to accelerate yourself (DRS) or control the board more (GL).
4 Delver - clearly.
2/3 TNN - he closes out games on his own, and can't be removed. He lets you focus on developing and protecting your other threats.
2 Tombstalker - Dodges everything except for swords and dismember, hits for 5 in the air.
This is almost verbatim the list that many of the more successful GRUB delver lists use, though they replace the TNN with goyf. Since we don't have goyf, TNN is our next best option.
As for why these are likely the best cards for the job: individually, they are all capable of closing out games; DRS will accelerate you, and give you reach that is difficult to prevent (effectively evasive damage). Delver is cheap, efficient, and easy to protect, as well as being evasive. The same goes for both TNN and Tombstalker, which require minimal protection on your part, and will put the opponent under constant pressure when they land. Supported with bolt and DRS, both will end games in short order.
Really, what you want in a tempo deck is pressure and disruption. We have plenty of disruption, but the creature package is just as important, because the more efficient it is, the better your disruption becomes. If your opponent only has 1 or 2 cards in his/her deck that can reliably kill your threats, then you only need to counter 1 or 2 spells. If you run out bob or YP, you need to protect them from from pretty much everything, since they die to a stiff breeze. Even then, they are more about advancing a long term game plan rather than imminently ending the game, so you need to protect them for a comparatively long time compared to your other threats.
All true, but grixis has access to lightning bolt, which is huge. Plus, we get skullcrack and shattering spree against Patriot delver, marsh casualties for fighting off opposing TNN decks, pyroblast, and red elemental blast for punishing blue on top of an already strong counter package, and access to cards like hymn to tourach and sinkhole the same as team america does. We don't have goyf, but tombstalker is often bigger, and much more resilient anyway, and TNN is still good, even without equipment. Back him up with lightning bolts and burn from DRS/GL, and he'll definitely get there.
I mean, green is strong (understatement of 2013), but red is often a deadlier opponent due to its ability to win out of nowhere. A grixis deck should be bristling with burn and threats that allow it to win even from a disadvantaged position on the field, especially when all of its threats deal evasive damage. I mean, why do you care if your opponent has a good field developed if you're going to swing through and burn him down anyway? Red always has the advantage in a race, and unlike UWR delver, grixis won't be healing its opponents with swords to ploughshares.
I think grixis needs to be its own animal; all of the delver decks have their own respective strengths and weaknesses, and we need to figure out what the strengths and weaknesses of a grixis-based list are. I think the threats are there, but a lot of people have been building in the wrong direction. I would start with something like this:
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Wasteland
4 Delver of Secrets
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Tombstalker
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
2 Spellpierce
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
2 Sinkhole
4 Stifle
From here, you'd work out whether or not stifle and sinkhole are really worthwhile in your meta. Maybe having the sinkholes be additional burn or disruption would be better. The sinkholes could easily be another 2 spellpierce for example, or even forked bolt or chain lightning.
I think the strategy for a list like this would be to control your opponent's mana, whilst sticking an early DRS and accelerating yourself using your opponent's dead lands. DRS also lets you do things like tap out, and still stifle your opponent, since the fetch sacrifice is part of the cost. It goes to the GY with the ability on the stack, and you exile the land to stifle it. You can catch players out this way. The bloodstained mire is there because it grabs all of our blue sources, without being a blue fetch, meaning you can lead with it on the play, and stifle your opponent when they misread your deck. At that stage, you have a pretty big tempo lead. If you land a DRS on the second turn, your opponent is faced with having to remove it through counter magic.
Then you have pretty gross plays like the infamous turn 2 TNN, enabled by DRS. It may not be the quickest, but it puts them on a hard to kill clock, which is the important thing. Against any red player, your effective life total is always 17, not 20, which makes TNN that much harder to deal with for your opponent. THey're essentially getting bolted every turn, and sooner or later, you'll back that up with lightning bolts, and additional threats. That's not so easy to deal with when you may only have 5-6 turns left.
I think the deck is there, and I think it has the potential to be very solid. The major problem as I see it is that people tend to incorporate card advantage into their tempo decks, when what they really want is time advantage. You want to prolong the early game, where your threats and disruption are strongest. Failing that, you want to dominate the field with threats that are hard for your opponent to deal with. Card advantage is less important than closing a game out.
hmmm, thinking about it, maybe those two sinkholes should just be chain lightnings or forked bolts. That gives us quite a bit of reach and removal, and -- as you mentioned -- fills our gy efficiently. Our counter package is a bit lighter than some of the other delver builds, but our beats should be a lot harder to deal with. Not to mention, we have the potential to be faster out of the gate due to DRS.
I'm not too worried about combo for the most part, since we should have a pretty decent match-up anyway. Thoughtseize and surgicals in the SB would help, maybe even gilded drake if show and tell is a problem in your area. We can't really exile creatures from the gy with DRS since we don't run green (which is fine imo, adding green makes things too difficult, and DRS is still one of the best creatures ever printed even without his third ability), but we still have good tools at our disposal. Stifle is troublesome for storm, especially in addition to our regular counter package, and one or two pieces in the sideboard (maybe the 4th fow as you suggested) should make it a tough match for them to navigate.
[edit: just had an idea -- how about izzet charm? Might be stupid, but the looting mode fills our yard for tombstalker, and it's an additional piece of removal, or a conditional counter. It costs UR, but it might be worth testing, since it should dig us pretty quick, and we can pitch any extra lands we find, and still get value out of them with DRS/tombstalker.]
This was the original post for my grixis list
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
And though not explicitly said yet, unearthing a vexing devil does give another chance to deal 4 damage. Vexing devil, take 4 -> unearth devil, take 4; 8 damage for 2 here was common.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I think you would have to choose between lavamancer and tombstalker, as they're pretty anti-synergistic. It's a shame, because being able to have both would be ridiculously powerful.
I think I'm settling on the list I outlined earlier, only taking out the sinkholes, and replacing them with chain lightnings. I think the added reach will prove pretty powerful, and with tombstalker, DRS and delver, it shouldn't fold to the TNN-hate that is being played at the moment. I'll test izzet charm when I get the chance, though I suspect it's not really needed in the list, and is too expensive and conditional for what we're after.
Also, vexing devil with unearth seems like it would be good!
Deck:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
2 Tombstalker
2 Baleful Strix
Spells: 33
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Terminate
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
About the land choises, I like having at least one of the basic lands because of price of progress, back to basics, wasteland and blood moon... I just think its worth the risk, and personally its very rare for me to get manalocked because of basic lands. Also I prefer having more fetch lands to filter the deck and searching for the lands I will use than just using them in first place.
People usually use wasteland, but that's so predictable and not so useful if you only have wasteland (without any other sources of land destroying).
Also I'm torn about having terminate or dreadbore. I havent seen so many planeswalkers lately in my meta, and the real difference between them is losing the instant speed of terminate.
I haven't played it yet, but I think it will perform well... It has 6 sources of discard and 11 sources of counter, with a total of 17 spells to beat the opponent before they even see the battlefield, and 8 creature destroying sources (I thought about having more creature destroying sources, but theres a lot of combo in my meta and sometimes they would be useless)
I thought about TNN but it is really heavy for the deck, and having an almost indestructible but only 3 beater for 3cc (considering I have 22 spells that help me getting rid of creatures, in the opponent hand or out of it) doesn't seem really helpful for me. I'd rather get a baleful strix that helps me beating land units such as goyfs and batterskull and also gets me a card advantage
Also I like bob a lot, but I have 6 spells that cost over 5cc, and I rather get them than bob.
About the sideboard, I haven't really thought about it yet, but it will be the basic with engineered plague, submerge and stuff like that
yeah, I'm intended to use only 15 lands, without wasteland which is pretty much the same manabase as the 19 land decks with 4 wasteland
I've never seen it before in the games I played, but unearth really seems an interesting choise, I just dont know what to take off... 1cc to get back almost any creature you got back, even with a lot of StP and without vexing it seems really good
Maybe get out the inquisitions and getting 2 or 3 sided cabal therapy for game 2 or 3, leaves me 2 slots in the maindeck to unearth
I'm thinking about taking off the tombstalker and getting some dark confidants, so that my game would be more about control and I wouldn't have to worry about losing 8 life for Tombstalker with bob. I've also put Cabal Therapy instead of Inquisition of Kozilek because of the sinergy between Cabal Therapy and Thoughtseize/Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy and Young Pyromancer. The Baleful Strix would be sided 2 of them against large monsters.
I've cut Terminate to a 2 of, because I've already got a lot of counters and discards so that the enemy creatures barely see the battlefield, then I guess 6 removal spells are enough. Maybe some creature removal for the side would work well
This is really a test deck so that I can test the real interactions between the cards and how they work in my meta (with a lot of delver decks and combos). I'll be posting the results within a week.
By the way, I'm thinking maybe the deck lacks of finishing moves, but let's see how it really works. About the 14 lands, with a land and deathrite shaman I have all the mana I need, so I dont really think that it's necessary much more lands
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
3 Dark Confidant
4 Shadowrite Shaman
Spells: 31
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Force of Will
4 Daze
3 Thoughtseize
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Terminate
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Bloodstained Mire
About the manabase I really felt it's "greedyness", basics really dont go along with this deck. Not the way its made since the three colors are really important, not only blue
I feel like dark confidant is really good but he is kinda fragile and he's another 2 drop creature. Young Pyromancer seems to be the star in this deck, also delver of secrets sets a really fast clock and deathrite shaman does all you need so I don't think bob is better than any of these creatures. Also, in a delver/YP deck, excessive creatures don't use to have a really good result after all
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Young Pyromancer
Sorceries and Instants: 32
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Ghastly Demise
2 Volcanic Island
2 Badlands
2 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scalding Tarn
By the same thought as we had on tombstalker (delver decks use to have a pretty loaded graveyard), I'm thinking about Ghastly Demise. I dont really know how effective it is because my city lacks of tournaments in this part of the year but still I see a lot of potential in this card, and I don't know how bad the drawbacks in this card are. I was using Terminate, but I think the extra red mana makes it not worth playing
I took out the thoughtseize and put some gitaxian probe. The thing about thoughtseize is that you gather information on your opponent's hand, but you have to waste your T1 resource. With Gitaxian you get a vision of what you are facing before using your available mana, which can lead you to a threatless delver or a manaseeking deathrite shaman or even to a 2 or 3 hit Cabal Therapy. Also I think that in the midgame thoughtseize haven't so much utility and you will always lose 2 life, while gitaxian probe gives you the chance to not lose 2 life and also buy a card. I mean Gitaxian probe in the worse case scenario will cost 1 mana to activate and get you another card.
I still have to test it all, but I guess we already have 8 counters and 4/8 disruption card (flashback, works really well if you have a YP on the battlefield), there's no need for more thoughtseize
I took out the terminate and tombstalker because the dependance of 2 BB or BR really sucks. That's also one of the reasons that I'm now running 2 badlands and no more basic lands. Also I've decided to put 2 more fetch lands instead of more dual lands due to having more opportunity to chose which mana you get (also the usual benefits from fetch lands, such as filtering lands, getting rid of 2 dead cards with brainstorm or ponder, activating after the Delver's trigger show you a bad draw, etc). This really doesn't need more than 6 mana generating lands, and if it weren't for wasteland we could run only 3.
I really like the Grixis Delver lists and I was one of the big advocates for playing it when the deck started to emerge, but it seemed to be short lived. I felt that Bob was actually great because your finding low cost spells that not only keep your opponent at bay but have the potential at netting you more YP tokens. That being said, Bob + FoW = bad, but I never really tested enough to know how bad.
I've experimented in the past with dropping Bob for DRS actually as well, and the curve improvement was pleasant. If you do run DRS, I'd recommend trying out 1 Tropical Island, if not in main then in board as that Green for creature removal can be amazing, and right now your only getting 2/3 of its power.
In this deck I am also a fan of Probe + Cabal main. I mean, the theoretical line of turn 1 DRS, into turn 2 YP + cabal is a nasty thought.
I'm personally against Ghastly Demise. I can only see it as a small quantity sideboard card, not a full set main board. I'd rather run Disfigures main board. And on not running Wasteland, this is still a tempo/delver deck. It has the same plan in resource denial. Also with running DRS (for those who do) Wasteland not only provides you with that land, but a land in their yard as well.
UBR ANT
R Burn
GB/GR/GW/G Karn Tron
GW Aura
RW Burn
BWR Kaalia of the Vast
UWR Narset, Enlightened Master
GWR Uril, the Miststalker
Also, I run the suicide package- all shocks n fetches. It's really funny to play but not as good as it should be.
Grixis Delver in a vacuum is still an EXCELLENT deck. If I were to point towards any one reason as to why it more or less fell off it would be the printing of True-Name Nemesis. Not that TNN itself is actually a problem for this deck; FAR from it actually. Threats like Delver and Tombstalker can fly overhead, Pyromancer swarms around TNN, and Deathrite Shaman and Lavamancer stay back and do any damage outside of combat. The only creature option that can't get through TNN to do damage is Bob, and if Bob is around drawing you cards who cares, right? Add onto that the fact that you're color combination gives you access to preemptive ways to deal with TNN ala targeted discard, reactive ways ala countermagic, and good ol' fashioned removal in the form of Edict effects.
The problem with TNN for this deck is that the metagame's reaction to TNN forced an influx of cards like Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution, and the like. The selling point of this deck over other Delver variants was Young Pyromancer over the other potential two drop beater slot where Stoneforge Mystic and Goyf compete. With the influx of -1/-1 effects Pyromancer has a hard time competing. The initial TNN explosion onto the scene has died down a bit, but the hate for it is still there (the hate could also be contributing to it's decline in popularity since release).
I think Grixis could still very much succeed post TNN, as I do think Pyromancer is THAT good even with the splash hate. Pyromancer is basically the best Quirion Dryad variant ever printed. "Grow" creatures have been historically powerful in Eternal Magic where we have so many cheap spells to grow them quickly, but the weakness was always that one removal spell stopped all of your hard work. It's no wonder that the strategies eventually stopped seeing play. Pyromancer's ability to grow horizontally rather than vertically, 1/1 bodies instead of +1/+1 tokens, solves that problem that grow strategies always had to deal with. There's a good reason why Pyromancer is a key part in a few Vintage strategies even.
All that said though, I definitely think the threat base has to move in the direction of something like 4 Delver, 4 Pyromancer, 4 Deathrite, 2 Tombstalker.
This kind of setup minimizes the effects of splash hate, with only Pyromancer and his army dying to the -1/-1 effects, and the Tombstalkers add a much needed non-fragile threat. There's a little bit of nonbo between Deathrite and Tombstalker, but there's a big jump in raw power by including him that I think makes up for it - I would cite the recent popularity in BUG Delver as a good example of these two coexisting. Without Tombstalker it can be very easy for something like Punishing Fire to just ruin your day. He makes the mana a little tougher with the double black, but Deathrite goes a long ways towards easing things out.
I haven't played Grixis in a while myself, but I've been itching to do some Delving again and this is my personal favorite variant so I'm getting back on board. Not sure on my spell suite yet, but I'm at least fairly set on the creatures. Testing, testing, and more testing will tell though.