Woops. Was building the Modern version... Though I mostly came here because people that play Legacy are generally more knowledgable.
If I was building a modern burn deck I would build it more towards sligh style, only because modern don't have Fireblast, POP and Chain and there is a good number of creatures that are not currently played in legacy burn list (only because we don't have room for them)
The only time I saw Forbidden Orchard being good was in Oath of Druids. I'm not sure how well this card is played in modern but I guess your using it with you spells that target a creature then opponent...
Shard Volley looks promising and I know this card sucks with fireblast (boy did I hate how the original legacy burn thread advocated Shard Volley as an awesome burn spell) Therefore it might be safe to play 2 or 3.
Molten Rain & Flames of the Blood Hand might be best as 1cc or 2cc creatures
I have always liked Vexing Devil but the card is routinely ripped for being a poor choice for burn b/c it suffers from punisher card syndrome. In a competitive setting, punisher cards are always viewed by their worst case scenario (even if this isn't always correct). For the devil, this means you will rarely see the 4 damage to the dome, thus making the card simply another creature which probably won't live long enough to do any damage on the ground either because A) he doesn't have haste/trample. B) His butt is too small to survive bolts or any other removal for that matter. Add the fact that he's pretty much a garbage top deck after turn 4 in most cases and you can make a pretty sound argument that the card simply isn't good enough.
While this line of thought isn't wrong, it is wrong to assume that you will always get zero sum value out of the card. However, perhaps the biggest question surrounding the card other than group think (which always needs to be revisited in decks due to meta changes making some cards better/worse) is what are you NOT including in your deck by playing devil?
I have a love/hate relationship with the card on a competitive level and a love relationship with it on a casual level. YMMV on either front.
Being a modern burn player, I'm trying to build legacy burn. I would your guy's opinions on my list as you guys would know best as expert burn players. I've never played any legacy but watch my share of matches in person and online. This is my list that I'm working on:
For years now, people keep bringing up the black splash in Legacy Burn. I won't say that it's bad. But it's not necessary. And it's not optimal. And frankly, since Eidolon of the Great Revel became the new all star of Burn there's just not room for it. Don't forget that Eidolon is never by itself in the SCG lists. It is always paired with some combination of Searing Blaze and Searing Blood. People I talk to so easily skip over those cards in the list and just fixate on Eidolon. But Blaze and Blood let you break the symmetry of Eidolon squarely in your favor. By the time you add in Eidolon and some combination of Blaze and Blood you no longer really have room for a maindeck black splash. And don't forget that you might want 1-2 Sulfuric Vortex main depending on the metagame you expect.
I agree that a black splash for Tyrants Choice and Bump isn't necessary because 1: there are substitutes in red for them and 2: it adds the weakness of playing 2 colors. However I was thinking of trying out deaths shadow in a black build, because I find myself dealing myself a lot of damage between rifts, fetches, price and now eidolons. Might give a distance advantage over aggro decks and protection against sideboard.
Green might be a good splash color if only for destructive revelry.
Also, is out a consensus that lavamancer is no longer optimal? Personally I never really liked him cause I thought he was too slow and a poor top deck.
For years now, people keep bringing up the black splash in Legacy Burn. I won't say that it's bad. But it's not necessary. And it's not optimal. And frankly, since Eidolon of the Great Revel became the new all star of Burn there's just not room for it. Don't forget that Eidolon is never by itself in the SCG lists. It is always paired with some combination of Searing Blaze and Searing Blood. People I talk to so easily skip over those cards in the list and just fixate on Eidolon. But Blaze and Blood let you break the symmetry of Eidolon squarely in your favor. By the time you add in Eidolon and some combination of Blaze and Blood you no longer really have room for a maindeck black splash. And don't forget that you might want 1-2 Sulfuric Vortex main depending on the metagame you expect.
I run the black for an additional bolt. Most lists seem to hardly run Shard Volley due to fireblast already destroying 2 mountains so that's one bolt out. And like someone said, flame rift might replace tyrants choice but it's bad synergy with eidolon.
-1 Searing Blaze, +1 Sulfuric Vortex
-3 Grim Lavamancer, +3 Keldon Marauders if much Goyf, or +3 Gut Shot if much D&T.
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I've been working on building this of late. I'm a big fan of destructive revelry should Leyline come up. Thoughts on running Taiga/fetches to sideboard Destructive Revelry?
I have not touched my burn list in ages but I want to update it. After seeing Howl of the Horde I got to wondering, would that be viable in this list just because of what it does with fire-blast on turn 3, or is that a bit too cute of a combo. It does work in later turns as well though burn should not be getting to those turns all that often.
I have not touched my burn list in ages but I want to update it. After seeing Howl of the Horde I got to wondering, would that be viable in this list just because of what it does with fire-blast on turn 3, or is that a bit too cute of a combo. It does work in later turns as well though burn should not be getting to those turns all that often.
lol that is so interesting, I didn't think of fireblast I was thinking of bolt and I was like... 3cc (with attack +1cc = 9 damage. Turn 4... now with fireblast turn 3 = 12 damage (that is whack!)
A) Never want to see more than one of
B) requires 2 other cards (creature in play and fireblast in hand) to work
C) Is sorcery speed
The upside is obviously there, and it is not dead on turn 4 since you can goblin guide and then fireblast combo, but I think it may be too cute. My thoughts right now are to include 1-2 copies in a deck since that way you will almost never see multiples and see how that plays out. You may have to up the creature count in the list too since Vexing devil is not a reliable attacker, but I am totally unsure what other creature you would run other than the usual subjects. Right now, without seeing other cards, my list is going to look like this:
I think I sorta just like howl more than a 3rd price of progress, since Price of Progress is just a dead card in some matches preboard. This one is likely not dead, just tricky to pull off. I like the Marauders just because they usually can attack turn 3 as people will often not waste a removal spell on them so that would help trigger this, but Ash Zealot is a pretty tempting option as well because of the haste to turn on howl on later turns.
That singleton Furnace scamp is in there for lack of a better idea. I think this deck needs extra one drop creatures to activate Howl as well as enabling the full value from Searing Blaze.
I assume you are talking about Leyline of Sanctity since void is not a concern.
I am of the school of thought that No, you shouldn't splash to hate on leyline. The deck has enough non targeted ways to win the game through a leyline, and if you run enough bodies all of your burn can be turned into removal to punch a hole for goblin guide and crew to win like it was a sligh deck.
The duals main deck make you vulnerable to your own Price of progresses as well as wastelands and in the preboard are strictly worse. Post board they can still be strictly worse unless you can bring in revelry to target something, and just 4 duals and no fetches means you may not even see them when you need them.
It would be better in my eyes to instead bring in more hate creatures or non targeted burn and win though means more in line with what the deck is supposed to do.
Thoughts on Running 4 Taiga in order to sideboard Destructive revelry in case you run into a leyline?
I'd probably only do that if your build was running Fetches and at that point I'd rather maindeck them. I use Anarchy in my build which is a bit slower, but the people in my local playgroup run 3-4x Leylines in their sideboard due to a heavy burn/storm presence.
Thoughts on Running 4 Taiga in order to sideboard Destructive revelry in case you run into a leyline?
I actually tried this, but with only 1 Taiga and a fetch-heavy Lavamancer build. It works as advertised.
Wasteland is almost never a problem, and by 'almost' I mean that nothing bad ever happened to me in testing and games because of it due to Wasteland and Price of Progress. Sometimes it was even nice to bait a Wasteland, setting my opponent back a land drop and giving me another draw step to get a burn spell. Fireblast was very useful in getting rid of the vulnerable land as well. This type of build works pretty well with 20 or 21 land, so pretty heavy.
I'm pretty confident that 4 Taiga would have been awful though. That's a number that will ensure Wasteland problems. The more modest splash in a fetchland build is very achievable. I'm not sure that it's necessary now that we've been given Eidolon of the Great Revel though.
^^^ is this saying to run more? some of these lists run a random skullcrack as well. and i personally run 3 vortex with one in board just in case but with eidolon, it speeds the clock. we can also just kill mystic and prolong batterskull from entering
The winning lists are running 3 IIRC.
IMO, burn has gone from a DIY budget list with 15-20 flex slots to a solid 56+ cards where you don't experiment much outside of Flame Rift, PoP, or Vortex numbers and mild land splashes.
The deck would be much scarier in the format if the people running it didn't move on to new decks and stopped trying to fix something that isn't broken.
Because
(1) It is a 3cmc spell.
(2) isn't fantastic in multiples
(3) is a 3cmc spell.
(4) is a 3cmc spell.
This. Also, Vortex is good SB card, but is not as good in the maindeck as it use to be due to Abrupt Decay, the increased number of creatures in decks, and Ediolon being good enough to warrant maindeck play. It's also only really amazing versus Miracles, and is good versus Blade if the board is kind of clear.
I agree on this being a deck where "don't fix it if it's not broken" applies, with a little room for flex slots. The SB is where you can experiment a bit more.
tyrants choice is a strict upgrade to flame rift, and being in burn you can never have to many cards that read "deal 3 damage / opponent loses 3 life"
as for the splash making it "weaker" I only see an opinion like that if we were playing 3 colors in standard. Does having 2 badlands turn on their wastelands? Obviously but you know what's a great way to not get (no pun intended) burned by wasteland? DONT PLAY INTO IT. Jesus if you have a fetch turn 1 and decide to fetch out a Badlands instead of mountain on the play against an unknown opponent, you get wasted and lose then it was your fault in the first place.
Honestly I love having the splash for the flexibility of Rakdos Charm. The card is an all-star, (on a funny side note, I've beaten elves with this card). Also don't forget if you're playing against a reanimator deck, it's always nice to not lose to a turn 2 Iona because you didnt draw a sideboard card like Macabre, leyline, or whatever other gy hoser you have.
I have not touched my burn list in ages but I want to update it. After seeing Howl of the Horde I got to wondering, would that be viable in this list just because of what it does with fire-blast on turn 3, or is that a bit too cute of a combo. It does work in later turns as well though burn should not be getting to those turns all that often.
If I was building a modern burn deck I would build it more towards sligh style, only because modern don't have Fireblast, POP and Chain and there is a good number of creatures that are not currently played in legacy burn list (only because we don't have room for them)
The only time I saw Forbidden Orchard being good was in Oath of Druids. I'm not sure how well this card is played in modern but I guess your using it with you spells that target a creature then opponent...
Shard Volley looks promising and I know this card sucks with fireblast (boy did I hate how the original legacy burn thread advocated Shard Volley as an awesome burn spell) Therefore it might be safe to play 2 or 3.
Molten Rain & Flames of the Blood Hand might be best as 1cc or 2cc creatures
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While this line of thought isn't wrong, it is wrong to assume that you will always get zero sum value out of the card. However, perhaps the biggest question surrounding the card other than group think (which always needs to be revisited in decks due to meta changes making some cards better/worse) is what are you NOT including in your deck by playing devil?
I have a love/hate relationship with the card on a competitive level and a love relationship with it on a casual level. YMMV on either front.
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Blood Crypt
2 badlands
4 Vexing Devil
4 Lightning Bolt
4 chain lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Bump in the Night
2 Shard Volley
3 fireblast
3 price of progress
Currently no sb. This was made when I wasn't considering Eidolon but in my modern list I have 3 and I agree that it needs to be in the list
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Green might be a good splash color if only for destructive revelry.
Also, is out a consensus that lavamancer is no longer optimal? Personally I never really liked him cause I thought he was too slow and a poor top deck.
I run the black for an additional bolt. Most lists seem to hardly run Shard Volley due to fireblast already destroying 2 mountains so that's one bolt out. And like someone said, flame rift might replace tyrants choice but it's bad synergy with eidolon.
-3 Grim Lavamancer, +3 Keldon Marauders if much Goyf, or +3 Gut Shot if much D&T.
Return to your previous list once you have the Foothills.
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lol that is so interesting, I didn't think of fireblast I was thinking of bolt and I was like... 3cc (with attack +1cc = 9 damage. Turn 4... now with fireblast turn 3 = 12 damage (that is whack!)
Now it's a card worth looking into
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What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
A) Never want to see more than one of
B) requires 2 other cards (creature in play and fireblast in hand) to work
C) Is sorcery speed
The upside is obviously there, and it is not dead on turn 4 since you can goblin guide and then fireblast combo, but I think it may be too cute. My thoughts right now are to include 1-2 copies in a deck since that way you will almost never see multiples and see how that plays out. You may have to up the creature count in the list too since Vexing devil is not a reliable attacker, but I am totally unsure what other creature you would run other than the usual subjects. Right now, without seeing other cards, my list is going to look like this:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
3 Searing Blaze
2 Price of Progress
2 Howl of the Horde
4 Goblin Guide
1 Furnace Scamp
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Vexing Devil
I think I sorta just like howl more than a 3rd price of progress, since Price of Progress is just a dead card in some matches preboard. This one is likely not dead, just tricky to pull off. I like the Marauders just because they usually can attack turn 3 as people will often not waste a removal spell on them so that would help trigger this, but Ash Zealot is a pretty tempting option as well because of the haste to turn on howl on later turns.
That singleton Furnace scamp is in there for lack of a better idea. I think this deck needs extra one drop creatures to activate Howl as well as enabling the full value from Searing Blaze.
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Why not run Grim Lavamancer? 1 drop, can get value out of him even if he can't attack.
Thoughts on Running 4 Taiga in order to sideboard Destructive revelry in case you run into a leyline?
I am of the school of thought that No, you shouldn't splash to hate on leyline. The deck has enough non targeted ways to win the game through a leyline, and if you run enough bodies all of your burn can be turned into removal to punch a hole for goblin guide and crew to win like it was a sligh deck.
The duals main deck make you vulnerable to your own Price of progresses as well as wastelands and in the preboard are strictly worse. Post board they can still be strictly worse unless you can bring in revelry to target something, and just 4 duals and no fetches means you may not even see them when you need them.
It would be better in my eyes to instead bring in more hate creatures or non targeted burn and win though means more in line with what the deck is supposed to do.
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I'd probably only do that if your build was running Fetches and at that point I'd rather maindeck them. I use Anarchy in my build which is a bit slower, but the people in my local playgroup run 3-4x Leylines in their sideboard due to a heavy burn/storm presence.
R/W Devotion
Mono-R Devotion
Legacy
Burn
Punishing Jund
I actually tried this, but with only 1 Taiga and a fetch-heavy Lavamancer build. It works as advertised.
Wasteland is almost never a problem, and by 'almost' I mean that nothing bad ever happened to me in testing and games because of it due to Wasteland and Price of Progress. Sometimes it was even nice to bait a Wasteland, setting my opponent back a land drop and giving me another draw step to get a burn spell. Fireblast was very useful in getting rid of the vulnerable land as well. This type of build works pretty well with 20 or 21 land, so pretty heavy.
I'm pretty confident that 4 Taiga would have been awful though. That's a number that will ensure Wasteland problems. The more modest splash in a fetchland build is very achievable. I'm not sure that it's necessary now that we've been given Eidolon of the Great Revel though.
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IMO, burn has gone from a DIY budget list with 15-20 flex slots to a solid 56+ cards where you don't experiment much outside of Flame Rift, PoP, or Vortex numbers and mild land splashes.
The deck would be much scarier in the format if the people running it didn't move on to new decks and stopped trying to fix something that isn't broken.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
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(1) It is a 3cmc spell.
(2) isn't fantastic in multiples
(3) is a 3cmc spell.
(4) is a 3cmc spell.
This. Also, Vortex is good SB card, but is not as good in the maindeck as it use to be due to Abrupt Decay, the increased number of creatures in decks, and Ediolon being good enough to warrant maindeck play. It's also only really amazing versus Miracles, and is good versus Blade if the board is kind of clear.
I agree on this being a deck where "don't fix it if it's not broken" applies, with a little room for flex slots. The SB is where you can experiment a bit more.
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blood
3 flame rift
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 grim lavamancer
4 eidolon of the great revel
17 Mountain
2 barbarian ring
3 ensnaring bridge
3 mindbreak trap
3 pyroblast
2 vexing shusher
2 smash to smithereens
1 relic of progenitus
1 sulfuric vortex
Beat Jund, a more creature based burn deck, death and taxes (+2 ID to top 8) then merfolk, Junk & shardless BUG.
Changes I will be making:
MD
-3 flame rift
+1 searing blood
+1 grim lavamancer
+1 skullcrack
-2 barbarian ring
+2 mountain
SB
-2 vexing shusher
+1 smash to smithereens
+1 relic of progenitus
Ensnaring Bridge was great. The difference maker in 3 matches. Eidolon is pretty good too.
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as for the splash making it "weaker" I only see an opinion like that if we were playing 3 colors in standard. Does having 2 badlands turn on their wastelands? Obviously but you know what's a great way to not get (no pun intended) burned by wasteland? DONT PLAY INTO IT. Jesus if you have a fetch turn 1 and decide to fetch out a Badlands instead of mountain on the play against an unknown opponent, you get wasted and lose then it was your fault in the first place.
Honestly I love having the splash for the flexibility of Rakdos Charm. The card is an all-star, (on a funny side note, I've beaten elves with this card). Also don't forget if you're playing against a reanimator deck, it's always nice to not lose to a turn 2 Iona because you didnt draw a sideboard card like Macabre, leyline, or whatever other gy hoser you have.
What is your thoughts on Deflecting Palm
-----------------------------------
Deflecting Palm RW
Instant
The next time a source of your choice would deal damage to you this turn, prevent that damage.
If damage is prevented this way, Deflecting Palm deals that much damage to that source's controller.
-----------------------------------
I like this card. Prevent a 7/7 demon or 15/15 and deal that much damage back... mega game changer.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!