Against black-based combo decks, answers on the table are much better than those in hand. The land-based answers are your best bets against an on-table Marit Lage, Emrakul, or Griselbrand, if you choose to go that way. Karakas is hands-down the best of the bunch, but there is something to be said for variety in the face of cards like Pithing Needle.
Against black-based combo decks, answers on the table are much better than those in hand. The land-based answers are your best bets against an on-table Marit Lage, Emrakul, or Griselbrand, if you choose to go that way. Karakas is hands-down the best of the bunch, but there is something to be said for variety in the face of cards like Pithing Needle.
Yea, i'd probably echo this. the karakas plan seems sound; better than glacial chasm at least. One other thing you can do is to try to speed your deck up. You'd expect post-board that they're going to shove in more disruption and artifact removal for things like bridge, so maybe it's worth to just speed up and kill them before they realise you didn't slow down to put hate in (its an ol' belcher side boarding trick).
Just curious, but if you play some number (3-4 probably) of light up the stage, it could help you with card numbers just to keep your velocity up on longer grinds. I have a burn 'tester' deck, that's a stock burn list, but with 2 Luts and 1 reforge the soul. it's not amazing, but it gives some long-game-game against grindy decks. has anyone run reforge the soul in burn to any amount of success?
Going consistently faster is certainly the most tried-and-true way to beat combo. Your hate cards, where you have them, need to consistently buy you at least one turn to be really worthwhile.
The issue with Miracle cards generally (including Reforge the Soul and Thunderous Wrath) is them being dead if you draw them in your opener, which is most of the cards you see in any given game you win. If Burn had a good pitch-value card the way blue has Force of Will, I'd definitely consider it. Unfortunately, Pyrokinesis is not where we want to be.
* Not getting a white mana, blows
* Getting Path to exile hit by Inquiz & Thoughtseize also blows
* Them getting a second 20/20 also blows. (Now, sure, they absolutely should be dead before a second one)
You have 8 fetchlands good chance in getting white mana. I'm playing with a splash of black, but I could play splash of white if necessary, and I don't get color screwed. To tell you the truth, I have more problems with Searing Blaze then I would have with finding the splash mana (more troubles as in holding a Searing Blaze and wishing I drew a land to drop)
There is a reason why Thoughtseize was almost 50 dollars a pop... The card doesn't suck.
Well I guess some players have all the luck... And I would fold if a second one enters the battlefield (the creature not land)
Alpine Moon seems idea but is very narrow. If it works, then that's your answer... But discarding is a reality, especially for Legacy.
If I were to play PtE--and I would not advise that anyone seriously consider doing so--I would not do this with less than an effective 14 sources of white mana to reliably remove a Griselbrand, Marit Lage, or other card as soon as turn 1. This probably ought to be in the form of 10 or 11 fetch lands and 3 or 4 Plateau.
Speeding up burn doesn't work. If you could, we would play it base deck.
Removing Griselbrand or Marit Lage doesn't seem the right way to do it.
To do so requires 2 cards, one of which needs to be in my hand.
Getting the answer card, and then getting spanked anyway, really gets me down.
And that is my problem. Discard in Legacy is common, especially facing those decks. They play discard to solve those problems.
The cheapest Thoughtseize is down to 15 bucks, Plateau is $180 (what, really?, no love for plateau compared with other Multi's)
Either way, I already got both, and that aint the issue.
The real problem is Dark Depths is a complete caning.
A complete, crushing defeat for burn.
4(?) months ago, I got utterly, totally destroyed by it.
We played our two tournament games in 5 minutes, then we played another 9 "games" in the next 25 minutes.
He won, over and over. I pulled the 2 games where he mulled to 4. My burn deck was just irrelevant.
Eleven games in half an hour is stupid.
It was so bad, I stopped playing Legacy. The format just seemed tainted.
Much later, I went to another store to play standard, but it didn't fire. So I played Legacy, with my Blue Standard deck.
Went 1/3, and had fun.
Then, Randomly, it happened again, and this time I had my Legacy burn, went 2/2. Which is fine.
So I played again, and sat down against Marit Lage. Got crushed on turn 2.
Then, as he mulligans and mumbles about me having a really strong chance, I tell him, 'Yeah, sure. You are still going to win'. He goes down to 4 cards, on the draw, and wins on his 3rd turn.
That aint happening again.
I do not care what else I need to sacrifice under the wheels.
I am going to stop that Juggernaut.
.
I am not going to get colour screwed while holding a Path.
I am not going to get the Plateau and have them discard my Path.
.
I have in sideboard 2xMaze of Ith & 2xIsland of Wak-Wak
I am going to have 4x Alpine Moon
If you're just trying to beat Depths, Alpine Moon will help. Don't expect it to have much other use, though. It's a very niche choice.
You can also decide to accept that Burn, like any other deck, has its bad matchups. It is particularly bad against A+B combo decks, including Reanimator, Depths, and SnT. At that point, you decide whether or not you are willing to accept that liability for the other advantages Burn offers. Burn has some very one-sided match ups, and if that bothers you enough then you will probably need to look for a different deck.
Getting the answer card, and then getting spanked anyway, really gets me down.
And that is my problem. Discard in Legacy is common, especially facing those decks. They play discard to solve those problems.
The cheapest Thoughtseize is down to 15 bucks, Plateau is $180 (what, really?, no love for plateau compared with other Multi's)
Either way, I already got both, and that aint the issue.
and this is why I suggested using shock lands
Sure you'll be soaked by some damage but the cost is far less for what you need to do.
My land solutions get destroyed by wastelands. (fetched by sylvan S / Expedition map)
My Path to Exile gets discarded by Thoughtseize/Duress/Inquiz or ignored by Sylvan safekeeper
My Alipine Moon gets killed by Abrupt decay / Assasins trophy
Oh my God
Ensnaring Bridge is pointless.
The land to cast it goes away, or the bridge gets discarded, or destroyed.
Blood Moon / Magus of the Moon seems hopeful.
Dark Depths just won my big local tourney, and took another top 8 place.
Meeeep !
My sideboard Does work against Dark Depth.
But I don't.
.
Game 1 I mulled to 6 and got him to 1 life
.
Game 2 I played an Alpine moon on turn 1, and the game went long...
I got him to 1, again, and the game stalled.
He played a Glacial Chasm, then copied it in his upkeep with a thespian stage so he did not have to pay for it.
Then he plays life from the loam drawing the Glacial chasm and junk
Then cycles a land, triggering the Life.
And the Glacial Chasm comes back into play.
This took some time.
Meanwhile, nothing is happening on my side of the fence.
After some turns of this he starts to deal me 2 damage with Punishing fire in my turn, and drawing it back into his hand by tapping a grove of Burnwilliows. Aethersworn Cannonist was slowing him down.
10 turns later, he is looking at me like, . . .Really? You are going to make me play this out?
He can never let the Chasm leave play, so he will never get to attack with a 20/20, even if he kills the Alpine moon.
And I draw Alpine Moon Number 2, name Glacial Chasm, and kill him.
.
Game 3, I stuff up royally.
Him - Land, Exploration, land
Me - Mountain Swiftspear
Him - Land, Thespian stage
Me - Barbarian Ring - Alpine Moon - Wait - Crop Rotation, Dark Depths, Win
Me - Mental anguish, looking at the second Alpine Moon in my hand, and the Island of Wak Wak I can't play because I played the Barbarian Ring
My deck gave me EXACTLY what I needed, and I did not play it.
All I had to do was first turn Alpine Moon, Turn 2 Alpine Moon & Island of Wak Wak then do the Happy dance.
Me so Dumb.
Oh well.
I allow myself to make each and every mistake once.
I aint doin' that again.
Grrrr.
But, against the Red/Green version, Yep, That 8 card dedicated sideboard does work.
Well, It should, if you tap the mountain and play the freakin' card on turn 1.
My sideboard Does work against Dark Depth.
But I don't.
.
Game 1 I mulled to 6 and got him to 1 life
.
Game 2 I played an Alpine moon on turn 1, and the game went long...
I got him to 1, again, and the game stalled.
He played a Glacial Chasm, then copied it in his upkeep with a thespian stage so he did not have to pay for it.
Then he plays life from the loam drawing the Glacial chasm and junk
Then cycles a land, triggering the Life.
And the Glacial Chasm comes back into play.
This took some time.
Meanwhile, nothing is happening on my side of the fence.
After some turns of this he starts to deal me 2 damage with Punishing fire in my turn, and drawing it back into his hand by tapping a grove of Burnwilliows. Aethersworn Cannonist was slowing him down.
10 turns later, he is looking at me like, . . .Really? You are going to make me play this out?
He can never let the Chasm leave play, so he will never get to attack with a 20/20, even if he kills the Alpine moon.
And I draw Alpine Moon Number 2, name Glacial Chasm, and kill him.
.
Game 3, I stuff up royally.
Him - Land, Exploration, land
Me - Mountain Swiftspear
Him - Land, Thespian stage
Me - Barbarian Ring - Alpine Moon - Wait - Crop Rotation, Dark Depths, Win
Me - Mental anguish, looking at the second Alpine Moon in my hand, and the Island of Wak Wak I can't play because I played the Barbarian Ring
My deck gave me EXACTLY what I needed, and I did not play it.
All I had to do was first turn Alpine Moon, Turn 2 Alpine Moon & Island of Wak Wak then do the Happy dance.
Me so Dumb.
Oh well.
I allow myself to make each and every mistake once.
I aint doin' that again.
Grrrr.
But, against the Red/Green version, Yep, That 8 card dedicated sideboard does work.
Well, It should, if you tap the mountain and play the freakin' card on turn 1.
I don't like Swiftspear because there are times you cannot pump them. I do play with 4 Vexing Devils. Please note: I'm not going to argue the pro's and con's about playing with a vexing devil, because the pro's and con's were created by players that never played with vexing devil. I believe if you were playing with a vexing devil instead of swiftspear you might had gotten over that 1 point hump. I do think you should play testing vexing devil first and judge for yourself.
Barbarian Ring is not a good card. We seldom get Threshold. I don't like it because you cannot sac it to a fireblast.
I'm not sure what happen with the Alpine Moon (Dark Depths should be a given targeted name). Game 3 you could had gotten the win.
If Iona is in play, it's over.
In play, she cuts off all our spells, obviously, and only in play creatures can do anything.
Just the way it is, but getting Iona in play does require some serious effort though.
You could go the big Colour Shift, of massed fetch lands, a Plateau and some path to exile, but, I wouldn't recommend it.
Barbarian Rings are one of the only 'normal' things you can do after Iona.
I like them, and i get it that most people do not play them purely because of the Fireblast problem.
Two Fireblasts in opening hand is why I only play 3 Fireblast. Getting to 4 land is just hard. Getting to 3 land is much easier. 3 land means I want one of them to be a Barabarian ring. They have won me games purely because they can not be counter spelled.
They mean I can play 20 land, deal more damage, and take less mulligans.
Mulligans are really regular with burn, and annoy me.
I don't play Vexing Devils. Sure, they are a reasonable card, but not for me.
Finale of Promise is a very spicy play.
Kudos if you can pull it off.
Sideboarding Karakas to bounce Iona isn't unheard of, but Reanimator could also go for Tidespout Tyrant and wreck you anyway. It's a bad matchup. Sometimes you just have to accept it, and in Burn's case that means accepting that fast combo wrecks you. Burn preys on fair decks.
So D&T, Grixis Control, Grixis Delver, Miracles, Maverick, UB Shadow, BUG, etc. don't exist? Weird. I wonder why they're listed as Legacy decks on mtggoldfish, then.
Legacy Burn folds pretty hard to combo. Burn can't win without paying quite a bit of mana or getting a lot of help from self damage. It's just not possible to cast 7 or 8 mana worth of cards to win on turn 2 in Burn. Storm could combo off well before that. Reanimator could put something into play well before that. Dredge could have lethal in play. That's just reality. What Burn can beat are the fair decks that are spending their time playing Ponder and Preordain and Baleful Strix. You want to play against a Force of Will deck that has 4 non-basics in play.
A fair deck is one that generally wins by paying mana for (rather than cheating with something like Sneak Attack) and then turning creatures sideways. There are a number of those decks. Many of them play blue, and thus play Force of Will, because they have to protect themselves from getting trucked on turn 1 by a fast combo deck.
"Fair blue decks" are a thing, they play Force, and that's the kind of deck Burn wants to play against. "Tarmogoyf decks" are what you want to play against, though it's been supplanted by Gurmag Angler.
Maybe you haven't played enough Legacy to recognize that there are a number of fair decks? That's the only reasonable explanation I can think of for the claim you're making right now. If you genuinely believe that Legacy has zero fair decks and that it's therefore completely built of fast combo decks, what are you doing playing Burn? You're just donating your entry fee. Burn cannot do well without the fair decks to prey on.
"A fair deck is one that generally wins by paying mana for (rather than cheating with something like Sneak Attack) and then turning creatures sideways."
Oh?
So, the definition of 'fair' is paying mana, yet "Many of them play blue, and thus play Force of Will".
Not paying mana for counterspells is fair
Not paying mana for wrath is fair (terminus)
Not paying mana for burn is fair (fireblast)
But, not paying mana for creatures is not fair
"Maybe you haven't played enough Legacy to recognize that there are a number of fair decks? That's the only reasonable explanation I can think of for the claim you're making right now."
Got it, I am ignorant or inexperienced. I must be, because I disagree.
(And find your point of view amusing.)
You're definitely incorrect that there are zero fair decks in Legacy.
Brian Braun-Duin clearly took crazy pills when he wrote this article and says things like this (as well as the phrase "fair blue decks"):
The power of Grixis Delver, as was the case previously, lies entirely in its threat base. Grixis can be a real pain for other fair decks to compete with, because the combination of Delver, Young Pyromancer, Bitterblossom, True-Name Nemesis, and Gurmag Angler represent cards that are all potent threats on their own and also require greatly different cards to answer them.
Not only is Grixis Delver a "fair deck", but that statement quite clearly implies that others also exist.
The people in this Reddit thread must be out of their minds, too. What mad-man would say that Maverick, Dead Guy Ale, Jund, Junk, Bant, BUG, Shardless (loved playing against that one, bummer it's gone), Goblins, and Grixis are "fair decks"? Answer: someone who knows what they're talking about.
"Fair" means that the deck wins by turning creatures sideways after more-or-less paying a normal rate for them (Gurmag Angler doesn't invalidate this), though Burn directly converting mana to damage in Burn spells makes Burn a fair deck as well (and Fireblast doesn't invalidate that). That means the deck doesn't win through comboing off and they don't do things like cheat in a 15/15 with Sneak/Show or reanimate a fatty on turn 1. Playing Force of Will doesn't make a deck unfair. Last I checked, the only situation in which Force of Will "wins" a game is when you cast it with it's alternate cost at 1 life and lose the game for it.
When someone talks about a "fair deck", they're characterizing the win condition in the deck. I think the issue is that I'm defining "fair deck" the way everyone else defines "fair deck" and you're using some definition that no one else uses. That more or less means that you're arguing from an incorrect position and are just flat out wrong. There are fair decks in Legacy, quite a few, in fact. When you claim there are none, it's correct to question your experience with the format because no one who has any experience with Legacy could say "Fair decks are not played in Legacy." with a straight face.
Yup. I am definitely wrong, handing out crazy pills, out of my mind, a mad-man, and don't know what I am talking about.
"When someone talks about a "fair deck", they're characterizing the win condition in the deck."
"Fair" means that the deck wins by turning creatures sideways after more-or-less paying a normal rate for them"
Oh.
Good to know the cool kids have a precise definition.
(And, Burn, PURE burn, is the literal definition of 'Unfair'. Oh. I am wrong again.)
"Fair" - "the deck doesn't win through comboing off and they don't do things like cheat in a 15/15 with Sneak/Show or reanimate a fatty on turn 1."
"Playing Force of Will doesn't make a deck unfair."
Right . . .
"I think the issue is that I'm defining "fair deck" the way everyone else defines "fair deck" and you're using some definition that no one else uses."
Yeah, I think you might just be onto something there.
I am using the word 'Fair' to mean fair. Weird Huh?
"That more or less means that you're arguing from an incorrect position and are just flat out wrong."
Got it.
I am wrong a lot, and Force of Will is the very definition of "Fair".
That's why I am playing 4 copies of Force of Will in Vintage, because it is fair.
And, using the cool kids definition, Vintage decks all play "Fair".
Strip Mine & Time Vault & Ancestral are all "Fair".
"There are fair decks in Legacy, quite a few, in fact."
So, the types of decks in Legacy are not Combo, Aggro and Control.
They are 'Unfair' & "Fair" - Rock on dude.
I am trying out Skewer & Light Up.
Cute that they get around Chalice.
On the draw, Eidolon have been distinctly average.
Most of my Blue opponents also seem to be playing massed discard, making the Exquisite Firecraft not particularly useful.
Alpine Moon is a very spicy meatball.
I am thinking of going up to 4 Light Up The Stage because it gives more access to turn 2 Alpine Moon.
I thought I clearly expressed precisely why FoW doesn't make a deck "unfair". FoW isn't a win condition. Tarmogoyf is a win condition. "Fair" doesn't mean that a deck pays exactly the cost in the top left of a bunch of copies of Gray Ogre and turns them sideways to win. I've explained this, and I encourage you to try reading it again before being unnecessarily sarcastic.
Pretty much everyone else who plays the format recognizes that there are fair decks and that there's even an entire class of decks called "fair blue decks". You can claim everyone else is wrong if you wish, but that's not reality.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Yea, i'd probably echo this. the karakas plan seems sound; better than glacial chasm at least. One other thing you can do is to try to speed your deck up. You'd expect post-board that they're going to shove in more disruption and artifact removal for things like bridge, so maybe it's worth to just speed up and kill them before they realise you didn't slow down to put hate in (its an ol' belcher side boarding trick).
Just curious, but if you play some number (3-4 probably) of light up the stage, it could help you with card numbers just to keep your velocity up on longer grinds. I have a burn 'tester' deck, that's a stock burn list, but with 2 Luts and 1 reforge the soul. it's not amazing, but it gives some long-game-game against grindy decks. has anyone run reforge the soul in burn to any amount of success?
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
The issue with Miracle cards generally (including Reforge the Soul and Thunderous Wrath) is them being dead if you draw them in your opener, which is most of the cards you see in any given game you win. If Burn had a good pitch-value card the way blue has Force of Will, I'd definitely consider it. Unfortunately, Pyrokinesis is not where we want to be.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
You have 8 fetchlands good chance in getting white mana. I'm playing with a splash of black, but I could play splash of white if necessary, and I don't get color screwed. To tell you the truth, I have more problems with Searing Blaze then I would have with finding the splash mana (more troubles as in holding a Searing Blaze and wishing I drew a land to drop)
There is a reason why Thoughtseize was almost 50 dollars a pop... The card doesn't suck.
Well I guess some players have all the luck... And I would fold if a second one enters the battlefield (the creature not land)
Alpine Moon seems idea but is very narrow. If it works, then that's your answer... But discarding is a reality, especially for Legacy.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
8 fetch & 1 multi are just not enough to support a consistent splash.
Speeding up burn doesn't work. If you could, we would play it base deck.
Removing Griselbrand or Marit Lage doesn't seem the right way to do it.
To do so requires 2 cards, one of which needs to be in my hand.
Getting the answer card, and then getting spanked anyway, really gets me down.
And that is my problem. Discard in Legacy is common, especially facing those decks. They play discard to solve those problems.
The cheapest Thoughtseize is down to 15 bucks, Plateau is $180 (what, really?, no love for plateau compared with other Multi's)
Either way, I already got both, and that aint the issue.
The real problem is Dark Depths is a complete caning.
A complete, crushing defeat for burn.
4(?) months ago, I got utterly, totally destroyed by it.
We played our two tournament games in 5 minutes, then we played another 9 "games" in the next 25 minutes.
He won, over and over. I pulled the 2 games where he mulled to 4. My burn deck was just irrelevant.
Eleven games in half an hour is stupid.
It was so bad, I stopped playing Legacy. The format just seemed tainted.
Much later, I went to another store to play standard, but it didn't fire. So I played Legacy, with my Blue Standard deck.
Went 1/3, and had fun.
Then, Randomly, it happened again, and this time I had my Legacy burn, went 2/2. Which is fine.
So I played again, and sat down against Marit Lage. Got crushed on turn 2.
Then, as he mulligans and mumbles about me having a really strong chance, I tell him, 'Yeah, sure. You are still going to win'. He goes down to 4 cards, on the draw, and wins on his 3rd turn.
That aint happening again.
I do not care what else I need to sacrifice under the wheels.
I am going to stop that Juggernaut.
.
I am not going to get colour screwed while holding a Path.
I am not going to get the Plateau and have them discard my Path.
.
I have in sideboard 2xMaze of Ith & 2xIsland of Wak-Wak
I am going to have 4x Alpine Moon
You can also decide to accept that Burn, like any other deck, has its bad matchups. It is particularly bad against A+B combo decks, including Reanimator, Depths, and SnT. At that point, you decide whether or not you are willing to accept that liability for the other advantages Burn offers. Burn has some very one-sided match ups, and if that bothers you enough then you will probably need to look for a different deck.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
and this is why I suggested using shock lands
Sure you'll be soaked by some damage but the cost is far less for what you need to do.
My land solutions get destroyed by wastelands. (fetched by sylvan S / Expedition map)
My Path to Exile gets discarded by Thoughtseize/Duress/Inquiz or ignored by Sylvan safekeeper
My Alipine Moon gets killed by Abrupt decay / Assasins trophy
Oh my God
Ensnaring Bridge is pointless.
The land to cast it goes away, or the bridge gets discarded, or destroyed.
Blood Moon / Magus of the Moon seems hopeful.
Dark Depths just won my big local tourney, and took another top 8 place.
Meeeep !
My sideboard Does work against Dark Depth.
But I don't.
.
Game 1 I mulled to 6 and got him to 1 life
.
Game 2 I played an Alpine moon on turn 1, and the game went long...
I got him to 1, again, and the game stalled.
He played a Glacial Chasm, then copied it in his upkeep with a thespian stage so he did not have to pay for it.
Then he plays life from the loam drawing the Glacial chasm and junk
Then cycles a land, triggering the Life.
And the Glacial Chasm comes back into play.
This took some time.
Meanwhile, nothing is happening on my side of the fence.
After some turns of this he starts to deal me 2 damage with Punishing fire in my turn, and drawing it back into his hand by tapping a grove of Burnwilliows. Aethersworn Cannonist was slowing him down.
10 turns later, he is looking at me like, . . .Really? You are going to make me play this out?
He can never let the Chasm leave play, so he will never get to attack with a 20/20, even if he kills the Alpine moon.
And I draw Alpine Moon Number 2, name Glacial Chasm, and kill him.
.
Game 3, I stuff up royally.
Him - Land, Exploration, land
Me - Mountain Swiftspear
Him - Land, Thespian stage
Me - Barbarian Ring - Alpine Moon - Wait - Crop Rotation, Dark Depths, Win
Me - Mental anguish, looking at the second Alpine Moon in my hand, and the Island of Wak Wak I can't play because I played the Barbarian Ring
My deck gave me EXACTLY what I needed, and I did not play it.
All I had to do was first turn Alpine Moon, Turn 2 Alpine Moon & Island of Wak Wak then do the Happy dance.
Me so Dumb.
Oh well.
I allow myself to make each and every mistake once.
I aint doin' that again.
Grrrr.
But, against the Red/Green version, Yep, That 8 card dedicated sideboard does work.
Well, It should, if you tap the mountain and play the freakin' card on turn 1.
I don't like Swiftspear because there are times you cannot pump them. I do play with 4 Vexing Devils. Please note: I'm not going to argue the pro's and con's about playing with a vexing devil, because the pro's and con's were created by players that never played with vexing devil. I believe if you were playing with a vexing devil instead of swiftspear you might had gotten over that 1 point hump. I do think you should play testing vexing devil first and judge for yourself.
Barbarian Ring is not a good card. We seldom get Threshold. I don't like it because you cannot sac it to a fireblast.
I'm not sure what happen with the Alpine Moon (Dark Depths should be a given targeted name). Game 3 you could had gotten the win.
May have to warp the build a bit to up the instant count, but for 1 card and 3 mana you get 6 damage out of 2 bolts and 3 swiftspear triggers.
Http://www.fantasticneighborhood.com/
Comedy gaming podcast. Listening to it makes you cool.
after shes cast.
some kind of colorless spell? or an effective way to splash something with the sideboard?
i hate that card so much.
goblin recruiteris too powerful to be allowed, but iona is just fine?
The Precious
B___U___G___R___W
In play, she cuts off all our spells, obviously, and only in play creatures can do anything.
Just the way it is, but getting Iona in play does require some serious effort though.
You could go the big Colour Shift, of massed fetch lands, a Plateau and some path to exile, but, I wouldn't recommend it.
Barbarian Rings are one of the only 'normal' things you can do after Iona.
I like them, and i get it that most people do not play them purely because of the Fireblast problem.
Two Fireblasts in opening hand is why I only play 3 Fireblast. Getting to 4 land is just hard. Getting to 3 land is much easier. 3 land means I want one of them to be a Barabarian ring. They have won me games purely because they can not be counter spelled.
They mean I can play 20 land, deal more damage, and take less mulligans.
Mulligans are really regular with burn, and annoy me.
I don't play Vexing Devils. Sure, they are a reasonable card, but not for me.
Finale of Promise is a very spicy play.
Kudos if you can pull it off.
If burn only beats 'Fair' decks, that's a problem.
Fair decks are not played in Legacy.
Legacy Burn folds pretty hard to combo. Burn can't win without paying quite a bit of mana or getting a lot of help from self damage. It's just not possible to cast 7 or 8 mana worth of cards to win on turn 2 in Burn. Storm could combo off well before that. Reanimator could put something into play well before that. Dredge could have lethal in play. That's just reality. What Burn can beat are the fair decks that are spending their time playing Ponder and Preordain and Baleful Strix. You want to play against a Force of Will deck that has 4 non-basics in play.
'Fair' - D&T, Grixis Control, Grixis Delver, Miracles, Maverick, UB Shadow, BUG - Tee hee
"Fair blue decks" are a thing, they play Force, and that's the kind of deck Burn wants to play against. "Tarmogoyf decks" are what you want to play against, though it's been supplanted by Gurmag Angler.
Maybe you haven't played enough Legacy to recognize that there are a number of fair decks? That's the only reasonable explanation I can think of for the claim you're making right now. If you genuinely believe that Legacy has zero fair decks and that it's therefore completely built of fast combo decks, what are you doing playing Burn? You're just donating your entry fee. Burn cannot do well without the fair decks to prey on.
Oh?
So, the definition of 'fair' is paying mana, yet "Many of them play blue, and thus play Force of Will".
Not paying mana for counterspells is fair
Not paying mana for wrath is fair (terminus)
Not paying mana for burn is fair (fireblast)
But, not paying mana for creatures is not fair
"Maybe you haven't played enough Legacy to recognize that there are a number of fair decks? That's the only reasonable explanation I can think of for the claim you're making right now."
Got it, I am ignorant or inexperienced. I must be, because I disagree.
(And find your point of view amusing.)
Brian Braun-Duin clearly took crazy pills when he wrote this article and says things like this (as well as the phrase "fair blue decks"):
Not only is Grixis Delver a "fair deck", but that statement quite clearly implies that others also exist.
The people in this Reddit thread must be out of their minds, too. What mad-man would say that Maverick, Dead Guy Ale, Jund, Junk, Bant, BUG, Shardless (loved playing against that one, bummer it's gone), Goblins, and Grixis are "fair decks"? Answer: someone who knows what they're talking about.
"Fair" means that the deck wins by turning creatures sideways after more-or-less paying a normal rate for them (Gurmag Angler doesn't invalidate this), though Burn directly converting mana to damage in Burn spells makes Burn a fair deck as well (and Fireblast doesn't invalidate that). That means the deck doesn't win through comboing off and they don't do things like cheat in a 15/15 with Sneak/Show or reanimate a fatty on turn 1. Playing Force of Will doesn't make a deck unfair. Last I checked, the only situation in which Force of Will "wins" a game is when you cast it with it's alternate cost at 1 life and lose the game for it.
When someone talks about a "fair deck", they're characterizing the win condition in the deck. I think the issue is that I'm defining "fair deck" the way everyone else defines "fair deck" and you're using some definition that no one else uses. That more or less means that you're arguing from an incorrect position and are just flat out wrong. There are fair decks in Legacy, quite a few, in fact. When you claim there are none, it's correct to question your experience with the format because no one who has any experience with Legacy could say "Fair decks are not played in Legacy." with a straight face.
"When someone talks about a "fair deck", they're characterizing the win condition in the deck."
"Fair" means that the deck wins by turning creatures sideways after more-or-less paying a normal rate for them"
Oh.
Good to know the cool kids have a precise definition.
(And, Burn, PURE burn, is the literal definition of 'Unfair'. Oh. I am wrong again.)
"Fair" - "the deck doesn't win through comboing off and they don't do things like cheat in a 15/15 with Sneak/Show or reanimate a fatty on turn 1."
"Playing Force of Will doesn't make a deck unfair."
Right . . .
"I think the issue is that I'm defining "fair deck" the way everyone else defines "fair deck" and you're using some definition that no one else uses."
Yeah, I think you might just be onto something there.
I am using the word 'Fair' to mean fair. Weird Huh?
"That more or less means that you're arguing from an incorrect position and are just flat out wrong."
Got it.
I am wrong a lot, and Force of Will is the very definition of "Fair".
That's why I am playing 4 copies of Force of Will in Vintage, because it is fair.
And, using the cool kids definition, Vintage decks all play "Fair".
Strip Mine & Time Vault & Ancestral are all "Fair".
"There are fair decks in Legacy, quite a few, in fact."
So, the types of decks in Legacy are not Combo, Aggro and Control.
They are 'Unfair' & "Fair" - Rock on dude.
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava spike
3 Fireblast
2 Light up the stage
2 Skewer the Critics
4 Price of Progress
1 Sonic Burst
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
9 Mountain
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
4 Barbarian Ring
4 Alpine Moon
2 Island of Wak-Wak
2 Maze of Ith
4 Searing Blaze
3 Exquisite Firecraft
I am trying out Skewer & Light Up.
Cute that they get around Chalice.
On the draw, Eidolon have been distinctly average.
Most of my Blue opponents also seem to be playing massed discard, making the Exquisite Firecraft not particularly useful.
Alpine Moon is a very spicy meatball.
I am thinking of going up to 4 Light Up The Stage because it gives more access to turn 2 Alpine Moon.
I so want a Hidetsugu's Second Rite
Pretty much everyone else who plays the format recognizes that there are fair decks and that there's even an entire class of decks called "fair blue decks". You can claim everyone else is wrong if you wish, but that's not reality.