Vexing Devil is interesting, and might be okay in a combo-heavy meta, but you really aren't packing a lot of great answers to creatures. Grim Lavamancer, Searing Blood/Blaze, and Volcanic Fallout are the go-to choices to answer creature-heavy decks. Additionally, Pyrostatic Pillar is another robust anti-Storm card. Exquisite Firecraft is a great anti-control card, but I feel you're unlikely to need both that and Pyroblast (which has more flexible utility, if less powerful). Finally, Molten Rain is pretty weak in general: if you really need to shut off opposing lands, Blood Moon is a better way to go.
You also have neither Bridges nor graveyard hate. That's fine, assuming you don't think it's a problem in your meta.
@Lord_Darkview I do have Grafdigger's Cage but I'm trying to get more, I'd feel safer running at least two vs one. Dredge I haven't seen much, likely because I have yet to play against it. I'm not too terribly worried about Reanimator decks, I don't want to sound cocky or arrogant but I've always crushed Reanimator decks regardless of format. I do however forget about Ensnaring Bridge. The $50 is bit pricey, should I run one or two of those in my side? I'm in the process of procuring Searing Blood. I've also toyed with running Anger of the Gods as a one of in the main deck. I forgot about Pyrostatic PIllar, I'll work on getting me some as well. Molten Rain is there for two reasons, it destroys the land and burns them and two, I have bad luck scoring Blood Moon either people value them too highly (ebay & trades) or I simply don't have enough trade (I usually buy my decks). But thank you very much, that actually helped out greatly. Thank you
It's great to find such a detailed thread on this sort of thing, I just have a few questions I'm hoping you guys can help with.
For starters, does Vexing Devil clash with Goblin Guide? I feel like running them at the same time could lead to weird decisions in your first two turns, just because of the economy of the order you would want to play them, if that makes sense.
Is there some sort of general consensus on what your landbase should look like with fetchlands? I see a lot of variation, though it seems that 8 mountains or 10 mountains are the most popular ones.
Can someone explain the appeal of GLM? I think I just don't have enough experience playing the meta to see the value of running it over faster stuff.
It's great to find such a detailed thread on this sort of thing, I just have a few questions I'm hoping you guys can help with.
For starters, does Vexing Devil clash with Goblin Guide? I feel like running them at the same time could lead to weird decisions in your first two turns, just because of the economy of the order you would want to play them, if that makes sense.
Is there some sort of general consensus on what your landbase should look like with fetchlands? I see a lot of variation, though it seems that 8 mountains or 10 mountains are the most popular ones.
Can someone explain the appeal of GLM? I think I just don't have enough experience playing the meta to see the value of running it over faster stuff.
Lavamancer gives you reach for games that are going longer than you'd like by turning your gy into damage while also generating massive advantage by pinging creatures. Sure, it dies to removal, but against fair decks of all sorts it also says "kill this now or I can take control of the game." Hell, against elves it is a turn one nightmare as you kill all of their good stuff.
Lavamancer a meta card, but it still advances the game-plan pretty well even against a deck it isn't necessarily 'good' against. Its main detriment is that it's a bit slow, so against fast combo in specific it tends to be weaker.
Regarding your original question regarding Vexing Devil. You have hit the nail on the head about why it is an awkward card to run in Burn. Very much similar to why Black Vise hasn't been played since being unbanned.
So now I'm tempted to switch Vexing Devil for Goblin Guide, but I'm just wanting to fully understand, is Goblin Guide better as a topdeck later on because it has haste and can just go down and start beating? Could I run Vexing Devils and Goblin Guides as a good alternative to running GLM? Or do they clash too hard? Why is Hellspark Elemental talked about but not Spark Elemental? And I hadn't even heard Black Vise got unbanned, but that one always seemed like it would be good for burn, I'm surprised it's not.
Edit: Here's my tentative decklist right now, with 3 empty spots that I'm thinking over right now. Lemme know if there's any deficiencies in it, in the meantime.
Running Black Vise and Vexing Devil has, in fact, been done, and to good effect in some tournaments. That said, these are highly conditional effects. Monastery Swiftspear or Grim Lavamancer is a more typical MB choice.
I also don't see Eidolons in that list. Eidolon of the Great Revel is as close to an indispensable card as exists for this deck--in the same class as Goblin Guide, Lightning Bolt, Fireblast, and Price of Progress. It gives a fighting chance against Elves and Storm, and providing a lot of the damage you need to win in a long game or play a control strategy. I strongly suggest you try to find room for a play set.
I actually have no idea how I forgot about that dude, pyrostatic pillar chump is important, lemme get him in there. Is it viable to run Eidolon with GLM and Goblin Guide, or should I look to sub one out? I see people mostly talking about 8 creature decks, but idk if that soft limit is there for consistency of tempo reasons, or because it's not great to topdeck creatures in later turns, or what.
There are tempo reasons, but also topdeck reasons. Trying to force damage through the red-zone is generally tough. Neither Eidolon on Lavamancer really depend on that at all. I'd generally view 4 Guides and 4 Eidolons as automatic MB cards. Past there, it's a customization point, but up to 4 more are easily feasible: these can be Swiftspears, Lavamancers, Devils, or something else if you're feeling creative.
Agree, up to 12 creatures is perfectly fine. Eidolon is pretty much an auto-include 4-of. I'd also struggle to find a successful deck that doesn't run a full set of Goblin Guide, unless they are trying to make a point of going creatureless.
With competitive level results though? That’s what I mean by successful decks. I’ve seen (and done) all sorts of unorthodox stuff as well, but it doesn’t really mean anything in the absence of results.
I've seen some tournament reports that have those builds being successful. They are a vast minority, though. That's why I said precisely what I did. They can work, but I do not believe they are optimal. Also, some really strange builds have come out of Japan, but as I understand it the Japanese meta is rather different than it is in the Americas or Europe.
The main board Pyrostatic PIllar is just to keep it full so I have a deck to play at my events. I'm still toying with Vexing Devils as they're good pressure early and late game. Even in between game, I can board them out for stuff to help me win. But then again, I haven't played much Legacy in my meta.
What do you guys think about running Vexing Devil mainboard instead of GLM, but then keeping a playset of GLM in the sideboard so you can switch out Devil between games if it merits it? Is that a waste of space in the sideboard that you need for other MU's?
@Lizard Buckler: Ultimately, you want GLM if you're using Vexing Devil, they feed each other. But you'll also want fetchlands too. IMO, I could be wrong. I personally want them for my version as they can do damage quick and fast. But then again, maybe not.
I'm just trying to understand at this point the differences between running vexing vs running goblin guide. It seems like they're very similar in use at all phases of the game, but I'm a greenhorn so there's plenty of stuff I could be missing.
Devil and Guide are very similar, but different. The biggest difference is that Devil may be a 4-damage spell in the opening turns, but is often a weak creature by the mid-game. It can never do more than 4 damage against a competent opponent. Guide can get in for a bunch more if you handle blockers, and Haste means it can typically get in for 2 early, but can also be relegated to uselessness.
I think it's that upside that makes the difference. A Guide can get in 6-8 damage in the right circumstances. Devil never will.
As for Devil versus Lavamancer, I tend to agree they're best in tandem but also fight for limited space. I could see a deck running 4 Devils and 3 Lavamancer in the MB.
I can see the utility aspect of Goblin Guide too, since it can do 2 and then chump block, or force removal, while Vexing Devil moves slower and gives your opponent more room to play
Also, while I have never personally experienced this, I have actually heard people comment that Guide is also good against Bridge decks, since lands can clog up their hand and allow you to attack longer.
I can see the utility aspect of Goblin Guide too, since it can do 2 and then chump block, or force removal, while Vexing Devil moves slower and gives your opponent more room to play
Yeah, in essence you get to make the decisions about the line of play with Guide, whereas with Vexing Devil your opponent makes those decisions for you. So ends up being the optimal line vs the sub-optimal line, and insofar you see the difference between the performance of each in practice.
Thinking about playing after a long hiatus. I don’t have a clue what metas look like now, but I suspect CFB will be the usual, so I went off of what I remember. Any new cards I should be looking at in terms of what people would bring in against us? I haven’t played since just before Top banning.
I’m not expecting a lot of creatures in front of me and more combo and Miracles and big mana play decks, so I chose Vortex because my life total doesn’t really matter there and I want constant pressure. I also moved Lavamancer to the side because of this, but still want answers to creature decks in my 75, so that’s why Swiftspear is a 4-of. Reanimator is played here and I know it’s a terrible match up, but I don’t know if I should play Bridge to help answer Eldrazi (or that colorless stompy deck), zombie fish, or just replace the Traps with a Surgical Extraction and the fourth Smash, or just 2 Surgical Extraction. Surgical seems like a decent all around answer for everything, but also just in case I’m paired up with something like Storm, which I think has lost some popularity at CFB. Overall I am iffy about Mindbreak Trap. Suggestions are encouraged.
I tend to prefer hate cards that are useful against multiple archetypes and aren't irrelevant if drawn after turn 1. Bridge meets these requirements, even if it's a bit sluggish. I run a few.
For the same reason, I also am not crazy about Leyline. Faerie is better than Surgical against Reanimator, but Surgical is a much more powerful and flexible card, and Reanimator is just so bad of a matchup I don't want to devote many resources to it specifically (any match with it is likely to be a loss, sideboards notwithstanding). Tormod's Crypt is narrow and rarely better than Faeries, while Relic is too slow. Given these, I prefer Surgical and would be willing to play up to 4, but it is also reasonable to simply not play SB cards against the graveyard and accept the liability.
Mindbreak Trap is rarely good enough, especially with how much discard Storm runs these days.
You also have neither Bridges nor graveyard hate. That's fine, assuming you don't think it's a problem in your meta.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Vintage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Legacy
For starters, does Vexing Devil clash with Goblin Guide? I feel like running them at the same time could lead to weird decisions in your first two turns, just because of the economy of the order you would want to play them, if that makes sense.
Is there some sort of general consensus on what your landbase should look like with fetchlands? I see a lot of variation, though it seems that 8 mountains or 10 mountains are the most popular ones.
Can someone explain the appeal of GLM? I think I just don't have enough experience playing the meta to see the value of running it over faster stuff.
Lavamancer gives you reach for games that are going longer than you'd like by turning your gy into damage while also generating massive advantage by pinging creatures. Sure, it dies to removal, but against fair decks of all sorts it also says "kill this now or I can take control of the game." Hell, against elves it is a turn one nightmare as you kill all of their good stuff.
Regarding your original question regarding Vexing Devil. You have hit the nail on the head about why it is an awkward card to run in Burn. Very much similar to why Black Vise hasn't been played since being unbanned.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Edit: Here's my tentative decklist right now, with 3 empty spots that I'm thinking over right now. Lemme know if there's any deficiencies in it, in the meantime.
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
Enchantment
3 Sulfuric Vortex
Land
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Arid Mesa
10 Mountain
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
I also don't see Eidolons in that list. Eidolon of the Great Revel is as close to an indispensable card as exists for this deck--in the same class as Goblin Guide, Lightning Bolt, Fireblast, and Price of Progress. It gives a fighting chance against Elves and Storm, and providing a lot of the damage you need to win in a long game or play a control strategy. I strongly suggest you try to find room for a play set.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I had to search back to 2012 on MTGTop8 decklists (competitive level or better) to find one without a full set of Goblin Guide.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
4x Goblin Guide
4x Monastery Swiftspear
Instants/Sorceries
1x Searing Blood
2x Sudden Shock
4x Chain Lightning
4x Fireblast
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Rift Bolt
4x Price of Progress
1x Pyrostatic Pillar
Lands
20x Mountain
2x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Pyrostatic Pillar
3x Pyroblast
4x Exquisite Firecraft
4x Smash to Smithereens
The main board Pyrostatic PIllar is just to keep it full so I have a deck to play at my events. I'm still toying with Vexing Devils as they're good pressure early and late game. Even in between game, I can board them out for stuff to help me win. But then again, I haven't played much Legacy in my meta.
Vintage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Legacy
Vintage >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Legacy
I think it's that upside that makes the difference. A Guide can get in 6-8 damage in the right circumstances. Devil never will.
As for Devil versus Lavamancer, I tend to agree they're best in tandem but also fight for limited space. I could see a deck running 4 Devils and 3 Lavamancer in the MB.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Yeah, in essence you get to make the decisions about the line of play with Guide, whereas with Vexing Devil your opponent makes those decisions for you. So ends up being the optimal line vs the sub-optimal line, and insofar you see the difference between the performance of each in practice.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
3 Searing Blaze
4 Rift Bolt
3 Fireblast
1 Barbarian Ring
11 Fetches
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Searing Blaze
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Mindbreak Trap
I’m not expecting a lot of creatures in front of me and more combo and Miracles and big mana play decks, so I chose Vortex because my life total doesn’t really matter there and I want constant pressure. I also moved Lavamancer to the side because of this, but still want answers to creature decks in my 75, so that’s why Swiftspear is a 4-of. Reanimator is played here and I know it’s a terrible match up, but I don’t know if I should play Bridge to help answer Eldrazi (or that colorless stompy deck), zombie fish, or just replace the Traps with a Surgical Extraction and the fourth Smash, or just 2 Surgical Extraction. Surgical seems like a decent all around answer for everything, but also just in case I’m paired up with something like Storm, which I think has lost some popularity at CFB. Overall I am iffy about Mindbreak Trap. Suggestions are encouraged.
For the same reason, I also am not crazy about Leyline. Faerie is better than Surgical against Reanimator, but Surgical is a much more powerful and flexible card, and Reanimator is just so bad of a matchup I don't want to devote many resources to it specifically (any match with it is likely to be a loss, sideboards notwithstanding). Tormod's Crypt is narrow and rarely better than Faeries, while Relic is too slow. Given these, I prefer Surgical and would be willing to play up to 4, but it is also reasonable to simply not play SB cards against the graveyard and accept the liability.
Mindbreak Trap is rarely good enough, especially with how much discard Storm runs these days.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB