A lot of successful lists even run as few as 18 lands, complete with fetches and full sets of Fireblast.
To me even in modern that has been suicide and that's not using fire blast and only using volley. I will not run less than 19 unless I'm playing my rakdos version in modern where I only have 8 two drops
I don’t necessarily agree with the number. I’m more inclined to 19 lands. But there is no disputing that many decks have run 18 lands and had competitive level success.
Also, the curve on the Modern deck is significantly higher, so the comparison is not very useful.
I don’t necessarily agree with the number. I’m more inclined to 19 lands. But there is no disputing that many decks have run 18 lands and had competitive level success.
Also, the curve on the Modern deck is significantly higher, so the comparison is not very useful.
depends on the version. we run just as many 2 drops as i do in modern and just as many 1 drops. but i think ill cut a mountain. im juat waiting to preorder 7 of the unstable mountains
Modern Burn usually runs 17-20x 2-drops. In comparison, Legacy Burn runs 8-11x 2-drops and has 4x “free” spells. To be fair, sometimes we have a couple of 3-drops, but I think the lists on 18x lands don’t run Vortex.
That just seems wrong too. They must be hoping not to run into batterskull or jitte. Not to mention the constant source of damage that puts the clock and pressure on them to do something about it. I can't see ever not having vortex. But to each their own.
That just seems wrong too. They must be hoping not to run into batterskull or jitte. Not to mention the constant source of damage that puts the clock and pressure on them to do something about it. I can't see ever not having vortex. But to each their own.
Batterskull typically arrives on turn 5. Often, the game is over by then. When it's not, you have Smash to Smithereens. Jitte is more common, but a simple solution is to blast anything they try to equip it to until such time as you draw Smash to Smithereens. These cards are slow enough to not be terribly threatening to the core burn plan, even in game 1. In games 2 and 3, we have answers (including increasing our Vortex count).
I don’t necessarily agree with the number. I’m more inclined to 19 lands. But there is no disputing that many decks have run 18 lands and had competitive level success.
Also, the curve on the Modern deck is significantly higher, so the comparison is not very useful.
I played 16 lands during 2012-2013 and it was probably the best I've ever done with the deck. My local meta at the time was Miracles, Lands, Delver, Storm, Shardless and D&T and the only deck I wasn't consistently blazing down was D&T.
Shamefully, now that we live in Chalice shanty town 16 lands just don't do it anymore.
So is vortex relevant enough in an unknown meta to be in the main deck? I'm waiting for a big tourney to be within 200 miles of Memphis and I'm just curious if jitte and batterskull are bad enough in an unknown meta for Vortex to have main deck slots. I probably should go look at the other Legacy forums and see how many decks run those
You can run without them, which can allow you to further slim land count and be more explosive. However, Vortex is not just good against lifegain but against grindy, slower decks that will try to bleed you out in attrition. Enchantments are touch to remove. If you land one with more life than the opponent, sometimes you just win. It's another thing that's a personal decision.
As long as you don’t ask the same questions over and over after they have already been answered you are fine. The thing about burn is it is pretty straight forward so outside of helping newer people to the format, discussion of potential new cards is rare as it is tough for new cards to make it into the deck. WOTC doesn’t like giving red anymore good toys with great rates anymore just like they don’t make great counterspells hardly anymore. The big discussions come when something like SDT gets banned thus shaking up the format which makes adjusting the sb important.
It looks like Fireblast, but it's not. It's Sorcery speed, and having the creature in play during your main phase is a tougher condition to satisfy than double Mountains (since we play so few creatures, and they're usually short-lived). Also, actually requiring mana to cast it is a limiter as well.
It's not a terrible card, but it wouldn't be among my top picks for Burn. Maybe in some mixed-tribe Sligh deck, where it could be more consistent than Goblin Grenade.
FNM report...
Went undefeated in 4 rounds. Technically went 3-0-1 but that was because it was just 2 of us who were undefeated going into the last round so we just drew and played for fun which I 4-1 (we kept playing until the other people finished.
R1: 2-1 Bant Shardless. All games close but luckily I had enough bolts to point at multiple SFM. The game I lost he had saw 3 SFM and I didn’t have enough bolts before batterskull was cheated in.
R2: 2-1 Dredge. Game 1 was weird because he kept a 1 land no Dredge hand hoping to faithless loot into one which he scooped T2. Game 2 he got it with close game. Game 3 On the play T1 cage kept him in check until the hands shook.
R3: 2-0 U/R Delver. Game 1 outraced him cause Delver didn’t flip. Game 2 literally crushed him with Fallout with Swifty to stay alive and help close out the game.
R4: 2-0 went on to (4-1) ANT. I kept getting hands with either Pillar or Eidolon in the opener except the 1 I lost which I mulled down to 5 and still didn’t have one and he turn 2 went off.
Collected my 5 packs and then left to go play commander with another group of friends.
Thanks. I forgot to mention that one of the guys playing RUG Delver which I didn’t get a chance to play against will probably bring reanimator so even more difficult matches to report later.
Just as some food for thought for those that aren’t currently playing Swiftspear...
If you are playing Volcanic Fallout in the SB she stays alive to continue pushing through damage.
Also out of the core “burn spells package” (Bolt, Chain, R.Bolt, Spike, Blast, Price) literally 1/2 are sorcery speed so why not get a bonus for having to play things main phase anyways. Those that still play Flame Rift it is over half obviously.
So, I've been playing Sullivan Burn (ignoring sideboard because my Meta is... less than diverse), and I've felt... what's the right word?... dirty, I guess, each time I suspend a Rift Bolt. It's easily the weakest card in the deck, and I just can't accept it as the right card anymore.
What have others tried?
I had Vexing Devil in that slot for a while, but it hasn't performed much differently from Rift Bolt from the perspective of time-to-damage; not to mention makes opposing creature removal more valuable.
I've been toying with playing four Gitaxian Probe... Providing the benefit of information while very nearly, though not technically, reducing the card count of the deck to 56 at the cost of 2 life each. Also, it has the benefit of reducing the effective total mana cost of the deck by increasing the number of free spells to eight.
I've seen decks that used that, Baubles, and Street Wraith. If you do that, you probably will get a lot of mileage out of Lavamancer.
I agree, Rift Bolt feels towards the weak end, but it's still too good for me to drop it.
I feel like it's a bolt that can sort of change the way they may play their hand. They aren't going to want to run something they need into a suspended Rift Bolt. But this is coming from someone who hasn't played a single game of Legacy yet
I've seen decks that used that, Baubles, and Street Wraith. If you do that, you probably will get a lot of mileage out of Lavamancer.
I agree, Rift Bolt feels towards the weak end, but it's still too good for me to drop it.
Seems like the only 1 out of those mentioned to play would be probe because you can check to see if the coast is clear to Fireblast without walking into a FoW. Paying 2 life to just draw a card is worst than just playing an additional burn spell and I would rather look at the opponents hand rather than look at their next draw.
I agree with Rift Bolt possibly being the weakest link in burn but there are some merits to it such as help getting in more damage in with Swiftspear or potentially holding off the opponent running out a creature like SFM or DRS. If the opponent is playing a bunch of counter magic it also helps to bottleneck them as well.
Been a while since last post but I am curious if anyone is having success with the white splash for the board, namely Path to Exile and Deflecting Palm? A guy in my meta switched from RUG Deliver to B/R Reanimator and I had the joy of losing to Lands on my T2 would have been his T3 without any Manabond. I was considering Ensnaring Bridge but it wouldn’t fast enough to do anything against T1 or T2. Thoughts?
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To me even in modern that has been suicide and that's not using fire blast and only using volley. I will not run less than 19 unless I'm playing my rakdos version in modern where I only have 8 two drops
Also, the curve on the Modern deck is significantly higher, so the comparison is not very useful.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
depends on the version. we run just as many 2 drops as i do in modern and just as many 1 drops. but i think ill cut a mountain. im juat waiting to preorder 7 of the unstable mountains
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Batterskull typically arrives on turn 5. Often, the game is over by then. When it's not, you have Smash to Smithereens. Jitte is more common, but a simple solution is to blast anything they try to equip it to until such time as you draw Smash to Smithereens. These cards are slow enough to not be terribly threatening to the core burn plan, even in game 1. In games 2 and 3, we have answers (including increasing our Vortex count).
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Shamefully, now that we live in Chalice shanty town 16 lands just don't do it anymore.
I run two Vortex MD with more in the SB.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
It's not a terrible card, but it wouldn't be among my top picks for Burn. Maybe in some mixed-tribe Sligh deck, where it could be more consistent than Goblin Grenade.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Went undefeated in 4 rounds. Technically went 3-0-1 but that was because it was just 2 of us who were undefeated going into the last round so we just drew and played for fun which I 4-1 (we kept playing until the other people finished.
R1: 2-1 Bant Shardless. All games close but luckily I had enough bolts to point at multiple SFM. The game I lost he had saw 3 SFM and I didn’t have enough bolts before batterskull was cheated in.
R2: 2-1 Dredge. Game 1 was weird because he kept a 1 land no Dredge hand hoping to faithless loot into one which he scooped T2. Game 2 he got it with close game. Game 3 On the play T1 cage kept him in check until the hands shook.
R3: 2-0 U/R Delver. Game 1 outraced him cause Delver didn’t flip. Game 2 literally crushed him with Fallout with Swifty to stay alive and help close out the game.
R4: 2-0 went on to (4-1) ANT. I kept getting hands with either Pillar or Eidolon in the opener except the 1 I lost which I mulled down to 5 and still didn’t have one and he turn 2 went off.
Collected my 5 packs and then left to go play commander with another group of friends.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
If you are playing Volcanic Fallout in the SB she stays alive to continue pushing through damage.
Also out of the core “burn spells package” (Bolt, Chain, R.Bolt, Spike, Blast, Price) literally 1/2 are sorcery speed so why not get a bonus for having to play things main phase anyways. Those that still play Flame Rift it is over half obviously.
What have others tried?
I had Vexing Devil in that slot for a while, but it hasn't performed much differently from Rift Bolt from the perspective of time-to-damage; not to mention makes opposing creature removal more valuable.
I've been toying with playing four Gitaxian Probe... Providing the benefit of information while very nearly, though not technically, reducing the card count of the deck to 56 at the cost of 2 life each. Also, it has the benefit of reducing the effective total mana cost of the deck by increasing the number of free spells to eight.
Thoughts?
Legacy - WRG Lands, WR Shortcake, RR Burn, UBRG Delver
I agree, Rift Bolt feels towards the weak end, but it's still too good for me to drop it.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
I feel like it's a bolt that can sort of change the way they may play their hand. They aren't going to want to run something they need into a suspended Rift Bolt. But this is coming from someone who hasn't played a single game of Legacy yet
Seems like the only 1 out of those mentioned to play would be probe because you can check to see if the coast is clear to Fireblast without walking into a FoW. Paying 2 life to just draw a card is worst than just playing an additional burn spell and I would rather look at the opponents hand rather than look at their next draw.
I agree with Rift Bolt possibly being the weakest link in burn but there are some merits to it such as help getting in more damage in with Swiftspear or potentially holding off the opponent running out a creature like SFM or DRS. If the opponent is playing a bunch of counter magic it also helps to bottleneck them as well.