Do we dedicate at least 2-3 slots now to turn one (or even turn zero with Leyline of the Void)graveyard hate then? If reanimator does get a lion's share of the now defunct Miracles, portion we ought to be ready despite taking a turn off because we cannot beat reanimated Iona turn one or two.
@Nevelo: I'm not going to waste my time and respond to you're post... It is all wrong. You never played with Vexing Devil, and you never played Vexing Devil with Eidolon.
More like you can't respond to my argument, so your reduced to just saying I'm wrong and attacking me as a person. You don't know me, nor what I have played and tested.
Top Banned
While, it's not a surprise, timing is definitely a bit funky. I would have figured they'd give Harsh Mentor a shot at fighting it first.
I wonder if we even care to run Exquisite anymore at this point. It really was mainly for Miracles. That would free up a lot of slots.
I don't even think I'll run Harsh Mentor anymore, Eidolon does his thing better against most other decks and if I'm not mistaken there's no deck anymore that can take him off the table without getting shocked.
Maybe Mentor will be fringe SB tech for Lands?
@Nevelo: I'm not going to waste my time and respond to you're post... It is all wrong. You never played with Vexing Devil, and you never played Vexing Devil with Eidolon.
More like you can't respond to my argument, so your reduced to just saying I'm wrong and attacking me as a person. You don't know me, nor what I have played and tested.
You are correct I don't know you... but based on everything you had posted on Vexing Devil from the past; I don't see how you actually played the card and still came up with those conclusions.
I'm not attacking you personally, just attacking this frame of thought.
When I play vexing devil, I use him like a red version of Goyf. Sure if there was another 1 mana 2/2 haste I would drop the devil. But Swiftspear is no 2/2 attacker. She requires spells, otherwise we are playing a Raging Goblin with a big butt.
Top Banned
While, it's not a surprise, timing is definitely a bit funky. I would have figured they'd give Harsh Mentor a shot at fighting it first.
I wonder if we even care to run Exquisite anymore at this point. It really was mainly for Miracles. That would free up a lot of slots.
[/quote]
I read some posts (other places) that wizards held back on the ban because of Eternal Masters. I'm not sure but I do believe the unbanning of Black Vise was a signal that wizards was trying to do something to counter top.
I'm still don't believe anybody would play Harsh in burn, even if Top wasn't banned.
I do agree about firecraft. I was running 4, now I'm not sure... Then what... this might force me to go back and replay Rift Bolt (Guess I'm going to eat my words for saying that I don't support Rift Bolt anymore... but that's before I learned that Top was Banned.)
Mentor is worth testing. I still stand by my statements from above as mentor affects a number of matchups, including lands, elves, and dnt. Hitting on fetches and Deathrite is still worthy of consideration. I agree we can likely cut all copies of firecraft now, of which I'm likely replacing with more ensnaring bridges and mind break traps until everything settles down again. I'm moving Lavamancer main over the remaining swiftspears until I can see if harsh mentor under performs or not.
I'm expecting the format to look much closer to how it did between 2011 and 2014 pre Khan's block but with a few new toys/eldrazi hanging around.
Side note, it's a damn shame we never got to play mentor vs miracles in events before top's banning. Got to play online last night and Totally roasted-toasted a miracles player almost no contest. Even on the draw. It would have been nice to see that more often.
Trap is literally and metaphorically a trap. It's not proactive and gets stripped by discard. Pillar is better and if it's ANT then any GY hate helps too. TES you need eidolon or pillar imo.
Vexing devil isnt that good. I dont see how giving an opponent the option to chose which is more convenient for them is really the best to advance our game plan. I think this has already been said but at best its a 4 damage spell on turn 1. However, most of the time an opponent is only gonna let it stay on the battlefield is because they have removal for it, theyre about to combo off and it doesnt matter or they have creatures to throw in front of it. If not for swiftspear Id rather have spark elemental if it came down to it tbh
Vexing devil isnt that good. I dont see how giving an opponent the option to chose which is more convenient for them is really the best to advance our game plan. I think this has already been said but at best its a 4 damage spell on turn 1. However, most of the time an opponent is only gonna let it stay on the battlefield is because they have removal for it, theyre about to combo off and it doesnt matter or they have creatures to throw in front of it. If not for swiftspear Id rather have spark elemental if it came down to it tbh
You are not giving the opponent anything. This is why most people that hate vexing devil just don't get it. You are using the opponent's life against them.
Sure you can play the devil on first turn for for that 4 damage. It will work 90% of the time. The few times it don't work is because the opponent is playing combo and willing to take risk in leaving the devil in play.
I would only play the devil in the first turn if:
I don't have a Goblin Guide.
I don't have a Rift Bolt (back when I was playing with Rift Bolts)
I don't have any of the other Bolts.
now if I don't have any of these cards in my hand, then I'll play Vexing Devil.
I would only play the devil in turn two if:
I don't have Eidolon of the Great Revel in my hand.
I don't have a searing card (or a target)
If I played a bolt and I have a mana open.
If I have two devils in my hand.
If I played a goblin guide and mana open.
I'll also play him if I got a feeling (or I know) the opponent has a counter magic, so I could flush it out.
I would play the devil in turn three and after.
Sure this depends on cards in hand and what's in play. For example, if the opponent gets land greedy, pop and fireblast for the win.
lol... I've always thought Spark Elemental was a good creature but he was overshadowed by Mogg Fanatic and the old rules that allowed you to sac him in combat so he can deal 2 damage. When wizards finally got rid of the rule some of the players were looking at Karplusan Wolverine because it can do the same damage as the old Mogg Fanatic combat trick. But I believe in less than a year later we got Goblin Guide.
I'd play Hellspark Elemental, Keldon Marauders and Spark Elemental before even considering Vexing Devil. It sucked before Eidolon and Swifty, and it sucks way more nowadays. It's not a clever tech, it's pulling down your pants and asking your opponent to be gentle.
I'd play Hellspark Elemental, Keldon Marauders and Spark Elemental before even considering Vexing Devil. It sucked before Eidolon and Swifty, and it sucks way more nowadays. It's not a clever tech, it's pulling down your pants and asking your opponent to be gentle.
lol... you'll be surprised by the look the opponent makes when you drop the Devil on the table...
Anyway... I have 7 new open slots... I tried packing Rift Bolt and I still get that "pulling down my pants and asking my opponent to be gentle" feeling when I see two Rift Bolts in my opening hand...
I'd play Hellspark Elemental, Keldon Marauders and Spark Elemental before even considering Vexing Devil. It sucked before Eidolon and Swifty, and it sucks way more nowadays. It's not a clever tech, it's pulling down your pants and asking your opponent to be gentle.
lol... you'll be surprised by the look the opponent makes when you drop the Devil on the table...
Anyway... I have 7 new open slots... I tried packing Rift Bolt and I still get that "pulling down my pants and asking my opponent to be gentle" feeling when I see two Rift Bolts in my opening hand...
Yeah, bad opponents don't know how to handle Vexing Devil. If you have to rely on bad opponents to make Vexing Devil good, then Vexing Devil isn't very good.
I'd play Hellspark Elemental, Keldon Marauders and Spark Elemental before even considering Vexing Devil. It sucked before Eidolon and Swifty, and it sucks way more nowadays. It's not a clever tech, it's pulling down your pants and asking your opponent to be gentle.
lol... you'll be surprised by the look the opponent makes when you drop the Devil on the table...
Anyway... I have 7 new open slots... I tried packing Rift Bolt and I still get that "pulling down my pants and asking my opponent to be gentle" feeling when I see two Rift Bolts in my opening hand...
Yeah, bad opponents don't know how to handle Vexing Devil. If you have to rely on bad opponents to make Vexing Devil good, then Vexing Devil isn't very good.
It's nice to assume that bad opponents don't know how to handle Vexing Devil... and that Bad players play Vexing Devil... I think a good number of legacy players think Burn Players are bad from the start... All I do know is that I've been playing with the Devil since the card was made and it never failed me.
I think these in-directed name calling is getting us nowhere. It's not changing my standing but it's making me think I'm posting with simple minded children.
If you don't like to play with the Devil - don't play it.
I see the creature as 1 red mana, 4 power, 3 toughness and it has the ability to put the pressure on the opponent in the later rounds BECAUSE I CAN STILL HOLD MY CARDS. To me the devil far better than Swiftspear.
Until magic makes a better 1 mana drop that I could play to replace of the devil, than I'll drop my support.
I would like to change the topic, more on burn and the removal of top.
Yeah, bad opponents don't know how to handle Vexing Devil. If you have to rely on bad opponents to make Vexing Devil good, then Vexing Devil isn't very good.
It's nice to assume that bad opponents don't know how to handle Vexing Devil... and that Bad players play Vexing Devil... I think a good number of legacy players think Burn Players are bad from the start... All I do know is that I've been playing with the Devil since the card was made and it never failed me.
I think you're mistaken about what I said, because I certainly didn't engage in any name calling. I didn't say "bad players play Devil", I said that bad opponents don't know how to handle Devil. I also said that if you have to rely on running into a bad opponent in order for your card to be good, your card isn't actually good. Bad players will make misplays regardless of what you do. You shouldn't build your deck in hopes that you run into someone who doesn't know what they're doing, because you'll just get wrecked when you run into people who know what they're doing.
If you don't like to play with the Devil - don't play it.
That's sound advice, but if that's the advice you're giving then I don't know why there are periodic "Soldier says Devil is great, everyone else says it's not" exchanges.
I think you're mistaken about what I said, because I certainly didn't engage in any name calling. I didn't say "bad players play Devil", I said that bad opponents don't know how to handle Devil. I also said that if you have to rely on running into a bad opponent in order for your card to be good, your card isn't actually good. Bad players will make misplays regardless of what you do. You shouldn't build your deck in hopes that you run into someone who doesn't know what they're doing, because you'll just get wrecked when you run into people who know what they're doing.
Sure you didn't say 'bad players play Devil' but the remark implies it...
Also, what would a good player do that's any different then a bad player?
Elconquistador1985 didn't say anything about your skill level, and the comment only implied that Vexing Devil is bad. Though I do find this exchange pretty rich, given your "argument" against my own post.
Good players generally make good EV decisions in games over the long run. Like in Poker, estimating the odds of your hand and what your opponent might have. The thing is, you can win a hand but make the wrong call statistically.
I think you're mistaken about what I said, because I certainly didn't engage in any name calling. I didn't say "bad players play Devil", I said that bad opponents don't know how to handle Devil. I also said that if you have to rely on running into a bad opponent in order for your card to be good, your card isn't actually good. Bad players will make misplays regardless of what you do. You shouldn't build your deck in hopes that you run into someone who doesn't know what they're doing, because you'll just get wrecked when you run into people who know what they're doing.
Sure you didn't say 'bad players play Devil' but the remark implies it...
Also, what would a good player do that's any different then a bad player?
The remark implies nothing of the sort. I was speaking solely to the actions that an opponent might take when faced with a "punisher effect" like Devil has. Let's assume Devil gave you the choice, it would be phenomena (actually busted) l if that were the case. Instead, your opponent gets the choice. Every time you play Devil, there's a certain choice that produces the most desirable outcome for you. A good opponent will almost always make the choice that has the best outcome for them. A bad opponent will some less frequently make the right choice. In that instance, Vexing Devil is only good when your opponent makes a mistake and bad opponents are more likely to make a mistake. As Nevelo said, a good player will make good EV decisions. A bad player won't. Devil relies on you being able to exploit bad players.
Now, let's say you enter a high level tournament and you play Devil. How likely do you think it is that you'll run into a bad opponent? Rather unlikely. Let's say you enter your local 10 person Legacy event. How likely do you think it is to run into a bad opponent? Quite likely. In a high level and large tournament, Devil will get exposed as a weakness in your deck. In a low level and small tournament, outcomes are high variance and you're more or less winning by virtue of playing 56 other good cards.
None of this has anything to do with you as a person or player and everything to do with the person sitting across from you. If you have to depend on that other person being a bad player in order for Vexing Devil to be a good card, then Vexing Devil isn't actually a good card but rather that your opponents are just bad at the game.
It all sort of depends on how much Combo or Midrange/Aggro decks end up filling the void. Flame Rift and Swiftspear seem better if the former takes a larger meta share. In which case the PSullivan list looks good. However, my expectation is that Delver, D&T, and Elves get better. Perhaps Stoneblade decks have a revival. In that case Swiftspear and Flame Rift potentially get worse. With that in mind, I'm likely to update my own list as below:
Ridibundus, I agree. I find Sullivan's list to have the most raw power and aggressive of the builds, but I'm not certain that's how we will want to play. I feel there's going to be an uptick in stone blade-esque decks to fill the miracle void, as well as combo like elves, reanimator, sneak show and of course storm. Maverick style decks will make their way back into the spotlight as well. We are looking at 2012 legacy with a few new toys like eldrazi and leovold etc.
That said I still feel we should be testing harsh mentor, and finding its place, whatever that may be. If we play 2 mana cards they have to be able to deal upwards of 4 or more damage potentially. Eidolon, flame rift, price of progress, and searing blaze all do this. Mentor has a chance as well due to its interactions with death and taxes, elves, and lands to name a few. Yeah if they have a plow so what. If not? Good luck having life left over from equipping and killing him with a jitte. Even post being hit with a batterskull, if you can kill the token another way, his ability tears through them reseting the card. He nullifies the lifegain on Deathrite and scavenging ooze as long as he's on the field, and kotr's tricks are huge life changes.
In short, we've just been handed the best new tool since firecraft, a major banning just took place, and we are right back to age-old vexing devil debates? Let's work on progressing our beloved deck into its rightful place of top teir legacy. Really think we are well positioned all things considered.
Edit: Nevelo, I like the direction of your list. It's where I'm headed if mentor under performs in the maindeck. Almost card for card. The 11 creature/3 blaze plus vortex main is exactly what we used to do in the expected meta, there's little reason to believe it won't work again.
On another note, can we go over the eldrazi match? I've yet to actually play against it. Is it basically chalice plus clock minus price equal they win? And any other variant of that we do? Does ensnaring bridge do enough work? Etc. Thanks
I don't like the Sullivan list and expect Grim Lavamancer, Searing Blaze and Sulfuric Vortex to be more important than ever now that Legacy is Deathrite nation.
Look at Leovold's price trends, it got banned in Commander but still keeps appreciating fast. That looks to me like at least half the people who played Miracles because "it's the best deck" rather than because they liked it are buying into 4C Delver and/or 4C Stoneblade.
I would say that cards like Lavamancer (which depends on your graveyard) become worse with increased Deathrite presence to eat up its food (not to mention the removal that typically sits alongside the Deathrite in those decks). I think the Sullivan list is what I'd play going forward, with some slight tweaks (probably don't need 4 Exquisite Firecraft anymore, for instance).
In testing, Harsh Mentor has been fairly lackluster. The exception to this is Vial decks. I'm thinking it's just going to be a sideboard option, but I could be wrong.
I was speaking solely to the actions that an opponent might take when faced with a "punisher effect" like Devil has. Let's assume Devil gave you the choice, it would be phenomena (actually busted) if that were the case. Instead, your opponent gets the choice. Every time you play Devil, there's a certain choice that produces the most desirable outcome for you.
First, we are playing arggo-tempo.
Second, we are playing burn.
Third, the vexing devil punisher effect doesn’t change the context of the deck.
A good opponent will almost always make the choice that has the best outcome for them. A bad opponent will some less frequently make the right choice.
This is what I like to know, what choice can a good opponent make that’s better than a bad opponent.
Assuming that this was turn 3.
Turn 1, Goblin Guide attack.
Turn 2, I played a land and casted Eidolon, you dazed it. I attacked with Goblin Guide. On your turn, you played Goyf.
Turn 3, I played my 3rd land and casted Vexing Devil.
What amazing solution could a good opponent do? What could you do that would shock me?
Here are the options.
1, let Vexing Devil stay. I would have a 4/3 creature in play. This would put you in defense, if you attack me with Goyf, I’ll let him go thru and I would hit you for 6. Sure you could bolt Vexing Devil but what if I have another eidolon? I also have 2 mana open. (4/3 creature is in my favor)
2, you could absorb the 4 damage. You already took 4 damage from GG and 4 more would put you down to 12 life. You know I’m playing Goblin Guide and Eidolon so you should know I’m playing burn. So I could have price of progress and fireblast ready. I also have 2 mana open. Since you used daze and play goyf you have at least 1 to 2 non-basic lands in play. (4 damage is in my favor)
3, Counterspell. I know you dazed Eidolon and I will assume you have a Force of Will in your hand. I also have 2 mana open and cards in my hand. (Wasting a Counterspell is in my favor)
Maybe you can come up with a 4th option? Maybe it’s a bad move to play Goyf early? The graveyard has a land, instant, creature and enchantment – that makes Goyf a 4/5, if you’re playing against burn you need to outrace me.
@Soldier, The disconnect here might be that you're thinking about playing Vexing Devils on turn 3 while a lot of us are thinking about winning a match on turn 3.
No, it doesn't. Look, I'm sorry you can't tell the difference between criticisms of your deck building strategy and personal attacks, maybe it's because you're so used to them being coupled that you just think both always happen simultaneously. I have not insulted you or attacked you, but because you continue to claim that I have I'm done engaging with you. You're not listening to anything I've said (or anyone else here for that matter) and are just playing the victim for some odd reason. I'm tempted to just block you because I don't feel like playing the "Soldier cries wolf" game anymore.
More like you can't respond to my argument, so your reduced to just saying I'm wrong and attacking me as a person. You don't know me, nor what I have played and tested.
While, it's not a surprise, timing is definitely a bit funky. I would have figured they'd give Harsh Mentor a shot at fighting it first.
I wonder if we even care to run Exquisite anymore at this point. It really was mainly for Miracles. That would free up a lot of slots.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Maybe Mentor will be fringe SB tech for Lands?
You are correct I don't know you... but based on everything you had posted on Vexing Devil from the past; I don't see how you actually played the card and still came up with those conclusions.
I'm not attacking you personally, just attacking this frame of thought.
When I play vexing devil, I use him like a red version of Goyf. Sure if there was another 1 mana 2/2 haste I would drop the devil. But Swiftspear is no 2/2 attacker. She requires spells, otherwise we are playing a Raging Goblin with a big butt.
[/quote]
I read some posts (other places) that wizards held back on the ban because of Eternal Masters. I'm not sure but I do believe the unbanning of Black Vise was a signal that wizards was trying to do something to counter top.
I'm still don't believe anybody would play Harsh in burn, even if Top wasn't banned.
I do agree about firecraft. I was running 4, now I'm not sure... Then what... this might force me to go back and replay Rift Bolt (Guess I'm going to eat my words for saying that I don't support Rift Bolt anymore... but that's before I learned that Top was Banned.)
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
I'm expecting the format to look much closer to how it did between 2011 and 2014 pre Khan's block but with a few new toys/eldrazi hanging around.
Side note, it's a damn shame we never got to play mentor vs miracles in events before top's banning. Got to play online last night and Totally roasted-toasted a miracles player almost no contest. Even on the draw. It would have been nice to see that more often.
GRWNaya BurnGRW
GRWJundGRW
CAffinityC
UGUG EldraziUG
GRWBushwhacker ZooGRW
UBWRAd NauseamUBWR
Legacy
RBurnR
UBSneak & ShowUB
CEldrazi AggroC
You are not giving the opponent anything. This is why most people that hate vexing devil just don't get it. You are using the opponent's life against them.
Sure you can play the devil on first turn for for that 4 damage. It will work 90% of the time. The few times it don't work is because the opponent is playing combo and willing to take risk in leaving the devil in play.
I would only play the devil in the first turn if:
I don't have a Goblin Guide.
I don't have a Rift Bolt (back when I was playing with Rift Bolts)
I don't have any of the other Bolts.
now if I don't have any of these cards in my hand, then I'll play Vexing Devil.
I would only play the devil in turn two if:
I don't have Eidolon of the Great Revel in my hand.
I don't have a searing card (or a target)
If I played a bolt and I have a mana open.
If I have two devils in my hand.
If I played a goblin guide and mana open.
I'll also play him if I got a feeling (or I know) the opponent has a counter magic, so I could flush it out.
I would play the devil in turn three and after.
Sure this depends on cards in hand and what's in play. For example, if the opponent gets land greedy, pop and fireblast for the win.
lol... I've always thought Spark Elemental was a good creature but he was overshadowed by Mogg Fanatic and the old rules that allowed you to sac him in combat so he can deal 2 damage. When wizards finally got rid of the rule some of the players were looking at Karplusan Wolverine because it can do the same damage as the old Mogg Fanatic combat trick. But I believe in less than a year later we got Goblin Guide.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
lol... you'll be surprised by the look the opponent makes when you drop the Devil on the table...
Anyway... I have 7 new open slots... I tried packing Rift Bolt and I still get that "pulling down my pants and asking my opponent to be gentle" feeling when I see two Rift Bolts in my opening hand...
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Yeah, bad opponents don't know how to handle Vexing Devil. If you have to rely on bad opponents to make Vexing Devil good, then Vexing Devil isn't very good.
It's nice to assume that bad opponents don't know how to handle Vexing Devil... and that Bad players play Vexing Devil... I think a good number of legacy players think Burn Players are bad from the start... All I do know is that I've been playing with the Devil since the card was made and it never failed me.
I think these in-directed name calling is getting us nowhere. It's not changing my standing but it's making me think I'm posting with simple minded children.
If you don't like to play with the Devil - don't play it.
I see the creature as 1 red mana, 4 power, 3 toughness and it has the ability to put the pressure on the opponent in the later rounds BECAUSE I CAN STILL HOLD MY CARDS. To me the devil far better than Swiftspear.
Until magic makes a better 1 mana drop that I could play to replace of the devil, than I'll drop my support.
I would like to change the topic, more on burn and the removal of top.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
I think you're mistaken about what I said, because I certainly didn't engage in any name calling. I didn't say "bad players play Devil", I said that bad opponents don't know how to handle Devil. I also said that if you have to rely on running into a bad opponent in order for your card to be good, your card isn't actually good. Bad players will make misplays regardless of what you do. You shouldn't build your deck in hopes that you run into someone who doesn't know what they're doing, because you'll just get wrecked when you run into people who know what they're doing.
That's sound advice, but if that's the advice you're giving then I don't know why there are periodic "Soldier says Devil is great, everyone else says it's not" exchanges.
Sure you didn't say 'bad players play Devil' but the remark implies it...
Also, what would a good player do that's any different then a bad player?
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Good players generally make good EV decisions in games over the long run. Like in Poker, estimating the odds of your hand and what your opponent might have. The thing is, you can win a hand but make the wrong call statistically.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
The remark implies nothing of the sort. I was speaking solely to the actions that an opponent might take when faced with a "punisher effect" like Devil has. Let's assume Devil gave you the choice, it would be phenomena (actually busted) l if that were the case. Instead, your opponent gets the choice. Every time you play Devil, there's a certain choice that produces the most desirable outcome for you. A good opponent will almost always make the choice that has the best outcome for them. A bad opponent will some less frequently make the right choice. In that instance, Vexing Devil is only good when your opponent makes a mistake and bad opponents are more likely to make a mistake. As Nevelo said, a good player will make good EV decisions. A bad player won't. Devil relies on you being able to exploit bad players.
Now, let's say you enter a high level tournament and you play Devil. How likely do you think it is that you'll run into a bad opponent? Rather unlikely. Let's say you enter your local 10 person Legacy event. How likely do you think it is to run into a bad opponent? Quite likely. In a high level and large tournament, Devil will get exposed as a weakness in your deck. In a low level and small tournament, outcomes are high variance and you're more or less winning by virtue of playing 56 other good cards.
None of this has anything to do with you as a person or player and everything to do with the person sitting across from you. If you have to depend on that other person being a bad player in order for Vexing Devil to be a good card, then Vexing Devil isn't actually a good card but rather that your opponents are just bad at the game.
I know the look of dissapointment and relief, Belcher is popular at my LGS.
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Spells (29)
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
12 Mountain
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Searing Blood
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Harsh Mentor
3 Ensnaring Bridge
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
That said I still feel we should be testing harsh mentor, and finding its place, whatever that may be. If we play 2 mana cards they have to be able to deal upwards of 4 or more damage potentially. Eidolon, flame rift, price of progress, and searing blaze all do this. Mentor has a chance as well due to its interactions with death and taxes, elves, and lands to name a few. Yeah if they have a plow so what. If not? Good luck having life left over from equipping and killing him with a jitte. Even post being hit with a batterskull, if you can kill the token another way, his ability tears through them reseting the card. He nullifies the lifegain on Deathrite and scavenging ooze as long as he's on the field, and kotr's tricks are huge life changes.
In short, we've just been handed the best new tool since firecraft, a major banning just took place, and we are right back to age-old vexing devil debates? Let's work on progressing our beloved deck into its rightful place of top teir legacy. Really think we are well positioned all things considered.
Edit: Nevelo, I like the direction of your list. It's where I'm headed if mentor under performs in the maindeck. Almost card for card. The 11 creature/3 blaze plus vortex main is exactly what we used to do in the expected meta, there's little reason to believe it won't work again.
On another note, can we go over the eldrazi match? I've yet to actually play against it. Is it basically chalice plus clock minus price equal they win? And any other variant of that we do? Does ensnaring bridge do enough work? Etc. Thanks
Look at Leovold's price trends, it got banned in Commander but still keeps appreciating fast. That looks to me like at least half the people who played Miracles because "it's the best deck" rather than because they liked it are buying into 4C Delver and/or 4C Stoneblade.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
2 Harsh Mentor
Spells (27)
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
11 Mountain
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Searing Blood
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Red Elemental Blast
In testing, Harsh Mentor has been fairly lackluster. The exception to this is Vial decks. I'm thinking it's just going to be a sideboard option, but I could be wrong.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
It does.
First, we are playing arggo-tempo.
Second, we are playing burn.
Third, the vexing devil punisher effect doesn’t change the context of the deck.
This is what I like to know, what choice can a good opponent make that’s better than a bad opponent.
Assuming that this was turn 3.
Turn 1, Goblin Guide attack.
Turn 2, I played a land and casted Eidolon, you dazed it. I attacked with Goblin Guide. On your turn, you played Goyf.
Turn 3, I played my 3rd land and casted Vexing Devil.
What amazing solution could a good opponent do? What could you do that would shock me?
Here are the options.
1, let Vexing Devil stay. I would have a 4/3 creature in play. This would put you in defense, if you attack me with Goyf, I’ll let him go thru and I would hit you for 6. Sure you could bolt Vexing Devil but what if I have another eidolon? I also have 2 mana open. (4/3 creature is in my favor)
2, you could absorb the 4 damage. You already took 4 damage from GG and 4 more would put you down to 12 life. You know I’m playing Goblin Guide and Eidolon so you should know I’m playing burn. So I could have price of progress and fireblast ready. I also have 2 mana open. Since you used daze and play goyf you have at least 1 to 2 non-basic lands in play. (4 damage is in my favor)
3, Counterspell. I know you dazed Eidolon and I will assume you have a Force of Will in your hand. I also have 2 mana open and cards in my hand. (Wasting a Counterspell is in my favor)
Maybe you can come up with a 4th option? Maybe it’s a bad move to play Goyf early? The graveyard has a land, instant, creature and enchantment – that makes Goyf a 4/5, if you’re playing against burn you need to outrace me.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
No, it doesn't. Look, I'm sorry you can't tell the difference between criticisms of your deck building strategy and personal attacks, maybe it's because you're so used to them being coupled that you just think both always happen simultaneously. I have not insulted you or attacked you, but because you continue to claim that I have I'm done engaging with you. You're not listening to anything I've said (or anyone else here for that matter) and are just playing the victim for some odd reason. I'm tempted to just block you because I don't feel like playing the "Soldier cries wolf" game anymore.