Harsh mentor could possibly be a SB card against decks with Deathrite Shaman and Sensei's Divining Top, but other than that it might be too narrow. Soul-Scar Mage seems poor as hopefully we've been able to goldfish and win before it matters. I also agree that 12 creatures is the absolute most this deck should be playing and therefore there likely just isn't room for either of them.
I've got a Legacy event this weekend and am currently working with this list:
I'm not thrilled about running the 4 Exquisite Firecraft in the main deck or the strictly basic mana base, but with LOTS of blue decks (Delver, Merfolk, Miracles) in my local meta and cards like Force of Will and Stifle so prevalent it has been helpful. I would rather be jamming 4 Flame Rift main, but what can you do.
The SB is what I am not sure about, specifically the Blood Moons. Any SB advice with Merfolk, Delver (BUG mostly), Miracles, Manaless Dredge, and ANT Storm all likely to show up?
Searing Blaze is very good against Delver/Merfolk, but without fetches its power gets mitigated, Pyrostatic Pillar is some extra Eidolons, if Eidolon is a boss in your metagame I think Pillar definitely can find some spots in the SB, mainly against Storm and can be very good on the play vs Delver/Merfolks.
I never really liked blood moons on burn, you are working with very limited resources and blood moon lowers even more the ratio damage/card, even if you do lock out some decks, I think its just not good, you almost always would rather play another threat than some lock piece that many times can be just dead in your hand. Against delver you need to clean the board wasting a lot of resources to make blood moon effective when it enters the battlefield, and still hope it doesn't get countered, against Miracles, they have a lot of basics so its hard to lock them out, against storm turn 3 is probably too late to try to lock them, Merfolk and Manaless is useless... I don't think in that meta there is any of the decks listed I would bring it in, decks that try to blood moon lock are 95% the ultra fast decks that can put it as early as turn 1. Well you were in doubt about the card, this is what I think about it xD.
Thanks, I appreciate the feedback. Ya, Blood Moon seems like an "I Win" cad against BUG and Shardless if it lands but maybe something like Grafdigger's cage to fight reanimator too is better.
Also, I do own fetch lands, but have found them to be less necessary in Legacy compared to modern. And definitely lost a game last month because I got a turn 2 fetchland Stifled and stuck on 1 land until turn 7 or something.
I forgot about a Reanimator player who will be at the event on Sunday. With a card like Faerie Macabre, do I mulligan a decent 7 card hand (2 lands possibility to goldfish by turn 3) that doesn't have the Faerie in it? How low do I mulligan for hate?
I am a modern mono red burn player, and was looking to assemble a legacy deck. Luckily, I have most of the pieces, the only thing I need to get are a playset of chain lightning, price of progress, and goblin guides.
What tips and tricks would u recommend to modern burn players? I plan on running basic mountains because that's what I've been running so far in modern. Is sequencing the same?
Legacy and Modern are extremely different for burn. Modern you're just pointing at the face and going full throttle, Legacy you more often need to point at other threats that will out pace you. You'll have access to much better spells, but your opponents will be doing crazier things as well. Net-deck a fetchless list and try it out on cockatrice or something and just get the feel for it. That is truely the best way to learn. And do your research on this site or MTGTheSource. Good luck and have fun.
IMO you run Swiftspear and Flame Rift to have a better match up vs combo.
Otherwise I dont run either as swiftspear is quickly outclassed and flame rift is a nonbo with eidolon.
That said, the combo match is so atrocious I dont think tuning to have a better match up is bad. With that in mind has anyone had success with Sideboard Maze of Ith? It seems very good vs a few decks that give us issues. Yes it does not work vs Emrakul but it does save the 15 life and if you horde lands in your hand you might get to finish them off. It does stop griselbrand, most every reanimate target (except tidespout who overpowers this eventually), Dark Depths decks.
Doesn't do anything vs storm/doomsday/charbelcher etc but i'm not sure what else we can do vs though except Leyline of the void which then does nothing vs sneak show...but we have eidolon and maybe sideboard pyrostatic pillar to give us some small chance vs the storm decks.
Not sure what the right call is on the BUG meta. Though, Legacy metas tend to be pretty wide open, so metagaming against a single deck isn't necessarily something you want to do. However, that being said, it would seem that running a set of Swiftspear with a couple of Lavamancer is a decent choice. This got 17th at the SCG Open this weekend:
That's almost card for card the list I like to play. I just prefer Faerie Macabre over Relic and run only one Barbarian Ring.
I played the Sullivan list at the side events of a local GP and I'm never again playing without fetchlands and Lavamancer, and won't touch Flame Right with a 10 foot pole. It just felt worse at every game.
Any tips against RUG threshold?
Should I be bringing in grave hate to at least slow down the Mangoose/Goyf?
Any sideboard plan that could help?
Edit: actually now that I think about it; by killing grave I only have to worry about delver... yep, seems like a good plan
This is tricky because you have to out threat them. So adding 2 Grim Lavamancer can work. Playing 2/3 Searing blood/blaze and 2/3 Exquisite Firecraft are effective. Especially, during the later part of the game when the BUG player is holding the force of will for a critical spell. Yeah, attacking the graveyard is a good option. But it won't be effective because they are holding the counterspell and expecting it. Even though I like Faerie Macabre, they are not that effective because BUG is dumping cards in the graveyard, with their cheap draws. I suggest sideboarding Tormod's Crypt, and use the card as a counterbait. When and how is tricky, they are going to counter the crypt but they are not holding all the answers, therefore you can play it on the second turn if you want to slip in Eidolon into play. Don't waste you tormod's drop on lightning bolts. Most are going to hit, when their life is low they would focus the counterspell on burn spells like fireblast and price of progress. I would suggest to counterbait price of progress towards the end. Or hold a few cards and two mana open - and make them think you have a price of progress.
Nimble Mongoose is a tricky creature; he's only threat we cannot touch. Originally, we used to play some global spells; Volcanic Fallout and Flamebreak. The reason why we don't is because our creature are now less disposable then they used to be, and Keldon Marauders would survive a Volcanic Fallout. But we don't play Keldon Marauders anymore. The only trick is to attack them with more then they can block. But in the later rounds hold back and use your creatures to block. They will second thought their attack because you can swing for the win. They might be forced to use bolts.
Delver is a searing target.
Goyf, if he's small enough, it would be wise to take him out. On average the first Goyf is a 2/3 or 3/4, unless there is a creature in the grave they we are talking about a 4/5. Usually, the RUG player would set up the Goyf so it can be a burn target, but leaving the instant open in the grave so you can feed the Goyf. It's a nasty trick to make you waste a burn spell. Watch for this.
I don't play with flame rift or swiftspear. I feel like I should miss swiftspear but then i hardly notice its gone and when I have it in it feels underwhelming fairly often. Right now I play 4 Guide 4 Eidolon which I enjoy as I can also side out all creatures if I want (and do against miracles).
My Sideboard is my biggest concern, I keep trying to add things to shore up the combo matches but it there really isnt a good catch all, you basically choose whether to have a better board vs storm type decks or the reanimator/monster fatties decks. Makes me wonder If I should realy bother with more then like a 1x Prostatic pillar and just hope to dodge Reanimator/sneak show.
Given we have Eidolon in the main, its not wrong to not have any further sideboard hate directed at Storm (e.g. Pillar). We essentially are preboarded for that matchup. I sometimes rock a couple of Pillar if Storm had a good showing, but otherwise find it more useful to just run 3x Ensnaring Bridge and 2-3x Tormod's Crypt for Sneak & Show and Reanimator decks. The rest of the slots usually are taken up by Firecraft (Miracles), Smash, and creature kill (Blaze/Blood).
Given we have Eidolon in the main, its not wrong to not have any further sideboard hate directed at Storm (e.g. Pillar). We essentially are preboarded for that matchup. I sometimes rock a couple of Pillar if Storm had a good showing, but otherwise find it more useful to just run 3x Ensnaring Bridge and 2-3x Tormod's Crypt for Sneak & Show and Reanimator decks. The rest of the slots usually are taken up by Firecraft (Miracles), Smash, and creature kill (Blaze/Blood).
Doesn't ensnaring bridge have problems vs reanimator due to tidespout tyrant? I really like the idea of bridge vs sneak show/random depths decks plus all the various creature decks who wouldnt be prepared for you to bring in an artifact but i was concerned that it doesnt really do much vs reanimator. I was kind of toying with the idea of maze of ith.
Yeah, its more of the Sneak and Show matchup, as mentioned. It isn't that good against Reanimator, but they are more likely to try to Iona you anyway. Tormod's Crypt does most of the heavy lifting in that matchup. If you are really worried about Reanimator and can spare 3-4 slots, you could even go with Leyline of the Void. Comes in handy vs Manaless Dredge too.
As far as Bridge, it's actually fairly versatile. I've brought it in against Death & Taxes and Elves before. Essentially decks that try to win with creatures, but are a bit lighter on interaction. Its not a total lock for those decks, but can buy a lot of time to finish them off.
When it comes to Harsh Mentor the only thing we can do is test him. Here's where I'm at with this.
Playing with this deck since 2011 and watching it evolve has been a joy. I remember the days of guide, grim, and vortex being maindeck 4 ofs, when keldon maradur, hellspark, and figure of destiny were worth the effort. Flame rift was cut for eidolon also due to the aggressive meta at the time. Swiftspear was a way to increase t3 kills vs omnitell when it was fully powered. I feel that post dig//cruise ban the legacy and modern versions became more homogenized partially due to the change in players and how often events fire. The deck hasn't changed much since the bannings outside of picking up firecraft. The meta as a whole has however.
All of that aside, here's where I'm at with mentor.
To get the best effect of testing we should play it as a 4of in the main. If it under performs then we can cut him back as needed, though there are few decks I can think of that he doesn't affect. So then we ask, where do we put him?
I say our 16 bolts, 4 fire blast, 4 price of progress, 4 guides, and 4 eidolons are untouchable. 20 land has been perfect overall considering curve, postboard 3 drops, daze/pierce protection, etc. Either fetch or no fetch is fine, and another question for later.
This leaves 8 slots available for maindeck. In testing we are saying this mentor is worth it, so we play it as a 4 of. Leaving 4 slots vied for by typical cards of grim lava man, swiftspear, vortex//firecraft, blazes/bloods, or even flame rift.
As soon as I've time and cockatrice loads amonkhet, my first pass is to use 2 swiftspear and 2 vortex in those last 4 slots. Reasons being.
Between eidolon, mentor and vortex we increase lockout potential of our opponent. Eidolon gets them on casting, while mentor hits what's already on board. Neither have to attack to be effective, but can and will. It's difficult to keep spinning tops or using Deathrite if it costs life.
Swiftspear keeps our speed on par with where we are at these days by staying at 6 1 drops that typically attack for 2. I was already considering making this change due to drawing too many has been problematic since all she does its attack/block.
Due to increase in curve from mentor that's also why I'm benching lava man for this go round, possibly sideboard contender.
My board so far looks like this.
3/4 firecraft
4 searing blaze
2 smash to smithereens
5/6 open slots depending, typically filled by 2 relic of progenitus, 2 ratchet bomb, and 2 ensnaring bridge//mind break trap depending on eldrazi vs storm expectations. Also considering 2 lavamancers.
This type of setup has served me well for years now. Bombs are effective vs the awkward stuff like enchantress, old builds of miracles(rip//energy field), tezzerator and storm. Certainly have stories of blowing out those decks in years past. May not be as needed now but that's okay too.
Worth noting places where eidolon is terrible, mentor should shine like vs Aether vial decks, being under your own ensnaring bridge, an opposing jitte, etc.
Most situations where we describe mentor as oh well he just dies without merit...why is that? Because he is Worth killing. Yet another must answer style threat from a rather aggressive deck.
In theory he should make price of progress play better, as I'm assuming one wouldn't want to fetch too often without answering him, meaning likely hood of duals over basics for need to not be color screwed lest they stumble.
The after question is if this pans out, and he doesn't disappoint, do we continue to fetch ourselves? I've moved my actual reasons for fetches to the board, and searing blood does exist. If he catches on, basics may be the way to go, depending.
Also has anyone else had an issue with blaze effects recently? Most decks where I want to bring them in....I almost don't as well, grixis delver for instance. Big delve threats and little guys too. How much is it worth?
I look forward to your responses community, keep up the great work!
its been about a month since i last posted, and i thank you all for your time and advice. Here's my deck as im playing it now, it works pretty well. Sometimes i win and sometimes i loose. thats life. Id like to point out that i dont have as much time for magic as i once did, so a lot of my thoughts and observations are based on limited play testing.
Almost every deck i play against seems to use creatures to one extent or another. That being the case, almost every deck i play against has some cards devoted to dealing with creature threats.
How do people currently feel about creatureless builds? i like the idea of turning all of my opponents creature defense spells into dead cards. At the very least, it seems like an advantage in the first game since i doubt most people are expecting to play against a totally creatureless deck.
Im only running 8 creatures and they often get removed before they can deal any damage. if i were to take all 8 out, what burn spells should i put in?
right now im thinking:
im sure ill get advice to loose the 3 Magma Jets. Im certainly open to suggestions, but that card has been pretty useful to me, so id need a compelling reason to dump it.
thanks for your thoughts.
on a different note, i seem to remember an official way to 'thank' people for their posts. Am i making that up, or remembering something from a different website? i see the little blue arrow on the bottom left of each post where i can 'like' the post. is that the accepted way to thank someone for their advice?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
My decks. Feel free to make suggestions. The Precious B___U___G___R___W
Advice is pretty much the same as it was before when you originally asked.
Cut Vexing Devils, cut Magma Jets.
Devils will often get removed before dealing damage, as you mention in your post. Magma Jets don't do enough damage for the mana investment. Scry isn't worth all that much given our style of deck.
Eidolon is perhaps the best card in Legacy Burn. Swiftspear is up there with Goblin Guide as perhaps the 2nd best 1-drop Red creature.
Creatureless Burn has been tried before on many occasions. It just doesn't tend to be as consistent as decks running Guide and Eidolon. Some matchups require you to aim burn spells at other targets, so, having recursive damage is important in those positions.
Thank you again for your replies, i always appreciate your opinions.
I kind of figured creatureless isnt the way to go, but it is an interesting idea. Even if just because i feel like its unexpected.
Ive been thinking about what you and others have been saying about how vexing devil is a bad card to play because he can be removed before he does damage.
Forgive me if im missing something obvious, but cant any card that can remove the devil also remove any other relevant creature? Eidolon of the Great Revel goblin guide grim lavamancer monastary swiftspear
All have the potential to be removed before they can deal damage by the same cards that can remove the devil, cant they?
What makes these creatures good, but the devil bad?
Some have haste, but some dont....
And, you really dont find that the ability to choose if you draw a mountain or not or the 3rd or 4th turn is useful?
Thanks
Burn does not have card draw. This means that we generally have to be able to assemble lethal from the top 11-12 cards of our deck. Some of those cards will need to be lands, so in reality, we have perhaps between 7-10 cards to work with depending on how long the game goes for. This means, in order for our deck to win, we must be able to consistently deal 20 damage with 7-10 cards. Each card then in some sense has to be able to do around 3 damage on average to be a worthwhile inclusion.
But even apart from considering that we have to assemble 7 cards that do at least 3 damage, we have to do that in a specific time frame. We have a limited window in which we must do the damage before our opponent can assemble their own plan and win. This means, we need to be able to be very consistent at assembling 20 damage from those 11-12 cards on top of our deck. This means our cards have to be reliable in doing their damage.
Furthermore, 20 damage aside, we would in theory only want the best possible burn spells and creatures in our 60 cards. There might be many cards that will do 3 damage, but to have the best possible deck, we should naturally pick the cards that have a combination of the highest average damage capability in the first 4 turns. If we ran our deck in a goldfishing program for 1000 games, we would want our average winning turn to be the lowest it possible can be.
Therefore, all that being said, we should be picking the top 10 best Red cards that have the best combination of damage (high avg output), speed (goldfish turn), and reliability (consistency).
Vexing Devil has issues on all of these respects in the course of actual gameplay.
Concerning Damage. There are a few key scenarios that cover most of simple sequences:
T1 on the Play Vexing Devil, our opponent does not have removal. Generally we get 4 damage only from the sacrifice trigger.
T1 on the Play Vexing Devil, our opponent has removal. They opt for it to stick, and during their turn kill it. It does 0 damage.
T1 on the Draw Vexing Devil, our opponent does not have removal or a large enough T2 creature. Again, we'll get 4 damage, but the difference from Play and draw is significant, since now there are more potentially viable answers to a 4/3 on T1.
T1 on the Draw Vexing Devil, our opponent has removal or a large T2 creature. They either kill it before we even pass the turn, or untap and deploy their large blocker during their T2. It does zero damage.
T3+ we topdeck Vexing Devil. At this point in the game, it is unlikely we will be able to score any damage with a 4/3 without haste or evasion. At best it is a chump blocker and functionally represents us drawing Healing Salve or they can afford to risk the damage to prevent us from blocking their likely lethal attack and it is truly a blank.
Under these scenarios, it becomes clear that Vexing Devil's upper limit is 4 damage, and its floor is almost worse than drawing a land. Furthermore, it's best possible is generally contingent on casting him T1. Statistically speaking, we will only have T1 Devil about 40% of games if we run a playset. So, already we are looking at some poor numbers, because at least half of the T1 scenarios involve it dealing no damage at all.
If we say that the first 4 scenarios about equally possible, and the 5th makes up for the rest of our games (60%), then we are looking at an overall damage output of less than 1 damage. Even looking at the T1 scenarios on their own, we are still only talking about an average of 2 damage. Certainly, actual game statistics might bear this out to be a bit better overall, this still isn't a great result. We would almost be better served to run Shock, since it is just about always 2 damage.
Concerning Speed. This is where things get a bit more interesting for Devil, and not in a good way. Because Devil has such a steep drop off of effectiveness past T1, we are highly incentivized to play him on T1. Sequencing is adversely effected as a result, because we have other plays which are also best on T1, like Guide. And we also have competing plays on T2, which often are more important (e.g. Eidolon).
Consider the following example. We have Guide, Devil, and Eidolon with 2 lands in hand. If we play Devil first, we likely delay Guide to T3 because Eidolon is often the better play on T2. Guide is much less likely to get in for any damage at that point due to blockers, so we might have to sit on him in hand until we get an opening. If we instead delay Devil until T3, the same problem occurs with Devil, except we are less likely to get any value at all from Devil. Therefore, T1 Devil is the correct play, but also overall makes our other cards in hand less effective.
As such, Vexing Devil suffers from similar problems to Black Vise in that, playing it T1 diminishes the value of our Guides and Swiftspears, but sequencing almost demands that it is ordered that way in order for us to ensure that we achieve some amount of damage with each card. In other words, Vexing Devil puts averse constraints on our sequencing which adversely affects our overall goldfish as a deck.
Concerning Reliablity This one on its face is fairly obvious. The fact that it is never what we need it to be in any particular situation contributes to the card in some sense adding a bit of RNG to the deck. In other words, Devil depends less on what our hand looks like and how we sequence it vs our opponent, and much more to do with what our opponent has in their hand, something we have absolutely no control over. So we are introducing into our limited 7-10 cards in the top 11-12 cards of our deck to a wild card, a joker, that at best is a +1 Lava Spike, but often will be a complete blank. That means in some number of games, we will essentially have to draw an additional card to make up for it.
Consider the alternative cards. Guide and Swiftspear have haste, so they function primarily as burn spells. On the play in particular, because they will almost always get through for damage short of Force of Will from the opponent. Their floor is closer to 2 damage, and their ceiling is only limited by the opponent's life total and our ability to attack through. Even a late topdeck is not completely worthless, because they potentially allow us to sneak through a chip shot if the opponent either is not playing around haste, or cannot afford to.
Eidolon's floor is also closer to 2 damage. As long as we can resolve him, he will pretty much always deal 2 to the opponent, if only from the trigger generated from them casting a removal spell. At best it has no limit, puts our opponent into a position where they can only cast a limited number of spells, and potentially outright locks them out of playing any further spells without dying. It can even in some circumstances prevent them from attacking with their larger creature, due to not being able to take the crack back.
Grim is likely the closest analogue, due to it having summoning sickness and that preventing it from dealing any damage the turn you cast him. Indeed, Grim is likely the weakest creature of the lot, and it is understandable therefore that decks often only play 1-2. Grim has a couple of things going for it though. If the opponent has no removal, they cannot force you to sacrifice it. It also in some sense has a form of evasion, as it does not care what creatures are on board. Furthermore, and this is the main draw to playing Grim, he is absolutely devastating to certain creature based decks that are light on removal (e.g. Elves). He is a bit like a preboarded sideboard card, similar to stuff like Searing Blaze. While his floor is zero damage, his ceiling is hard to quantify, as often he does the most work not by dealing damage to our opponent, but by preventing them from winning before we can.
Lastly, there's just plan old burn spells, which are always an option over adding Devil. They will much more consistently deal their damage to the opponent, as the axis for interaction is smaller (counter spells and lifegain only). Devil should at least deal on average more damage then say, Shock or Searing Spear, to even be worthy of consideration. I propose that if we were to statistically record all of our games with Devil, we would find that in fact, he does not deal more damage then even those spells, which are not even good enough for Legacy Burn to begin with.
TL:DR Burn should be playing the best 40-1 spells available to it. Those are the spells with the best combination of average damage, goldfish speed, and consistency. Devil has problems at each one of those points. Normal play patterns and sequencing will often show Devil to be at best a +1 Lava Spike, but more often then not a complete blank. Furthermore, Devil has an adverse affect on the value of certain other cards in our deck. Playing Devil is a bit like adding an RNG card to your deck, because you have little control over what you get from him in games.
I'm not going to waste my time and respond to you're post... It is all wrong. You never played with Vexing Devil, and you never played Vexing Devil with Eidolon.
If you really want to talk about bad top draw cards... Rift Bolt tops my list. I'm no longer play and support Rift Bolt in Legacy Burn.
No more Extra Spicy Sensei's Divining Top singletons in Burn anymore. Also, no more Counter-Top locks.
I'm sort of sad about loosing Divining Top option in my burn... but I never thought wizards was going to ban Top in Legacy... This will make Legacy a little wild... Best day for Burn Players!!!!!
Although I do feel a little sad for that were preordering Harsh Mentor for a sideboard option against countertop...
So, with Top (and probably Miracles with it) gone out of Legacy, are we able to take out Firecrafts from the board in favor of something else (since Show and Tell as well as Reanimator are probably going to be the big gainers in new Legacy?
@ox4, I'd note that Soldier is the only person I've seen recently who advocates for Vexing Devil. It doesn't mean he's wrong*, but the fact that he's the only one who would call Nevelo wrong on Devil might merit some consideration.
* I mean, I do think he's wrong, but I feel that way on the basis of his arguments and the fact that traditional burn decks with Devil don't do well in Legacy tournaments.
are we able to take out Firecrafts from the board in favor of something else (since Show and Tell as well as Reanimator are probably going to be the big gainers in new Legacy?
At the very least, those who were packing maindeck Firecrafts can relegate them to the side.
By the way, it's all speculation but people have anticipated an increase in 4C control and 3C delver, which in turn may depress BR Reanimator. I agree that Elves should be a winner in the new meta, which if true calls for more Searing Bloozes in the 75.
@ox4, I'd note that Soldier is the only person I've seen recently who advocates for Vexing Devil. It doesn't mean he's wrong*, but the fact that he's the only one who would call Nevelo wrong on Devil might merit some consideration.
* I mean, I do think he's wrong, but I feel that way on the basis of his arguments and the fact that traditional burn decks with Devil don't do well in Legacy tournaments.
If somebody else likes to play with the devil, maybe they know something too...
The post that Nevelo wrote it based on a perspective of why browbeat is bad. I don't think I need to add anything else to this. If he don't like that devil, that's cool. But he shouldn't tell others not to play with it.
I've also stand by what I said too (most of your set views on the devil is based on browbeat)... I've been playing with the devil since it was made, it never failed me, because I treat the card like a creature. And I use the devil when I need him most, turn 3.
Anyway... Since Counterbalance is dead... I guess my Vexing Shushers are now obslete...
I've got a Legacy event this weekend and am currently working with this list:
20 Mountain
Creatures: (12)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Spells: (24)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Searing Blood
3 Pyroblast
3 Smash to Smitherines
3 Blood Moon
2 Suluric Vortex
I'm not thrilled about running the 4 Exquisite Firecraft in the main deck or the strictly basic mana base, but with LOTS of blue decks (Delver, Merfolk, Miracles) in my local meta and cards like Force of Will and Stifle so prevalent it has been helpful. I would rather be jamming 4 Flame Rift main, but what can you do.
The SB is what I am not sure about, specifically the Blood Moons. Any SB advice with Merfolk, Delver (BUG mostly), Miracles, Manaless Dredge, and ANT Storm all likely to show up?
I never really liked blood moons on burn, you are working with very limited resources and blood moon lowers even more the ratio damage/card, even if you do lock out some decks, I think its just not good, you almost always would rather play another threat than some lock piece that many times can be just dead in your hand. Against delver you need to clean the board wasting a lot of resources to make blood moon effective when it enters the battlefield, and still hope it doesn't get countered, against Miracles, they have a lot of basics so its hard to lock them out, against storm turn 3 is probably too late to try to lock them, Merfolk and Manaless is useless... I don't think in that meta there is any of the decks listed I would bring it in, decks that try to blood moon lock are 95% the ultra fast decks that can put it as early as turn 1. Well you were in doubt about the card, this is what I think about it xD.
Also, I do own fetch lands, but have found them to be less necessary in Legacy compared to modern. And definitely lost a game last month because I got a turn 2 fetchland Stifled and stuck on 1 land until turn 7 or something.
19 Mountain
Creatures: (12)
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Spells: (24)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
1 Exquisite Firecraft
4 Searing Blood
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Smash to Smitherines
3 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Suluric Vortex
I am a modern mono red burn player, and was looking to assemble a legacy deck. Luckily, I have most of the pieces, the only thing I need to get are a playset of chain lightning, price of progress, and goblin guides.
What tips and tricks would u recommend to modern burn players? I plan on running basic mountains because that's what I've been running so far in modern. Is sequencing the same?
RIP Karn EDH
Otherwise I dont run either as swiftspear is quickly outclassed and flame rift is a nonbo with eidolon.
That said, the combo match is so atrocious I dont think tuning to have a better match up is bad. With that in mind has anyone had success with Sideboard Maze of Ith? It seems very good vs a few decks that give us issues. Yes it does not work vs Emrakul but it does save the 15 life and if you horde lands in your hand you might get to finish them off. It does stop griselbrand, most every reanimate target (except tidespout who overpowers this eventually), Dark Depths decks.
Doesn't do anything vs storm/doomsday/charbelcher etc but i'm not sure what else we can do vs though except Leyline of the void which then does nothing vs sneak show...but we have eidolon and maybe sideboard pyrostatic pillar to give us some small chance vs the storm decks.
GRWNaya BurnGRW
GRWJundGRW
CAffinityC
UGUG EldraziUG
GRWBushwhacker ZooGRW
UBWRAd NauseamUBWR
Legacy
RBurnR
UBSneak & ShowUB
CEldrazi AggroC
Should I be bringing in grave hate to at least slow down the Mangoose/Goyf?
Any sideboard plan that could help?
Edit: actually now that I think about it; by killing grave I only have to worry about delver... yep, seems like a good plan
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
That's almost card for card the list I like to play. I just prefer Faerie Macabre over Relic and run only one Barbarian Ring.
I played the Sullivan list at the side events of a local GP and I'm never again playing without fetchlands and Lavamancer, and won't touch Flame Right with a 10 foot pole. It just felt worse at every game.
This is tricky because you have to out threat them. So adding 2 Grim Lavamancer can work. Playing 2/3 Searing blood/blaze and 2/3 Exquisite Firecraft are effective. Especially, during the later part of the game when the BUG player is holding the force of will for a critical spell. Yeah, attacking the graveyard is a good option. But it won't be effective because they are holding the counterspell and expecting it. Even though I like Faerie Macabre, they are not that effective because BUG is dumping cards in the graveyard, with their cheap draws. I suggest sideboarding Tormod's Crypt, and use the card as a counterbait. When and how is tricky, they are going to counter the crypt but they are not holding all the answers, therefore you can play it on the second turn if you want to slip in Eidolon into play. Don't waste you tormod's drop on lightning bolts. Most are going to hit, when their life is low they would focus the counterspell on burn spells like fireblast and price of progress. I would suggest to counterbait price of progress towards the end. Or hold a few cards and two mana open - and make them think you have a price of progress.
Nimble Mongoose is a tricky creature; he's only threat we cannot touch. Originally, we used to play some global spells; Volcanic Fallout and Flamebreak. The reason why we don't is because our creature are now less disposable then they used to be, and Keldon Marauders would survive a Volcanic Fallout. But we don't play Keldon Marauders anymore. The only trick is to attack them with more then they can block. But in the later rounds hold back and use your creatures to block. They will second thought their attack because you can swing for the win. They might be forced to use bolts.
Delver is a searing target.
Goyf, if he's small enough, it would be wise to take him out. On average the first Goyf is a 2/3 or 3/4, unless there is a creature in the grave they we are talking about a 4/5. Usually, the RUG player would set up the Goyf so it can be a burn target, but leaving the instant open in the grave so you can feed the Goyf. It's a nasty trick to make you waste a burn spell. Watch for this.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
My Sideboard is my biggest concern, I keep trying to add things to shore up the combo matches but it there really isnt a good catch all, you basically choose whether to have a better board vs storm type decks or the reanimator/monster fatties decks. Makes me wonder If I should realy bother with more then like a 1x Prostatic pillar and just hope to dodge Reanimator/sneak show.
GRWNaya BurnGRW
GRWJundGRW
CAffinityC
UGUG EldraziUG
GRWBushwhacker ZooGRW
UBWRAd NauseamUBWR
Legacy
RBurnR
UBSneak & ShowUB
CEldrazi AggroC
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Doesn't ensnaring bridge have problems vs reanimator due to tidespout tyrant? I really like the idea of bridge vs sneak show/random depths decks plus all the various creature decks who wouldnt be prepared for you to bring in an artifact but i was concerned that it doesnt really do much vs reanimator. I was kind of toying with the idea of maze of ith.
GRWNaya BurnGRW
GRWJundGRW
CAffinityC
UGUG EldraziUG
GRWBushwhacker ZooGRW
UBWRAd NauseamUBWR
Legacy
RBurnR
UBSneak & ShowUB
CEldrazi AggroC
As far as Bridge, it's actually fairly versatile. I've brought it in against Death & Taxes and Elves before. Essentially decks that try to win with creatures, but are a bit lighter on interaction. Its not a total lock for those decks, but can buy a lot of time to finish them off.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Playing with this deck since 2011 and watching it evolve has been a joy. I remember the days of guide, grim, and vortex being maindeck 4 ofs, when keldon maradur, hellspark, and figure of destiny were worth the effort. Flame rift was cut for eidolon also due to the aggressive meta at the time. Swiftspear was a way to increase t3 kills vs omnitell when it was fully powered. I feel that post dig//cruise ban the legacy and modern versions became more homogenized partially due to the change in players and how often events fire. The deck hasn't changed much since the bannings outside of picking up firecraft. The meta as a whole has however.
All of that aside, here's where I'm at with mentor.
To get the best effect of testing we should play it as a 4of in the main. If it under performs then we can cut him back as needed, though there are few decks I can think of that he doesn't affect. So then we ask, where do we put him?
I say our 16 bolts, 4 fire blast, 4 price of progress, 4 guides, and 4 eidolons are untouchable. 20 land has been perfect overall considering curve, postboard 3 drops, daze/pierce protection, etc. Either fetch or no fetch is fine, and another question for later.
This leaves 8 slots available for maindeck. In testing we are saying this mentor is worth it, so we play it as a 4 of. Leaving 4 slots vied for by typical cards of grim lava man, swiftspear, vortex//firecraft, blazes/bloods, or even flame rift.
As soon as I've time and cockatrice loads amonkhet, my first pass is to use 2 swiftspear and 2 vortex in those last 4 slots. Reasons being.
Between eidolon, mentor and vortex we increase lockout potential of our opponent. Eidolon gets them on casting, while mentor hits what's already on board. Neither have to attack to be effective, but can and will. It's difficult to keep spinning tops or using Deathrite if it costs life.
Swiftspear keeps our speed on par with where we are at these days by staying at 6 1 drops that typically attack for 2. I was already considering making this change due to drawing too many has been problematic since all she does its attack/block.
Due to increase in curve from mentor that's also why I'm benching lava man for this go round, possibly sideboard contender.
My board so far looks like this.
3/4 firecraft
4 searing blaze
2 smash to smithereens
5/6 open slots depending, typically filled by 2 relic of progenitus, 2 ratchet bomb, and 2 ensnaring bridge//mind break trap depending on eldrazi vs storm expectations. Also considering 2 lavamancers.
This type of setup has served me well for years now. Bombs are effective vs the awkward stuff like enchantress, old builds of miracles(rip//energy field), tezzerator and storm. Certainly have stories of blowing out those decks in years past. May not be as needed now but that's okay too.
Worth noting places where eidolon is terrible, mentor should shine like vs Aether vial decks, being under your own ensnaring bridge, an opposing jitte, etc.
Most situations where we describe mentor as oh well he just dies without merit...why is that? Because he is Worth killing. Yet another must answer style threat from a rather aggressive deck.
In theory he should make price of progress play better, as I'm assuming one wouldn't want to fetch too often without answering him, meaning likely hood of duals over basics for need to not be color screwed lest they stumble.
The after question is if this pans out, and he doesn't disappoint, do we continue to fetch ourselves? I've moved my actual reasons for fetches to the board, and searing blood does exist. If he catches on, basics may be the way to go, depending.
Also has anyone else had an issue with blaze effects recently? Most decks where I want to bring them in....I almost don't as well, grixis delver for instance. Big delve threats and little guys too. How much is it worth?
I look forward to your responses community, keep up the great work!
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
4 Fireblast
4 Flame Rift
4 Goblin Guide
4 Vexing Devil
3 Searing Blood
3 Price of Progress
3 Magma Jet
19 Mountain
Almost every deck i play against seems to use creatures to one extent or another. That being the case, almost every deck i play against has some cards devoted to dealing with creature threats.
How do people currently feel about creatureless builds? i like the idea of turning all of my opponents creature defense spells into dead cards. At the very least, it seems like an advantage in the first game since i doubt most people are expecting to play against a totally creatureless deck.
Im only running 8 creatures and they often get removed before they can deal any damage. if i were to take all 8 out, what burn spells should i put in?
right now im thinking:
4 Exquisite firecraft
but im not sure about the other 4 slots. maybe:
+1 Searing Blood
+1 price of progess
2 sulfuric vortex
?
im sure ill get advice to loose the 3 Magma Jets. Im certainly open to suggestions, but that card has been pretty useful to me, so id need a compelling reason to dump it.
thanks for your thoughts.
on a different note, i seem to remember an official way to 'thank' people for their posts. Am i making that up, or remembering something from a different website? i see the little blue arrow on the bottom left of each post where i can 'like' the post. is that the accepted way to thank someone for their advice?
The Precious
B___U___G___R___W
Cut Vexing Devils, cut Magma Jets.
Devils will often get removed before dealing damage, as you mention in your post. Magma Jets don't do enough damage for the mana investment. Scry isn't worth all that much given our style of deck.
Add Eidolon of the Great Revel, add Monastery Swiftspear.
Eidolon is perhaps the best card in Legacy Burn. Swiftspear is up there with Goblin Guide as perhaps the 2nd best 1-drop Red creature.
Creatureless Burn has been tried before on many occasions. It just doesn't tend to be as consistent as decks running Guide and Eidolon. Some matchups require you to aim burn spells at other targets, so, having recursive damage is important in those positions.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
I kind of figured creatureless isnt the way to go, but it is an interesting idea. Even if just because i feel like its unexpected.
Ive been thinking about what you and others have been saying about how vexing devil is a bad card to play because he can be removed before he does damage.
Forgive me if im missing something obvious, but cant any card that can remove the devil also remove any other relevant creature?
Eidolon of the Great Revel
goblin guide
grim lavamancer
monastary swiftspear
All have the potential to be removed before they can deal damage by the same cards that can remove the devil, cant they?
What makes these creatures good, but the devil bad?
Some have haste, but some dont....
And, you really dont find that the ability to choose if you draw a mountain or not or the 3rd or 4th turn is useful?
Thanks
The Precious
B___U___G___R___W
But even apart from considering that we have to assemble 7 cards that do at least 3 damage, we have to do that in a specific time frame. We have a limited window in which we must do the damage before our opponent can assemble their own plan and win. This means, we need to be able to be very consistent at assembling 20 damage from those 11-12 cards on top of our deck. This means our cards have to be reliable in doing their damage.
Furthermore, 20 damage aside, we would in theory only want the best possible burn spells and creatures in our 60 cards. There might be many cards that will do 3 damage, but to have the best possible deck, we should naturally pick the cards that have a combination of the highest average damage capability in the first 4 turns. If we ran our deck in a goldfishing program for 1000 games, we would want our average winning turn to be the lowest it possible can be.
Therefore, all that being said, we should be picking the top 10 best Red cards that have the best combination of damage (high avg output), speed (goldfish turn), and reliability (consistency).
Vexing Devil has issues on all of these respects in the course of actual gameplay.
Concerning Damage. There are a few key scenarios that cover most of simple sequences:
Under these scenarios, it becomes clear that Vexing Devil's upper limit is 4 damage, and its floor is almost worse than drawing a land. Furthermore, it's best possible is generally contingent on casting him T1. Statistically speaking, we will only have T1 Devil about 40% of games if we run a playset. So, already we are looking at some poor numbers, because at least half of the T1 scenarios involve it dealing no damage at all.
If we say that the first 4 scenarios about equally possible, and the 5th makes up for the rest of our games (60%), then we are looking at an overall damage output of less than 1 damage. Even looking at the T1 scenarios on their own, we are still only talking about an average of 2 damage. Certainly, actual game statistics might bear this out to be a bit better overall, this still isn't a great result. We would almost be better served to run Shock, since it is just about always 2 damage.
Concerning Speed. This is where things get a bit more interesting for Devil, and not in a good way. Because Devil has such a steep drop off of effectiveness past T1, we are highly incentivized to play him on T1. Sequencing is adversely effected as a result, because we have other plays which are also best on T1, like Guide. And we also have competing plays on T2, which often are more important (e.g. Eidolon).
Consider the following example. We have Guide, Devil, and Eidolon with 2 lands in hand. If we play Devil first, we likely delay Guide to T3 because Eidolon is often the better play on T2. Guide is much less likely to get in for any damage at that point due to blockers, so we might have to sit on him in hand until we get an opening. If we instead delay Devil until T3, the same problem occurs with Devil, except we are less likely to get any value at all from Devil. Therefore, T1 Devil is the correct play, but also overall makes our other cards in hand less effective.
As such, Vexing Devil suffers from similar problems to Black Vise in that, playing it T1 diminishes the value of our Guides and Swiftspears, but sequencing almost demands that it is ordered that way in order for us to ensure that we achieve some amount of damage with each card. In other words, Vexing Devil puts averse constraints on our sequencing which adversely affects our overall goldfish as a deck.
Concerning Reliablity This one on its face is fairly obvious. The fact that it is never what we need it to be in any particular situation contributes to the card in some sense adding a bit of RNG to the deck. In other words, Devil depends less on what our hand looks like and how we sequence it vs our opponent, and much more to do with what our opponent has in their hand, something we have absolutely no control over. So we are introducing into our limited 7-10 cards in the top 11-12 cards of our deck to a wild card, a joker, that at best is a +1 Lava Spike, but often will be a complete blank. That means in some number of games, we will essentially have to draw an additional card to make up for it.
Consider the alternative cards. Guide and Swiftspear have haste, so they function primarily as burn spells. On the play in particular, because they will almost always get through for damage short of Force of Will from the opponent. Their floor is closer to 2 damage, and their ceiling is only limited by the opponent's life total and our ability to attack through. Even a late topdeck is not completely worthless, because they potentially allow us to sneak through a chip shot if the opponent either is not playing around haste, or cannot afford to.
Eidolon's floor is also closer to 2 damage. As long as we can resolve him, he will pretty much always deal 2 to the opponent, if only from the trigger generated from them casting a removal spell. At best it has no limit, puts our opponent into a position where they can only cast a limited number of spells, and potentially outright locks them out of playing any further spells without dying. It can even in some circumstances prevent them from attacking with their larger creature, due to not being able to take the crack back.
Grim is likely the closest analogue, due to it having summoning sickness and that preventing it from dealing any damage the turn you cast him. Indeed, Grim is likely the weakest creature of the lot, and it is understandable therefore that decks often only play 1-2. Grim has a couple of things going for it though. If the opponent has no removal, they cannot force you to sacrifice it. It also in some sense has a form of evasion, as it does not care what creatures are on board. Furthermore, and this is the main draw to playing Grim, he is absolutely devastating to certain creature based decks that are light on removal (e.g. Elves). He is a bit like a preboarded sideboard card, similar to stuff like Searing Blaze. While his floor is zero damage, his ceiling is hard to quantify, as often he does the most work not by dealing damage to our opponent, but by preventing them from winning before we can.
Lastly, there's just plan old burn spells, which are always an option over adding Devil. They will much more consistently deal their damage to the opponent, as the axis for interaction is smaller (counter spells and lifegain only). Devil should at least deal on average more damage then say, Shock or Searing Spear, to even be worthy of consideration. I propose that if we were to statistically record all of our games with Devil, we would find that in fact, he does not deal more damage then even those spells, which are not even good enough for Legacy Burn to begin with.
TL:DR Burn should be playing the best 40-1 spells available to it. Those are the spells with the best combination of average damage, goldfish speed, and consistency. Devil has problems at each one of those points. Normal play patterns and sequencing will often show Devil to be at best a +1 Lava Spike, but more often then not a complete blank. Furthermore, Devil has an adverse affect on the value of certain other cards in our deck. Playing Devil is a bit like adding an RNG card to your deck, because you have little control over what you get from him in games.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
I'm not going to waste my time and respond to you're post... It is all wrong. You never played with Vexing Devil, and you never played Vexing Devil with Eidolon.
If you really want to talk about bad top draw cards... Rift Bolt tops my list. I'm no longer play and support Rift Bolt in Legacy Burn.
ox4
You do need Eidolon of the Great Revel.
Burn has 2 main staple creatures. Goblin Guide and Eidolon of the Great Revel.
If you're looking to add pressure to the opponent?
4x Vexing Devil
If you're looking for turn-by-turn removal?
2x Grim Lavamancer and fetchlands
If you're looking for Speed?
4x Monastery Swiftspear
If you're looking for a creatureless feel?
Add more burn spells but keep Goblin Guide/Eidolon
I'm sort of sad about loosing Divining Top option in my burn... but I never thought wizards was going to ban Top in Legacy... This will make Legacy a little wild... Best day for Burn Players!!!!!
Although I do feel a little sad for that were preordering Harsh Mentor for a sideboard option against countertop...
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
I still stand by what I wrote 15 months ago:
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/established-legacy/aggro-tempo/488613-burn?page=85#c2124
* I mean, I do think he's wrong, but I feel that way on the basis of his arguments and the fact that traditional burn decks with Devil don't do well in Legacy tournaments.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
At the very least, those who were packing maindeck Firecrafts can relegate them to the side.
By the way, it's all speculation but people have anticipated an increase in 4C control and 3C delver, which in turn may depress BR Reanimator. I agree that Elves should be a winner in the new meta, which if true calls for more Searing Bloozes in the 75.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
If somebody else likes to play with the devil, maybe they know something too...
The post that Nevelo wrote it based on a perspective of why browbeat is bad. I don't think I need to add anything else to this. If he don't like that devil, that's cool. But he shouldn't tell others not to play with it.
I've also stand by what I said too (most of your set views on the devil is based on browbeat)... I've been playing with the devil since it was made, it never failed me, because I treat the card like a creature. And I use the devil when I need him most, turn 3.
Anyway... Since Counterbalance is dead... I guess my Vexing Shushers are now obslete...
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!