Im back for one more round of advice before I sleeve 'em up and try it out for a while.
Since no one's life is on the line, Im going to defy convention and brew around a little. That being said, there are still a few things id like to hear opinions about.
Please don’t take too much with the opinion’s. They are trying to help.
Eidolon of the Great Revel. I dont have any and Im not going to run out and get any this week. Im going to do the best i can without him, at least for now. It might be a mistake, but hes just out for now.
I would like to think Eidolon is the second best creature [in burn] next to Goblin Guide. Some will consider him to be a burn staple.
I do believe there should be two types of burn. Those that play Eidolon and those that don’t.
Eidolon burn is more of a slower/control type of burn. It allows you to draw up cards and play spells conservatively. Although, I do believe Vexing Devil is a better creature for this type of build, because the devil would be played after Eidolon is in play. Because most players see the Vexing Devil as a 1cc Browbeat, they would play Monastery Swiftspear instead. My problem with Swiftspear is for it to be efficient I need to be willing to keep dumping spells, even if Eidolon is in play. Which becomes problematic in an aggressive format like Legacy. [I’ll talk more about the devil later]. Typically, the common creature builds in Eidolon burn are:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear [or none]
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Or
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Eidolonless burn is faster. It’s closer to a traditional burn. I haven’t seen many Eidolonless burn outside of the casual circles, only because Eidolon spanks control and combo players. Anyway, from what I’ve seen the typical creatures are:
4 Goblin Guides
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2-4 Grim Lavamancer*
And burn spells:
3-4 Flame Rift (Flame Rift is a good burn spell but the card sucks with Eidolon because you’re absorbing 6 damage!)
*Grim Lavamancer could be swamped for a handful of other creatures: Keldon Marauders, Hellspark Elemental and Ash Zealot. If you’re toying with creature choices, please try to stay away from creatures that are 3cc or more. Burn mana builds have a hard time to support 3cc spells. Which brings me to your browbeat choice.
Browbeat. Yeah, yeah I know, I cant help it. Maybe its from all my years playing control, but I LOVE drawing extra cards. I also love doing 5 damage with 1 card. Like I said in an earlier post, right now im willing to sacrifice some speed for some staying power. By the time I cast this, Im usually down to 1 or 2 cards in my hand and my opponent is usually way down in life. Ive yet to be really disappointed in either outcome. Its just in for now.
Browbeat was a good card, than wizards made Rift Bolt and Lava Spike and therefore changed burn. Before we did rely on cards like Seal of Fire and Mogg Fanatic and we needed the ‘draw boost’ or ‘damage boost’ especially when most of the cards seldom create more damage than the mana cost. And the other thing that worked for browbeat was the speed of the format. Sure there was a handful of fast decks, but the most wasn’t that fast. Today the legacy format is faster, and I do believe wizards made cards like Goblin Guide and Eidolon to balance the speed in legacy.
The biggest problem with browbeat is the 3cc casting cost! If browbeat casting cost was 2cc – we could be seeing the card played as a burn staple. The 1 extra mana is a high price for a deck that don’t draw/filter out top draws. And at times, you’re not playing browbeat until turn 4 (when the 3rd land is finally drawn and played).
Therefore, 99.9% of the time Browbeat reads:
Play my 3rd land, draw 3 cards and skip the rest of my turn.
I know most players seemed to be turn off by Browbeat because the opponent calls the shots. But it’s not true because the opponent life and knowing that you may have a fireblast will force the opponent to allow you to draw the 3 cards. (I’ve always thought the punisher argument is dumb because it tells me how little the player knows about Burn, the card and game.)
Mountain. Im going to go with 21 for now. During the game Id always rather have 1 too many lands then 1 too few. If I wind up getting flooded a lot, Ill go down to 20, but with 4 Fireblast and Searing Blaze, the extra Mountain hasn't been a problem yet.
Typically the land count can range from 18 to 22 lands. Most players try to stay within the 20 land margin because in the average our opening hand should have 2 lands and we draw up a land within the next two turns.
I do feel that if you find yourself needing to up the land count, you should relook into playing browbeat.
If you really, really want to play browbeat, I would think 2 would be better… or drop all 3 for flame rift or 3 Searing Bloods (or Searing Blaze – if you think you’ll be playing more lands)
If I would be flexing any card, it would be Smash to Smithereens and Price of Progress. There are times that Price of Progress would deal no damage and I got myself wishing to destroy an artifact.
As for skullcrack, I had not seen this card take off like I thought it would. I guess because the Searing cards (blood/blaze) are freaking awesome!
Other thoughts ive had on these 9 slots:
-is 4 flex cards too many? ive considered going down to 3, but i kind of feel that if im tailoring the deck or sideboarding in cards to deal with a certain threat, i should have 4 of them.
I’ve used to play against a kid that would have a mini box of cards that he would put into his deck after seeing who/what is going to the tournament. So you could have a lot of flex cards. But as burn itself, we don’t have too many cards to play around with. You could have 4 searling blood, 4 searling blaze, 4 flame rift, 4 smash to smithereens, and maybe 3 other playsets… but most of the time you’ll get a good idea on what card you like.
Right now I’m playing 4 Searling Blood in the main.
-Vexing Devil. I haven't actually played any games with this card yet. They're on the way and im looking forward to it. It seems like a great card, should i play 4 of them? which of these 9 cards should i take out to fit in the 4th devil?
I’ve been playing with Vexing Devil since the card was made. Actually, I was playing with the proxies when the card was spoiled. I don’t see anything wrong with the creature; I know some players think otherwise. Typically its the punisher argument, but instead or reviewing the option of the Devil (4/3 creature or 4 damage) it summed up into a warped version of browbeat. The worst I've heard about the Devil is playing it as a creature to block and the opponent decides to absorb the 4 damage and you lose the game. (If you're in this situation it won't matter what you do your going to loose).
I do think Eidolon makes the Devil much better. But like I said earlier the build is more closer to a control burn. Usually when I play the devil is after Eidolon comes into play, and typically, I would attack with Eidolon, follow it with a searling spell to kill any blocker. I would have 1 mana open and drop the devil into play. The opponent could suck in the 4 damage, but most of the time they don't. So I have a 4/3 blocker.
If you’re more focused on playing speed, I do think it would be best to play swiftspear over the devil. The cost of swfitspear is cheap and you could flex 4 of them.
On the other hand, I've been playing Swiftspear with Bauble's Mishra's Bauble & Urza's Bauble. I like it because it's fast and in some cases I could deal 15 damage in 2 turns. I have 2 issues with this build. 1, unpredictable, sometimes I'm dumping my hand for a bolt. 2, It runs out of steam really really fast. That's why I'm testing a few other options.
-Grim Lavamancer. I love using cards from my graveyard and, lets be serious, even without fetchlands it's really, really rare that there arent 4 cards in my graveyard. Im never expecting to get the chance to use him more then twice before he gets removed somehow. However....it is the slowest card in the deck currently. It's the only card in the deck that has no way to deal damage the turn it is cast. and i kind of try to stay away from only having 2 copies of any card in a deck without tutors. Every 30 cards i see i get to see 1 of them? it could be half a dozen games before i even pull one. do i leave them? do i take them out for a 4th copy of vexing devil and price of progress? do i take them out for 2 sulfuric vortex? that still leaves me with a 2 of...do i replace them with 2 Monastery Swiftspear that kind of gives me 6 Goblin Guide....do i replace them with 2 Flame Rift, which is sort of like 2 more Fireblast?
Grim Lavamancer has it’s up’s and downs. It took a while for the card to take off, because most players at the time did see it being slow. (But I’m talking way way back when Mogg Fanatic was a burn staple and cards like Goblin Guide were a fantasy). But Grim Lavamancer is not slow when it’s used properly. Usually players would use little grimy to kill of blockers or get around cards like counterbalance. You don’t want to have them in your opening hand but willing to see it later in the game. So usually playing 2 is a good number.
The fact that Browbeat got play at low level events 5+ years ago when the archetype was Tier 3 isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. I'm not even sure you can call that good by competitive standards. I mean, as you mentioned the same decks were playing Mogg Fanatic in a time when damage was no longer on the stack.
The problem with the punisher mechanic is that it's never what you want it to be. This means that the overall power of the card is actually much less than either half on its own.
For example, if they are low enough that they are forced to let you draw cards, they are low enough that a simple Burn spell would likely just kill them. Browbeat just gave them an extra turn to survive. If you need to refuel, it means you are likely out of action and they are high on life (otherwise the situation above). They just take the damage and you are hellbent. Not much better than a simple burn spell in the same spot. Overall the card ends up being either Timewalk for your opponent when you are winning or +1-2 damage over a simple burn spell when you are losing. That is not a good card.
The fact that Browbeat got play at low level events 5+ years ago when the archetype was Tier 3 isn't exactly a ringing endorsement. I'm not even sure you can call that good by competitive standards. I mean, as you mentioned the same decks were playing Mogg Fanatic in a time when damage was no longer on the stack.
Odd, I was writing with the intent in explaining why Browbeat was good and why it’s not good today. I don’t see anything I said was an endorsement.
I also understand that the player supporting browbeat, understands the card and is willing to play the card. It’s not my job to tell the player not to play with the card. I’d explained why I think the card sucks today, I suggested alternatives and it’s up to the player.
The problem with the punisher mechanic is that it's never what you want it to be. This means that the overall power of the card is actually much less than either half on its own.
The problem is how you guys are looking at the card. I never saw browbeat as a 3cc 5 damage card. I’ve always saw the card as a low power replacement to Wheel of Fortune. The only time browbeat dealt damage was when I had 2 untapped mountains – I also knew my opponent was going to absorb the damage because the 5 damage would be much less if I drew up 2 bolts and a fireblast. But those things did happen because burn was a much slower deck, and at the time the 5 damage would be acceptable.
Today, if you are playing burn and if you have 5 mountains in play and the opponent is is willing to absorb the 5 damage browbeat – either the opponent has the game locked for the win or you had the worst luck this round. The reality is, we seldom get this many lands in play. Every land drop is important because we have no way to dig up lands or filter out too many land draws. We don’t have a red brainstorm.
For example, if they are low enough that they are forced to let you draw cards, they are low enough that a simple Burn spell would likely just kill them. Browbeat just gave them an extra turn to survive. If you need to refuel, it means you are likely out of action and they are high on life (otherwise the situation above). They just take the damage and you are hellbent. Not much better than a simple burn spell in the same spot. Overall the card ends up being either Timewalk for your opponent when you are winning or +1-2 damage over a simple burn spell when you are losing. That is not a good card.
I do agree that browbeat becomes a timewalk for the opponent; especially in today’s legacy format, and that’s why I don’t recommend browbeat.
Not sure I follow. On the one hand you say it was a good card and the punisher argument is dumb, and on the other hand you say you're not endorsing the card. Mate, make up your mind.
I think my main point is that Browbeat wasn't good even back then. It isn't that legacy is faster. It's that Burn was less competitive at the time.
I think you get what I’m saying. I’m not speaking in terms of rocket science. I do think you are so against on whatever I said that you’re willing to jump on the attack.
On the one hand you say it was a good card…
WAS… (That’s correct). I’ve also explained why. Format was slower, burn was slower and Browbeat acted like a weaker version of a Wheel of Fortune. And the most important to note… it was the only card option that allowed the burn player to draw up cards.
and the punisher argument is dumb,
YES! That’s because when you or anybody talk against browbeat, you automatically jump on the opponent get’s to choose the best option argument, meanwhile the burn deck as a whole is forcing the opponent to choose only ‘ONE’ option. And for browbeats case it’s drawing up 3 cards.
Once again, if browbeat was 2 mana instead of 3 mana we would be calling the card a burn staple because we are drawing 3 cards and we’ll have a open mana slot to play a card.
and on the other hand you say you're not endorsing the card. Mate, make up your mind.
I think you need to chill.
I think my main point is that Browbeat wasn't good even back then. It isn't that legacy is faster. It's that Burn was less competitive at the time.
I’m not trying to sell you a reason to play Browbeat… I’m not even suggesting others to play browbeat. I’m explaining why some players do like browbeat and why they are willing to play with the card.
Sure burn was less competitive back then, especially, mono-red burn. I’d used to play Necro with Burn, and I’d loved the deck until Trix broke Necro. I’ve got into mono-red burn as a causal deck after the banning of Necro. I’d never thought the deck was that good because Mogg Fanatic was too wimpy and Ball Lightning was too easy to remove. But at the time I got a playset of Ydwen Efreet which I did enjoy their performance. I started to take burn a little more seriously when Keldon Marauders, Hellsparks, Lava spike and Rift bolts were in the deck. Though at that time I shifted from Browbeat to Magma Jet… but I wasn’t noticing anything special with scry. And naturally Magma Jet was dropped.
I don’t play browbeat because the card is a timewalk for the opponent. It has NOTHING to do about punisher mechanic.
I don’t play browbeat because the card is a timewalk for the opponent. It has NOTHING to do about punisher mechanic.
This is what I mean by I don't follow. That's a contradiction. It is a Timewalk for the opponent precisely because it involves the punisher mechanic. You can't separate that from a discussion whether Browbeat or similar cards are bad. If not for the opponent's choice in the context of gameplay, the card would be broken. Browbeat is a trap that has trolled Red mages for 15 years.
I don’t play browbeat because the card is a timewalk for the opponent. It has NOTHING to do about punisher mechanic.
This is what I mean by I don't follow. That's a contradiction. It is a Timewalk for the opponent precisely because it involves the punisher mechanic. You can't separate that from a discussion whether Browbeat or similar cards are bad. If not for the opponent's choice in the context of gameplay, the card would be broken. Browbeat is a trap that has trolled Red mages for 15 years.
You're better off ignoring him. It's too much work to point out an error, and even then, he still won't agree. I've blocked him for this very reason.
I don’t play browbeat because the card is a timewalk for the opponent. It has NOTHING to do about punisher mechanic.
This is what I mean by I don't follow. That's a contradiction. It is a Timewalk for the opponent precisely because it involves the punisher mechanic.
It’s a Timewalk for the opponent because we are talking about playing the card on the 3rd turn, or when the 3rd mountain comes into play.
If not for the opponent's choice in the context of gameplay, the card would be broken.
The only players that would play a ‘Red 3cc draw 3 cards’ spell would be those that are still playing with browbeat. You would still see that card as a timewalk for an opponent.
lots of Sneak & Show, Reanitmator and Lands decks in my meta right now. Whats the best way to beat these decks that are too good at cheating big dudes into play T1 or T2? Ensnaring Bridge isn't enough because of Iona, Shield of Emeria
lots of Sneak & Show, Reanitmator and Lands decks in my meta right now. Whats the best way to beat these decks that are too good at cheating big dudes into play T1 or T2? Ensnaring Bridge isn't enough because of Iona, Shield of Emeria
Iona is a hard card to beat. We used to have Phyrexian Metamorph but the new legendary rule sort of killed that.
lots of Sneak & Show, Reanitmator and Lands decks in my meta right now. Whats the best way to beat these decks that are too good at cheating big dudes into play T1 or T2? Ensnaring Bridge isn't enough because of Iona, Shield of Emeria
Ensnaring Bridge works pretty well against most of it. As far as Iona, I don't think we can beat her once she is in play. Reanimator is the only one that plays her. For that you could run Tormod's Crypt, Faerie Macabre, or Grafdigger's Cage.
Well...i didnt mean to rile everyone up over Browbeat. After playing with it a bit, i have to agree, its out. I don't hate on the mechanic like some other people do, but its very slow.
In fact im only going with cards that cost less then 3. Obviously 21 lands was too many, so was 20. Sometimes it feel like 19 is too many, but then 18 seems like too few. Id rather err on the side of 1 too many then 1 too few.
vexing devil. I like it. Both options seem like good value for R. Last week i started a game with 3 of them in my hand, it was a great way to start the game.
Magma jet. Its only 1 less damage then a bolt, plus it lets me shape my next few turns. A mountain or 2 on the bottom of the deck instead of the top is a huge deal to me.
Ediolon of the great reveal. As i see more legacy decks Im liking the card more then i did. However, this isnt like my official tournament deck, its just thee deck im playing with right now. I play it against all kinds of decks and players. I want to like the card more then i do so Ive been kind of keeping an eye on this, whenever i play a deck that isnt legacy or vintage, it always seems like im casting wayyyyyyy more low cast spells then my opponent.
I feel the same way about Mental Misstep . Its great in an eternal tournament environment, but it looses some of its power against other types of decks.
Im also kind of neglecting a real side board in favor of a batch of cards that i rotate in and out depending on what's going on. For instance if im going to be playing against a vintage deck, smash to smithereens comes in.
Anyway, thats where i am right now. I look forward to hearing your thoughts
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Vexing Devil is going to have similar downsides due to its mechanic. Essentially it's issue is that it's often a complete blank that deals no damage. There are a lot of better things to be playing in Legacy that you would want a card that isn't generally good enough for Modern.
Eidolon doesn't force you to cast those spells. You need to get away from the idea that the effect is symmetrical. Gamestate and play pattern make this card nearly always a good card for us. It is so effective, it's even good in the mirror. It's all about managing tempo and initiative. In some sense it draws parallels with Standstill in play patterns.
Well...i didnt mean to rile everyone up over Browbeat. After playing with it a bit, i have to agree, its out. I don't hate on the mechanic like some other people do, but its very slow.
Lol… I’d never drank the Koolaid that the Punisher Mechanic Sucked. I know that at one time the argument made a little sense but that was when burn was really slow, lots of lands were in play and the browbeat player really, really needed to draw the 3 cards to refill their hand. Today burn is so fast that if you want to play browbeat it during a critical time that actually helps the opponent.
But the Punisher Mechanic Sucks argument is stronger than the Jedi’s force because the argument focuses on a central fact – Opponent gets to decide. Even though, we are controlling the Opponent’s choice. But those players don’t want to see that… Why? I don’t know…
It’s good to know that you realized that browbeat is slow.
In fact im only going with cards that cost less then 3. Obviously 21 lands was too many, so was 20. Sometimes it feel like 19 is too many, but then 18 seems like too few. Id rather err on the side of 1 too many then 1 too few.
Land count is always a mystery. Right now I’m playing 18 mountains and 2 Chrome Moxes.
vexing devil. I like it. Both options seem like good value for R. Last week i started a game with 3 of them in my hand, it was a great way to start the game.
Vexing Devils are the most underrated creature in the game. The reason is because whatever that seemed valid with the Browbeat argument was thrown on the Devil, even though both cards are not the same!
Magma jet. Its only 1 less damage then a bolt, plus it lets me shape my next few turns. A mountain or 2 on the bottom of the deck instead of the top is a huge deal to me.
Lol… When I dropped browbeat years ago, it was because of Magma Jet. Most of the scry peeks seemed less important to me therefore I ended up dropping the card.
Ediolon of the great reveal. As i see more legacy decks Im liking the card more then i did. However, this isnt like my official tournament deck, its just thee deck im playing with right now. I play it against all kinds of decks and players. I want to like the card more then i do so Ive been kind of keeping an eye on this, whenever i play a deck that isnt legacy or vintage, it always seems like im casting wayyyyyyy more low cast spells then my opponent.
I feel the same way about Mental Misstep . Its great in an eternal tournament environment, but it looses some of its power against other types of decks.
Usually when you have Ediolon in play you’re allowed to hold your cards, play more conservatively. Cards like searing blood/blaze are awesome because they do two things (remove a creature and damage an opponent) while you are getting hit once with Ediolon. Which I often cast the next turn after Ediolon is in play. So I can attack with Ediolon and kill the chump blocker. Legacy is loaded with creatures. Which is better blaze or blood is up to the card player. Sure fetchlands can make blaze awesome but you don’t really need fetchlands (but you need to keep playing lands so you might want to consider 21/22 lands).
Im also kind of neglecting a real side board in favor of a batch of cards that i rotate in and out depending on what's going on. For instance if im going to be playing against a vintage deck, smash to smithereens comes in.
Anyway, thats where i am right now. I look forward to hearing your thoughts
I like the idea of keeping the sideboard simple.
Though if you’re going to play against vintage, I would believe Gorilla Shaman (aka Mox Monkey) would be a card to consider. Sorry but I had not played Vintage since the restriction of Brainstorm, but I really have doubts the format had changed much that would make Gorilla Shaman unplayable.
What are people's thoughts on Mindbreak Trap? I know it's commonly used, I'm just wondering if it's considered a sideboard staple for unknown metas. It seems like one of the few answers to fast combo decks. Can Pyrostatic Pillar help in those matchups from the sideboard or is it too slow? Also, what graveyard hate do people prefer right now. I like Faerie Macabre to be able to interact on the draw turn 1, but I'd like to hear what people think.
What are people's thoughts on Mindbreak Trap? I know it's commonly used, I'm just wondering if it's considered a sideboard staple for unknown metas. It seems like one of the few answers to fast combo decks. Can Pyrostatic Pillar help in those matchups from the sideboard or is it too slow? Also, what graveyard hate do people prefer right now. I like Faerie Macabre to be able to interact on the draw turn 1, but I'd like to hear what people think.
I like Faerie Macabre because I can hold him until my opponent tries something. I'm not sure about mindbeak. Since I've been playing with Ediolon I find myself less needing to sideboard mindbeak.
I've seen a few burn decks that actually played 2 Pyrostatic Pillars in the main - sort of making them the 5th and 6th Ediolon.
It's too slow. Take an average hand of 2 lands and 5 spells and one of them is Reveler. Most lists run around 11-12 creatures, so its likely 1-2 of the other 4 spells are creatures. With 2-3 spells and 2 lands, that still leaves you 3-4 short of casting a reveler. So we have to draw at least 3-4 other cards before we are even in the realm of casting it, and none of those cards can be creatures. Meaning, its unlikely to be deployed until turn 5 or turn 6.
Furthermore, it doesn't help with our shaky matchups. Burn doesn't have Force and it doesn't have discard. Against fast combo, Burn's main asset is its consistent turn 4 goldfish. Introducing a card that is a blank until turn 5-6 is essentially a dead-draw and makes our goldfish less consistent.
Conversely, it helps in matchups we don't need much help in. Reveler wants to fight against slow midrange decks, where its own slowness isn't a liability and its card advantage is theoretically good. However, we don't need help with those matchups. Those are are Burn's good matchups generally.
It was an interesting card, but ultimately not quite good enough for Legacy.
I'm new to legacy burn and i'm wondering to not see Bedlam Reveler at least as a 1of maindeck? What are your opinions about Bedlam Reveler?
I agree 110% with Nevelo. The creature is too slow for Legacy and Modern burn. Maybe Frontier could use the card but I would believe that would be a short relationship.
Ive got a couple of points to make, and a few questions to ask... forgive me if i ramble...
Something ive read a lot in articles about burn decks is 7 bolts to win the game. Seven 3 for R damage spells to kill your opponent. The fastest way possible to cast these 7 spells is with 3 mountains over 4 turns, correct?
Obviously you can miss a land drop on the second or 3rd turn if you make it up on the 4th, but my point is to win with 7 bolts you need 3 mana and 4 turns minimum, plus the 7 bolts.
If we change the idea of 7 bolts to include some cards that can reliably do 4 damage instead of 3 (most notably Flame Rift and Fireblast), we can change this timeline significantly.
Again, if you Flame Rift on your second turn, you can play 3 bolts on your third, but the point here is that now we only need 3 turns and 6 spells to win the game. But we have to hit all 3 mana drops.
introducing two 4 point damage spells reduces our need for turns from 4 to 3, thats a 25% reduction.
The first scenario I laid out (7 spells and 4 turns to win) is a pretty common occurrence when I play my burn deck, the second scenario (6 spells and 3 turns) is rarer, but still comes up on a pretty regular basis.
A deck that usually does killing damage on turn 4, and sometimes on turn 3, is pretty fast. (If anyone knows of a way to do 20 points of damage in 2 turns with a mono red deck, id like to hear about it.) What Im trying to do is find a way to make my turn 3 kills come up more reliably, or with needing to resolve less then 6 spells.
Almost all of the burn decks ive ever seen or heard about play these 24 cards: 16 bolts, 4 Flame Rift and 4 Fireblast. If the deck could be 20 bolts and 20 4 damage spells that cost 2 or less, the 3rd turn win scenario that i laid out would be much much more common. If we could even get the 4 damage cards up to the same 16 as the 3 damage cards, the turn 3 win situation would be much more the norm. There are some cards that i know of that sort of fill this 4 damage slot. When they resolve and work the way i want them to, theyre just as good as Flame Rift in terms of winning on turn 3. Goblin Guide. can sometimes get 4 damage in by turn 3. Price of progress. there are situations where you can get 4 damage out of this card on the 2nd or 3rd turn, and it can work the same way as Flame Rift, but its not a guarantee. Vexing Devil. Again, there are situations where you can get 4 damage out of this card and it can be a player in my 3rd turn win, but its not a lock that you will get your 4 damage.
The first thing i would replace would be the Magma Jet, but if i do take it out it would be to fit in something that would help me win on turn 3. Something that could do 4 damage for 2 or less mana because having Magma Jet in doesnt affect my 3 or 4 turn win scenarios at all and if the game goes past turn 4, i find the scry ability is very useful.
in the 4 turn win scenario, it works just fine as the 7th bolt.
in the 3 turn win scenario...it doesnt help. but in order to replace it with something that does help, the replacement card would have to be another 'bolt' (3 damage for R) or something i could get 4 damage out of for 2 or less mana.
The cards i could replace it with like skullcrack or smash to smithereens wouldnt help any more then Magma Jet does becasue of the extra mana they need to get the 3 damage.
Im sure that if the cards im looking for existed, i wouldve heard about them here, but it seems like there are some genres of spells that exist for other spell types (like counter spells) but are 'missing' in burn:
Is there any Phyrexian mana burn, where i could pay life instead of a casting cost, like Mental Misstep? I pay 4 life, but no mana to do 2 damage?
or 'soft burn' where they can negate the damage like Spell Pierce? for example, RR do 4 damage to target opponent. Target opponent may pay 2 to prevent this damage
or 'temporary burn' kind of like Disperse, where the card isnt countered its just sent back to your hand and you can try again next turn. something along the lines of "do 4 damage to target opponent, at the beginning of that player's next upkeep they gain 6 life back"
are there even any vintage cards that could help speed things up here? after a quick look through the banned list, the only cards that even caught my eye as ways to enhance the regularity of winning on turn 3 were Mox ruby, Black lotus and lotus petal.
thanks for listening, and as always, i look forward to your thoughts.
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I'm thinkin about puttin 1 plateau in the main and 3 deflecting palm in my SB to help with all these decks cheating in big dudes on their first 2 turns. Bridge might be to slow. and otherwise I'm just gonna hope the reanimator guy cant get an Iona down before I can burn him up. Bridge still feels slow.
I'm going to my first Legacy event tonight. I developed the following list by looking at all 33 of the most-recent placing lists. I just did it mathematically, so I don't know if anything should be different. Please let me know if so.
From what I've heard, there's: Junk, Aluren, Storm, various Delver decks, and a few Deaths and Taxes.
I would get rid of the Barbarian Ring;
-It can die to waste (which might destroy you if you kept a land light hand)
-It hurts you (both because of the 1 damage and your Price of Progress)
-IT doesn't help you cast Fireblast
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"What's your plan?" Gideon asked.
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
Ive got a couple of points to make, and a few questions to ask... forgive me if i ramble...
I do enjoy talking about burn strategies…
Something ive read a lot in articles about burn decks is 7 bolts to win the game. Seven 3 for R damage spells to kill your opponent. The fastest way possible to cast these 7 spells is with 3 mountains over 4 turns, correct?
Obviously you can miss a land drop on the second or 3rd turn if you make it up on the 4th, but my point is to win with 7 bolts you need 3 mana and 4 turns minimum, plus the 7 bolts.
I would like to see some of those articles because I’m going to make a few wild guesses.
(I’m going to make my wild guesses now and see how close they are to the articles.)
I think those articles are focused on the importance of top draws. Most burn players believe that burn is a arggo-combo deck. It’s a combo because all the necessary tools for the win is based on your opening hand and the next 4 cards you draw (hence the 4th turns). Most of the time this is illustrates this by a draw-bolt-go formula; sometimes they would use goblin guide and fireblast in the formula to illustrate more of a push.
If we change the idea of 7 bolts to include some cards that can reliably do 4 damage instead of 3 (most notably Flame Rift and Fireblast), we can change this timeline significantly.
Again, if you Flame Rift on your second turn, you can play 3 bolts on your third, but the point here is that now we only need 3 turns and 6 spells to win the game. But we have to hit all 3 mana drops.
introducing two 4 point damage spells reduces our need for turns from 4 to 3, thats a 25% reduction.
I would believe this was also covered too. I do believe the draw-bolt-go formula was assumed to be the worst that a burn deck can do.
The first scenario I laid out (7 spells and 4 turns to win) is a pretty common occurrence when I play my burn deck, the second scenario (6 spells and 3 turns) is rarer, but still comes up on a pretty regular basis.
A deck that usually does killing damage on turn 4, and sometimes on turn 3, is pretty fast. (If anyone knows of a way to do 20 points of damage in 2 turns with a mono red deck, id like to hear about it.) What Im trying to do is find a way to make my turn 3 kills come up more reliably, or with needing to resolve less then 6 spells.
I’m not a fan of Swiftspear with Eidolon because one card requires me to play out my hand while the other allows me to hold my cards. This is why I like Eidolon with Vexing Devil.
But I do like Swiftspear with Baubles (Mishra’s Bauble, Urza’s Bauble) and other cards like: Gitaxian Probe, Lotus Petal, Mutagenic Growth… So you can get a mighty first and second turn hit. The most damage I done was 15 damage on both turns, but the hand was really good and the draws were good too. My other creature were Storm Entity and Hooting Mandrills. The Mandrills worked for this type of deck, but they lack haste and sort of acted like a speed bump, at times I felt that the deck needed something better. Most players don’t consider this a burn deck even though I did play a good number of burn spells. I do want to point out that the deck was unstable.
20 damage on 2 turns in mono-red is difficult, it would require a guy that was overzealous in dropping nonbasic lands and you having Price of Progress. Which can happen in Lands Manabond. Otherwise burn is not that fast. Usually, we (the burn player) would know if we are winning the game or loosing on turn 3.
I don’t see any of the searing cards as defense. Usually, they work best if you want to kill off a potential blocker and you hit the opponent with more damage.
The first thing i would replace would be the Magma Jet, but if i do take it out it would be to fit in something that would help me win on turn 3. Something that could do 4 damage for 2 or less mana because having Magma Jet in doesnt affect my 3 or 4 turn win scenarios at all and if the game goes past turn 4, i find the scry ability is very useful.
are there even any vintage cards that could help speed things up here? after a quick look through the banned list, the only cards that even caught my eye as ways to enhance the regularity of winning on turn 3 were Mox ruby, Black lotus and lotus petal.
4 Eidolon, 4 Scab-Clan Berserker and 4 Mox Monkeys is all you need.
thanks for listening, and as always, i look forward to your thoughts.
I'm going to my first Legacy event tonight. I developed the following list by looking at all 33 of the most-recent placing lists. I just did it mathematically, so I don't know if anything should be different. Please let me know if so.
From what I've heard, there's: Junk, Aluren, Storm, various Delver decks, and a few Deaths and Taxes.
Delver decks and Junk decks will pressure your life heavily, so dealing a lot of damage to yourself with Flame Rift, Eidolon, fetchlands, and in minor cases, Price can shorten the clock for you to draw into answers. Eidolon is a must in the seventy five, as is Price so those are out in terms of things to cut. That leaves Flame and Fetchlands. If you're wanting to lean on Searing Blaze and use Grim, Fetchlands are a must, so this ultimately eliminates Flame because your build has Blaze and Grim, and Ring. You can move Ring over to a twenty first land, or put another Blaze into the main for Delver and D&T match ups game one.
I like Ring for counter decks. With it being a one of, you're not going to see it enough for the life loss to really take effect, and Fireblast helps with Threshold. Playing Burn for as long as I did, many players will use their life until around the last five points. Having an uncounterable two point of damage from a land you've sandbagged the entire game is game winning. It also combines well with Fireblast in that you have mana left over to activate it.
Speaking of uncounterable, try to find spots to fit in some number of Exquisite Firecraft. This spell is something I would never leave out in the seventy five.
I think Bridge is main for cheated in creature decks like Show, Sneak, and Reanimator decks. If you're not expecting those, I would take it out for something like Mindbreak Trap for Storm.
Thanks for the reply. The 3 missing sideboard cards are Exquisite Firecraft. The event I attended had the following decks: Omnitack, Elves, Elves, Eldrazi, BUG Delver, Burn, D&T, and Burn (me). It's typically a loaner-deck night (me and Eldrazi borrowed), but I think the other 6 decks were run by usuals and I think they're their decks. Looks like Flame Rift -> Searing Blaze and Barbarian Ring -> Mountain would be good.
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Please don’t take too much with the opinion’s. They are trying to help.
I would like to think Eidolon is the second best creature [in burn] next to Goblin Guide. Some will consider him to be a burn staple.
I do believe there should be two types of burn. Those that play Eidolon and those that don’t.
Eidolon burn is more of a slower/control type of burn. It allows you to draw up cards and play spells conservatively. Although, I do believe Vexing Devil is a better creature for this type of build, because the devil would be played after Eidolon is in play. Because most players see the Vexing Devil as a 1cc Browbeat, they would play Monastery Swiftspear instead. My problem with Swiftspear is for it to be efficient I need to be willing to keep dumping spells, even if Eidolon is in play. Which becomes problematic in an aggressive format like Legacy. [I’ll talk more about the devil later]. Typically, the common creature builds in Eidolon burn are:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear [or none]
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Or
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Eidolonless burn is faster. It’s closer to a traditional burn. I haven’t seen many Eidolonless burn outside of the casual circles, only because Eidolon spanks control and combo players. Anyway, from what I’ve seen the typical creatures are:
4 Goblin Guides
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2-4 Grim Lavamancer*
And burn spells:
3-4 Flame Rift (Flame Rift is a good burn spell but the card sucks with Eidolon because you’re absorbing 6 damage!)
*Grim Lavamancer could be swamped for a handful of other creatures: Keldon Marauders, Hellspark Elemental and Ash Zealot. If you’re toying with creature choices, please try to stay away from creatures that are 3cc or more. Burn mana builds have a hard time to support 3cc spells. Which brings me to your browbeat choice.
Browbeat was a good card, than wizards made Rift Bolt and Lava Spike and therefore changed burn. Before we did rely on cards like Seal of Fire and Mogg Fanatic and we needed the ‘draw boost’ or ‘damage boost’ especially when most of the cards seldom create more damage than the mana cost. And the other thing that worked for browbeat was the speed of the format. Sure there was a handful of fast decks, but the most wasn’t that fast. Today the legacy format is faster, and I do believe wizards made cards like Goblin Guide and Eidolon to balance the speed in legacy.
The biggest problem with browbeat is the 3cc casting cost! If browbeat casting cost was 2cc – we could be seeing the card played as a burn staple. The 1 extra mana is a high price for a deck that don’t draw/filter out top draws. And at times, you’re not playing browbeat until turn 4 (when the 3rd land is finally drawn and played).
Therefore, 99.9% of the time Browbeat reads:
Play my 3rd land, draw 3 cards and skip the rest of my turn.
I know most players seemed to be turn off by Browbeat because the opponent calls the shots. But it’s not true because the opponent life and knowing that you may have a fireblast will force the opponent to allow you to draw the 3 cards. (I’ve always thought the punisher argument is dumb because it tells me how little the player knows about Burn, the card and game.)
Typically the land count can range from 18 to 22 lands. Most players try to stay within the 20 land margin because in the average our opening hand should have 2 lands and we draw up a land within the next two turns.
I do feel that if you find yourself needing to up the land count, you should relook into playing browbeat.
If you really, really want to play browbeat, I would think 2 would be better… or drop all 3 for flame rift or 3 Searing Bloods (or Searing Blaze – if you think you’ll be playing more lands)
If I would be flexing any card, it would be Smash to Smithereens and Price of Progress. There are times that Price of Progress would deal no damage and I got myself wishing to destroy an artifact.
As for skullcrack, I had not seen this card take off like I thought it would. I guess because the Searing cards (blood/blaze) are freaking awesome!
I’ve used to play against a kid that would have a mini box of cards that he would put into his deck after seeing who/what is going to the tournament. So you could have a lot of flex cards. But as burn itself, we don’t have too many cards to play around with. You could have 4 searling blood, 4 searling blaze, 4 flame rift, 4 smash to smithereens, and maybe 3 other playsets… but most of the time you’ll get a good idea on what card you like.
Right now I’m playing 4 Searling Blood in the main.
I’ve been playing with Vexing Devil since the card was made. Actually, I was playing with the proxies when the card was spoiled. I don’t see anything wrong with the creature; I know some players think otherwise. Typically its the punisher argument, but instead or reviewing the option of the Devil (4/3 creature or 4 damage) it summed up into a warped version of browbeat. The worst I've heard about the Devil is playing it as a creature to block and the opponent decides to absorb the 4 damage and you lose the game. (If you're in this situation it won't matter what you do your going to loose).
I do think Eidolon makes the Devil much better. But like I said earlier the build is more closer to a control burn. Usually when I play the devil is after Eidolon comes into play, and typically, I would attack with Eidolon, follow it with a searling spell to kill any blocker. I would have 1 mana open and drop the devil into play. The opponent could suck in the 4 damage, but most of the time they don't. So I have a 4/3 blocker.
If you’re more focused on playing speed, I do think it would be best to play swiftspear over the devil. The cost of swfitspear is cheap and you could flex 4 of them.
On the other hand, I've been playing Swiftspear with Bauble's Mishra's Bauble & Urza's Bauble. I like it because it's fast and in some cases I could deal 15 damage in 2 turns. I have 2 issues with this build. 1, unpredictable, sometimes I'm dumping my hand for a bolt. 2, It runs out of steam really really fast. That's why I'm testing a few other options.
Grim Lavamancer has it’s up’s and downs. It took a while for the card to take off, because most players at the time did see it being slow. (But I’m talking way way back when Mogg Fanatic was a burn staple and cards like Goblin Guide were a fantasy). But Grim Lavamancer is not slow when it’s used properly. Usually players would use little grimy to kill of blockers or get around cards like counterbalance. You don’t want to have them in your opening hand but willing to see it later in the game. So usually playing 2 is a good number.
I hope it helps
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
The problem with the punisher mechanic is that it's never what you want it to be. This means that the overall power of the card is actually much less than either half on its own.
For example, if they are low enough that they are forced to let you draw cards, they are low enough that a simple Burn spell would likely just kill them. Browbeat just gave them an extra turn to survive. If you need to refuel, it means you are likely out of action and they are high on life (otherwise the situation above). They just take the damage and you are hellbent. Not much better than a simple burn spell in the same spot. Overall the card ends up being either Timewalk for your opponent when you are winning or +1-2 damage over a simple burn spell when you are losing. That is not a good card.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Odd, I was writing with the intent in explaining why Browbeat was good and why it’s not good today. I don’t see anything I said was an endorsement.
I also understand that the player supporting browbeat, understands the card and is willing to play the card. It’s not my job to tell the player not to play with the card. I’d explained why I think the card sucks today, I suggested alternatives and it’s up to the player.
The problem is how you guys are looking at the card. I never saw browbeat as a 3cc 5 damage card. I’ve always saw the card as a low power replacement to Wheel of Fortune. The only time browbeat dealt damage was when I had 2 untapped mountains – I also knew my opponent was going to absorb the damage because the 5 damage would be much less if I drew up 2 bolts and a fireblast. But those things did happen because burn was a much slower deck, and at the time the 5 damage would be acceptable.
Today, if you are playing burn and if you have 5 mountains in play and the opponent is is willing to absorb the 5 damage browbeat – either the opponent has the game locked for the win or you had the worst luck this round. The reality is, we seldom get this many lands in play. Every land drop is important because we have no way to dig up lands or filter out too many land draws. We don’t have a red brainstorm.
I do agree that browbeat becomes a timewalk for the opponent; especially in today’s legacy format, and that’s why I don’t recommend browbeat.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
I think my main point is that Browbeat wasn't good even back then. It isn't that legacy is faster. It's that Burn was less competitive at the time.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
I think you get what I’m saying. I’m not speaking in terms of rocket science. I do think you are so against on whatever I said that you’re willing to jump on the attack.
WAS… (That’s correct). I’ve also explained why. Format was slower, burn was slower and Browbeat acted like a weaker version of a Wheel of Fortune. And the most important to note… it was the only card option that allowed the burn player to draw up cards.
YES! That’s because when you or anybody talk against browbeat, you automatically jump on the opponent get’s to choose the best option argument, meanwhile the burn deck as a whole is forcing the opponent to choose only ‘ONE’ option. And for browbeats case it’s drawing up 3 cards.
Once again, if browbeat was 2 mana instead of 3 mana we would be calling the card a burn staple because we are drawing 3 cards and we’ll have a open mana slot to play a card.
I think you need to chill.
I’m not trying to sell you a reason to play Browbeat… I’m not even suggesting others to play browbeat. I’m explaining why some players do like browbeat and why they are willing to play with the card.
Sure burn was less competitive back then, especially, mono-red burn. I’d used to play Necro with Burn, and I’d loved the deck until Trix broke Necro. I’ve got into mono-red burn as a causal deck after the banning of Necro. I’d never thought the deck was that good because Mogg Fanatic was too wimpy and Ball Lightning was too easy to remove. But at the time I got a playset of Ydwen Efreet which I did enjoy their performance. I started to take burn a little more seriously when Keldon Marauders, Hellsparks, Lava spike and Rift bolts were in the deck. Though at that time I shifted from Browbeat to Magma Jet… but I wasn’t noticing anything special with scry. And naturally Magma Jet was dropped.
I don’t play browbeat because the card is a timewalk for the opponent. It has NOTHING to do about punisher mechanic.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
This is what I mean by I don't follow. That's a contradiction. It is a Timewalk for the opponent precisely because it involves the punisher mechanic. You can't separate that from a discussion whether Browbeat or similar cards are bad. If not for the opponent's choice in the context of gameplay, the card would be broken. Browbeat is a trap that has trolled Red mages for 15 years.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
You're better off ignoring him. It's too much work to point out an error, and even then, he still won't agree. I've blocked him for this very reason.
It’s a Timewalk for the opponent because we are talking about playing the card on the 3rd turn, or when the 3rd mountain comes into play.
The only players that would play a ‘Red 3cc draw 3 cards’ spell would be those that are still playing with browbeat. You would still see that card as a timewalk for an opponent.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Iona is a hard card to beat. We used to have Phyrexian Metamorph but the new legendary rule sort of killed that.
Ensnaring Bridge works pretty well against most of it. As far as Iona, I don't think we can beat her once she is in play. Reanimator is the only one that plays her. For that you could run Tormod's Crypt, Faerie Macabre, or Grafdigger's Cage.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
In fact im only going with cards that cost less then 3. Obviously 21 lands was too many, so was 20. Sometimes it feel like 19 is too many, but then 18 seems like too few. Id rather err on the side of 1 too many then 1 too few.
Heres what ive got right now:
vexing devil. I like it. Both options seem like good value for R. Last week i started a game with 3 of them in my hand, it was a great way to start the game.
Magma jet. Its only 1 less damage then a bolt, plus it lets me shape my next few turns. A mountain or 2 on the bottom of the deck instead of the top is a huge deal to me.
Ediolon of the great reveal. As i see more legacy decks Im liking the card more then i did. However, this isnt like my official tournament deck, its just thee deck im playing with right now. I play it against all kinds of decks and players. I want to like the card more then i do so Ive been kind of keeping an eye on this, whenever i play a deck that isnt legacy or vintage, it always seems like im casting wayyyyyyy more low cast spells then my opponent.
I feel the same way about Mental Misstep . Its great in an eternal tournament environment, but it looses some of its power against other types of decks.
Im also kind of neglecting a real side board in favor of a batch of cards that i rotate in and out depending on what's going on. For instance if im going to be playing against a vintage deck, smash to smithereens comes in.
Anyway, thats where i am right now. I look forward to hearing your thoughts
The Precious
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Eidolon doesn't force you to cast those spells. You need to get away from the idea that the effect is symmetrical. Gamestate and play pattern make this card nearly always a good card for us. It is so effective, it's even good in the mirror. It's all about managing tempo and initiative. In some sense it draws parallels with Standstill in play patterns.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Lol… I’d never drank the Koolaid that the Punisher Mechanic Sucked. I know that at one time the argument made a little sense but that was when burn was really slow, lots of lands were in play and the browbeat player really, really needed to draw the 3 cards to refill their hand. Today burn is so fast that if you want to play browbeat it during a critical time that actually helps the opponent.
But the Punisher Mechanic Sucks argument is stronger than the Jedi’s force because the argument focuses on a central fact – Opponent gets to decide. Even though, we are controlling the Opponent’s choice. But those players don’t want to see that… Why? I don’t know…
It’s good to know that you realized that browbeat is slow.
Land count is always a mystery. Right now I’m playing 18 mountains and 2 Chrome Moxes.
Vexing Devils are the most underrated creature in the game. The reason is because whatever that seemed valid with the Browbeat argument was thrown on the Devil, even though both cards are not the same!
Lol… When I dropped browbeat years ago, it was because of Magma Jet. Most of the scry peeks seemed less important to me therefore I ended up dropping the card.
Usually when you have Ediolon in play you’re allowed to hold your cards, play more conservatively. Cards like searing blood/blaze are awesome because they do two things (remove a creature and damage an opponent) while you are getting hit once with Ediolon. Which I often cast the next turn after Ediolon is in play. So I can attack with Ediolon and kill the chump blocker. Legacy is loaded with creatures. Which is better blaze or blood is up to the card player. Sure fetchlands can make blaze awesome but you don’t really need fetchlands (but you need to keep playing lands so you might want to consider 21/22 lands).
I like the idea of keeping the sideboard simple.
Though if you’re going to play against vintage, I would believe Gorilla Shaman (aka Mox Monkey) would be a card to consider. Sorry but I had not played Vintage since the restriction of Brainstorm, but I really have doubts the format had changed much that would make Gorilla Shaman unplayable.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
I like Faerie Macabre because I can hold him until my opponent tries something. I'm not sure about mindbeak. Since I've been playing with Ediolon I find myself less needing to sideboard mindbeak.
I've seen a few burn decks that actually played 2 Pyrostatic Pillars in the main - sort of making them the 5th and 6th Ediolon.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Furthermore, it doesn't help with our shaky matchups. Burn doesn't have Force and it doesn't have discard. Against fast combo, Burn's main asset is its consistent turn 4 goldfish. Introducing a card that is a blank until turn 5-6 is essentially a dead-draw and makes our goldfish less consistent.
Conversely, it helps in matchups we don't need much help in. Reveler wants to fight against slow midrange decks, where its own slowness isn't a liability and its card advantage is theoretically good. However, we don't need help with those matchups. Those are are Burn's good matchups generally.
It was an interesting card, but ultimately not quite good enough for Legacy.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
I agree 110% with Nevelo. The creature is too slow for Legacy and Modern burn. Maybe Frontier could use the card but I would believe that would be a short relationship.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Something ive read a lot in articles about burn decks is 7 bolts to win the game. Seven 3 for R damage spells to kill your opponent. The fastest way possible to cast these 7 spells is with 3 mountains over 4 turns, correct?
Turn 1: R 1 bolt: 3 damage
Turn 2: R R 2 bolts: 6 damage (9 total)
Turn 3: R R R 3 bolts: 9 damage (18 total)
Turn 4: The 7th bolt. (21 total)
Obviously you can miss a land drop on the second or 3rd turn if you make it up on the 4th, but my point is to win with 7 bolts you need 3 mana and 4 turns minimum, plus the 7 bolts.
If we change the idea of 7 bolts to include some cards that can reliably do 4 damage instead of 3 (most notably Flame Rift and Fireblast), we can change this timeline significantly.
Turn 1: R 1 bolt: 3 damage
Turn 2: R R 2 bolts: 6 damage (9 total)
Turn 3: R R R 1 bolt, Flame Rift, Fireblast 11 damage (20 total)
Again, if you Flame Rift on your second turn, you can play 3 bolts on your third, but the point here is that now we only need 3 turns and 6 spells to win the game. But we have to hit all 3 mana drops.
introducing two 4 point damage spells reduces our need for turns from 4 to 3, thats a 25% reduction.
The first scenario I laid out (7 spells and 4 turns to win) is a pretty common occurrence when I play my burn deck, the second scenario (6 spells and 3 turns) is rarer, but still comes up on a pretty regular basis.
A deck that usually does killing damage on turn 4, and sometimes on turn 3, is pretty fast. (If anyone knows of a way to do 20 points of damage in 2 turns with a mono red deck, id like to hear about it.) What Im trying to do is find a way to make my turn 3 kills come up more reliably, or with needing to resolve less then 6 spells.
Almost all of the burn decks ive ever seen or heard about play these 24 cards: 16 bolts, 4 Flame Rift and 4 Fireblast. If the deck could be 20 bolts and 20 4 damage spells that cost 2 or less, the 3rd turn win scenario that i laid out would be much much more common. If we could even get the 4 damage cards up to the same 16 as the 3 damage cards, the turn 3 win situation would be much more the norm. There are some cards that i know of that sort of fill this 4 damage slot. When they resolve and work the way i want them to, theyre just as good as Flame Rift in terms of winning on turn 3.
Goblin Guide. can sometimes get 4 damage in by turn 3.
Price of progress. there are situations where you can get 4 damage out of this card on the 2nd or 3rd turn, and it can work the same way as Flame Rift, but its not a guarantee.
Vexing Devil. Again, there are situations where you can get 4 damage out of this card and it can be a player in my 3rd turn win, but its not a lock that you will get your 4 damage.
heres the deck as im currently playing it:
I mostly like the way the deck plays, I try to generally ignore what my opponent does and just burn them as fast as i can. If you look at patrick sullivans recent top 8 finish, http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=111741 he didnt play any defense at all really. No searing anything or smash to smithereens in his main deck.
The first thing i would replace would be the Magma Jet, but if i do take it out it would be to fit in something that would help me win on turn 3. Something that could do 4 damage for 2 or less mana because having Magma Jet in doesnt affect my 3 or 4 turn win scenarios at all and if the game goes past turn 4, i find the scry ability is very useful.
in the 4 turn win scenario, it works just fine as the 7th bolt.
in the 3 turn win scenario...it doesnt help. but in order to replace it with something that does help, the replacement card would have to be another 'bolt' (3 damage for R) or something i could get 4 damage out of for 2 or less mana.
The cards i could replace it with like skullcrack or smash to smithereens wouldnt help any more then Magma Jet does becasue of the extra mana they need to get the 3 damage.
Im sure that if the cards im looking for existed, i wouldve heard about them here, but it seems like there are some genres of spells that exist for other spell types (like counter spells) but are 'missing' in burn:
Is there any Phyrexian mana burn, where i could pay life instead of a casting cost, like Mental Misstep? I pay 4 life, but no mana to do 2 damage?
or 'soft burn' where they can negate the damage like Spell Pierce? for example, R R do 4 damage to target opponent. Target opponent may pay 2 to prevent this damage
or 'temporary burn' kind of like Disperse, where the card isnt countered its just sent back to your hand and you can try again next turn. something along the lines of "do 4 damage to target opponent, at the beginning of that player's next upkeep they gain 6 life back"
are there even any vintage cards that could help speed things up here? after a quick look through the banned list, the only cards that even caught my eye as ways to enhance the regularity of winning on turn 3 were Mox ruby, Black lotus and lotus petal.
thanks for listening, and as always, i look forward to your thoughts.
The Precious
B___U___G___R___W
other less optimal options Ive been thinking about over the last few days include:
chain of vapor
chaos warp
stingscourger
From what I've heard, there's: Junk, Aluren, Storm, various Delver decks, and a few Deaths and Taxes.
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Grim Lavamancer
Non-creature spells
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
1 Searing Blaze
4 Chain Lightning
1 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
1 Sulfuric Vortex
10 Mountain
8 fetches
1 Barbarian Ring
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Searing Blaze
1 Searing Blood
3 Smash to Smithereens
-It can die to waste (which might destroy you if you kept a land light hand)
-It hurts you (both because of the 1 damage and your Price of Progress)
-IT doesn't help you cast Fireblast
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
I do enjoy talking about burn strategies…
I would like to see some of those articles because I’m going to make a few wild guesses.
(I’m going to make my wild guesses now and see how close they are to the articles.)
I think those articles are focused on the importance of top draws. Most burn players believe that burn is a arggo-combo deck. It’s a combo because all the necessary tools for the win is based on your opening hand and the next 4 cards you draw (hence the 4th turns). Most of the time this is illustrates this by a draw-bolt-go formula; sometimes they would use goblin guide and fireblast in the formula to illustrate more of a push.
I would believe this was also covered too. I do believe the draw-bolt-go formula was assumed to be the worst that a burn deck can do.
I’m not a fan of Swiftspear with Eidolon because one card requires me to play out my hand while the other allows me to hold my cards. This is why I like Eidolon with Vexing Devil.
But I do like Swiftspear with Baubles (Mishra’s Bauble, Urza’s Bauble) and other cards like: Gitaxian Probe, Lotus Petal, Mutagenic Growth… So you can get a mighty first and second turn hit. The most damage I done was 15 damage on both turns, but the hand was really good and the draws were good too. My other creature were Storm Entity and Hooting Mandrills. The Mandrills worked for this type of deck, but they lack haste and sort of acted like a speed bump, at times I felt that the deck needed something better. Most players don’t consider this a burn deck even though I did play a good number of burn spells. I do want to point out that the deck was unstable.
20 damage on 2 turns in mono-red is difficult, it would require a guy that was overzealous in dropping nonbasic lands and you having Price of Progress. Which can happen in Lands Manabond. Otherwise burn is not that fast. Usually, we (the burn player) would know if we are winning the game or loosing on turn 3.
I don’t see any of the searing cards as defense. Usually, they work best if you want to kill off a potential blocker and you hit the opponent with more damage.
The best card is: Sensei's Divining Top
Because you can draw out a burn spell.
4 Eidolon, 4 Scab-Clan Berserker and 4 Mox Monkeys is all you need.
I hope you’ll like my replies
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Delver decks and Junk decks will pressure your life heavily, so dealing a lot of damage to yourself with Flame Rift, Eidolon, fetchlands, and in minor cases, Price can shorten the clock for you to draw into answers. Eidolon is a must in the seventy five, as is Price so those are out in terms of things to cut. That leaves Flame and Fetchlands. If you're wanting to lean on Searing Blaze and use Grim, Fetchlands are a must, so this ultimately eliminates Flame because your build has Blaze and Grim, and Ring. You can move Ring over to a twenty first land, or put another Blaze into the main for Delver and D&T match ups game one.
I like Ring for counter decks. With it being a one of, you're not going to see it enough for the life loss to really take effect, and Fireblast helps with Threshold. Playing Burn for as long as I did, many players will use their life until around the last five points. Having an uncounterable two point of damage from a land you've sandbagged the entire game is game winning. It also combines well with Fireblast in that you have mana left over to activate it.
Speaking of uncounterable, try to find spots to fit in some number of Exquisite Firecraft. This spell is something I would never leave out in the seventy five.
I think Bridge is main for cheated in creature decks like Show, Sneak, and Reanimator decks. If you're not expecting those, I would take it out for something like Mindbreak Trap for Storm.