LMFAO Curby are you really talking to soldier like he doesn't know what he's talking about? And talking about strawmans? Sweetheart you should look through this thread to find how many people ***** on vexing devil before you talk to people in that way. You should go check out the last 2 overflowingly full legacy burn threads to see how active this guy is.
Vexing devil is ******* awesome yet this forum seems to poop all over anything that doesn't read 'deal 3 damage to target player' which is fine, because all these mono red players underestimating vexing devil? lol have fun playing vs vexing in the burn mirror. 100% chance if your opponent drops vexing on turn 1 you lose. What's the choices here? hmmm I could take 3 damage to the face setting me back in the life race, or I can leave a 4/3 on the board and waste a bolt on it.
LMFAO Curby are you really talking to soldier like he doesn't know what he's talking about? And talking about strawmans? Sweetheart you should look through this thread to find how many people ***** on vexing devil before you talk to people in that way. You should go check out the last 2 overflowingly full legacy burn threads to see how active this guy is.
Vexing devil is ******* awesome yet this forum seems to poop all over anything that doesn't read 'deal 3 damage to target player' which is fine, because all these mono red players underestimating vexing devil? lol have fun playing vs vexing in the burn mirror. 100% chance if your opponent drops vexing on turn 1 you lose. What's the choices here? hmmm I could take 3 damage to the face setting me back in the life race, or I can leave a 4/3 on the board and waste a bolt on it.
Good luck.
Considering the guy was calling the 8th place list in the link below the epitome of Burn deck construction and that Vexing Devil is somehow the key piece of it, yeah, he doesn't know what he's talking about regardless of how frequently he comments. There's no reason for me to defer to someone because they comment a lot. I simply do not care.
That deck is playing 11 Pillars. That's the key to it. It has nothing to do with Vexing Devil, but he's using the list to support his claim that Vexing Devil is "A+ Number 1 Burn creature evar!".
Can Devil be situationally good? Sure. Situationally good doesn't mean it is worth playing. I'd rather have a Burn spell that isn't dead when I topdeck it. A Burn spell has an expectation value of 3 times the probability that it isn't countered. Vexing Devil is more complicated. It's probably worth 4 on T1, but it goes downhill rapidly after that as your opponent gets blockers and draws into removal and the capability to cast said removal. You're not objectively evaluating Vexing Devil if you only look at it on turn 1.
LMFAO Curby are you really talking to soldier like he doesn't know what he's talking about? And talking about strawmans? Sweetheart you should look through this thread to find how many people ***** on vexing devil before you talk to people in that way. You should go check out the last 2 overflowingly full legacy burn threads to see how active this guy is.
Vexing devil is ******* awesome yet this forum seems to poop all over anything that doesn't read 'deal 3 damage to target player' which is fine, because all these mono red players underestimating vexing devil? lol have fun playing vs vexing in the burn mirror. 100% chance if your opponent drops vexing on turn 1 you lose. What's the choices here? hmmm I could take 3 damage to the face setting me back in the life race, or I can leave a 4/3 on the board and waste a bolt on it.
Good luck.
Thanks but I'm done debating Vexing Devil on this burn thread. I believe this thread is outdated since the introduction of Eidolon and all input I'm adding is a waste of my time.
I'll start believing the Vexing Devil hype when it starts getting actual results.
Yeah, I remember spending 6 months trying to get players into using Goblin Guides in their burn decks. Nobody wanted to touch him because he gave lands to the opponent (even though we have a 2/3 chance in peeking the next card) and Goblin Guide works against the silly virtual card advantage theory (even though playing creature-less burn is impossible and attacking creatures in play is a card advantage in burn because we are NOT hinged on the top draw).
Today... you cannot build a burn deck without goblin guide
I'll start believing the Vexing Devil hype when it starts getting actual results.
Yeah, I remember spending 6 months trying to get players into using Goblin Guides in their burn decks. Nobody wanted to touch him because he gave lands to the opponent (even though we have a 2/3 chance in peeking the next card) and Goblin Guide works against the silly virtual card advantage theory (even though playing creature-less burn is impossible and attacking creatures in play is a card advantage in burn because we are NOT hinged on the top draw).
Today... you cannot build a burn deck without goblin guide
The fact that there may have been resistance to a specific card when it came out followed by acceptance later doesn't really many anything in regards to Vexing Devil. Vexing Devil isn't Goblin Guide. They're totally different cards. Until proven otherwise, Vexing Devil really just reads "4 damage if you cast this T1 on the play, 0 damage if cast any other time." That's not a very good expectation value for the card. I'd rather have a burn spell that I'm in control of instead of a creature my opponent is in control of.
You know what the difference between Goblin Guide and Vexing Devil is? Results.
All I know is that Mogg Fanatic overstayed it's time in burn because too many players felt comfortable with the card. Sure results matter... but its hard to say how good a card is when everybody wants to play brainstorm.
@elconquistador1985 The point is nobody wanted to play Goblin Guide because they had their mindset that burn should be creatureless and thought of giving a free land.... but they forget that the card is 1 mana, 2/2 and haste. I'm not saying replace goblin guide with vexing devil... please stop it! The only spot vexing devil can fight with is Swiftspear. Those 2 cards should be compared and judged.
How long does it take for people to realise a card is good? Vexing Devil was printed in 2012.
Besides, I'm not sure who you are talking about. Goblin Guide was a 4x in a Top8 deck the very first Pro Tour it was legal. The very first Burn deck that I can find with a top8 less than a month after its printing also ran 4x. Perhaps people were skeptical on the spoiler, but once it got some play it was fairly clear it was the real deal.
Swiftspear is also superior. Many were skeptical of this in Legacy burn even recently. It has the results that prove otherwise.
You know what the difference between Goblin Guide and Vexing Devil is? Results.
All I know is that Mogg Fanatic overstayed it's time in burn because too many players felt comfortable with the card. Sure results matter... but its hard to say how good a card is when everybody wants to play brainstorm.
@elconquistador1985 The point is nobody wanted to play Goblin Guide because they had their mindset that burn should be creatureless and thought of giving a free land.... but they forget that the card is 1 mana, 2/2 and haste. I'm not saying replace goblin guide with vexing devil... please stop it! The only spot vexing devil can fight with is Swiftspear. Those 2 cards should be compared and judged.
"everybody wants to play brainstorm" How is that relevant? Pretty sure we *can't* play brainstorm.
Look, you're trying to draw a false comparison between previous cards that were proven successful in Burn and Vexing Devil. Devil has been around for 4 years and has failed to produce actual results. Goblin Guide *has* produced results. Monastery Swiftspear *has* produced results.
I never said you were saying to replace Guide with Devil. I said you were misguided in your comparison between the two cards. Whether Guide was or wasn't initially seen as a good Burn creature is totally irrelevant to Devil. Your argument is simply "people didn't think Guide was good, but I did, and it was good. people don't think Devil was good, but I do, so it's the same story as Guide". That's nonsense. Whether it did or didn't happen that way in the past with a totally different card is irrelevant. No one thinks Zurgo Bellstriker is a good Burn creature, and by your reasoning all I have to do is name a red creature and assert "but no one thought Guide was good!!!111one" and that card is totally the next coming of Goblin Guide, right? WRONG! See how that line of reasoning is nonsense?
Monastery Swiftspear is a pseudo-Goblin Guide. At least in the Modern Burn deck, I'd say that Swiftspear is better than Guide but it makes you change your spell sequencing to get there. In Legacy, maybe it's not quite on par with Guide but it's close. Monastery Swiftspear is leagues better than Vexing Devil without question because Swiftspear is in the same league as Guide and Devil isn't even close.
The bottom line is that Vexing Devil has had four years to produce results and it has failed to do so. It's not a new card that is untested. It has been tested and it has failed. So far, all you've provided is an obscure list that ran a ton of Pillar effects plus Devil and you asserted that Devil was somehow the key to that deck and completely ignored all the Pillars because it didn't support your position that Devil is good. Results speak, and Devil simply doesn't have any. You can argue that Devil is good until you're blue in the face, but it still won't change the fact that you have basically no evidence to back up your claim.
You guys are wasting your time and your breath with Soldier; based on years of their comments, I've come to the conclusion that Soldier just plays a completely different version of Legacy than anyone else, or may not even actually play Legacy at all.
You guys are wasting your time and your breath with Soldier; based on years of their comments, I've come to the conclusion that Soldier just plays a completely different version of Legacy than anyone else, or may not even actually play Legacy at all.
It's funny because someone yesterday implied that all of us inferior plebs should be regarding what Soldier says as gospel because posts a lot and therefore obviously knows what he's talking about.
How long does it take for people to realise a card is good? Vexing Devil was printed in 2012.
Really? The card has made tournament appearances; I'm not the only one playing with Vexing Devil. Also every the card is shown in a tournament players like you throw it under the bus.
Besides, I'm not sure who you are talking about. Goblin Guide was a 4x in a Top8 deck the very first Pro Tour it was legal. The very first Burn deck that I can find with a top8 less than a month after its printing also ran 4x. Perhaps people were skeptical on the spoiler, but once it got some play it was fairly clear it was the real deal.
Well maybe you should get a shovel and dig up the old thread.
Swiftspear is also superior. Many were skeptical of this in Legacy burn even recently. It has the results that prove otherwise.
Everybody wants Swiftspear to be Goblin Guide 5-8... So it got an early jump... I have not been seeing burn win numbers improving here - since it's all about results.
The problem I've noticed is the current legacy format and eidolon. For burn to compete eidolon needs to be played asap (I'm leaning that burn should be more focused to a pillar design too...).
Sorry but I do believe too many players are making bad plays with swiftspear and eidolon. Either they play swiftpear first, eidolon next they are still attacking for 2 damage (where goblin guide is dishing out 4)
If Vexing devil is in play it will also deal 4 (if not it still deal 4) and if the player used a creature removal--- well it's not being used on eidolon.
On the other hand, if swiftspear is played after eidolon (turn 3) 2 mana open for bolts (before the attack!) therefore the opponent is hit with 6 damage swiftspear is pumped 2 more points for the attack... even though you are hit with 6 damage before the attack! This is usually all before the attack.
Playing Vexing Devil on turn 3 can be done after an attack with eidolon; you could have the opportunity 'bolt/searing a blocker' if desired and then play Vexing Devil as a creature (It will not get absorbed for 4 damage and if a removal spell is aimed at the devil more power for your eidolon)... End results you could take 4 damage or maybe 2 from the devil. Eidolon is in play and the opponent cannot take advantage of your dealing damage to yourself.
Now I've been playing with Vexing Devil since 2012 and the card works just like I said; I think it has gotten better with eidolon, too. I fail to see all those argument you guys keep making because you are saying stuff based on the browbeat stigma. Now why the card is not played? Too many of you guys bought the browbeat stigma.
Would it be nice that I can play vexing devil on turn 4 and it deals 4 damage automatically or have haste... hell to the yes! but lets be realistic here so far there is no such creature, especially for 1cc. What makes Vexing Devil good is that (and I said this a million times) "I don't have to dump spells to pump swiftspear while eidolon is in play."
Sorry... but I do think this burn thread needs to be updated because eidolon does bring a whole new strategy to deck building; I will also add swiftspear... The damage you guys can do with the right cards in a swiftspear build is insane.
And I'm not sure why it's suddenly drop from the topic... but Sensei's Divining Top is another card that should be considered in all mono red burn builds...
As for my brainstorm comment... really, didn't you said you would run U/R delver over mono red burn? (enough said...)
You've been asked to provide evidence that Vexing Devil puts up results. You have been unable to do so. All you have is "I'm playing it, and people thought Guide wasn't good, but I did and it was, and no one thinks Devil is good, but I do, so it is". Everything you've said about how Devil performs is hand waving "yeah but if X happens...", rather than being a concrete analysis. You talk about playing Devil on turn 3 as if that's a good thing? Devil's not worth anything on turn 3. It's a garbage topdeck on turn 3, because it comes down, does nothing for a turn, and dies, gets blocked, or gets stonewalled. It only has value on turn one if your opponent can't kill it and your opponent isn't playing a deck that doesn't care about killing it.
As for my brainstorm comment... really, didn't you said you would run U/R delver over mono red burn? (enough said...)
No. I didn't. Someone else did. Nice try. UR Delver isn't Burn. It's a different deck and belongs in its own thread.
"Yeah but, it's good because I said so" holds water like a sieve. Prove it with results rather than hand waving about how if this and if that then it's probably ok. How many times have you been asked to prove Devil is good with results now and you continue to ignore it? There's really nothing more to say to you about it.
Really? The card has made tournament appearances; I'm not the only one playing with Vexing Devil. Also every the card is shown in a tournament players like you throw it under the bus.
I see two results from 2014 at >100 person tournaments. One of those decks plays it as a 1-of. In order for it to be science it needs to be repeatable. This is prior to Swiftspear being printed mind you.
Really? The card has made tournament appearances; I'm not the only one playing with Vexing Devil. Also every the card is shown in a tournament players like you throw it under the bus.
I see two results from 2014 at >100 person tournaments. One of those decks plays it as a 1-of. In order for it to be science it needs to be repeatable. This is prior to Swiftspear being printed mind you.
The second one was just before the banning of TC, the player played the Devil over Swiftspear on purpose... I wish we could have a few more results... maybe 2016 will be different.
Also, no idea what you are on about with UR?
Sorry, it must of been nhan as the other poster responded.
Mate, you are probably a good player given the experience, but I think you are falling into the trap of having a per card. Card evaluation is pretty hard for even the best. Sometimes we are right, sometimes we aren't.
I think some people are a little unfair with some things. I don't sleeve this deck for competitive since 2013 but in all this time only when the Treasure Cruise was legal the deck change the core of the deck. For me the core it's 50 cards: 18 land's (at least), 4 Guides, 4 Eidolon, 16 Bolts, 4 Fireblast, 4 Prices), in 2013 only the 4 Eidolon didn't made the cut because wasn't print yet. You can adapt the open slots for your style, for the meta or don't play change some number of the core cards.
Swiftspear is not Goblin Guide league. It can be very good sometimes, but it makes you play your spells before/under the attack and in a format with so few mana, given that free information it's a downside.
I only played in big tournaments with open meta and my premisses to construct my Burn in 2013 were:
-Play no fetchs (RUG was the big deck and Stifle make me choose this), I played Barbarian Ring and like it;
-Play at least 12 creatures because it in mix with some "don't Target spells" can beat easily a Leyline and give some game against Thalia;
-Play a mix of 1 and 2 mana costs. I usual play 8 creatures that cost 1 mana and 5 that cost 2. Play only the 12 bolts that cost 1 and the other spells cost at least 2, to go around turn 1 Chalice.
The idea behind this is had a balance deck that can have a chance in all scenarios. In this days I play 4 Vexing Devil and it was consistent. If I sleeve burn today I'm seeing me playing for sure 4 Eidolon. Probably with much less Stifles I play Grim Lavamancer and some fetchs, but I seeing me playing Vexing over Swiftspear.
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Yes, swift is definitely in goblin guide's league. It's not a replacement for guide, and is the first creature I side out, but it is definitely close in power level to guide. It does demand a different decision tree than guide, though.
Vexing devil is not even close to being in the same league as guide and swift. I'd play a host of other creatures before devil, spark elemental and hellspark elementaland keldon marauders to name 3.
I hate Goyf. Its the worse creature in every deck that plays it, and its usually the most expensive non land card. But lets not get into that.
I would cut 1 fireblast, and 1 price. Both are really powerful but you don't want to see more than 1 fb per game, and price can be played around. Top will increase your chances of seeing both of these cards, I would up the fetch count by two. I've been really happy with 3/3 fireblast/price of progress. Just food for thought.
I like your sideboard, I run pillars for combo hate, and exquisite firecraft over vexing shusher.
I feel like Price has too much value to cut a copy out though. There are just some matchups where that card becomes a complete blowout and you end up wanting every card you draw to be a price, goyf decks being one of them. Heck, even if your opponent plays around it by using wasteland/fetching basics, I feel like they're still getting the shaft anyway, especially if they're using wasteland to play around your prices. There's also way more matchups where price is good (literally any tricolor deck in the format, lands, 12post and MUD)than matches where price is bad or at least needs to be cut when it comes to sideboarding (so far I can only think of Burn, Belcher, oops all spells, high tide and possibly Merfolk and DNT off top).
I debated running pillars instead of Mindbreak trap, but after going over the pros and cons of each, I decided I'd rather have the card that lets me interact with combo on turn 1. Both can be duressed, and I've lost to turn 1 storm one too many times to not want the turn 0 interaction.
Why are people opting for 18-20 pure Mountains over fetch+mountains? Seem like it hurts your searing blazes and your percentages against the more grindy MUs.
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Why are people opting for 18-20 pure Mountains over fetch+mountains? Seem like it hurts your searing blazes and your percentages against the more grindy MUs.
That's depends on the player, most of the time it's pure budget. As for Searing Blazes it can be played without fetches, though with fetch and without fetches I still run into the same problem "I need a land to drop."
Thought early summer last year there was lots of talk about adding Sensei's Divining Top to the burn deck to help it being consistent. I've tested it and I do advocate the use of Top in burn more as a staple to bolt! Since Fetchlands help with the deck shuffle it would seem that more players will be moving to play fetches... Once again another reason why this thread needs to be updated.
@Nevelo I do agree... I just wished some of the argument is based on pure play experience and not based on what is said since 2012. Because I played the card for a good number of years and understand damage management I just find it hard to believe why burn players would dis the card. I guess I to too emotional on the subject and I just don't know when to stop. Anyway it's nice to talk about the card...
@elconquistador1985 sure both cards are not the same and at times swiftspear can be more explosive then goblin guide. Had you ever tried to play swiftspear in a classic bauble burn deck? You want to see something explosive you should check it out.
Vexing Devil is more closer to a Goyf then a Swiftspear... But your not going to understand because all you want to do is win the argument.
I feel like Price has too much value to cut a copy out though. There are just some matchups where that card becomes a complete blowout and you end up wanting every card you draw to be a price, goyf decks being one of them. Heck, even if your opponent plays around it by using wasteland/fetching basics, I feel like they're still getting the shaft anyway, especially if they're using wasteland to play around your prices. There's also way more matchups where price is good (literally any tricolor deck in the format, lands, 12post and MUD)than matches where price is bad or at least needs to be cut when it comes to sideboarding (so far I can only think of Burn, Belcher, oops all spells, high tide and possibly Merfolk and DNT off top).
I debated running pillars instead of Mindbreak trap, but after going over the pros and cons of each, I decided I'd rather have the card that lets me interact with combo on turn 1. Both can be duressed, and I've lost to turn 1 storm one too many times to not want the turn 0 interaction.
I felt the same way about price for a long time, but the issue here is that against wasteland decks, especially RUG, Price becomes a pseudo Vexing devil/Brow beat that reads : You may destroy two lands instead of taking 4 damage. In the words of Curby "It will always manifest itself in the weakest option" This has caused me many games while racing RUG/ any decks running wastelands. This is why I've changed my Price of progress timing, and numbers, if I can sneak it through for 4 damage I'll take that, cause if I get greedy it'll end up being 2 while the enemy has 2 less lands, unless this is the first few turns, their tempo loss has never helped me win. Don't get the wrong idea I'm not dissing Price, by far it has the most damage potential in burn, and the reason why you can sit back and play control, thats why there is still three in my deck, I'm just saying if you go up against a good opponent who knows to stop dropping lands, and keep an untapped wasteland, it can really mess up your damage count. Also reanimator, totally negates price, they can play their whole combo on two lands, so they just fetch for island and swamp. Again I agree that when price is good its wonderful, but like fireblast, I'm happy if I see 1 per game, cause thats usually all I need. If I see two price against decks that are soft to it, its usually overkill, cause the rest of may hand could have cleaned up any ways. This is why I feel we can afford to cut 1.
On Pillar/mindbreak. This is totally personal, I used to feel the same as you. I just changed my mind after noticing that pillars hit many more decks than just storm, land a pillar against miracles and watch them sweat, I find its great against elves as well since it stops their combo side, and you can usually beat their agro game.
I've come to realize that there are two types of burn players, those who play control, and those who play combo. Control burn gears their card choices towards consistency, combo burn only cares about explosiveness and ending the game as quick as possible. You can see the difference of these two play styles clash in the last page and a half or when ever Soilder talks about vexing devil. I'm a control kind of guy, I wonder which side of the fence you fall on BasedFuster? I choose not to play mindbreak because I accept that I will lose to combo's god hand. I accept that burn is a bad control deck(having no interaction with storm except for mindbreak), so I don't take the control route against combo, and I'd rather just embrace the bad combo deck that burn is, and try to race them instead, where I feel like I have a better chance. Which is also where pillar shines.
I don't want to change your mind, I just want to share my reasoning with you.
Vexing devil is ******* awesome yet this forum seems to poop all over anything that doesn't read 'deal 3 damage to target player' which is fine, because all these mono red players underestimating vexing devil? lol have fun playing vs vexing in the burn mirror. 100% chance if your opponent drops vexing on turn 1 you lose. What's the choices here? hmmm I could take 3 damage to the face setting me back in the life race, or I can leave a 4/3 on the board and waste a bolt on it.
Good luck.
Considering the guy was calling the 8th place list in the link below the epitome of Burn deck construction and that Vexing Devil is somehow the key piece of it, yeah, he doesn't know what he's talking about regardless of how frequently he comments. There's no reason for me to defer to someone because they comment a lot. I simply do not care.
http://www.eternal-clash.com/event/19-09-2015/top-8-decklists/
That deck is playing 11 Pillars. That's the key to it. It has nothing to do with Vexing Devil, but he's using the list to support his claim that Vexing Devil is "A+ Number 1 Burn creature evar!".
Can Devil be situationally good? Sure. Situationally good doesn't mean it is worth playing. I'd rather have a Burn spell that isn't dead when I topdeck it. A Burn spell has an expectation value of 3 times the probability that it isn't countered. Vexing Devil is more complicated. It's probably worth 4 on T1, but it goes downhill rapidly after that as your opponent gets blockers and draws into removal and the capability to cast said removal. You're not objectively evaluating Vexing Devil if you only look at it on turn 1.
Thanks but I'm done debating Vexing Devil on this burn thread. I believe this thread is outdated since the introduction of Eidolon and all input I'm adding is a waste of my time.
If you want to add any input please come here: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/developing-legacy/667253-burn-witch-burn
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Yeah, I remember spending 6 months trying to get players into using Goblin Guides in their burn decks. Nobody wanted to touch him because he gave lands to the opponent (even though we have a 2/3 chance in peeking the next card) and Goblin Guide works against the silly virtual card advantage theory (even though playing creature-less burn is impossible and attacking creatures in play is a card advantage in burn because we are NOT hinged on the top draw).
Today... you cannot build a burn deck without goblin guide
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
The fact that there may have been resistance to a specific card when it came out followed by acceptance later doesn't really many anything in regards to Vexing Devil. Vexing Devil isn't Goblin Guide. They're totally different cards. Until proven otherwise, Vexing Devil really just reads "4 damage if you cast this T1 on the play, 0 damage if cast any other time." That's not a very good expectation value for the card. I'd rather have a burn spell that I'm in control of instead of a creature my opponent is in control of.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
All I know is that Mogg Fanatic overstayed it's time in burn because too many players felt comfortable with the card. Sure results matter... but its hard to say how good a card is when everybody wants to play brainstorm.
@elconquistador1985 The point is nobody wanted to play Goblin Guide because they had their mindset that burn should be creatureless and thought of giving a free land.... but they forget that the card is 1 mana, 2/2 and haste. I'm not saying replace goblin guide with vexing devil... please stop it! The only spot vexing devil can fight with is Swiftspear. Those 2 cards should be compared and judged.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Besides, I'm not sure who you are talking about. Goblin Guide was a 4x in a Top8 deck the very first Pro Tour it was legal. The very first Burn deck that I can find with a top8 less than a month after its printing also ran 4x. Perhaps people were skeptical on the spoiler, but once it got some play it was fairly clear it was the real deal.
Swiftspear is also superior. Many were skeptical of this in Legacy burn even recently. It has the results that prove otherwise.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
"everybody wants to play brainstorm" How is that relevant? Pretty sure we *can't* play brainstorm.
Look, you're trying to draw a false comparison between previous cards that were proven successful in Burn and Vexing Devil. Devil has been around for 4 years and has failed to produce actual results. Goblin Guide *has* produced results. Monastery Swiftspear *has* produced results.
I never said you were saying to replace Guide with Devil. I said you were misguided in your comparison between the two cards. Whether Guide was or wasn't initially seen as a good Burn creature is totally irrelevant to Devil. Your argument is simply "people didn't think Guide was good, but I did, and it was good. people don't think Devil was good, but I do, so it's the same story as Guide". That's nonsense. Whether it did or didn't happen that way in the past with a totally different card is irrelevant. No one thinks Zurgo Bellstriker is a good Burn creature, and by your reasoning all I have to do is name a red creature and assert "but no one thought Guide was good!!!111one" and that card is totally the next coming of Goblin Guide, right? WRONG! See how that line of reasoning is nonsense?
Monastery Swiftspear is a pseudo-Goblin Guide. At least in the Modern Burn deck, I'd say that Swiftspear is better than Guide but it makes you change your spell sequencing to get there. In Legacy, maybe it's not quite on par with Guide but it's close. Monastery Swiftspear is leagues better than Vexing Devil without question because Swiftspear is in the same league as Guide and Devil isn't even close.
The bottom line is that Vexing Devil has had four years to produce results and it has failed to do so. It's not a new card that is untested. It has been tested and it has failed. So far, all you've provided is an obscure list that ran a ton of Pillar effects plus Devil and you asserted that Devil was somehow the key to that deck and completely ignored all the Pillars because it didn't support your position that Devil is good. Results speak, and Devil simply doesn't have any. You can argue that Devil is good until you're blue in the face, but it still won't change the fact that you have basically no evidence to back up your claim.
It's funny because someone yesterday implied that all of us inferior plebs should be regarding what Soldier says as gospel because posts a lot and therefore obviously knows what he's talking about.
Really? The card has made tournament appearances; I'm not the only one playing with Vexing Devil. Also every the card is shown in a tournament players like you throw it under the bus.
Well maybe you should get a shovel and dig up the old thread.
Everybody wants Swiftspear to be Goblin Guide 5-8... So it got an early jump... I have not been seeing burn win numbers improving here - since it's all about results.
The problem I've noticed is the current legacy format and eidolon. For burn to compete eidolon needs to be played asap (I'm leaning that burn should be more focused to a pillar design too...).
Sorry but I do believe too many players are making bad plays with swiftspear and eidolon. Either they play swiftpear first, eidolon next they are still attacking for 2 damage (where goblin guide is dishing out 4)
If Vexing devil is in play it will also deal 4 (if not it still deal 4) and if the player used a creature removal--- well it's not being used on eidolon.
On the other hand, if swiftspear is played after eidolon (turn 3) 2 mana open for bolts (before the attack!) therefore the opponent is hit with 6 damage swiftspear is pumped 2 more points for the attack... even though you are hit with 6 damage before the attack! This is usually all before the attack.
Playing Vexing Devil on turn 3 can be done after an attack with eidolon; you could have the opportunity 'bolt/searing a blocker' if desired and then play Vexing Devil as a creature (It will not get absorbed for 4 damage and if a removal spell is aimed at the devil more power for your eidolon)... End results you could take 4 damage or maybe 2 from the devil. Eidolon is in play and the opponent cannot take advantage of your dealing damage to yourself.
Now I've been playing with Vexing Devil since 2012 and the card works just like I said; I think it has gotten better with eidolon, too. I fail to see all those argument you guys keep making because you are saying stuff based on the browbeat stigma. Now why the card is not played? Too many of you guys bought the browbeat stigma.
Would it be nice that I can play vexing devil on turn 4 and it deals 4 damage automatically or have haste... hell to the yes! but lets be realistic here so far there is no such creature, especially for 1cc. What makes Vexing Devil good is that (and I said this a million times) "I don't have to dump spells to pump swiftspear while eidolon is in play."
Sorry... but I do think this burn thread needs to be updated because eidolon does bring a whole new strategy to deck building; I will also add swiftspear... The damage you guys can do with the right cards in a swiftspear build is insane.
And I'm not sure why it's suddenly drop from the topic... but Sensei's Divining Top is another card that should be considered in all mono red burn builds...
As for my brainstorm comment... really, didn't you said you would run U/R delver over mono red burn? (enough said...)
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
No. I didn't. Someone else did. Nice try. UR Delver isn't Burn. It's a different deck and belongs in its own thread.
"Yeah but, it's good because I said so" holds water like a sieve. Prove it with results rather than hand waving about how if this and if that then it's probably ok. How many times have you been asked to prove Devil is good with results now and you continue to ignore it? There's really nothing more to say to you about it.
I wasn't talking to you... If Nevelo didn't say it then I made a mistake.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
I see two results from 2014 at >100 person tournaments. One of those decks plays it as a 1-of. In order for it to be science it needs to be repeatable. This is prior to Swiftspear being printed mind you.
Also, no idea what you are on about with UR?
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
turns out it's hard to search the keyword UR in a bURn topic
"Are you serious?" Chandra replied.
The second one was just before the banning of TC, the player played the Devil over Swiftspear on purpose... I wish we could have a few more results... maybe 2016 will be different.
Sorry, it must of been nhan as the other poster responded.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Mate, you are probably a good player given the experience, but I think you are falling into the trap of having a per card. Card evaluation is pretty hard for even the best. Sometimes we are right, sometimes we aren't.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Swiftspear is not Goblin Guide league. It can be very good sometimes, but it makes you play your spells before/under the attack and in a format with so few mana, given that free information it's a downside.
I only played in big tournaments with open meta and my premisses to construct my Burn in 2013 were:
-Play no fetchs (RUG was the big deck and Stifle make me choose this), I played Barbarian Ring and like it;
-Play at least 12 creatures because it in mix with some "don't Target spells" can beat easily a Leyline and give some game against Thalia;
-Play a mix of 1 and 2 mana costs. I usual play 8 creatures that cost 1 mana and 5 that cost 2. Play only the 12 bolts that cost 1 and the other spells cost at least 2, to go around turn 1 Chalice.
The idea behind this is had a balance deck that can have a chance in all scenarios. In this days I play 4 Vexing Devil and it was consistent. If I sleeve burn today I'm seeing me playing for sure 4 Eidolon. Probably with much less Stifles I play Grim Lavamancer and some fetchs, but I seeing me playing Vexing over Swiftspear.
Modern: Grixis DS ; UR Phoenix ; Storm ; Burn
Standard: MonoRed ; Ral Spells ; UR Phoenix ; Izzet Drakes
Commander: Locust God
Vexing devil is not even close to being in the same league as guide and swift. I'd play a host of other creatures before devil, spark elemental and hellspark elementaland keldon marauders to name 3.
I feel like Price has too much value to cut a copy out though. There are just some matchups where that card becomes a complete blowout and you end up wanting every card you draw to be a price, goyf decks being one of them. Heck, even if your opponent plays around it by using wasteland/fetching basics, I feel like they're still getting the shaft anyway, especially if they're using wasteland to play around your prices. There's also way more matchups where price is good (literally any tricolor deck in the format, lands, 12post and MUD)than matches where price is bad or at least needs to be cut when it comes to sideboarding (so far I can only think of Burn, Belcher, oops all spells, high tide and possibly Merfolk and DNT off top).
I debated running pillars instead of Mindbreak trap, but after going over the pros and cons of each, I decided I'd rather have the card that lets me interact with combo on turn 1. Both can be duressed, and I've lost to turn 1 storm one too many times to not want the turn 0 interaction.
Enjoy Standard, Modern and Music (also some Pauper, Momir, Gaming, Animations and Legacy)? Then visit my channel:Here
That's depends on the player, most of the time it's pure budget. As for Searing Blazes it can be played without fetches, though with fetch and without fetches I still run into the same problem "I need a land to drop."
Thought early summer last year there was lots of talk about adding Sensei's Divining Top to the burn deck to help it being consistent. I've tested it and I do advocate the use of Top in burn more as a staple to bolt! Since Fetchlands help with the deck shuffle it would seem that more players will be moving to play fetches... Once again another reason why this thread needs to be updated.
@Nevelo I do agree... I just wished some of the argument is based on pure play experience and not based on what is said since 2012. Because I played the card for a good number of years and understand damage management I just find it hard to believe why burn players would dis the card. I guess I to too emotional on the subject and I just don't know when to stop. Anyway it's nice to talk about the card...
@elconquistador1985 sure both cards are not the same and at times swiftspear can be more explosive then goblin guide. Had you ever tried to play swiftspear in a classic bauble burn deck? You want to see something explosive you should check it out.
Vexing Devil is more closer to a Goyf then a Swiftspear... But your not going to understand because all you want to do is win the argument.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
I felt the same way about price for a long time, but the issue here is that against wasteland decks, especially RUG, Price becomes a pseudo Vexing devil/Brow beat that reads : You may destroy two lands instead of taking 4 damage. In the words of Curby "It will always manifest itself in the weakest option" This has caused me many games while racing RUG/ any decks running wastelands. This is why I've changed my Price of progress timing, and numbers, if I can sneak it through for 4 damage I'll take that, cause if I get greedy it'll end up being 2 while the enemy has 2 less lands, unless this is the first few turns, their tempo loss has never helped me win. Don't get the wrong idea I'm not dissing Price, by far it has the most damage potential in burn, and the reason why you can sit back and play control, thats why there is still three in my deck, I'm just saying if you go up against a good opponent who knows to stop dropping lands, and keep an untapped wasteland, it can really mess up your damage count. Also reanimator, totally negates price, they can play their whole combo on two lands, so they just fetch for island and swamp. Again I agree that when price is good its wonderful, but like fireblast, I'm happy if I see 1 per game, cause thats usually all I need. If I see two price against decks that are soft to it, its usually overkill, cause the rest of may hand could have cleaned up any ways. This is why I feel we can afford to cut 1.
On Pillar/mindbreak. This is totally personal, I used to feel the same as you. I just changed my mind after noticing that pillars hit many more decks than just storm, land a pillar against miracles and watch them sweat, I find its great against elves as well since it stops their combo side, and you can usually beat their agro game.
I've come to realize that there are two types of burn players, those who play control, and those who play combo. Control burn gears their card choices towards consistency, combo burn only cares about explosiveness and ending the game as quick as possible. You can see the difference of these two play styles clash in the last page and a half or when ever Soilder talks about vexing devil. I'm a control kind of guy, I wonder which side of the fence you fall on BasedFuster? I choose not to play mindbreak because I accept that I will lose to combo's god hand. I accept that burn is a bad control deck(having no interaction with storm except for mindbreak), so I don't take the control route against combo, and I'd rather just embrace the bad combo deck that burn is, and try to race them instead, where I feel like I have a better chance. Which is also where pillar shines.
I don't want to change your mind, I just want to share my reasoning with you.
RIP Karn EDH