In that case, let me ask you this: do you think it's horrible to run 19 lands instead of 20? I'm trying to polish my deck and I just....can't....fit it all.
Nope, not horrible. I run 19 with 2 Vortex and 4 Fireblast. 20 felt like too many in testing.
I don't get to play Legacy a heap due to where I live, but on business travel I sometimes get some games. With that setup I'm something like 14-1 at Tuesday night magic (~30 players with Tier 1 decks). That was 2x 5-0 and 1x 4-1. Also played a 8 round Legacy side event at a GP and went 5-3, with a couple losses coming from combo decks (lost T1 twice in one match and went 2-1 vs Solitary Confinement.dec). Can't remember mana issues being a defining factor in any of the losses.
I took a break from mtg to focus on RL for a few months, so I'm coming back to a few questions.
1) what's replacing REB? I'm hearing that it's exquisite fire craft - but I'm still not entirely sold on the reasons.
2) I was used to seeing powder kegs and pitching needles in the sideboard, are they both gone?
3) what's the verdict on swift spears?
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1) Vexing Shusher is one of the alternatives for Blasts. Mindbreak trap as well. Depends on what matchup you're targeting. I don't think every list even has an effect or equivalent.
2) I don't remember Powder Keg ever being a thing for Burn, at least not any time in the last few years. Pithing Needle gets play still in sideboards. It's about as common as most sideboard cards really (i.e. sporadic).
3) Lately results have heavily favoured having Swiftspear. I think it's somewhat Metaspecific, but until there is a major shake up this is likely the better build.
Powder keg was mostly used before Ratchet Bomb as a tool against dredge and Empty the Warren versions of storm combo. I suppose the question could be better worded as "is this still considered better than ensnaring bridge?"
Thanks!
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Just like the many lives.
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- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
Vexing Shusher is nice because the ability provides cover for multiple spells. However, you generally want to use it the same turn you cast it, so it becomes very mana intensive. Firecraft seems to be the most common goto for Miracles lately, so going off frequency alone it appears to be the better option. No need for a setup, large amount of mana, and other cards. Just need them within range before they establish the lock.
Concerning keg or bomb. What I mean is neither see play in Burn (at least in the past few years). Tendrils tends to be the main kill for Storm, so I suppose there is that. Otherwise keg/bomb are super narrow. I wouldn't even side in Ensnaring Bridge vs Storm. Bridge is more to combat the "cheat in a fatty" combo decks.
So, I am mostly a Modern player, but the format is not....secure. I have a Modern Burn deck built, Naya, and I am wondering how much time/effort/money it would take to convert it. is there close enough to a stock list in this format.and please forgive me,I really know very little about Legacy, is Burn even a reasonable choice? I only know the horror stories of obscene combo decks, much of which is obvious myth, but is Burn good here? I don't want to give up MtG, but EDH isn't doing it for me and my Modern decks are apparently all fair game for bans, gotta try a new format.
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Burn isn't Tier 1 in Legacy. So if you want something very competitive like Modern Burn is, then you might be disappointed.
Otherwise, it's pretty cheap to build if you already have Guides, Eidolons, and Fetches. You'll need to pickup some Chain Lightning, Fireblast, and Price of Progress and then the main is more or less built. Main thing is to pickup sideboard cards, but most are inexpensive.
Check back a page or two for lists. Most are the same within a few cards (at least main).
Actually, there is a lot of weird brews in the thread recently. Here is a somewhat recent top 16 list from a GP:
So, I am mostly a Modern player, but the format is not....secure. I have a Modern Burn deck built, Naya, and I am wondering how much time/effort/money it would take to convert it. is there close enough to a stock list in this format.and please forgive me,I really know very little about Legacy, is Burn even a reasonable choice? I only know the horror stories of obscene combo decks, much of which is obvious myth, but is Burn good here? I don't want to give up MtG, but EDH isn't doing it for me and my Modern decks are apparently all fair game for bans, gotta try a new format.
The most expensive burn spells you need is Chain Lightning. They sometimes go between 15 to 20 dollars. Depends on where you shop. Next is Price of Progress, they are usually running 5 dollars each (but you can get away with 3 in a deck). Next is fireblast (most important burn spell and the cheapest) they are 75 cents to 1 dollars, not often more.
I don't think burn is as bad as most assume. I do think players are pushing the wrong cards. Eidolon and Swiftspear don't work well together. And because combo and 1cc spells are mostly played in legacy - it would be best to put Eidolon in play ASAP! But players see how explosive Swiftspear can be and are often delaying the Eidolon drop or absorbing a 4 damage hit for a Swiftspear attack. I do think Eidolon is more for a slower/control burn build.
I love Vexing Devil as an alternative to Swiftspear. Though players seemed to judge the Devil to Browbeat. I personally believe that players are overlooking the real reason why browbeat sucks (you are skipping turn 3 to draw 3 cards) while the devil can be played on turn 1. There was a 'burn deck' that used Vexing Devil in a tournament a few months ago (or early spring) that did very well. Sorry, I'm not sure how to find that deck but I know it's been posted on this thread. Maybe others can find it.
Burn isn't Tier 1 in Legacy. So if you want something very competitive like Modern Burn is, then you might be disappointed.
Otherwise, it's pretty cheap to build if you already have Guides, Eidolons, and Fetches. You'll need to pickup some Chain Lightning, Fireblast, and Price of Progress and then the main is more or less built. Main thing is to pickup sideboard cards, but most are inexpensive.
Check back a page or two for lists. Most are the same within a few cards (at least main).
Actually, there is a lot of weird brews in the thread recently. Here is a somewhat recent top 16 list from a GP:
awesome! that seems like a pretty easy transition! thanks
I don't need very competetive, but I would like to have a fighting chance at my lgs....is Burn at least that good?
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Legacy is a wide open format, so you don't have to be Tier 1 to be competitive. Burn is a bit meta specific though. We struggle a bit with some of the fast combo decks due to not having Force of Will. But I find that our matchup against the typical 3-color midrangy decks is pretty good. I've taken down plenty of LGS events and top 32 a 100 man side event at a GP. If you run hot and don't get paired with your bad matchups you can win.
Someone in the casual forums mentioned molten vortex. Has anyone tested this in legacy burn? It seems similar to lavamancer in giving the deck a late game, but doesn't benefit from fetches as much.
I was a proponent of it when it was spoiled as a 1-of. However, it was awkward to draw early (basically useless). It also pulls in a different direction than Fireblast.
Legacy is a wide open format, so you don't have to be Tier 1 to be competitive. Burn is a bit meta specific though. We struggle a bit with some of the fast combo decks due to not having Force of Will. But I find that our matchup against the typical 3-color midrangy decks is pretty good. I've taken down plenty of LGS events and top 32 a 100 man side event at a GP. If you run hot and don't get paired with your bad matchups you can win.
On the money. I went to a team tournament my LGS had last month and played in the Legacy portion. I went 1-3 due to an unfavorable meta, since I lost to Death and Taxes, dredge, and storm, but won against shardless BUG. Most of the time though, I find that the topdecks are wild since we don't have brainstorm, and I feel like I lose more to variance than anything else. I lost the DNT and dredge matchups due to not drawing any sideboarded cards, and I lost against storm because I had to mull to 4 game 1, and I failed to draw my 1cmc burn late game for game 3. Overall the meta was pretty bad for burn because there were plenty of combo decks and an RIP/Helm deck that ended up winning.
In short, I feel like this deck's main weakness is that it doesn't and it can't run brainstorm. It loses to its own variance, despite it having the best topdecks in the format. I felt like every matchup could have been winnable had my deck not decided to just screw me over with poor topdecks.
Burn isn't Tier 1 in Legacy. So if you want something very competitive like M
Actually, there is a lot of weird brews in the thread recently. Here is a somewhat recent top 16 list from a GP:
I decided to finish out this list on MTGO to start getting some reps in before going out into the real world to explore legacy. The only difference is I'm running 4x Vexing Devil instead of 4x Eidolon of the Great Revel. I have to say, there has been quite a bit of back-and-forth with discussion of Vexing Devil, and I can now see why. When I first saw this, I thought it was quite good. Logic: 4 damage for R, or trades for a card in nearly every situation, which seems efficient. But, overall, it has simply been unimpressive. Yes, it does get the opponent down to 15 after turn 1 is over (above average chance of opponent fetching turn 1), but that's just it. Or, they let it resolve and just bolt it. I'm starting to see that the impact of powerful legacy cards needs to be a bit more, and I do love playing Goblin Guide over Vexing Devil. This isn't revolutionary news, I know, but as a returning player to the format with about a dozen reps in with this list, I wanted to share my insight.
Burn isn't Tier 1 in Legacy. So if you want something very competitive like M
Actually, there is a lot of weird brews in the thread recently. Here is a somewhat recent top 16 list from a GP:
I decided to finish out this list on MTGO to start getting some reps in before going out into the real world to explore legacy. The only difference is I'm running 4x Vexing Devil instead of 4x Eidolon of the Great Revel. I have to say, there has been quite a bit of back-and-forth with discussion of Vexing Devil, and I can now see why. When I first saw this, I thought it was quite good. Logic: 4 damage for R, or trades for a card in nearly every situation, which seems efficient. But, overall, it has simply been unimpressive. Yes, it does get the opponent down to 15 after turn 1 is over (above average chance of opponent fetching turn 1), but that's just it. Or, they let it resolve and just bolt it. I'm starting to see that the impact of powerful legacy cards needs to be a bit more, and I do love playing Goblin Guide over Vexing Devil. This isn't revolutionary news, I know, but as a returning player to the format with about a dozen reps in with this list, I wanted to share my insight.
I would never suggest swamping out vexing devil for Eidolon. I would swamp out Swiftspear for Vexing Devil; because Swiftspear and Eidolon don't work well together.
If you don't want to play Eidolon then why not play Lotus Pedal instead. Lotus Pedal can make Swiftspear more explosive.
I would never suggest swamping out vexing devil for Eidolon. I would swamp out Swiftspear for Vexing Devil; because Swiftspear and Eidolon don't work well together.
If you don't want to play Eidolon then why not play Lotus Pedal instead. Lotus Pedal can make Swiftspear more explosive.
Or just don't run Vexing Devil at all. The card isn't even good enough for Modern Burn.
The Lotus Petal plan doesn't feel powerful enough. Best possible thing is getting Eidolon T1 vs Storm. That's pretty narrow. Otherwise we get to play a Bolt a turn quicker but are a card down for the privilege.
I would never suggest swamping out vexing devil for Eidolon. I would swamp out Swiftspear for Vexing Devil; because Swiftspear and Eidolon don't work well together.
If you don't want to play Eidolon then why not play Lotus Pedal instead. Lotus Pedal can make Swiftspear more explosive.
Or just don't run Vexing Devil at all. The card isn't even good enough for Modern Burn.
The Lotus Petal plan doesn't feel powerful enough. Best possible thing is getting Eidolon T1 vs Storm. That's pretty narrow. Otherwise we get to play a Bolt a turn quicker but are a card down for the privilege.
lol... I guess you never played Swiftspear and Lotus Pedal.
I've been playing with Vexing Devil in legacy burn since the card was introduced and so far it never failed me. Which makes me question those 'logical statements' on Vexing Devil. I get the sense that players start out by looking at Browbeat and assume that Vexing Devil is the same card and when they play Vexing Devil on the first turn and it doesn't become a 4 damage bolt, then these players seemed to condemned the card. Or some player will say, "Well Vexing Devil is an unreliable as a creature too, when I play it as a creature the opponent sucks in the 4 damage and I'm out of a creature." This is the most insane statement ever since we are talking about 'burn' and if you really, really need a creature in play to block then you are bound to loose anyway... because Goblin Guide, Swiftspear, Eidolon and Grim Lavamancer would be chump blocks. What also don't make sense with that argument is how the player was willing to absorb 4 damage in the later game and you are still unable to hit them with more damage... sure they may have some defense up but that also means you are bound to lose even if you were going to play Goblin Guide instead.
I get the sense that players start out by looking at Browbeat and assume that Vexing Devil is the same card and when they play Vexing Devil on the first turn and it doesn't become a 4 damage bolt, then these players seemed to condemned the card. Or some player will say, "Well Vexing Devil is an unreliable as a creature too, when I play it as a creature the opponent sucks in the 4 damage and I'm out of a creature." This is the most insane statement ever since we are talking about 'burn' and if you really, really need a creature in play to block then you are bound to loose anyway... because Goblin Guide, Swiftspear, Eidolon and Grim Lavamancer would be chump blocks. What also don't make sense with that argument is how the player was willing to absorb 4 damage in the later game and you are still unable to hit them with more damage...
I don't recall anyone who's made these arguments convincingly, so you're just tearing down straw men. At best, you're addressing the weakest of possible opposition to Vexing Devil. I've got better:
Browbeat is now unplayable for being obsolete, but back in its heyday the problem with Browbeat wasn't either side of the equation. The problem was that you didn't get to choose. The same is true with Vexing Devil: either side is wonderful (even better than with Browbeat), but the fact that the opponent gets to choose weakens its viability (and in my view totally kills it).
The problems compound the later the game gets. First let's look at turn 1:
A non-hasty 4/3 is only decent in the context of burn because it doesn't guarantee damage.
A 4-damage sorcery for R is great, but something you'll only see in a deck that hopes to lock you out soon (e.g. someone who will quickly play a couple Chalices may choose to "take 4 once" instead of facing a recurring threat).
What about late game?
A non-hasty 4/3 is honestly pretty bad in the late-game when you need to finish the game right now before you completely lose steam. Most decks are well-equipped to handle 4/3s or larger (Gurmag Anglers and Tarmogoyfs) in the mid to late games.
A 4-damage sorcery for R is still great, but that's why it will never happen against most decks.
Whenever you look at specific situations, it's easy to get mired in the details. Looking at the bigger picture, Devil always manifests itself as the weakest option, and that is its biggest problem.
sure they may have some defense up but that also means you are bound to lose even if you were going to play Goblin Guide instead.
The difference with Devil is they have a turn to set up. Guide and Swiftspear can sneak in when an opponent's creatures are tapped out. Lavamancer and Eidolon can do damage outside of combat. But with Devil, the opponent has a turn to hold back a blocker or cast more creatures. When compared to Guide and Swiftspear, they have another draw step to grab removal or disruption.
Lastly, people say "dies to removal" isn't a valid argument against a card. I agree it's weak by itself, but it's a critical part of evaluating cards. You can bet that resistance to 1-shot removal like Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay are reasons that Monastery Mentor, Angler, and Young Pyromancer are used. On the other hand, Devil dies to everything, which makes it worse when the opponent can choose whether they have to deal with it.
Ultimately though, if Devil works for you, you should definitely run it. I'm perplexed that among seasoned Burn players it seems to work for only you and wonder if it's a case of confirmation bias. Its templating is so far against my playstyle that I won't run it, but it would be silly for me to advise you to get rid of something that wins you more games than it loses. So by all means we can debate its merits, but we're likely both on the paths that we'll continue to take.
I'm perplexed that among seasoned Burn players it seems to work for only you and wonder if it's a case of confirmation bias. Its templating is so far against my playstyle that I won't run it, but it would be silly for me to advise you to get rid of something that wins you more games than it loses. So by all means we can debate its merits, but we're likely both on the paths that we'll continue to take.
I'm perplexed that you forgotten Daniel Schenz burn deck of last year! No I shouldn't be perplexed by this - nobody wants to believe it can happen.
And how many top 8 burn decks play Swiftspear? 30%? 15%? You got 1 deck for Vexing Devil. I'm not gonna say it's bad, but it's not optimal. Sure Monastery Swiftspear might not be either, but it gets a lot better results. Play whatever you want, but truth be told when I went looking at top 8 results you know what most Burn decks played? Neither. They crammed in Searing Blaze and more face burn and kept their creatures limited to Eidolon, Lavamancer, and Guide.
I'm pretty sure I heard a rumor that an Esper Dragons Standard list went 4-0 in a Legacy daily on MTGO sometime last year. Variance is a thing. One result doesn't mean much of anything.
Regarding eleven_pillars.dec, I should have remembered it, so thanks for bringing that up. I'd say the deck did well because it ran so many pillar effects in that meta, and not necessarily because of Devil. The second and third most popular archetypes at that event were Elf combo and Storm combo, so those Devils could have been Grey Ogres and he would have likely seen some success. I was intrigued by that build just as many of us were, but I'm also much less intrigued because it didn't seem to attain any lasting or repeated success.
Anyway, I hope we can agree here that the point is not to play "gotcha" with one-of results. Hopefully it's clear that the trend with successful Burn decks is that they don't play Devil. I'd be happy to see compelling evidence to the contrary.
Hey guys. So my LGS had a tournament and first place was a revised dual land. This was my first tournament in over three years and the only deck I had after selling off all my dual lands and everything. I ran the following list.
I had no idea what the meta was but I felt this is the most streamlined.
Round 1 - Elves (0-1)
0-2
Game 1 - I missed played the end of this game bad. He 5 life left and I was at 2. He had Deathrite Shaman with no creatures or spells in the yards so I stupidly slam 2 Fireblasts at the same time. He lets the first resolve and eats it.
Game 2 - I am on the play. He mulled to 5 so I figured I could suspend my Rift Bolts turn 2. He was able to get 15 dudes on the field, finding the hoof to kick my teeth in... I had both a Pyrostatic Pillar and an Eidolon of the Great Revel in my hand. I think it may have been those "first" tournament jitters.
How do we fight elves? Do we kill off their sources? Race them? How do you guys combat them?
Round 2 - 12 Post (1-1)
2-1
Game 1 - I won the roll and burnt him out before anything really happened.
Game 2 - I got him down to 2 and tried to bolt him, but he triple crop rotated in response for 2 Glimmer Posts and a Vesuva, gaining 15. I was hellbent and he got Primeval Titan, gaining more life.
Game 3 - He, again gained a ton of life with Glimmer Post's affect but this caused him to have 12 nonbasic lands, allowing my 2 Price of Progresses to win me the game.
Round 3 - Lands (2-1)
2-1
Game 1 - I won the roll, winning right in the cross hairs of a Marit Lage.
Game 2 - Turn 3 Marit Lage, turn 4 dead...
Game 3 - Same as one... Is lands really this consistent?
Round 4 - Lands (3-1)
2-0
This round was completely different. First, this was against my buddy who I have never defeated in a tournament. I got him into magic and then I took my hiatus and sold almost everything.
Game 1 - He played 5 lands and... game 2.
Game 2 - He go a turn 2 Chalice of Void which I hit with a turn 2 Smash to Smithereens. He gambled twice and I rolled for those exact cards. He then drew and congratulated me on my first win against him. Lands is not as consistent as I thought.
Cut to Top 4
So I made it 3-1, 4th seed. I was having so much fun and the deck was running great, minus round 1. It was just like the old times.
Semi-Finals - Miracles 2-0
Game 1 - He never found Counter Balance. All my spells hit mostly uncontested.
Game 2 - Exquisite Firecraft is amazing. With how slow the matchup, I understand why its is at least a 3 of. He was at 3 with the lock. I waited 2 turns until I had a 2 bolt effects. I fired off a Lava Spike to test the waters. He topped, and tapped it, allowing me to respond with Lightning Bolt for game.
Finals - Death and Taxes 2-1
Game 1 - He hit a turn 3 Batterskull. I see where my hand sucked. I could not keep up with the 4 life a turn.
Game 2 - He got a turn 2 Thalia but Grim Lavamancer helped keep her off the board. This allowed me to burn him out quicker.
Game 3 - I got 3 Goblin Guides out and burnt his board out of the way. After 4 turns, I won the Underground Sea.
I honestly did not go in there expecting to win or anything. But I do have some questions.
First, how do we beat Elves? Are they just a combo deck we need to out run? Hope they do not have a nuts draw? And would Grafdigger's Cage be appropriate to bring in?
Second, Grafdigger's Cage, what are better options? What suggestions would you have to optimize the sideboard?
And lastly, I have read the past 10 or so pages and I have seen the numbers, but, not based on numbers, how has everyone's experiences been with Monastery Swift? It seems like you are more go go go but I play very... control like? I like to hold back depending on what is going on, what spells I have, but with her on the field, it seems like you need to unload all the time, every turn.
Let me know what you guys think and what you have experienced.
I approach elves as a slightly slower combo deck that we can interact with, I'd bring in more pillar effects to stop them from comboing, and unlike bridge/or cage that just stalls them until they find an answer pillar adds towards your clock, even if they find rec. sage to blow it up they are still taking two. Out side of that they are the agro in that match up so as long as you can trade 1-1 they shouldn't be able to snowball and you should come out on top. I also run forked bolt in my list, which is amazing against them.
Swift spear is a great card, but its meta dependent, Burn has the ability to switch from a slow combo deck, to a bad control deck, and this versatility is what makes burn good, as well as hard to master. Swift spear makes burn a little faster as a combo deck, she adds 1 damage per non creature spell I cast, so if I'm walking into a meta with lots of combo I'd pack her in my list for the extra umph. However she is very counter intuitive to the control plan, since you want to hold cards to react to your opponent. Currently she is cut from my list, since my meta is full of fair decks, I'd rather have forked bolt.
Also Curby, yours is probably the most well written post I've read on the vexing devil debate. Thank you for that.
Mardu Burn
Monogreen Stompy
Legacy
Burn
Pauper
Dimir Flicker
Monowhite Tokens
I don't get to play Legacy a heap due to where I live, but on business travel I sometimes get some games. With that setup I'm something like 14-1 at Tuesday night magic (~30 players with Tier 1 decks). That was 2x 5-0 and 1x 4-1. Also played a 8 round Legacy side event at a GP and went 5-3, with a couple losses coming from combo decks (lost T1 twice in one match and went 2-1 vs Solitary Confinement.dec). Can't remember mana issues being a defining factor in any of the losses.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
1) what's replacing REB? I'm hearing that it's exquisite fire craft - but I'm still not entirely sold on the reasons.
2) I was used to seeing powder kegs and pitching needles in the sideboard, are they both gone?
3) what's the verdict on swift spears?
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
2) I don't remember Powder Keg ever being a thing for Burn, at least not any time in the last few years. Pithing Needle gets play still in sideboards. It's about as common as most sideboard cards really (i.e. sporadic).
3) Lately results have heavily favoured having Swiftspear. I think it's somewhat Metaspecific, but until there is a major shake up this is likely the better build.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Powder keg was mostly used before Ratchet Bomb as a tool against dredge and Empty the Warren versions of storm combo. I suppose the question could be better worded as "is this still considered better than ensnaring bridge?"
Thanks!
Whether it's a comedy or a tragedy, if there is cheering, the story will continue on.
Just like the many lives.
For the us who are still in it and still in the journey, send warm blessings.
- We will continue to walk down this path until eternity.
Concerning keg or bomb. What I mean is neither see play in Burn (at least in the past few years). Tendrils tends to be the main kill for Storm, so I suppose there is that. Otherwise keg/bomb are super narrow. I wouldn't even side in Ensnaring Bridge vs Storm. Bridge is more to combat the "cheat in a fatty" combo decks.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Otherwise, it's pretty cheap to build if you already have Guides, Eidolons, and Fetches. You'll need to pickup some Chain Lightning, Fireblast, and Price of Progress and then the main is more or less built. Main thing is to pickup sideboard cards, but most are inexpensive.
Check back a page or two for lists. Most are the same within a few cards (at least main).Actually, there is a lot of weird brews in the thread recently. Here is a somewhat recent top 16 list from a GP:
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
4 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Grim Lavamancer
Sorcery (12)
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
Instant (13)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fireblast
1 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
2 Sulfuric Vortex
Land (19)
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Arid Mesa
11 Mountain
2 Searing Blaze
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Exquisite Firecraft
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Pyroblast
1 Electrickery
1 Red Elemental Blast
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
The most expensive burn spells you need is Chain Lightning. They sometimes go between 15 to 20 dollars. Depends on where you shop. Next is Price of Progress, they are usually running 5 dollars each (but you can get away with 3 in a deck). Next is fireblast (most important burn spell and the cheapest) they are 75 cents to 1 dollars, not often more.
I don't think burn is as bad as most assume. I do think players are pushing the wrong cards. Eidolon and Swiftspear don't work well together. And because combo and 1cc spells are mostly played in legacy - it would be best to put Eidolon in play ASAP! But players see how explosive Swiftspear can be and are often delaying the Eidolon drop or absorbing a 4 damage hit for a Swiftspear attack. I do think Eidolon is more for a slower/control burn build.
I love Vexing Devil as an alternative to Swiftspear. Though players seemed to judge the Devil to Browbeat. I personally believe that players are overlooking the real reason why browbeat sucks (you are skipping turn 3 to draw 3 cards) while the devil can be played on turn 1. There was a 'burn deck' that used Vexing Devil in a tournament a few months ago (or early spring) that did very well. Sorry, I'm not sure how to find that deck but I know it's been posted on this thread. Maybe others can find it.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
awesome! that seems like a pretty easy transition! thanks
I don't need very competetive, but I would like to have a fighting chance at my lgs....is Burn at least that good?
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
On the money. I went to a team tournament my LGS had last month and played in the Legacy portion. I went 1-3 due to an unfavorable meta, since I lost to Death and Taxes, dredge, and storm, but won against shardless BUG. Most of the time though, I find that the topdecks are wild since we don't have brainstorm, and I feel like I lose more to variance than anything else. I lost the DNT and dredge matchups due to not drawing any sideboarded cards, and I lost against storm because I had to mull to 4 game 1, and I failed to draw my 1cmc burn late game for game 3. Overall the meta was pretty bad for burn because there were plenty of combo decks and an RIP/Helm deck that ended up winning.
In short, I feel like this deck's main weakness is that it doesn't and it can't run brainstorm. It loses to its own variance, despite it having the best topdecks in the format. I felt like every matchup could have been winnable had my deck not decided to just screw me over with poor topdecks.
I decided to finish out this list on MTGO to start getting some reps in before going out into the real world to explore legacy. The only difference is I'm running 4x Vexing Devil instead of 4x Eidolon of the Great Revel. I have to say, there has been quite a bit of back-and-forth with discussion of Vexing Devil, and I can now see why. When I first saw this, I thought it was quite good. Logic: 4 damage for R, or trades for a card in nearly every situation, which seems efficient. But, overall, it has simply been unimpressive. Yes, it does get the opponent down to 15 after turn 1 is over (above average chance of opponent fetching turn 1), but that's just it. Or, they let it resolve and just bolt it. I'm starting to see that the impact of powerful legacy cards needs to be a bit more, and I do love playing Goblin Guide over Vexing Devil. This isn't revolutionary news, I know, but as a returning player to the format with about a dozen reps in with this list, I wanted to share my insight.
I would never suggest swamping out vexing devil for Eidolon. I would swamp out Swiftspear for Vexing Devil; because Swiftspear and Eidolon don't work well together.
If you don't want to play Eidolon then why not play Lotus Pedal instead. Lotus Pedal can make Swiftspear more explosive.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Or just don't run Vexing Devil at all. The card isn't even good enough for Modern Burn.
The Lotus Petal plan doesn't feel powerful enough. Best possible thing is getting Eidolon T1 vs Storm. That's pretty narrow. Otherwise we get to play a Bolt a turn quicker but are a card down for the privilege.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
lol... I guess you never played Swiftspear and Lotus Pedal.
I've been playing with Vexing Devil in legacy burn since the card was introduced and so far it never failed me. Which makes me question those 'logical statements' on Vexing Devil. I get the sense that players start out by looking at Browbeat and assume that Vexing Devil is the same card and when they play Vexing Devil on the first turn and it doesn't become a 4 damage bolt, then these players seemed to condemned the card. Or some player will say, "Well Vexing Devil is an unreliable as a creature too, when I play it as a creature the opponent sucks in the 4 damage and I'm out of a creature." This is the most insane statement ever since we are talking about 'burn' and if you really, really need a creature in play to block then you are bound to loose anyway... because Goblin Guide, Swiftspear, Eidolon and Grim Lavamancer would be chump blocks. What also don't make sense with that argument is how the player was willing to absorb 4 damage in the later game and you are still unable to hit them with more damage... sure they may have some defense up but that also means you are bound to lose even if you were going to play Goblin Guide instead.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
I don't recall anyone who's made these arguments convincingly, so you're just tearing down straw men. At best, you're addressing the weakest of possible opposition to Vexing Devil. I've got better:
Browbeat is now unplayable for being obsolete, but back in its heyday the problem with Browbeat wasn't either side of the equation. The problem was that you didn't get to choose. The same is true with Vexing Devil: either side is wonderful (even better than with Browbeat), but the fact that the opponent gets to choose weakens its viability (and in my view totally kills it).
The problems compound the later the game gets. First let's look at turn 1:
The difference with Devil is they have a turn to set up. Guide and Swiftspear can sneak in when an opponent's creatures are tapped out. Lavamancer and Eidolon can do damage outside of combat. But with Devil, the opponent has a turn to hold back a blocker or cast more creatures. When compared to Guide and Swiftspear, they have another draw step to grab removal or disruption.
Lastly, people say "dies to removal" isn't a valid argument against a card. I agree it's weak by itself, but it's a critical part of evaluating cards. You can bet that resistance to 1-shot removal like Lightning Bolt and Abrupt Decay are reasons that Monastery Mentor, Angler, and Young Pyromancer are used. On the other hand, Devil dies to everything, which makes it worse when the opponent can choose whether they have to deal with it.
Ultimately though, if Devil works for you, you should definitely run it. I'm perplexed that among seasoned Burn players it seems to work for only you and wonder if it's a case of confirmation bias. Its templating is so far against my playstyle that I won't run it, but it would be silly for me to advise you to get rid of something that wins you more games than it loses. So by all means we can debate its merits, but we're likely both on the paths that we'll continue to take.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I'm perplexed that you forgotten Daniel Schenz burn deck of last year! No I shouldn't be perplexed by this - nobody wants to believe it can happen.
http://www.eternal-clash.com/event/19-09-2015/top-8-decklists/
2 Scab-Clan Berserker
4 Ash Zealot
4 Goblin Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Vexing Devil
Instants (9)
1 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Chain Lightning
Enchantments (11)
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Eidolon of the great Revel
4 Tahngarth’s Rage
Lands (18)
18 Mountain
2 Vexing Shusher
2 Meekstone
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Blood Knight
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Island of Wak-Wak
4 Smash to Smithereens
1 Shatterstorm
[Yeah I had to search for this deck myself]
The only bias that I see is how narrow most burn players are in their deck construction.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
Anyway, I hope we can agree here that the point is not to play "gotcha" with one-of results. Hopefully it's clear that the trend with successful Burn decks is that they don't play Devil. I'd be happy to see compelling evidence to the contrary.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
Sorceries(12)
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt
Instants(16)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Searing Blaze
4 Fireblast
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Sulfuric Vortex
Lands (19)
3 Arid Mesa
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Wooded Foothills
7 Mountain
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Searing Blood
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Exquisite Firecraft
I had no idea what the meta was but I felt this is the most streamlined.
Round 1 - Elves (0-1)
0-2
Game 1 - I missed played the end of this game bad. He 5 life left and I was at 2. He had Deathrite Shaman with no creatures or spells in the yards so I stupidly slam 2 Fireblasts at the same time. He lets the first resolve and eats it.
Game 2 - I am on the play. He mulled to 5 so I figured I could suspend my Rift Bolts turn 2. He was able to get 15 dudes on the field, finding the hoof to kick my teeth in... I had both a Pyrostatic Pillar and an Eidolon of the Great Revel in my hand. I think it may have been those "first" tournament jitters.
How do we fight elves? Do we kill off their sources? Race them? How do you guys combat them?
Round 2 - 12 Post (1-1)
2-1
Game 1 - I won the roll and burnt him out before anything really happened.
Game 2 - I got him down to 2 and tried to bolt him, but he triple crop rotated in response for 2 Glimmer Posts and a Vesuva, gaining 15. I was hellbent and he got Primeval Titan, gaining more life.
Game 3 - He, again gained a ton of life with Glimmer Post's affect but this caused him to have 12 nonbasic lands, allowing my 2 Price of Progresses to win me the game.
Round 3 - Lands (2-1)
2-1
Game 1 - I won the roll, winning right in the cross hairs of a Marit Lage.
Game 2 - Turn 3 Marit Lage, turn 4 dead...
Game 3 - Same as one... Is lands really this consistent?
Round 4 - Lands (3-1)
2-0
This round was completely different. First, this was against my buddy who I have never defeated in a tournament. I got him into magic and then I took my hiatus and sold almost everything.
Game 1 - He played 5 lands and... game 2.
Game 2 - He go a turn 2 Chalice of Void which I hit with a turn 2 Smash to Smithereens. He gambled twice and I rolled for those exact cards. He then drew and congratulated me on my first win against him. Lands is not as consistent as I thought.
Cut to Top 4
So I made it 3-1, 4th seed. I was having so much fun and the deck was running great, minus round 1. It was just like the old times.
Semi-Finals - Miracles 2-0
Game 1 - He never found Counter Balance. All my spells hit mostly uncontested.
Game 2 - Exquisite Firecraft is amazing. With how slow the matchup, I understand why its is at least a 3 of. He was at 3 with the lock. I waited 2 turns until I had a 2 bolt effects. I fired off a Lava Spike to test the waters. He topped, and tapped it, allowing me to respond with Lightning Bolt for game.
Finals - Death and Taxes 2-1
Game 1 - He hit a turn 3 Batterskull. I see where my hand sucked. I could not keep up with the 4 life a turn.
Game 2 - He got a turn 2 Thalia but Grim Lavamancer helped keep her off the board. This allowed me to burn him out quicker.
Game 3 - I got 3 Goblin Guides out and burnt his board out of the way. After 4 turns, I won the Underground Sea.
I honestly did not go in there expecting to win or anything. But I do have some questions.
First, how do we beat Elves? Are they just a combo deck we need to out run? Hope they do not have a nuts draw? And would Grafdigger's Cage be appropriate to bring in?
Second, Grafdigger's Cage, what are better options? What suggestions would you have to optimize the sideboard?
And lastly, I have read the past 10 or so pages and I have seen the numbers, but, not based on numbers, how has everyone's experiences been with Monastery Swift? It seems like you are more go go go but I play very... control like? I like to hold back depending on what is going on, what spells I have, but with her on the field, it seems like you need to unload all the time, every turn.
Let me know what you guys think and what you have experienced.
I approach elves as a slightly slower combo deck that we can interact with, I'd bring in more pillar effects to stop them from comboing, and unlike bridge/or cage that just stalls them until they find an answer pillar adds towards your clock, even if they find rec. sage to blow it up they are still taking two. Out side of that they are the agro in that match up so as long as you can trade 1-1 they shouldn't be able to snowball and you should come out on top. I also run forked bolt in my list, which is amazing against them.
Swift spear is a great card, but its meta dependent, Burn has the ability to switch from a slow combo deck, to a bad control deck, and this versatility is what makes burn good, as well as hard to master. Swift spear makes burn a little faster as a combo deck, she adds 1 damage per non creature spell I cast, so if I'm walking into a meta with lots of combo I'd pack her in my list for the extra umph. However she is very counter intuitive to the control plan, since you want to hold cards to react to your opponent. Currently she is cut from my list, since my meta is full of fair decks, I'd rather have forked bolt.
Also Curby, yours is probably the most well written post I've read on the vexing devil debate. Thank you for that.
RIP Karn EDH