Pyrostatic Pillar would do the trick anyway, if not better, since it gets them for 4 by the time they flashback anything. I think Pillar would be more relevant in general, rather than just hating graveyard.
Ash Zealot is very interesting vs GY decks. Really makes a PIF Storm deck work for it
Zealot has always been a strong option in the correct meta, it just has not been that meta for some time. In some match up it can be better than eidlion because of its haste and first strike, and its never a dead card like some, it is just an inefficient one sometimes. That being said 2 mana to do 6 damage on its own by turn 4 is nothing to sneeze at.
Since the Dig through Time ban, I've been trying to figure out how I want to customize my sideboard now. I've ended up deciding to cut the playset of Red Elemental Blast I was running, and I definitely want 3-4 Mindbreak Trap for storm matchups, but I'm not sure which card I'd use for grave hate right now. The last SCG IQ I was in I lost a match to lands and I felt like the biggest reason for that loss was because I didn't understand how the deck worked well enough to properly sideboard, and I failed to side in grave hate as a result. Between Reanimator and Lands I feel like I could actually put a playset worth of grave hate in my board if I only go for 3 Traps, or if I go for only 3 GY hate cards, I can side in a fourth Searing Blaze, although this seems less likely to be correct.
The board would probably end up looking like this:
I also can't decide what my hate card of choice should be. Right now I'm juggling between Tormod's Crypt, Faerie Macabre, and because another burn player suggested this card a while back (didn't have the room to run a playset of it at the time but now I do), Leyline of the Void.
Here's what I think the pros/cons are of each card. I won't put "free" as a pro because they're all free, and I will include specific matchups as pros/cons as well: Tormod's Crypt
Pros:
-full grave wipe
-best against Dredge
Cons:
-Can be countered
-Can be played around
Faerie Macabre
Pros:
-Instant speed
-Can't be countered with regular counterspells
-Can surprise your opponent
-Probably the best card against Reanimator and makes for a strong contender against Lands too.
Cons:
-Only exiles 2 cards per use
-Not too effective against dredge
-Can still be stifled/trickbinded although I doubt the decks this card is played against would ever play those cards. Maybe a reanimator player, but then again, they could be better served by bringing in Show and Tell instead.
Leyline of the Void
Pros:
-You can start the game with this on turn 0
-Can't be countered/stifled/whatever if started with on turn 0
-Effect is continuous
-Grave nuke
-can dodge discard due to turn 0 nature
-Effective against all matchups
Cons:
-It's a dead card if you draw it (this one's pretty serious and gets worse if you didn't get one in your opening hand)
-Must run an entire playset of this card in the board for it to be effective
The fact that it can be removed could be a con but at the same time, the other 2 cards are one-time uses so I can't really hold that against LoTV, especially when it can buy us upwards of 3-4 turns.
Even after weighing the pros and cons of each card, I still can't pick a clear winner here. Maybe you guys can help.
Ever since I've been playing with Eidolon I've been finding Mindbreak Trap less necessary. I've also believe red elemental blast should be a main sideboard card (actually, a main board card in major tournaments) as long as brainstorm is +60% of the meta game.
I like Faerie Macabre because it's uncounterable and it wrecks dredge!
Eidolon doesn't feel like it's enough to me. The odds of me drawing Eidolon by my turn 2 are already pretty low (assuming no mulligans, because if I have 2 lands and playable cards it's stupid to mulligan for a specific card, especially game 1 when you don't know what you're up against), and then there's the fact that even if I have Eidolon in hand Storm can just combo off and win before I have the chance to play it. It's happened to me pretty often, and not just with burn. I was on the play once with a Death and Taxes deck that had 2 lands, a Thalia, and an Ethersworn canonist in my opening hand, and the storm player still won because he combo'd off on turn 1. Back to burn, however, I don't want to have to rely on drawing one specific card in my deck to win a matchup, especially when that one card could possibly end up being too slow anyway.
With mindbreak trap, I now have 7 cards in my deck that can help me beat storm and I don't have to rely on just drawing Eidolon. That's the main reason I want to play with Trap. If they Duress or Cabal Therapy the trap out of my hand turn 1 that means the odds of a turn 1 or even turn 2 combo are slim to none (still can happen, but not likely if your opening grip isn't all relevant combo pieces), which hopefully buys me a turn or 2 to play Eidolon. The fact that it can stop turn 1/2 kills regardless of whether or not storm proactively answers it is just a bonus to me.
Edit: Faerie Macabre is actually the least effective card against dredge out of my 3 options but I'm still leaning towards it because it's better against reanimator. Not sure what card would be the best against lands.
Faerie Macabre is the best I think. The surprise factor the card presents can easily gain you more than a turn like some of the other options. I have beat dredge and reanimator both with Macabre because it made my opponent waste a reanimation spell or what have you. It is usually a 2-1 in those match ups plus a tempo swing. It has similar value against snapcaster.
Other pros the card provides is that it dodges turn 1 duress where crypt does not and is always "castable" where as Lotv is never castable and spheres can potentially be locked out by stax effects (though probably not relevant.)
I think another weakness of LotV that is being over looked is the decks you bring it in against still have answers in the form of one mana bounce spells such as chain of vapor.
Macabre has my vote for grave hate, burn has a great clock already, and Macabre makes them stumble enough to give us a chance.
Sideboarding for storm, your comment got me thinking. At the moment I'm running 3 pyrostatic pillars as storm hate, and I think I might change to three mindbreak traps. Its a roll of the dice against storm, they can discard pillar, just as they can discard mindbreak, but mindbreak can interact with them on turn zero where pillar can't, but pillar furthers your game plan of dealing damage, where mindbreak essentially durdle in the grand scheme of burn. I can't think of any match ups where either of these cards could supplement my sideboard either, so I think its just a matter of choice.
Honestly not sure because I see lands so infrequently even at big events I've never really had the chance to test burn against it. I would be shocked to find that deck making up a bigger portion of most any real meta than something like dredge or reanimator, and as such would much rather take the option that had higher proven utility against the more prominent deck.
I would have to imagine that the lands match up has so many one ofs that it would not be all that hard to nuke what you need to with the faerie.
I think another weakness of LotV that is being over looked is the decks you bring it in against still have answers in the form of one mana bounce spells such as chain of vapor.
Macabre has my vote for grave hate, burn has a great clock already, and Macabre makes them stumble enough to give us a chance.
Sideboarding for storm, your comment got me thinking. At the moment I'm running 3 pyrostatic pillars as storm hate, and I think I might change to three mindbreak traps. Its a roll of the dice against storm, they can discard pillar, just as they can discard mindbreak, but mindbreak can interact with them on turn zero where pillar can't, but pillar furthers your game plan of dealing damage, where mindbreak essentially durdle in the grand scheme of burn. I can't think of any match ups where either of these cards could supplement my sideboard either, so I think its just a matter of choice.
I didn't account for removal as a con for LoTV because Macabre and Crypt are both one-time uses while LoTV is a continuous effect. LoTV still will probably eat up a few turns if it gets removed while our opponent has to rebuild their graveyard.
Also, the most recent Reanimator lists (at least the ones I've seen poking around on SCG) have forgone Chain of Vapor in favor of Abrupt Decay, which can't remove LoTV. The 4th place Reanimator list from GP Seatac is also running Golgari Charm and Echoing Truth, but I don't think that a reanimator player can reasonably side those in against us until game 3, and even then, that's only 2 cards. The main con I have of LoTV is that you basically need it in your opening hand for it to work and drawing into it at any point in the game is bad.
I ask about the lands matchup because right now Lands is one of the top decks in the overall meta right now. At the last IQ I played at, I ended up ultimately losing to lands because I didn't fully understand how the deck worked and how much it relies on the graveyard to function. As a result I didn't side in any grave hate, and I feel that this cost me game 3 of the match when my opponent sac'd his entire land base to Zuran Orb only to Loam his manabase back over the next 2-3 turns.
If you are really have issues with lands I would think a proactive response would be a better one. Ankh of Mishra could be a good side, just because it is better in multiple and not a dead card outside of the opening hand. Since lands does not rely on casting so many spells you could probably side out ediolon for them. Your sulfuric vortexes should be a priority play against lands too if you suspect zuran orb will hit.
Personally I imagine if I am going to see a lands deck in a big event, chances are I am also going to run into reanimator as well, in which case I would far rather have the Faerie in my list than not. How many events are you playing in where lands is the match up you are hitting at an amount equal to or greater than dredge and reanimator?
I'm surprised that no one is talking about Surgical Extraction. It's free, relevant in several matchups (i.e. lands, dredge, reanimator, storm...), and diversifies our hate. Storm leans on cabal therapy a lot, having a two different effective forms of hate. For reference, this is my board:
Surgical Extraction is all but strictly worse than Faerie against reanimator. Besides costing 2 life, which I realize is not all that relevant, it is counter-able and typically your target is only a one of in a list. With Faerie you can zap 2 targets if they exist in the yard which is relevant against non targeted reanimation like exhume
Against Lands, you can exile Life from the Loam and they typically can't do anything to stop that. Not many lists play blue and Brainstorm nowadays.
Against Dredge, you can exile Bridges in response to triggers and Dredgers in response to a draw effect or during their upkeep.
Against Reanimator, you can exile whatever creature they Entomb EoT during your endstep.
I'll try out a playset of Macabre in my board then. Lands does have tricks against burn (juggling Glacial Chasm with Thespian's stage), but I think I could have still won the match had I sideboarded in grave hate.
I think another weakness of LotV that is being over looked is the decks you bring it in against still have answers in the form of one mana bounce spells such as chain of vapor.
Macabre has my vote for grave hate, burn has a great clock already, and Macabre makes them stumble enough to give us a chance.
For the record, this weakness was not overlooked. I was the proponent of the card, and came to advocate it on the basis of a detailed database search of top 32 finishing Reanimator and Dredge decks. The analysis at the time indicated that a remarkably low percentage of those decks were playing Chain of Vapor, Nature's Claim, and other things that could kill the Leyline. The card was recommended on the basis of this fact, in addition to its general strength in other matchups such as Lands.
It was a long time ago that the analysis was made, however, and there may have been errors of one kind of another in its execution. I suggest anyone considering the question of gravehate to consider their own metagame, as well as the databases available, to come to an informed decision. Myself, I'm playing Reanimator, with no answer to Leyline either.
I'll try out a playset of Macabre in my board then. Lands does have tricks against burn (juggling Glacial Chasm with Thespian's stage), but I think I could have still won the match had I sideboarded in grave hate.
As a lands player I have to say I think macabre will work just fine against the deck, given of course that you wait until the right time to play it
Since I'm not familiar with the matchup, I'm guessing the best time(s) would be either in response to a Loam or in response to the Loam's dredge trigger, right?
Not a bad time, want to make sure you hit the chasm though, loam can be replaced but there is only one chasm. This was the only match up I got to play for a while and it was a race to kill me before I found chasm. One other thought on the match is that they need to let the chasm go to kill you, if you can kill them at instant speed then, there isn't much they can do. PoP and the other instants can be saved for that
For killing lots of different X/1's. Particularly TNN and YP Tokens, but it can be useful in other matchups too.
Modern: R Skred -- WBG Melira Co -- URW Nahiri Control
Legacy: R Mono Red Burn -- UWB Stoneblade
Commander: R Krenko, Mob Boss -- WUBRG Scion of the Ur-Dragon -- WUBRG Maze’s End
Other: R No Rares Red (Standard) -- URC Izzet Tron (Pauper)
Zealot has always been a strong option in the correct meta, it just has not been that meta for some time. In some match up it can be better than eidlion because of its haste and first strike, and its never a dead card like some, it is just an inefficient one sometimes. That being said 2 mana to do 6 damage on its own by turn 4 is nothing to sneeze at.
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The board would probably end up looking like this:
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Vexing Shusher
4 Grave Hate
or maybe like this (like I said, less likely to be correct)
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Smash to Smithereens
3 Vexing shusher
3 Grave Hate
I also can't decide what my hate card of choice should be. Right now I'm juggling between Tormod's Crypt, Faerie Macabre, and because another burn player suggested this card a while back (didn't have the room to run a playset of it at the time but now I do), Leyline of the Void.
Here's what I think the pros/cons are of each card. I won't put "free" as a pro because they're all free, and I will include specific matchups as pros/cons as well:
Tormod's Crypt
Pros:
-full grave wipe
-best against Dredge
Cons:
-Can be countered
-Can be played around
Faerie Macabre
Pros:
-Instant speed
-Can't be countered with regular counterspells
-Can surprise your opponent
-Probably the best card against Reanimator and makes for a strong contender against Lands too.
Cons:
-Only exiles 2 cards per use
-Not too effective against dredge
-Can still be stifled/trickbinded although I doubt the decks this card is played against would ever play those cards. Maybe a reanimator player, but then again, they could be better served by bringing in Show and Tell instead.
Leyline of the Void
Pros:
-You can start the game with this on turn 0
-Can't be countered/stifled/whatever if started with on turn 0
-Effect is continuous
-Grave nuke
-can dodge discard due to turn 0 nature
-Effective against all matchups
Cons:
-It's a dead card if you draw it (this one's pretty serious and gets worse if you didn't get one in your opening hand)
-Must run an entire playset of this card in the board for it to be effective
The fact that it can be removed could be a con but at the same time, the other 2 cards are one-time uses so I can't really hold that against LoTV, especially when it can buy us upwards of 3-4 turns.
Even after weighing the pros and cons of each card, I still can't pick a clear winner here. Maybe you guys can help.
I like Faerie Macabre because it's uncounterable and it wrecks dredge!
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
With mindbreak trap, I now have 7 cards in my deck that can help me beat storm and I don't have to rely on just drawing Eidolon. That's the main reason I want to play with Trap. If they Duress or Cabal Therapy the trap out of my hand turn 1 that means the odds of a turn 1 or even turn 2 combo are slim to none (still can happen, but not likely if your opening grip isn't all relevant combo pieces), which hopefully buys me a turn or 2 to play Eidolon. The fact that it can stop turn 1/2 kills regardless of whether or not storm proactively answers it is just a bonus to me.
Edit: Faerie Macabre is actually the least effective card against dredge out of my 3 options but I'm still leaning towards it because it's better against reanimator. Not sure what card would be the best against lands.
Other pros the card provides is that it dodges turn 1 duress where crypt does not and is always "castable" where as Lotv is never castable and spheres can potentially be locked out by stax effects (though probably not relevant.)
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Macabre has my vote for grave hate, burn has a great clock already, and Macabre makes them stumble enough to give us a chance.
Sideboarding for storm, your comment got me thinking. At the moment I'm running 3 pyrostatic pillars as storm hate, and I think I might change to three mindbreak traps. Its a roll of the dice against storm, they can discard pillar, just as they can discard mindbreak, but mindbreak can interact with them on turn zero where pillar can't, but pillar furthers your game plan of dealing damage, where mindbreak essentially durdle in the grand scheme of burn. I can't think of any match ups where either of these cards could supplement my sideboard either, so I think its just a matter of choice.
RIP Karn EDH
Honestly not sure because I see lands so infrequently even at big events I've never really had the chance to test burn against it. I would be shocked to find that deck making up a bigger portion of most any real meta than something like dredge or reanimator, and as such would much rather take the option that had higher proven utility against the more prominent deck.
I would have to imagine that the lands match up has so many one ofs that it would not be all that hard to nuke what you need to with the faerie.
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I didn't account for removal as a con for LoTV because Macabre and Crypt are both one-time uses while LoTV is a continuous effect. LoTV still will probably eat up a few turns if it gets removed while our opponent has to rebuild their graveyard.
Also, the most recent Reanimator lists (at least the ones I've seen poking around on SCG) have forgone Chain of Vapor in favor of Abrupt Decay, which can't remove LoTV. The 4th place Reanimator list from GP Seatac is also running Golgari Charm and Echoing Truth, but I don't think that a reanimator player can reasonably side those in against us until game 3, and even then, that's only 2 cards. The main con I have of LoTV is that you basically need it in your opening hand for it to work and drawing into it at any point in the game is bad.
I ask about the lands matchup because right now Lands is one of the top decks in the overall meta right now. At the last IQ I played at, I ended up ultimately losing to lands because I didn't fully understand how the deck worked and how much it relies on the graveyard to function. As a result I didn't side in any grave hate, and I feel that this cost me game 3 of the match when my opponent sac'd his entire land base to Zuran Orb only to Loam his manabase back over the next 2-3 turns.
Personally I imagine if I am going to see a lands deck in a big event, chances are I am also going to run into reanimator as well, in which case I would far rather have the Faerie in my list than not. How many events are you playing in where lands is the match up you are hitting at an amount equal to or greater than dredge and reanimator?
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Against Lands, you can exile Life from the Loam and they typically can't do anything to stop that. Not many lists play blue and Brainstorm nowadays.
Against Dredge, you can exile Bridges in response to triggers and Dredgers in response to a draw effect or during their upkeep.
Against Reanimator, you can exile whatever creature they Entomb EoT during your endstep.
For the record, this weakness was not overlooked. I was the proponent of the card, and came to advocate it on the basis of a detailed database search of top 32 finishing Reanimator and Dredge decks. The analysis at the time indicated that a remarkably low percentage of those decks were playing Chain of Vapor, Nature's Claim, and other things that could kill the Leyline. The card was recommended on the basis of this fact, in addition to its general strength in other matchups such as Lands.
It was a long time ago that the analysis was made, however, and there may have been errors of one kind of another in its execution. I suggest anyone considering the question of gravehate to consider their own metagame, as well as the databases available, to come to an informed decision. Myself, I'm playing Reanimator, with no answer to Leyline either.
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
As a lands player I have to say I think macabre will work just fine against the deck, given of course that you wait until the right time to play it
Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
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Modern: WURG Twin
Standard: Mardu Planeswalkers
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/standard-type-2/deck-creation-standard/661834-mardu-planeswalker?comment=1
Monthly Proxy Legacy
Charlotte/Greensboro area, NC
Pm me for details
4 Bloodstained Mire
12 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
14 Creatures
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
26 Spells
4 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB
3 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Searing Blaze
3 Smash to Smithereens
4 Bloodstained Mire
12 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
14 Creatures
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
26 Spells
4 Chain Lightning
3 Fireblast
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
4 Rift Bolt
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sulfuric Vortex
SB
3 Exquisite Firecraft
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Searing Blaze
3 Smash to Smithereens