Seems solid. Getting the lands out of the way would benefit you the most in the long run. Also, of note is that all of these cards tend to have a period of time during the year when they're cheaper, then they start going up some. Then back down. Know when to buy/trade for them can help you. Generally speaking, during tax season/quarter 1 and 2 of the year, they seem to be the most expensive. Around the end of summer and nearer to the fall (but not necessarily winter) they're a little cheaper. But don't follow this formula strictly; duals tend to rise over time. Doesn't seem to stop really. They seem to experience the least amount of fall out of the three we're discussing. Compare this to FoW and Wasteland where their prices seem to fluctuate a little more often; right now, FoW is like, $100 on TCGPlayer mid. FoW could have been had for ~$60-70 near mint about a year ago. And before that it was about $80-90. And before that it was $50 or so. Same thing about Wastelands; earlier around this time last year, I was trading for a Wasteland at $100-110. But before the boom, they were at $50. They're now sitting at $75. To be fair, this was partly because of Treasure Cruise and U/R Delver; the meta shifted and Wastelands weren't as great. This led to it being less desired and the values deflated. I'd argue that it's been deflating since last year, but I can't deny that the Treasure Cruise meta definitely had an impact.
TL;DR: Overall gradual rise over time; however, the prices do tend to ebb and flow. Key is just to get them whenever you see them at a price that works for you -- be it trade or buy. Still go for duals if given the option though because of Reserved List.
I can't quite say what to do about a budget build; it's really hard to emulate FoW and Wastelands. But I suppose what you suggested could work. They're pretty powerful cards in and of itself. I don't think Foil would work at all; BUG Delver is a pretty land light deck, but go ahead and try it if you're curious. It'll give you something to do while you're building up to those cards. Disrupting Shoal does a better FoW imitation than Foil, but that's not saying much. If I HAD to play a replacement, I'd go with Shoal. I wouldn't do either though and just run either more threats or better value cards. More counters or Liliana of the Veil or Hymn to Tourach or Sylvan Library.
Reprints the one card that people point to when saying that art objectifies women.
Well done Wizards.
Liliana does not objectify women in any way at all. We have gotten to a point in our society that every single picture of a women must be objectifying a women in some negative way......blah blah blah.. That is not the case. (((Sarcasm)))Picture of a girl drinking a milk shake, must be sex related and putting women down, picture of girl sitting on a beach, picture of a girl driving a car, picture of a girl on the moon at a new space station.)))
You have a picture of an attractive strong power women who girls dress up as for anime conventions. What more do you want? The picture is fine, happy to see a reprint. Sick of of seeing people claim that everything in existence must be putting women down. Then all I have to do is replace the word "women" with anything else to get the same mentality; fish, cats, arabs, blacks, jews, men, environment, whites, chinese, old people, etc. It doesn't matter what word I put in. Stop sucking life out of everything man. That artwork of her is awesome. Stop putting stuff down man. Just stop. If the picture was really as negative as you claim she would totally nude, in a kitchen, making sandwiches and giving blow jobs. Her abilities would be horrible as well. +1 do nothing -2 do nothing -6 do nothing. Instead liliana of the veil is an amazing planeswalker comparable to jace, the mind sculpter with great art to appreciate.
My suggestion listen to some comedy radio for a while, pandora is free, youtube is free there is something out there for you. ***** go make fun of somebody. The whole world is so serious and campaigning for some cause, or someones rights, everything is a hate crime, racist, sexist. blah blah blah.
"O no mcdonalds must be slandering a hate crime against skinny people every time they make a big mac." hahaha jeeze You're just someone perpetuating another groups negative perspective that they've made you believe is correct. Look at the picture for a hour and tell me what's wrong with it? I don't see anything.
I have heard vague rumors of a moustache-dispensing vending machine in a distant laundromat, across the street from a tattoo parlor. However, this information is shaky, and time is of the essence.
Question about gameplay and Stifle. This card is choking me up. I really love it as you are basically 100% to beat ANT with it. But the problem I have is vs other Delver decks.
How do YOU play it? Really. I need help. Do I run out my Delver always first turn or try to catch the 50/50 fetch?
Assume you have Stifle in hand, a fetchland, a normal dual (and other random cards).
vs
Stifle, fetch, dual, delver, 3 others.
With Dig being banned, this helps our position in the meta right? Hymnn doesn't look so bad anymore, and we were already pretty solid if you were on a build without dig.
With Dig being banned, this helps our position in the meta right? Hymnn doesn't look so bad anymore, and we were already pretty solid if you were on a build without dig.
So I have a similar question to the guy asking about budget builds. I do happen to have Forces and two Wastelands though. No duals or goyfs though. What can I get away with playing? I guess duals would be priority due to the reserved list, then on to goyfs? Not really sure what to run in the meantime though. I'm not shy, I'll run shocks while I save for duals
Why is it called Canadian threshold and team america
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Temur Delver was originally called Canadian Threshhold because the people who popularized it were Canadian, I believe.
The opposite is true for Sultai Delver. It was given this name ironically because all of the key cards were thought to be overlooked in the American Legacy meta.
These days, some wizards are finding they have a little too much deck left at the end of their $$$.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Temur Delver was originally called Canadian Threshhold because the people who popularized it were Canadian, I believe.
The opposite is true for Sultai Delver. It was given this name ironically because all of the key cards were thought to be overlooked in the American Legacy meta.
Canadian was the Red splash in the original UG Threshold deck. I do believe that it was popularized by Dave Caplan and the choices that deck made are pretty much the same choices made now-a-days (Wastelands, Stifles, Red splash for Bolts).
That's pretty close to correct for Team America, as I'll show.
Pretty sure team America was because the deck team USA took
Nope, that is not correct at all.
The history behind the creation of this deck is quite interesting, as it sort of started out as a joke deck of Dave Gearhart's, referred to as "Europe". It was blue and black only, played confidants and stalkers as the only creatures, combined with the same LD package as Team America. Also, it played 4 maindeck extirpates and no removal. To say the least it was pretty bad (although pretty fun to play). The name was a reference to the vast differences between European and American legacy meta games, and was a homage to alot of cards that rarely see play in America.
As time went on, Dave and I started changing the deck around, at one point playing dreadnoughts in the main and also adding snuff outs. Eventually tarmogoyfs were added and the deck started looking strong. So, we started testing it and preparing the sideboard and maindeck for the Source tournament. Dave of course was locked in to playing It's The Fear, but me and Eric G. (Bourgeoise) decided to give Team America a shot. Eric had some rotten luck in the swiss (pun intended), but I went X - 0 and wound up finishing in the top 4.
The idea behind Team America was essentially to merge the successful elements of tempo based threshold and suicide black. A proactive disruption suite, and a total of 12 "free" spells (force of will, daze, snuff out), allows this deck to be a tempo-generating machine. The 8 threats it plays must all be answered quickly, as they end the game in short order, and the cantrip base of 4 ponder/4 brainstorm smooth out the deck's consistency; something where traditional suicide strategies tend to fall short.
While Team America does not run as many threats as a deck like Eva Green, and lacks the explosiveness of dark ritual, it gains powerful cards like force of will and daze, along with a cantrip engine. It is not quite as consistent as threshold lists running top but you unfortunately make that sacrifice to be more proactive.
I (as well as Dave) will probably be able to go more in depth with some of the card choices as questions are asked, but the list really is quite tight and well tested. The only real controversy right now is the argument of hymn to tourach over sinkhole. Both cards brutally attack an opponent's resources in different ways, but when it comes down to it it really is a metagame consideration. With more blue based aggro control, hymn is probably going to be stronger. If more multicolored control decks show up, as well as survival, sinkhole is going to probably be a better choice.
I will say this: I ran into threshold type decks a few times in the swiss and still was able to pull out victories, while drawing and playing sinkholes. It is too early to tell which is better, but that's where the development of the deck is currently.
At any rate, please discuss. I hope you guys like the deck as Dave and I (as well as the rest of the NoVA legacy players) put a lot of work into testing it.
P.S. Tombstalker is a very underplayed, amazing threat.
So, yes, the name is a joke, a play on words that reference it's a-typical choices for an "American-made" deck and the American meta-game, a la Team America: World Police.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
Even after really good results this page still has zero activity, I'm a little surprised. I just went 3-0 at my lgs with my bug delver list.
2-0 shardless bug
2-1 DeathBlade
2-1 High Tide
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
“I am confident that if anyone actually penetrates our facades, even the most perceptive would still be fundamentally unprepared for the truth of House Dimir.”
It seems like the best Delver deck right now is Grixis Pyromancer, so that's probably why there isn't much discussion here (although I don't know that there is much discussion in that thread either). I'd be happy to talk about strategy or deck choices for BUG Delver, though.
Nice results! Are you doing anything unique with your list?
So, I've been considering doing a Delver Build for Legacy, either BUG or RUG. (Still undecided)... I'm looking at new stuff and wondering if Greenwheel Liberator may be better than Tarmogoyf in this one particular archetype. In BUG it's basically always a 4/3 and is fine with us paying Delvecosts or using Deathrite Shaman. In RUG you also get freedom when using Grim Lavamancer while picking up the same 4/3. He's susceptible to Lightning Bolt, which is a drawback, but I can't help but wonder if the ease of getting power and freedom to utilize other abilities doesn't make up for that. I don't play a ton of competitive legacy though, so I'm not sure how common a drawback that is. From my experience, if I see removal in a legacy game, it's something that would have killed either one anyways (Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Dismember). Also with new stuff coming in there's Fatal Push, which I would expect to make toughness less relevant.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Currently Playing:UWBRG MAGIC: The Gathering UWBRG
I've played lists with one or two basics and it's ok, but it can really make some early draws into mulligans that otherwise wouldn't have been. If your meta is full of wasteland decks you could always try it. We are just a very greedy deck in regards to mana. Most of our spells have fairly hefty color requirements.
I've played lists with one or two basics and it's ok, but it can really make some early draws into mulligans that otherwise wouldn't have been. If your meta is full of wasteland decks you could always try it. We are just a very greedy deck in regards to mana. Most of our spells have fairly hefty color requirements.
Thats true, I have experienced that. My meta does contain quite a bit of wasteland for which reason I want to accomodate and play a basic Island over underground sea.
This would be looking like this:
I've basically only played this deck since GP: Seattle and I love it. I'm always making some small tweaks and adjustments.
#1) 19 Land I think 20 is a bit much and I was flooding out, the second Bayou is literally a brick most times, easy cut.
#2) THE List is pretty much set (you know what it is off by heart right?), but I'm always changing adding things. Especially cutting Tombstalker for TNN/Leovold. Other changes I make back and forth, Ponder for Bob (one more mana is huge but body is great). Thoughtsieze main for Fatal. 1 less Lily for TNN/Leovold etc.
I've basically only played this deck since GP: Seattle and I love it. I'm always making some small tweaks and adjustments.
#1) 19 Land I think 20 is a bit much and I was flooding out, the second Bayou is literally a brick most times, easy cut.
#2) THE List is pretty much set (you know what it is off by heart right?), but I'm always changing adding things. Especially cutting Tombstalker for TNN/Leovold. Other changes I make back and forth, Ponder for Bob (one more mana is huge but body is great). Thoughtsieze main for Fatal. 1 less Lily for TNN/Leovold etc.
Yeah my landbase posted does contain 19 lands, I think this is a good number.
Well, not sure about the standard list, would you mind sharing it actually? Don't you think things shake up a little bit with Leovold being printed and TNN being great right now?
TL;DR: Overall gradual rise over time; however, the prices do tend to ebb and flow. Key is just to get them whenever you see them at a price that works for you -- be it trade or buy. Still go for duals if given the option though because of Reserved List.
I can't quite say what to do about a budget build; it's really hard to emulate FoW and Wastelands. But I suppose what you suggested could work. They're pretty powerful cards in and of itself. I don't think Foil would work at all; BUG Delver is a pretty land light deck, but go ahead and try it if you're curious. It'll give you something to do while you're building up to those cards. Disrupting Shoal does a better FoW imitation than Foil, but that's not saying much. If I HAD to play a replacement, I'd go with Shoal. I wouldn't do either though and just run either more threats or better value cards. More counters or Liliana of the Veil or Hymn to Tourach or Sylvan Library.
Does anyone mind sharing me their sideboard?
How do u sideboard against: Mirror (Hymm type), Miracles, Manaless Dredge and Dredge
and what does Null Rod do that Pithing Needle can't?
How do YOU play it? Really. I need help. Do I run out my Delver always first turn or try to catch the 50/50 fetch?
Assume you have Stifle in hand, a fetchland, a normal dual (and other random cards).
vs
Stifle, fetch, dual, delver, 3 others.
(You are on the play).
Help!
Otherwise the longer the game goes the worse it gets against fair matches.
I tried the stifle version and wasn't a fan, either I am too impatient or just seem to never draw to blow someone out with it.
Play as a 1 of in infect and it was alright but nothing too special.
Yes, not feeding dig is pretty sweet.
LegacyUBRDelverRBU
- Hooting Mandrills
- Gurmag Angler
- Tombstalker
if you need Beef and you don't run Bob.2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
The opposite is true for Sultai Delver. It was given this name ironically because all of the key cards were thought to be overlooked in the American Legacy meta.
MTG finance guy- follow me on Twitter@RichArschmann or RichardArschmann on Reddit
Canadian was the Red splash in the original UG Threshold deck. I do believe that it was popularized by Dave Caplan and the choices that deck made are pretty much the same choices made now-a-days (Wastelands, Stifles, Red splash for Bolts).
That's pretty close to correct for Team America, as I'll show.
Nope, that is not correct at all.
So, yes, the name is a joke, a play on words that reference it's a-typical choices for an "American-made" deck and the American meta-game, a la Team America: World Police.
—Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
2-0 shardless bug
2-1 DeathBlade
2-1 High Tide
Nice results! Are you doing anything unique with your list?
If you hate the deck, I'm probably playing it!
Thats true, I have experienced that. My meta does contain quite a bit of wasteland for which reason I want to accomodate and play a basic Island over underground sea.
This would be looking like this:
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
3 Wasteland
Would that be bad to run given my maindeck configuration:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tarmogoyf
2 True-name Nemesis
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Gurmag Angler
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Fatal Push
1 Umezawa's Jitte
#1) 19 Land I think 20 is a bit much and I was flooding out, the second Bayou is literally a brick most times, easy cut.
#2) THE List is pretty much set (you know what it is off by heart right?), but I'm always changing adding things. Especially cutting Tombstalker for TNN/Leovold. Other changes I make back and forth, Ponder for Bob (one more mana is huge but body is great). Thoughtsieze main for Fatal. 1 less Lily for TNN/Leovold etc.
Yeah my landbase posted does contain 19 lands, I think this is a good number.
Well, not sure about the standard list, would you mind sharing it actually? Don't you think things shake up a little bit with Leovold being printed and TNN being great right now?