In your opinion, what is the current 'optimized' list?
Vs an open meta. Whether it be the control, or tempo variant.
There isn't an optimized list because what goes in TA depends on the meta. But I'm sure you're aware of this but there isn't a better answer to the question.
In my experience, there is a just a general movement more toward faster creature based decks with control elements, a healthy amount of control, and a weaker combo meta than what it was previously.
My personal style is a hybrid between tempo and BUG in which I'm tinkering with 2 Jaces. It's similar to the list I remarked on earlier but runs another land (I still think it may be too little), no preordains nor MP.
I've found that I like T1 discard more than Stifles and I use about 5 creature removals which is usually 2 Snuff Outs, 1 Dismember, 1 GftT, and 1 Smother. Smothers are really good right now and I would never go less than 2 Snuff outs.
I really like Sylvan Library and it's a close call between it and Liliana. Don't have time to playtest and make a decision. I would also like to see if TS may replace IoK, but I've been pretty content so far. 3rd IoK or 3rd Ponder is another thing I'm debating.
My current list is something like this:
4 Delver
4 Goyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Hymn
2 IoK
4 FoW
3 Daze
2 Snuff out
1 Dismember
1 Smother
1 GftT
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
2 Jace
21 lands
Sideboard:
Definitely not set, but will have Massacre, Perish, Naturalize, and GY hate. Maybe Life from the Loam?
What I will not consider:
Snapcaster. No one needs to tell me how remarkable he is, I get the point. But he does not belong in a tempo nor even a hybrid TA deck. He's much better in BUG control.
i like your list i run almost the exact same except
- 2 Snuff out + 2 Ghastly Demise
- 1 Tombstalker -1 Go for the Throat + 2 Snapcaster
- 1 Dismember +1 Liliana of the Viel
what are your thoughts on getting rid of the wastelands in favor of a more stable mana base ie. Basic Lands. I like my wastelands but feel the Basic Lands would almost be better.
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YES, WE KNOW THAT IT WILL BE GREAT IN YOUR EDH DECK.
i like your list i run almost the exact same except
- 2 Snuff out + 2 Ghastly Demise
- 1 Tombstalker -1 Go for the Throat + 2 Snapcaster
- 1 Dismember +1 Liliana of the Viel
what are your thoughts on getting rid of the wastelands in favor of a more stable mana base ie. Basic Lands. I like my wastelands but feel the Basic Lands would almost be better.
Although I dislike Snapcaster in TA, if I were to run any, this would be a good option. The synergy between the two is just annoying, especially when I have Goyf and Ghastly Demise to also consider. Ghastly and Tombstalker is a problem, especially when I need to kill a KotR.
This build seems to excel a bit more on mid game and is basically as balanced TA hybrid will come.
I'd have to do more testing to make up my mind, but otherwise it looks good.
For the wasteland. Basic lands don't really do it for me. It's great when one of your creatures get PtE but I don't like how it can screw up a Ponder/Brainstorm you spent setting up (conversely it could help your brainstorm). Besides, getting the B or U you need from underground sea is invaluable. T1 discard + Daze has given me the edge in so many games.
Wastelands also seem to be just awesome against decks with greedy mana bases. While I can drop stifle (albeit somewhat reluctantly), dropping wasteland prevents the bottle-necking that makes Daze and discard so wonderful. I agree it's pretty sh*tty against RUG tempo and Maverick, but it works well against control.
Your deck is nice. But IMHO Red is better than Black in this build. Bolt is way better than Ghastly and without Grim Lavamancer your going to need more removal. The only reason to play black in Legacy is for the discard and your not running any.
Alright I play MTGO and after RDW won the last SCG every Tom, Dick, and Jane is running this deck. My matchup is OK, because I have Spell Pierce, and Hydroblast in the sideboard, but am looking for something more. If anyone has any suggestions i would love to hear them. I've gotten to the point where i am considering putting Leyline of Sancitity in my sideboard a mulling til its in my hand.
With all the creature heavy decks currently in the SCG meta I believe combo will make a resurgence. This will balance out the meta. That is when TA thrives, because it is a well balanced deck that has no really unfavorable matchups
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YES, WE KNOW THAT IT WILL BE GREAT IN YOUR EDH DECK.
With all the creature heavy decks currently in the SCG meta I believe combo will make a resurgence. This will balance out the meta. That is when TA thrives, because it is a well balanced deck that has no really unfavorable matchups
What's the secret to owning merfolk? That one has eluded me.
I like what you have going on. I personally would like to see a life from the loam and a sylvan library somewhere in there but they aren't exactly mandatory and I am not sure what I would cut for them maybe one ponder and one of your creatures. *Shrugs* Overall, your list seems good though.
Which is why my team's adapted our list to what is essentially BUGstill. I suggest you do the same.
My friend audibled to it the day before SCG: DC and came in 23rd.
Congratulations to your friend on coming in 23rd.
In the current meta, it seems BUG control is faring better than TA. However this thread is about TA so we're trying to make modifications on TA to make it competitive in the current meta. There's enough confusion between TA and BUG control as it is.
Yeah this really looks solid. At first I was thinking lightning bolt also, but with all the creatures in the meta now, Ghastly Demise makes a lot of sense actually.
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"Bottled life. Not as tasty as I'm used to, rather stale, but it has the same effect." Baron Sengir My Deck Index
Main Decks:
Casual
Vampire
Zombie
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Last Stand Legacy
:symu::symb: Reanimator
Merfolk
:symb::symr: Dragon Stompy Vintage
:symu::symb::symg: Demon Oath
MUD
:symu::symr: Landstill
Traditionnal Team America tempo build, I made place for 3 'seize by cutting the 4th FOW (not many combos here) and the 4th spot removal (Lili' is by herself a removal).
SB is a mix between free spalls and utility.
combo MU should be very favorable pre- and post-SB
GW-decks MU is unfavourable but tempo, Massacre and Submerge should get the job done...
I'm still mixed on the more controlish BUG builds (aka "Team Tiago"), they are very slow to get the kill. If I would play a control deck atm it would be Bant.
I like the list. However, did you find the mindbreak traps somewhat excessive when your playing against a deck like TES or was it needed? Considering, you have a ton of disruption in the main.
Traditionnal Team America tempo build, I made place for 3 'seize by cutting the 4th FOW (not many combos here) and the 4th spot removal (Lili' is by herself a removal).
SB is a mix between free spalls and utility.
combo MU should be very favorable pre- and post-SB
GW-decks MU is unfavourable but tempo, Massacre and Submerge should get the job done...
I'm still mixed on the more controlish BUG builds (aka "Team Tiago"), they are very slow to get the kill. If I would play a control deck atm it would be Bant.
Yes, this is almost the exact list I use. I just love Tombstalker's ability to end games quickly.
RUG: -1 Stifle, -3 Force of will, -1 Snuff Out, -1 Thoughtseize, +3 Pernicious Deed, +3 Submerge
Keep in mind these are only general sideboard plans and so the sideboarding strategies can always vary even greatly from each matchup that you play against.
Yeah, and your deck runs less lands then what team america normally runs but that's fine since the deck strives pretty much on all tempo advantage since it's basically looks like a pretty standard dark delver tempo list afterall.
I'd take out Mongoose and add Thoughtseize or something instead.
And also -1 Tropical Island +1 Bayou (in case your only source of Green or Black gets extracted or something.
Quick question, what's the reasoning behind sideboarding out FoW? Still learning my tempo deck. Trying to figure out which moves are the best.
Yes, sure, I'll try to explain.
Force of will seems really bad against hymn to tourach decks like the mirror(Team America). Considering, if you hymn them and then try to force something a bit later your basically back to where you started before you hymned your opponent initially.
Against the Merfolk matchup, I board out forces because as a experienced merfolk player I am always happy to see my opponent force my vial knowing that I can either daze their force(if I am on the play) or just play another vial the following turn. So they are basically 2 for 1ing themselves by trying to force first or second turn vials.
Lastly, as for the RUG matchup, I board out force since I can get basically time walked when the RUG player would red or pyroblast my forces. Also they can tend to play a better tempo game since they play red but we have a bunch of tools that they don't have to fight decks like maverick. Pernicious deed definitely comes to mind for that matchup. (I am not going to get into further of the whole debate of what to play BUG tempo or RUG tempo since that's a totally different discussion for another time and place.)
Just wondering, has anyone considered running Misdirection on sideboard?
It's awesome against the mirror and the ability to swerve a STP/PtE from one of your creatures to one of your opponent's seems very enticing, especially since there are so many of them lurking around.
I actually like misdirection, I used to play it in my sideboard all of the time when I would play mono blue control competitively in legacy. I definitely agree, it's useful, although, not everyone is a fan of it but it definitely deserves to be tested at the very least.
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There isn't an optimized list because what goes in TA depends on the meta. But I'm sure you're aware of this but there isn't a better answer to the question.
In my experience, there is a just a general movement more toward faster creature based decks with control elements, a healthy amount of control, and a weaker combo meta than what it was previously.
My personal style is a hybrid between tempo and BUG in which I'm tinkering with 2 Jaces. It's similar to the list I remarked on earlier but runs another land (I still think it may be too little), no preordains nor MP.
I've found that I like T1 discard more than Stifles and I use about 5 creature removals which is usually 2 Snuff Outs, 1 Dismember, 1 GftT, and 1 Smother. Smothers are really good right now and I would never go less than 2 Snuff outs.
I really like Sylvan Library and it's a close call between it and Liliana. Don't have time to playtest and make a decision. I would also like to see if TS may replace IoK, but I've been pretty content so far. 3rd IoK or 3rd Ponder is another thing I'm debating.
My current list is something like this:
4 Delver
4 Goyf
3 Tombstalker
4 Hymn
2 IoK
4 FoW
3 Daze
2 Snuff out
1 Dismember
1 Smother
1 GftT
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Sylvan Library
2 Jace
21 lands
Sideboard:
Definitely not set, but will have Massacre, Perish, Naturalize, and GY hate. Maybe Life from the Loam?
What I will not consider:
Snapcaster. No one needs to tell me how remarkable he is, I get the point. But he does not belong in a tempo nor even a hybrid TA deck. He's much better in BUG control.
Any comments/suggestions would be great.
- 2 Snuff out + 2 Ghastly Demise
- 1 Tombstalker -1 Go for the Throat + 2 Snapcaster
- 1 Dismember +1 Liliana of the Viel
what are your thoughts on getting rid of the wastelands in favor of a more stable mana base ie. Basic Lands. I like my wastelands but feel the Basic Lands would almost be better.
Although I dislike Snapcaster in TA, if I were to run any, this would be a good option. The synergy between the two is just annoying, especially when I have Goyf and Ghastly Demise to also consider. Ghastly and Tombstalker is a problem, especially when I need to kill a KotR.
This build seems to excel a bit more on mid game and is basically as balanced TA hybrid will come.
I'd have to do more testing to make up my mind, but otherwise it looks good.
For the wasteland. Basic lands don't really do it for me. It's great when one of your creatures get PtE but I don't like how it can screw up a Ponder/Brainstorm you spent setting up (conversely it could help your brainstorm). Besides, getting the B or U you need from underground sea is invaluable. T1 discard + Daze has given me the edge in so many games.
Wastelands also seem to be just awesome against decks with greedy mana bases. While I can drop stifle (albeit somewhat reluctantly), dropping wasteland prevents the bottle-necking that makes Daze and discard so wonderful. I agree it's pretty sh*tty against RUG tempo and Maverick, but it works well against control.
edit: Throwing a dark thresh build together. Haven't tested yet. Comments?
4 Delver of secrets
4 Dark confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Nimble mongoose
Spells [27]
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Spell snare
4 Force of will
3 Ghastly demise
4 Flooded Strand
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
No sb yet, just trying out md first.
Esper Heartless
Frites
ANT
:sympu::sympr:Jhoira of the Ghitu:sympr::sympu:
Alright I play MTGO and after RDW won the last SCG every Tom, Dick, and Jane is running this deck. My matchup is OK, because I have Spell Pierce, and Hydroblast in the sideboard, but am looking for something more. If anyone has any suggestions i would love to hear them. I've gotten to the point where i am considering putting Leyline of Sancitity in my sideboard a mulling til its in my hand.
With all the creature heavy decks currently in the SCG meta I believe combo will make a resurgence. This will balance out the meta. That is when TA thrives, because it is a well balanced deck that has no really unfavorable matchups
What's the secret to owning merfolk? That one has eluded me.
I like what you have going on. I personally would like to see a life from the loam and a sylvan library somewhere in there but they aren't exactly mandatory and I am not sure what I would cut for them maybe one ponder and one of your creatures. *Shrugs* Overall, your list seems good though.
Unfortunately it's usually a turn too slow. Not to mention that it often gets stifled.
Deed is a much better BUG control card than it is TA.
My friend audibled to it the day before SCG: DC and came in 23rd.
Congratulations to your friend on coming in 23rd.
In the current meta, it seems BUG control is faring better than TA. However this thread is about TA so we're trying to make modifications on TA to make it competitive in the current meta. There's enough confusion between TA and BUG control as it is.
My Deck Index
Main Decks:
Vampire
Zombie
:symw::symu::symb::symr::symg: Last Stand
Legacy
:symu::symb: Reanimator
Merfolk
:symb::symr: Dragon Stompy
Vintage
:symu::symb::symg: Demon Oath
MUD
:symu::symr: Landstill
Lets say vs U/W stone, Bant, BUG, Dredge, Goblins, merfolk and RUG tempo? What do you take out, put in?
I like the list. However, did you find the mindbreak traps somewhat excessive when your playing against a deck like TES or was it needed? Considering, you have a ton of disruption in the main.
Yes, this is almost the exact list I use. I just love Tombstalker's ability to end games quickly.
I prefer the 1/1/1 split of : Snuff Out, Dismember, Ghastly Demise or Go For the Throat
Thank you mchief111, great sig
Lvl 37 Planeswalker
Current:
Legacy:
:symu::symb::symr::symw::symg: TES | Spiral Tide | MUD | :symu::symb::symg: Lands | Burn | :symr::symbg: Goblins | Elf Combo
Vintage:
:symb::symu: Titan Dredge | :symb::symu::symw: Bomberman
Modern:
:symu::symr: Kiki-Twin | :symr::symg: Tron
Standard:
Wip
EDH:
:symb::symu::symw: Zur
Ah, I missed this post. Sorry.
With RBS's team america deck I would sideboard something like this:
UW stoneblade: -1 Stifle, -2 Tombstalker, +1 Spell pierce, +2 Surgical Extraction.
Bant: -4 Stifle, -1 Daze, -3 Force of will, +3 Pernicious Deed, +2 Massacre, +3 Submerge.
Mirror(BUG): -3 Force of will, -1 Daze, -1 Stifle, -2 Snuff out, +2 Surgical Extraction, +3 Submerge, +2 Spell Pierce.
Dredge: -4 Hymn to tourach, -2 Liliana, +2 Surgical extraction, +2 Deed, +2 Spell pierce.
Goblins: -2 Liliana, -1 Daze, +3 Pernicious Deed.
Merfolk: -3 Force of will, +3 Pernicious Deed
RUG: -1 Stifle, -3 Force of will, -1 Snuff Out, -1 Thoughtseize, +3 Pernicious Deed, +3 Submerge
Keep in mind these are only general sideboard plans and so the sideboarding strategies can always vary even greatly from each matchup that you play against.
WHAT? No Hymns??? Thought the point of having greedy mana base is to try to get t2 Hymn.
Hymn is my favorite card ever printed, but I was trying to stay away from double color requirements.. I do miss them.
Esper Heartless
Frites
ANT
:sympu::sympr:Jhoira of the Ghitu:sympr::sympu:
And also -1 Tropical Island +1 Bayou (in case your only source of Green or Black gets extracted or something.
—Sarnvax, Gitaxian sective
Yes, sure, I'll try to explain.
Force of will seems really bad against hymn to tourach decks like the mirror(Team America). Considering, if you hymn them and then try to force something a bit later your basically back to where you started before you hymned your opponent initially.
Against the Merfolk matchup, I board out forces because as a experienced merfolk player I am always happy to see my opponent force my vial knowing that I can either daze their force(if I am on the play) or just play another vial the following turn. So they are basically 2 for 1ing themselves by trying to force first or second turn vials.
Lastly, as for the RUG matchup, I board out force since I can get basically time walked when the RUG player would red or pyroblast my forces. Also they can tend to play a better tempo game since they play red but we have a bunch of tools that they don't have to fight decks like maverick. Pernicious deed definitely comes to mind for that matchup. (I am not going to get into further of the whole debate of what to play BUG tempo or RUG tempo since that's a totally different discussion for another time and place.)
It's awesome against the mirror and the ability to swerve a STP/PtE from one of your creatures to one of your opponent's seems very enticing, especially since there are so many of them lurking around.