Just putting it out there, your characterizing a deck as not being "too bad" and process to reccomend changing a third of his 75.
I meant to ask this earlier, why do you dislike Citadel? For a while it was the only land I ran as a 4-of. It really can save your butt with Glimmervoid and Etched Champion and is immune to wasteland
By "deck" I meant his main deck. I really only changed 15% of that and it was mainly his mana base.
I used to play Darksteel Citadel but I found that they would just waste one of my other lands anyways and I was left with a colorless producing land. If I had two color producing lands then I could at least produce a colored mana. I was also having trouble creating the colors I needed at times. I am not saying that it is definitively better but if you are going to run 3 colors main deck then I think you should max out artifact lands of those colors. Making a 5/5 indestructible creature with Tezz is good but I almost never use his second ability.
Fair enough. I've never played more than 2 Dispatch or Galv Blast as a 3rd color md.
The main use for Dispatch nowadays is Maverick I think. We never really liked goyf or KotR too much... If grim Lavamancer saw more play it might be a good target, though Needle is better
Honestly after about 2 dozen sets I don't miss Master of Etherium...thats kind of frightening seeing he's a beater for sure, but I just don't miss him.
This is my current list. For a small white splash, I think Mox Opal and drums are enough to support it without needing Ancient Den. My list is a little different because I run a 4/4 Etched Champion and Master, I know a lot of people prefer a 3/3 split. I also don't have Blinkmoth's, as I can't find them anywhere.
On the topic of Darksteel Citadel: The first Legacy game I ever played with my Affinity deck was against Fish. I decided before the tournament I hated Darksteel Citadel and just played more artifact lands. Then I kept a 2-lander and lost my first Legacy game with 0 land on the field...
Darksteel Citadel, if you're anticipating decks which use Wasteland, is practically a necessity, in my opinion.
Anyone going to Indy?
To the guy who asked: this is my currently list of Affinity, which placed tenth at SCG: Atlanta:
Frogmites usually cost no mana, which lets me "explode" much more. For the same reason, Frogmites are much better with Tezz, as when I +1 him on turn three/four I'm looking for a dude to block whatever they're about to attack him with so I can win the next turn. Frogmites also trade with Delvers of all flavors (I hate Delver with a burning passion).
In Legacy Affinity, I don't find the evasion on Vault Skirge too relevant. Any ground guys that are big enough to care about are either Tarmogoyfs or Knights of the Reliquaries, and in those matchups the only way Vault Skirge having evasion matters is if you have a Cranial Plating (and if you have a Plating out against those decks, you don't mind your Frogmite trading with a Gofy).
I guess the lifelink is decent against burn, but to get out Vault Skirge against burn you have to either pay two life or play him on turn 2 (where you should be around 10-14 life, and gaining 1 life a turn wont do much). I'd rather just play Frogmite on turn one and kill them faster.
Frogmite kind of sucks against Merfolk, though. So if your meta is full of Fish, Vault Skirge works.
Also, Frogmite will survive a Pernicious Deed (usually).
When flipped Delver has flying... so no it doesn't, not in the context of saving Tezz anyway. I do think that the rest of your points are relevant though, still I’ll keep Skirge until something better comes along. I don’t think Frogmite is a strong enough substitute for Vault Skirge in Legacy though - Lifelink and Flying are both very powerful abilities in a format full of Goyfs, KotRs, Merfolk, Goblins, Elves and Manlands.
I totally agree. Frogmite is a bear, and one that costs 4 mana at that. Nobody plays merfolk anymore, but I still think skirge is way better. It can block a delver, it races progenitus, it races batterskull (all with plating) and you can always play it turn one, unlike frogmite. I guess frogmite decks are faster and that is definitely how you can win, but then don't play tezz, just play fast things.
I like the more controlling affinity, so I play skirge and tezz, and I feel that this makes the deck as a whole more resilient and capable of interacting with the opponent, instead of just emptying your hand T1 and hoping they can't wrath, deed, shattering spree or something similar. Frogmite / enforcer decks kinda fizzle after wraths.
When flipped Delver has flying... so no it doesn't, not in the context of saving Tezz anyway. I do think that the rest of your points are relevant though, still I’ll keep Skirge until something better comes along. I don’t think Frogmite is a strong enough substitute for Vault Skirge in Legacy though - Lifelink and Flying are both very powerful abilities in a format full of Goyfs, KotRs, Merfolk, Goblins, Elves and Manlands.
It does on the offensive. If you're leaving Vault Skirge back to block Delver, you're already losing. If you can trade your Vault Skirge for a Delver, you have a Plating out, and once again at that point, why aren't you attacking? Also, saying that Frogmite doesn't block Delver for Tezz is quite true, but then you're connecting two points which were independent of one another.
I totally agree. Frogmite is a bear, and one that costs 4 mana at that. Nobody plays merfolk anymore, but I still think skirge is way better. It can block a delver, it races progenitus, it races batterskull (all with plating) and you can always play it turn one, unlike frogmite. I guess frogmite decks are faster and that is definitely how you can win, but then don't play tezz, just play fast things.
I like the more controlling affinity, so I play skirge and tezz, and I feel that this makes the deck as a whole more resilient and capable of interacting with the opponent, instead of just emptying your hand T1 and hoping they can't wrath, deed, shattering spree or something similar. Frogmite / enforcer decks kinda fizzle after wraths.
Frogmite doesn't cost 4 mana--it costs 0-1. It is faster--but you seem to think fast and slow are mutually exclusive. How is Vault Skirge more "controlling" than Frogmite? It helps you against creature decks, but Affinity's matchup against creature decks is already pretty good. If you stick a Tezz, you win. If you stick an Etched Champion, you win. If you stick a Plating, you win. Playing a more "controlling" Affinity with removal and Stoneforge is fine--but at that point you're just making your good matchups better.
It's like how Punishing Maverick is absolutely amazing against creature decks, but more or less folds to combo decks. Punishing Maverick has fallen in popularity because people realized the deck already beats creatures, so playing red is mostly unnecessary. A lot of Maverick lists are going to Bant to improve their combo matchup, and in that regard, Frogmite is much better than Vault Skirge.
Vault Skirge is better against creature decks when you have a Cranial Plating out. But what if you don't? Trust me, you're not racing a Progenitus with a 1/1 Vault Skirge. The deck needs a way to win other than "oops I drew Cranial Plating." There's a huge different between turn 1:
Seat, Opal, Memnite, Signal Pest, Frogmite, Signal Pest (You could even replace one of these Signal Pests with a Thoughtcast and drop another memnite/frogmite/ornithopter)
and...
Seat, Opal, Memnite, Signal Pest, Vault Skirge
Vault Skirge just slows your deck down to the point where combo is basically an auto-lose. When playing in a ten-round tournament, I'm not prepared to take that chance.
I'm planning to road trip to Indy this weekend with some folks from my LGS, and I'm considering either RUG Delver or Affinity. I'll be testing with both for the next few days, but I'm somewhat leaning toward Affinity because I'm pretty new to Legacy and, to be honest, I think Affinity will be a little easier to play.
Anyhow, I've been playtesting my friend's list and have loved Ancient Tomb. Ravager was a little lackluster, however, given the anti-synergy with Plating. Please let me know what you think of the following list I've put together, based largely on Owen Turtenwald's list from a couple months ago.
Sideboard is in a bit of flux right now as I'm still trying to finalize the maindeck.
Some thoughts:
Ancient Tomb is insane. I'm not sure I feel comfortable playing 4 of them, but 3 is a definite possibility. I feel like you definitely want some number of them if you decide to play the 4 Master/4 Champion build.
Blinkmoth Nexus is probably incorrect in a format with so many decks playing Wasteland, but I would honestly rather them Wasteland my Nexus than Seat/Vault/Glimmervoid. The added evasive threat and Plating carrier seems worth the risk.
I'm still back and forth on Arcbound Ravager. Yes, he can blank removal, stop Jitte from gaining counters and nix Batterskull gaining life (of course, Etched Champion can do these things too...), but he can be really clunky at times and conflicts with Master of Etherium and Tezzeret.
I'm pretty convinced playing with less than 4 Etched Champion is a crime. Priority #1 will be finding room for a 4th one.
I haven't really missed Vault Skirge. It's a good card, but it doesn't feel correct right now.
I do like the idea of having maindeck Dispatch (and potentially Stoneforge Mystic/Steelshaper's Gift), but I don't know if I can bring myself to pull the trigger. If I did, it would look something like:
I like them both (and am glad someone else has had success with Tomb), but I feel 4 Mox and 4 Drums is a little much, especially without Ravager. I would go with 3/3, 4/3, or 4/2 (more Moxen), with 4/2 being my preference. Cutting down to 2 Drums would allow Zifbox to play a fourth Skirge and maybe another Tezz if he wants to. Nick, you could throw in maybe a 3rd SFM in your first list and a 3rd Ravager in your second, although you could also stick with 3 Drums.
Both lists look pretty solid to me, though I would strongly encourage Nick to play more Citadels in both lists. Wastelands are just everywhere, and the extra protection on Etched Champion is always nice. I have won games because I had 2 Citadels that saved my Champions after a Shattering Spree.
Zibox: Your sideboard is very interesting to me, especially the 6 graveyard hate cards, though that makes sense as I have a feeling Snapcaster, goyf, KotR, or Mongoose will be in virtually every non-combo deck in Indy. What matchups would you like to bring in more Tezzerets against? My general sb plan often involves siding them out. Spellskite is a solid choice, though I think if you have it you should likely have 2-3. I expect it will be coming in vs decks running Lightning Bolt? Dismember is an interesting call, as I wonder if it would really be better than Dispatch or Go for the Throat.
Your missing a few very common sb cards and I was wondering if you would mind explaining why. Art/Enchant destruction kills most hate-cards and is useful vs Batterskulls, Blood Moons, or swords. Cabal Therapy is another great card, though it requires skill and knowledge to play well.
Hello again affinity lovers! Been long since I last visit this thread and use affinity but found the love for my first deck again after playtest shows promising results:
Just playtested with soul sister, elves and gobs with 3 games with each player and won all 9 games per and post board.
Back to nature is for pesky enchantress which really a bad match up for me. The glimmervoid is to work around energy flux, null rod and stony silence. Darksteel citadel for tezz -1 ability that blocks all it can with out getting destroyed except for stp. Didn't go with white for dispatch because i feel etched champion and MoE already takes care of KotR match up.:D
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Mono color Rules!
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In the U/B list, the 2 Blinkmoth Nexus will likely become Darksteel Citadel. I haven't been terribly ecstatic about them and it's an easy swap.
I think 4 Mox/3 Drum is the configuration I'm most comfortable with. 4 Mox may be pushing it a bit without Arcbound Ravager, but it's a card you pretty much always want to see in your opener.
The Esper mana is a bit tricky to figure out in terms of fitting in Darksteel Citadel. The 4 Seat and 4 Vault are non-negotiable. Ancient Tomb is obviously ridiculous, although not being an artifact (then again, this isn't necessarily a bad thing!) and not being able to produce colored mana is a bit worrisome. Glimmervoid seems almost essential in some numbers in a 3 color build (I know the recent T16 list didn't play any.) The White isn't as crucial, so perhaps Ancient Den isn't strictly necessary at all?
A reasonable compromise for Esper could be something like:
Thanks for looking it over, Raggedjoe! Please note that my responses are based largely on theory, as I'm very sure I have less experience with the deck than most people posting in this thread.
I like them both (and am glad someone else has had success with Tomb), but I feel 4 Mox and 4 Drums is a little much, especially without Ravager. I would go with 3/3, 4/3, or 4/2 (more Moxen), with 4/2 being my preference.
I'm only running 15 lands, which is why I have 4 of each. Like the Ancient Tombs, it helps make your draws more explosive, though perhaps hurting consistency. I could see cutting one Drum for a Glimmervoid.
Zibox: Your sideboard is very interesting to me, especially the 6 graveyard hate cards, though that makes sense as I have a feeling Snapcaster, goyf, KotR, or Mongoose will be in virtually every non-combo deck in Indy. What matchups would you like to bring in more Tezzerets against? My general sb plan often involves siding them out. Spellskite is a solid choice, though I think if you have it you should likely have 2-3. I expect it will be coming in vs decks running Lightning Bolt? Dismember is an interesting call, as I wonder if it would really be better than Dispatch or Go for the Throat.
To be quite honest, It's based on Mr. Turtenwald's list. I had to start somewhere, and it's very much subject to change.
Quad Relic is brought in against Goyf/Snapcaster/KotR decks, as you surmised. And I'm afraid enough of Dredge/Reanimator that I want 2 more zero-cost answers as well. The additional Tezzerets are for any kind of control match-up that can attrition you out, like UW Stoneforge, BUG, or Nic Fit. Spellskite is for any removal-heavy deck, especially those with the means to kill Plating. I agree that only having 1 isn't super great, but at the moment I don't know what I'd cut for a second. It's possible that it should just be something else instead of having only one. Dismember is for Stoneforge Mystic. That's pretty much it. I'd rather just kill the Mystic for one mana than try to kill Batterskull after the fact.
Your missing a few very common sb cards and I was wondering if you would mind explaining why. Art/Enchant destruction kills most hate-cards and is useful vs Batterskulls, Blood Moons, or swords. Cabal Therapy is another great card, though it requires skill and knowledge to play well.
As mentioned, Dismember fills the same roll against Batterskull. If it's late enough for them to hard cast, I've already lost. Swords don't seem overly threatening, since most of our creatures are colorless and/or evasive.
Blood Moons don't seem too bad for us... Fun fact: Blood Moon doesn't take the Artifact supertype away from your lands! And you've still got Moxen and Drums to make blue and black.
What enchantments should I be worried about? I guess Stony Silence is a beating, but it's not like you can afford to leave your mana open in anticipation of it, so you're likely still screwed when it resolves.
Therapy does sound awfully good in a deck with zero-drop creatures, though it's best turn one and you can hardly rely on having black mana that turn. What match-ups would you recommend it for?
You're really boarding in Relic against Gofy / Knight / Snapcaster decks? What do you take out? I feel like like that's not a good idea in a beatdown deck.
Thanks for looking it over, Raggedjoe! Please note that my responses are based largely on theory, as I'm very sure I have less experience with the deck than most people posting in this thread.
I'm only running 15 lands, which is why I have 4 of each. Like the Ancient Tombs, it helps make your draws more explosive, though perhaps hurting consistency. I could see cutting one Drum for a Glimmervoid.
I still think its unnecessary. I have played this deck with 15 and 16 lands, every number of tombs from 0 to 3, and I don't think we ever need 4 Drums. I'm actually testing lotus petal over drum right now. Drum is just not a great card, and isn't extra mana until after a turn.
To be quite honest, It's based on Mr. Turtenwald's list. I had to start somewhere, and it's very much subject to change.
Quad Relic is brought in against Goyf/Snapcaster/KotR decks, as you surmised. And I'm afraid enough of Dredge/Reanimator that I want 2 more zero-cost answers as well. The additional Tezzerets are for any kind of control match-up that can attrition you out, like UW Stoneforge, BUG, or Nic Fit. Spellskite is for any removal-heavy deck, especially those with the means to kill Plating. I agree that only having 1 isn't super great, but at the moment I don't know what I'd cut for a second. It's possible that it should just be something else instead of having only one. Dismember is for Stoneforge Mystic. That's pretty much it. I'd rather just kill the Mystic for one mana than try to kill Batterskull after the fact.
That's fair, though my experience is that we don't want to be slowing ourselves down vs those decks.For that reason I have always been a fan of Surgical Extraction. Relic is great, but it costs mana. Extra Tezzerets are something I don't know if I have actually ever tried. I generally use Cabal Therapy over Tezz vs StoneBlade, and graveyard hate over Ravager vs BUG and Nic Fic (neither deck has Jitte, lifelink, spot remova, or other abilities that ravager can blank). Generally Ravager is my spot-removal deterrent due to his epicness with Etched Champion, but I won't say Spellskite is a bad more. Rather than Dismember on the SFM, I find the best way to deal with Batterskull is Cabal Therapy. Thanks for showing me the card.
As mentioned, Dismember fills the same roll against Batterskull. If it's late enough for them to hard cast, I've already lost. Swords don't seem overly threatening, since most of our creatures are colorless and/or evasive.
Specifically, Jitte and SoFaI kill our dudes.
Blood Moons don't seem too bad for us... Fun fact: Blood Moon doesn't take the Artifact supertype away from your lands! And you've still got Moxen and Drums to make blue and black.
They may be artefacts, but they only produce :symr:, and I dislike having to rely on the Moxen. Besides, the same deck that runs Blood Moon also tends to run Trinisphere *shudders*
What enchantments should I be worried about? I guess Stony Silence is a beating, but it's not like you can afford to leave your mana open in anticipation of it, so you're likely still screwed when it resolves.
Stoney Silence, Humility, Words of War, Counterballence, Hive Mind, Sneak Attack (The last is better dealt with by Pithing Needle, and the last three with Therapy).
Therapy does sound awfully good in a deck with zero-drop creatures, though it's best turn one and you can hardly rely on having black mana that turn. What match-ups would you recommend it for?
Everything? Lol. Therapy is my go-to card off the sb. If they don't play a graveyard deck, an experienced pilot can use therapy well. StoneBlade is my favorite though.
^^^
EDIT:
Listy. Currently testing -1 Mox -2 Drum -4 Ravager +3 Lotus Petal +4 Frogmite
Ah, I actually had a mistype there. 4 Citadel and 3 MoE. Sorry about that I was in a slight hurry and was like "4 of each creature, 3 of each land..." without thinking.
Ravager sometimes feels like a dead card in hand strangely enough to me. He is the single most expensive thing in the deck that doesn't say "I win" on it (which is insane if you think about it). In the current meta, unlike when I was pioneering the deck, flying =/= unblockable. Vs Canadian and Team America, we actually need to be faster, so that is what has motivated me to testing a more explosive list by replacing Ravager with Frogmite and Drum with Petal. I haven't had an opportunity to test much yet though (student). I don't have any results to back up these ideas, mainly its just my musings on possibilities.
I've decided to try and test this deck out again, as I feel the format is not as volatile towards it as it once was.
Let me ask you, is SFM + Batterskull still a valid option for this deck?
I have put some thought into that and I am forced to say likely not. I know it looks stupid on the face of it that "SFM dies to removal", but that's really what it is. Every deck can kill him easily, we have 0 ways to protect him, and then we have a batterskull stuck in our hand.
I have put some thought into that and I am forced to say likely not. I know it looks stupid on the face of it that "SFM dies to removal", but that's really what it is. Every deck can kill him easily, we have 0 ways to protect him, and then we have a batterskull stuck in our hand.
Haha I'm not fetching Batterskull everytime, likely Cranial Plating more oftan than not.
However just to be able to fetch Batterskull against a deck like Nic Fit perhaps?
By "deck" I meant his main deck. I really only changed 15% of that and it was mainly his mana base.
I used to play Darksteel Citadel but I found that they would just waste one of my other lands anyways and I was left with a colorless producing land. If I had two color producing lands then I could at least produce a colored mana. I was also having trouble creating the colors I needed at times. I am not saying that it is definitively better but if you are going to run 3 colors main deck then I think you should max out artifact lands of those colors. Making a 5/5 indestructible creature with Tezz is good but I almost never use his second ability.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
The main use for Dispatch nowadays is Maverick I think. We never really liked goyf or KotR too much... If grim Lavamancer saw more play it might be a good target, though Needle is better
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Highlights:
Dispatch
Phyrexian Revoker
Inkmoth Nexus
Honestly after about 2 dozen sets I don't miss Master of Etherium...thats kind of frightening seeing he's a beater for sure, but I just don't miss him.
Priceless Creature,
Etched Champion
S.M.
4x Vault of Whispers
2x Glimmervoid
4x Darksteel Citadel
4x Inkmoth Nexus
3x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
3x Mox Opal
3x Springleaf Drum
4x Cranial Plating
2x Dispatch
3x Signal Pest
4x Memnite
4x Vault Skirge
4x Arcbound Ravager
3x Etched Champion
2x Ornithopter
3x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Leyline of Sanctity
4x Nature's Claim
1x Dispatch
4x Leyline of the Void
2x Whipflare
4x Vault of Whispers
2x Glimmervoid
4x Darksteel Citadel
2x Ancient Tomb
4x Mox Opal
3x Springleaf Drum
4x Cranial Plating
4x Thoughtcast
4x Memnite
4x Vault Skirge
2x Arcbound Ravager
4x Etched Champion
4x Ornithopter
4x Master of Etherium
This is my current list. For a small white splash, I think Mox Opal and drums are enough to support it without needing Ancient Den. My list is a little different because I run a 4/4 Etched Champion and Master, I know a lot of people prefer a 3/3 split. I also don't have Blinkmoth's, as I can't find them anywhere.
WGURBLands!WGURB
WGUInfectWGU
Legacy Lands Primer
Top 8 SCG Oakland 2014
Helpdesk
My Cube on CubeTutor
Darksteel Citadel, if you're anticipating decks which use Wasteland, is practically a necessity, in my opinion.
Anyone going to Indy?
To the guy who asked: this is my currently list of Affinity, which placed tenth at SCG: Atlanta:
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=961296
(Also, the coolest feeling in the world is being able to Google yourself and find the information you're looking for nearly-instantly...)
I notice a distinct lack of vault skirge from your list. Thoughts?
When are Frogmites ever useful? They don't fly :/
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
In Legacy Affinity, I don't find the evasion on Vault Skirge too relevant. Any ground guys that are big enough to care about are either Tarmogoyfs or Knights of the Reliquaries, and in those matchups the only way Vault Skirge having evasion matters is if you have a Cranial Plating (and if you have a Plating out against those decks, you don't mind your Frogmite trading with a Gofy).
I guess the lifelink is decent against burn, but to get out Vault Skirge against burn you have to either pay two life or play him on turn 2 (where you should be around 10-14 life, and gaining 1 life a turn wont do much). I'd rather just play Frogmite on turn one and kill them faster.
Frogmite kind of sucks against Merfolk, though. So if your meta is full of Fish, Vault Skirge works.
Also, Frogmite will survive a Pernicious Deed (usually).
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
I totally agree. Frogmite is a bear, and one that costs 4 mana at that. Nobody plays merfolk anymore, but I still think skirge is way better. It can block a delver, it races progenitus, it races batterskull (all with plating) and you can always play it turn one, unlike frogmite. I guess frogmite decks are faster and that is definitely how you can win, but then don't play tezz, just play fast things.
I like the more controlling affinity, so I play skirge and tezz, and I feel that this makes the deck as a whole more resilient and capable of interacting with the opponent, instead of just emptying your hand T1 and hoping they can't wrath, deed, shattering spree or something similar. Frogmite / enforcer decks kinda fizzle after wraths.
It does on the offensive. If you're leaving Vault Skirge back to block Delver, you're already losing. If you can trade your Vault Skirge for a Delver, you have a Plating out, and once again at that point, why aren't you attacking? Also, saying that Frogmite doesn't block Delver for Tezz is quite true, but then you're connecting two points which were independent of one another.
Frogmite doesn't cost 4 mana--it costs 0-1. It is faster--but you seem to think fast and slow are mutually exclusive. How is Vault Skirge more "controlling" than Frogmite? It helps you against creature decks, but Affinity's matchup against creature decks is already pretty good. If you stick a Tezz, you win. If you stick an Etched Champion, you win. If you stick a Plating, you win. Playing a more "controlling" Affinity with removal and Stoneforge is fine--but at that point you're just making your good matchups better.
It's like how Punishing Maverick is absolutely amazing against creature decks, but more or less folds to combo decks. Punishing Maverick has fallen in popularity because people realized the deck already beats creatures, so playing red is mostly unnecessary. A lot of Maverick lists are going to Bant to improve their combo matchup, and in that regard, Frogmite is much better than Vault Skirge.
Vault Skirge is better against creature decks when you have a Cranial Plating out. But what if you don't? Trust me, you're not racing a Progenitus with a 1/1 Vault Skirge. The deck needs a way to win other than "oops I drew Cranial Plating." There's a huge different between turn 1:
Seat, Opal, Memnite, Signal Pest, Frogmite, Signal Pest (You could even replace one of these Signal Pests with a Thoughtcast and drop another memnite/frogmite/ornithopter)
and...
Seat, Opal, Memnite, Signal Pest, Vault Skirge
Vault Skirge just slows your deck down to the point where combo is basically an auto-lose. When playing in a ten-round tournament, I'm not prepared to take that chance.
I'm planning to road trip to Indy this weekend with some folks from my LGS, and I'm considering either RUG Delver or Affinity. I'll be testing with both for the next few days, but I'm somewhat leaning toward Affinity because I'm pretty new to Legacy and, to be honest, I think Affinity will be a little easier to play.
Anyhow, I've been playtesting my friend's list and have loved Ancient Tomb. Ravager was a little lackluster, however, given the anti-synergy with Plating. Please let me know what you think of the following list I've put together, based largely on Owen Turtenwald's list from a couple months ago.
4x Vault of Whispers
4x Darksteel Citadel
3x Ancient Tomb
2x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4x Mox Opal
4x Springleaf Drum
4x Cranial Plating
4x Thoughtcast
4x Signal Pest
4x Memnite
4x Ornithopter
4x Frogmite
4x Master of Etherium
4x Etched Champion
4x Mindbreak Trap
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1x Spellskite
2x Dismember
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
4 Arcbound Ravager
3 Etched Champion
4 Frogmite
3 Master of Etherium
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest
4 Mox Opal
3 Springleaf Drum
4 Thoughtcast
Sideboard is in a bit of flux right now as I'm still trying to finalize the maindeck.
Some thoughts:
Ancient Tomb is insane. I'm not sure I feel comfortable playing 4 of them, but 3 is a definite possibility. I feel like you definitely want some number of them if you decide to play the 4 Master/4 Champion build.
Blinkmoth Nexus is probably incorrect in a format with so many decks playing Wasteland, but I would honestly rather them Wasteland my Nexus than Seat/Vault/Glimmervoid. The added evasive threat and Plating carrier seems worth the risk.
I'm still back and forth on Arcbound Ravager. Yes, he can blank removal, stop Jitte from gaining counters and nix Batterskull gaining life (of course, Etched Champion can do these things too...), but he can be really clunky at times and conflicts with Master of Etherium and Tezzeret.
I'm pretty convinced playing with less than 4 Etched Champion is a crime. Priority #1 will be finding room for a 4th one.
I haven't really missed Vault Skirge. It's a good card, but it doesn't feel correct right now.
I do like the idea of having maindeck Dispatch (and potentially Stoneforge Mystic/Steelshaper's Gift), but I don't know if I can bring myself to pull the trigger. If I did, it would look something like:
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Frogmite
4 Master of Etherium
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest
2 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Cranial Plating
3 Dispatch
4 Mox Opal
3 Springleaf Drum
4 Thoughtcast
Otherwise, a revised U/B list:
2 Blinkmoth Nexus
2 Darksteel Citadel
2 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
2 Arcbound Ravager
4 Etched Champion
4 Frogmite
4 Master of Etherium
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest
4 Mox Opal
3 Springleaf Drum
4 Thoughtcast
Both lists look pretty solid to me, though I would strongly encourage Nick to play more Citadels in both lists. Wastelands are just everywhere, and the extra protection on Etched Champion is always nice. I have won games because I had 2 Citadels that saved my Champions after a Shattering Spree.
Zibox: Your sideboard is very interesting to me, especially the 6 graveyard hate cards, though that makes sense as I have a feeling Snapcaster, goyf, KotR, or Mongoose will be in virtually every non-combo deck in Indy. What matchups would you like to bring in more Tezzerets against? My general sb plan often involves siding them out. Spellskite is a solid choice, though I think if you have it you should likely have 2-3. I expect it will be coming in vs decks running Lightning Bolt? Dismember is an interesting call, as I wonder if it would really be better than Dispatch or Go for the Throat.
Your missing a few very common sb cards and I was wondering if you would mind explaining why. Art/Enchant destruction kills most hate-cards and is useful vs Batterskulls, Blood Moons, or swords. Cabal Therapy is another great card, though it requires skill and knowledge to play well.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
4 master of etherium
4 etched champion
3 ornithopter
4 memnite
4 signal pest
4 frogmite
4 Thoughtcast
4 galvanic blast
4 cranial plating
3 mox opal
3 spring leaf drum
4 glimmervoid
4 seat of synod
4 great furnace
4 dark steel citadel
4 nature's claim
2 back to nature
2 pitching needle
4 mindbreak trap
2 relic of progenitus
1 tormod's crypt
Just playtested with soul sister, elves and gobs with 3 games with each player and won all 9 games per and post board.
Back to nature is for pesky enchantress which really a bad match up for me. The glimmervoid is to work around energy flux, null rod and stony silence. Darksteel citadel for tezz -1 ability that blocks all it can with out getting destroyed except for stp. Didn't go with white for dispatch because i feel etched champion and MoE already takes care of KotR match up.:D
:symw:Death and Taxes:symw:
:symr:Burn:symr:
Mono Black Control
I think 4 Mox/3 Drum is the configuration I'm most comfortable with. 4 Mox may be pushing it a bit without Arcbound Ravager, but it's a card you pretty much always want to see in your opener.
The Esper mana is a bit tricky to figure out in terms of fitting in Darksteel Citadel. The 4 Seat and 4 Vault are non-negotiable. Ancient Tomb is obviously ridiculous, although not being an artifact (then again, this isn't necessarily a bad thing!) and not being able to produce colored mana is a bit worrisome. Glimmervoid seems almost essential in some numbers in a 3 color build (I know the recent T16 list didn't play any.) The White isn't as crucial, so perhaps Ancient Den isn't strictly necessary at all?
A reasonable compromise for Esper could be something like:
2 Ancient Tomb
3 Glimmervoid
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Vault of Whispers
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
I'm only running 15 lands, which is why I have 4 of each. Like the Ancient Tombs, it helps make your draws more explosive, though perhaps hurting consistency. I could see cutting one Drum for a Glimmervoid.
To be quite honest, It's based on Mr. Turtenwald's list. I had to start somewhere, and it's very much subject to change.
Quad Relic is brought in against Goyf/Snapcaster/KotR decks, as you surmised. And I'm afraid enough of Dredge/Reanimator that I want 2 more zero-cost answers as well. The additional Tezzerets are for any kind of control match-up that can attrition you out, like UW Stoneforge, BUG, or Nic Fit. Spellskite is for any removal-heavy deck, especially those with the means to kill Plating. I agree that only having 1 isn't super great, but at the moment I don't know what I'd cut for a second. It's possible that it should just be something else instead of having only one. Dismember is for Stoneforge Mystic. That's pretty much it. I'd rather just kill the Mystic for one mana than try to kill Batterskull after the fact.
As mentioned, Dismember fills the same roll against Batterskull. If it's late enough for them to hard cast, I've already lost. Swords don't seem overly threatening, since most of our creatures are colorless and/or evasive.
Blood Moons don't seem too bad for us... Fun fact: Blood Moon doesn't take the Artifact supertype away from your lands! And you've still got Moxen and Drums to make blue and black.
What enchantments should I be worried about? I guess Stony Silence is a beating, but it's not like you can afford to leave your mana open in anticipation of it, so you're likely still screwed when it resolves.
Therapy does sound awfully good in a deck with zero-drop creatures, though it's best turn one and you can hardly rely on having black mana that turn. What match-ups would you recommend it for?
^^^
EDIT:
Listy. Currently testing -1 Mox -2 Drum -4 Ravager +3 Lotus Petal +4 Frogmite
4 Ornithopter
4 Signal Pest
4 Vault Skirge
4 Arcbound Ravager
4 Etched Champion
3 Master of Etherium
4 Mox Opal
2 Springleaf Drum
4 Cranial Plating
3 Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
4 Thoughtcast
3 Seat of the Synod
3 Vault of Whispers
4 Darksteel Citadel
3 Glimmervoid
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Disenchant
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pithing Needle
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Ravager sometimes feels like a dead card in hand strangely enough to me. He is the single most expensive thing in the deck that doesn't say "I win" on it (which is insane if you think about it). In the current meta, unlike when I was pioneering the deck, flying =/= unblockable. Vs Canadian and Team America, we actually need to be faster, so that is what has motivated me to testing a more explosive list by replacing Ravager with Frogmite and Drum with Petal. I haven't had an opportunity to test much yet though (student). I don't have any results to back up these ideas, mainly its just my musings on possibilities.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Let me ask you, is SFM + Batterskull still a valid option for this deck?
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
I have put some thought into that and I am forced to say likely not. I know it looks stupid on the face of it that "SFM dies to removal", but that's really what it is. Every deck can kill him easily, we have 0 ways to protect him, and then we have a batterskull stuck in our hand.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Haha I'm not fetching Batterskull everytime, likely Cranial Plating more oftan than not.
However just to be able to fetch Batterskull against a deck like Nic Fit perhaps?
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
EDIT - Also, Cabal Therapy is the bees knees against Stoneblade, especially after they resolve a SFM.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer