It's really good with all of our sideboard cards, too. I always beat the idea around, but I've never gotten around to testing it.
What are everyone's thoughts on running the Singleton Island with 6 Duals? I'm going to test it tonight. I think it's going to suck occasionally, but it might be worth it against the Wasteland decks, specifically the Mirror and Maverick. Being able to cast all the blue cards seems better than just losing to a timely Wasteland.
I'm on the island taiga plan right now. It's awkward sometimes, and it's game winning sometimes. I don't recommend running island without taiga; we don't want to make our 3rd land drop usually.
The reason I've heard for Taiga is to avoid getting Surgical'd off of a color, green or red, after a Wasteland. Once I heard about that, I think I was sold on the Taiga plan. I would probably also play an Island, just to have something to get after a Path, and also for a third land to fetch while still playing around Price of Progress to some extent (say, if I want to shuffle after a Brainstorm).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
Sandbot, Loam is primarily to break open the mirror, but it helps against any deck that wants to waste you out of the game, or that you want to waste out of the game. Waste lock is no joke.
Centucky, getting island there is still better than failing to find.
I'm still testing out the island, and I'll try out the taiga now too. My fear is that it's too inconsistent, but we'll see. With stifle back in itight not be necessary anymore, but it's worth testing. Worked for Eric Rill!
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I did the math a few nights ago. Given a 7 card hand, the odds of drawing a taiga and no other colored mana source is 0.3%. So it causes a mulligan about 1 out of 35 times. I think I'd rather have that than have wasteland/surgical be a blow-out in the mirror, but I'm definitely close.
Not sure on the math there Josh, but I'm no statistician so I won't bother trying to calc it myself. But even still, that figure doesn't account for the hands that contain Taiga with a lot of blue. Or Island, Trop, and burn. I think there are more than a few potential mulligans that an island/ taiga mana base will incur, not to mention situations where it's just preventing you from casting the perfect sequence of spells. Only testing can tell us that. We'll see. I like the idea though.
Sorry if this is lacking, but i dont remrmber quite everyhing lijely because i got drunk and laid at a party after the tourniment....
So I hit it off hard at a tourniment with my previously posted list. Tore apart CounterTop, EsperBlade, Nic Fit and Reanimator to go 4-0, then swept the Top 8. I had one bye. Is an odd number of rounds odd? I thought it was.
Game 1 I just started hitting him hard. He never really recovered from my epic opener, Delver, go, daze your Bitter, flip Delver, Pierce Liliana, drop a Goyf...
In 2 Grudge, out 2 Bolt.
Game 2 I basically did the same, except Mongoose was the beater and I drew both forked bolts which were huge against the successful Bitter
Round 2: Reanimator
Game 1 is crazy. He reanimates Griselbrand at 12 life vs my two Delvers. I block and bolt a Delver, he thinks long and hard and then activates. Stifle -> Daze -> Daze -> Force -> Force let's it resolve and I have a forked Bolt in hand. He had emptied his hand to stop Stiffle, and I think activating it was the wrong call but I'm not sure.
In 3 Cage out 3 Spell Snare
G2 was a close one, he opens with Entomb and I with cage which gets countered. I counter a Reanimate Dead and drop a 5/6 Goyf that beats him to death too quickly. He reanimates a Sphinx dropping him to 6, but I have two bolts and a daze to his Daze.
Round 3: Nic Fit
Game 1 I win on the raw insanity of 3 Stifles, 2 Lands, a Delver and a GSZ for Mongoose.
In 3 Cage, out 3 Snare
Game 2 I lose for the first time... I mull to 5 looking for anything and keep with a cage any no counters, but he has a pride age.
Game 3 was a tough grind, GSZ and Stifle being clutch to winning a 32 turn monster game. May be the longest game I have ever won with this deck. GSZ increasing threat density works (though not the reason for it), as I drew the GSZ 3 times. I saw one cage and a mongoose smashed by a Deed, but before he could do anything I dropped a second and then pondered into tripple Stiffle which I rode to victory, breaking a Deed, a hard-cast Sun Titan ETB trigger, and a Nightmare. That game was close as hell, i had to expand 4 Stifle, 3 Goyf, 2 Mongoose, 3 Bolt, 3 FoW, 2 Daze, 2 Cage, and 2 Delver, but I won in the end.
Round 4: CounterTop (Esper Terminus with Bob/Jace/Elspeth and ET)
I wish there was a record of these games because I don't remember them that well, but I lost the first and then took 2 to go 4-0. Played some seriously epic Magic g2 and g3, bringing in 3 REB and 2 Grudge over 3 Snare and 2 Forked Bolt. I pulled out every trick in the book my friend said, stifle being clutch, and won game 2 through a CB lock by casting GSZ for Goyf. GSZ for Mongoose got through twice in G3, so I think my GSZ tech vs CB is a success
Round of 8 was pretty funny. I faced Belcher, game 1 on the play I went draw, go, stifle you're belcher gg (he had no hand and only a belcher on the field, my Goyf killed him quickly). In 2 REB, 1 Grudge, out 3 Snare.
He just killed me turn 2.
He went off and hit me for 16, then j killed his belcher and he was sad.
Semifinals I raped affinity with Delver and Burn twice, though had to force a top decked Tezzeret. I brought in 2 Grudge over 1 Ponder and one GSZ. I figured that Ponder and GSZ were too slow. Game 2 I cast scour flipping Tezzeret and Champ into the gy which did wonders for my Goyf and my nervousness at being out of counterspell.
Finals was the mirror which is a tough but boring game wheee I simply out played the opp -3 Snare - 1 GSZ -1 Forked Bolt +3 REB +2 BEB
Sandbot, Loam is primarily to break open the mirror, but it helps against any deck that wants to waste you out of the game, or that you want to waste out of the game. Waste lock is no joke.
What decks, besides the Mirror, would that be?
I'm still a noob to the legacy metagame, thanks for the help!
Most decks in the control section that are on 3+ colors. Tempo mirrors especially; team america, grixis tempo, etc. Mostly it's there to beat decks that run 3+ colors and also run wastelands, and actively want to deny you resources. Those would be decks like Aggro Loam or the Rock, etc. Recurring wastelands are only amazing if they don't run many basics, so two colors decks mostly go out the window. It gets stronger the longer the games goes, and stronger the more your opponent wants to attack your manabase. Don't board it in for games that should be ending pretty promptly, because Loam is slow and negative tempo.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to DarkKnightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios for this awesome signature!
And specifically, the maverick match. It's not always right, but they are very capable of attacking our mana while stabilizing their own with mana dorks, and they do have quite a few specialty lands.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I don't bring Loam in vs. Maverick. It's too reactionary, and it's trying to fix a line of the game that we can't win anyway. When they are wasting us out, sometimes we'll lose. Better to maximize our chances against the hands we can win, rather than throwing good cards after bad.
It's a poor bring in vs maverick - their manabase isn't easily attacked with wastelands and bar double or triple waste you should be fine. You're the aggro deck, you really don't have time to play loam and get the full effect.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to DarkKnightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios for this awesome signature!
As I said, it's not always right but it's an option. The more specialty lands they add, the more useful Loam is. I don't usually bring it in against them either, but I might if I felt it was the right decision in a certain situation.
But yes, Loam is primarily for opposing delver decks, and the occasional BUG or Junk list. Just the mirror is enough to justify the single slot, and you can expect to see yourself at least once in nearly any major tournament Sadbot.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
How many copies of tarmogoyfs should RUG delver run? Am thinking 2 Tarmagoyf, 1 Snapcaster, 1 GSZ or just 3 tarmogoyf, 1 snapcaster will be better? Thanks.
I run 4. If its a card availability thing or whatever, I would try to run 3. I don't think a RUG list should have less than 3. Maybe 3 Goyf/1 Ooze, or 3 Goyf/1 Sylvan Library with 4/4 Delver/Mongoose.
I run 3 with a GSZ. I agree with dVo though, you don't want less then 3 for sure. 4 Delver and 4 Mongoose is a must. The problem is threat density. I would rather cut a spell for Library than a Goyf.
12 creatures is ideal, less than that is not enough. 3 Goyf and 1 GSZ or 1 Ooze is fine, I'm testing the Ooze right now and haven't hated it. I wouldn't run Library right now, since the meta is still pretty aggressive and it can cause redundancy with our spells. If control was more common, than I could see cutting a spell for a Library (I do love Sylvan), but right now I wouldn't. If I tap out on turn 2/3 for a permanent, it better be dealing damage to my opponent the turn after.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I was really happy to place third. I was close on the sideboard dismember slot. I wanted to play mind harness there, but I was hesitant to try the card out without much testing. In hindsight, I would have played the mind harness, but otherwise I was really happy with my deck for this tournament.
I was really happy to place third. I was close on the sideboard dismember slot. I wanted to play mind harness there, but I was hesitant to try the card out without much testing. In hindsight, I would have played the mind harness, but otherwise I was really happy with my deck for this tournament.
Congrats, though your sideboard is... Unusual. 2 Gilded Drake? How many S&T decks did you face! That's the real surprise, but Crypt, Ooze, and Dismember all made me pause.
Can you give a quick list of what you faced and how each match went? And a tournament report of course when you have time
Sneak and Show is a terrifying match. I feel like we're significantly behind, like 65/35. It's the only serious deck that i feel that way about. Pierces help, but they're running 6 hard counters and 5-6 conditional counters to our 4 hard counters and 8 conditional counters. I like their side of that a bunch more. I wanted something to trump each of their plans, but unfortunately there is no single card that does that. I feel like Drake shores up the most lines possible right now, so I went with that. If I can establish pressure early on, he has trouble playing the slower sneak-attack lines, and I can blow him out with Drake. There's also the surprise factor in the swiss.
If I could change my list before the tourny, I would make dismember mind-harness. Mind harness is the better card, but it has more narrow application (Maverick, the mirror, goblins, maybe elves). Dismember is the worse card, but it had wider application (Maverick, Mirror, tribes, affinity, MUD). I decided to play it safe and try to maximize application. In hindsight, the blow-out capability of mind harness was more important.
Crypts: Crypt is better vs. Dredge than Extraction (they overload our extractions with bloodghasts from the board, and we don't have snappys to recur extraction), and I felt that dredge might be heavily represented since it did well the last two weeks. One extraction comes in in the mirror, so I did a 2/1 split. I would've liked two extractions for esper blade, but I feel like that deck is dead right now, so I stuck with one.
The ooze was me trying to mitigate a bit. I wanted 4 graveyard hate, but I didn't want another crypt or extraction that might not even see play all day. So I put the ooze in, which I could bring in in a few more matches, particularly the mirror, burn, and UR delver.
Drake: All of the stuff I said above, and he also has application against reanimator. I really wanted to play the reanimator deck in the finals; I felt like I had a good chance at beating him with this deck.
Pyroblast, grudge, and submerge aren't a question. I would've liked 4 submerges and 3 pyroblasts, but there's only so much space.
I've been running a singleton board-wipe in the board for a long time, and I like it a lot. It shores up a bunch of the jankier matchups (goblins, elves, affinity, dredge, etc) for a pretty low cost. It also can be good vs. maverick.
I'll put up a report tomorrow, so tired. Here's a quick summary
Round 1: UR Stiflenaught, Standstill, Counter Balance homebrew. 2-1.
Round 2: Maverick 2-0.
Round 3: UR Delver 2-1
Round 4: Affinity 2-1.
Round 5: Maverick 2-0
Round 6: RUG (List, Feature match, available on SCGLive) 2-0.
I was really happy to place third. I was close on the sideboard dismember slot. I wanted to play mind harness there, but I was hesitant to try the card out without much testing. In hindsight, I would have played the mind harness, but otherwise I was really happy with my deck for this tournament.
The write-up of your semi-finals match has you playing a Force of Will in game two. Did you forget to board them out because you had a long day, or what?
I kept two in. I'm still playing with ideas for the mirror, but I've found I like the card in certain situations. Sometimes you just want to make sure your goyf/goose sticks, or that his doesn't. The advantage to being ahead on the board is often more than a card. We don't want to get flooded with FOW, but I've been happy keeping a few in.
Overheard one of the dude at my magic place complaining about how unfair RUG delver is in legacy and that they should ban delver rather than griselbrand. Blaming on our counters, stifles plus fast tempo. I couldn't help but laugh.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Thanks to DarkKnightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios for this awesome signature!
I'm on the island taiga plan right now. It's awkward sometimes, and it's game winning sometimes. I don't recommend running island without taiga; we don't want to make our 3rd land drop usually.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Why play one Life from the Loam in the sideboard? When are you bringing it in?
Thanks!
Centucky, getting island there is still better than failing to find.
I'm still testing out the island, and I'll try out the taiga now too. My fear is that it's too inconsistent, but we'll see. With stifle back in itight not be necessary anymore, but it's worth testing. Worked for Eric Rill!
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
So I hit it off hard at a tourniment with my previously posted list. Tore apart CounterTop, EsperBlade, Nic Fit and Reanimator to go 4-0, then swept the Top 8. I had one bye. Is an odd number of rounds odd? I thought it was.
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmagoyf
1 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
2 Thoughtscour
3 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Daze
3 Force of Will
2 Forked Bolt
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
3 Trop
3 Volcanic
1 Island
7 Fetches
3 REB
2 BEB
3 Submerge
2 Cursed Totem
3 Cage
2 Grudge
Round 1: EsperBlade (BW, splash for Jace and FoW)
Game 1 I just started hitting him hard. He never really recovered from my epic opener, Delver, go, daze your Bitter, flip Delver, Pierce Liliana, drop a Goyf...
In 2 Grudge, out 2 Bolt.
Game 2 I basically did the same, except Mongoose was the beater and I drew both forked bolts which were huge against the successful Bitter
Round 2: Reanimator
Game 1 is crazy. He reanimates Griselbrand at 12 life vs my two Delvers. I block and bolt a Delver, he thinks long and hard and then activates. Stifle -> Daze -> Daze -> Force -> Force let's it resolve and I have a forked Bolt in hand. He had emptied his hand to stop Stiffle, and I think activating it was the wrong call but I'm not sure.
In 3 Cage out 3 Spell Snare
G2 was a close one, he opens with Entomb and I with cage which gets countered. I counter a Reanimate Dead and drop a 5/6 Goyf that beats him to death too quickly. He reanimates a Sphinx dropping him to 6, but I have two bolts and a daze to his Daze.
Round 3: Nic Fit
Game 1 I win on the raw insanity of 3 Stifles, 2 Lands, a Delver and a GSZ for Mongoose.
In 3 Cage, out 3 Snare
Game 2 I lose for the first time... I mull to 5 looking for anything and keep with a cage any no counters, but he has a pride age.
Game 3 was a tough grind, GSZ and Stifle being clutch to winning a 32 turn monster game. May be the longest game I have ever won with this deck. GSZ increasing threat density works (though not the reason for it), as I drew the GSZ 3 times. I saw one cage and a mongoose smashed by a Deed, but before he could do anything I dropped a second and then pondered into tripple Stiffle which I rode to victory, breaking a Deed, a hard-cast Sun Titan ETB trigger, and a Nightmare. That game was close as hell, i had to expand 4 Stifle, 3 Goyf, 2 Mongoose, 3 Bolt, 3 FoW, 2 Daze, 2 Cage, and 2 Delver, but I won in the end.
Round 4: CounterTop (Esper Terminus with Bob/Jace/Elspeth and ET)
I wish there was a record of these games because I don't remember them that well, but I lost the first and then took 2 to go 4-0. Played some seriously epic Magic g2 and g3, bringing in 3 REB and 2 Grudge over 3 Snare and 2 Forked Bolt. I pulled out every trick in the book my friend said, stifle being clutch, and won game 2 through a CB lock by casting GSZ for Goyf. GSZ for Mongoose got through twice in G3, so I think my GSZ tech vs CB is a success
Round of 8 was pretty funny. I faced Belcher, game 1 on the play I went draw, go, stifle you're belcher gg (he had no hand and only a belcher on the field, my Goyf killed him quickly). In 2 REB, 1 Grudge, out 3 Snare.
He just killed me turn 2.
He went off and hit me for 16, then j killed his belcher and he was sad.
Semifinals I raped affinity with Delver and Burn twice, though had to force a top decked Tezzeret. I brought in 2 Grudge over 1 Ponder and one GSZ. I figured that Ponder and GSZ were too slow. Game 2 I cast scour flipping Tezzeret and Champ into the gy which did wonders for my Goyf and my nervousness at being out of counterspell.
Finals was the mirror which is a tough but boring game wheee I simply out played the opp -3 Snare - 1 GSZ -1 Forked Bolt +3 REB +2 BEB
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
What decks, besides the Mirror, would that be?
I'm still a noob to the legacy metagame, thanks for the help!
Thanks to DarkKnightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios for this awesome signature!
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Thanks to DarkKnightCavalier from Heroes of the Plane Studios for this awesome signature!
But yes, Loam is primarily for opposing delver decks, and the occasional BUG or Junk list. Just the mirror is enough to justify the single slot, and you can expect to see yourself at least once in nearly any major tournament Sadbot.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I was really happy to place third. I was close on the sideboard dismember slot. I wanted to play mind harness there, but I was hesitant to try the card out without much testing. In hindsight, I would have played the mind harness, but otherwise I was really happy with my deck for this tournament.
Congrats, though your sideboard is... Unusual. 2 Gilded Drake? How many S&T decks did you face! That's the real surprise, but Crypt, Ooze, and Dismember all made me pause.
Can you give a quick list of what you faced and how each match went? And a tournament report of course when you have time
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
Sneak and Show is a terrifying match. I feel like we're significantly behind, like 65/35. It's the only serious deck that i feel that way about. Pierces help, but they're running 6 hard counters and 5-6 conditional counters to our 4 hard counters and 8 conditional counters. I like their side of that a bunch more. I wanted something to trump each of their plans, but unfortunately there is no single card that does that. I feel like Drake shores up the most lines possible right now, so I went with that. If I can establish pressure early on, he has trouble playing the slower sneak-attack lines, and I can blow him out with Drake. There's also the surprise factor in the swiss.
If I could change my list before the tourny, I would make dismember mind-harness. Mind harness is the better card, but it has more narrow application (Maverick, the mirror, goblins, maybe elves). Dismember is the worse card, but it had wider application (Maverick, Mirror, tribes, affinity, MUD). I decided to play it safe and try to maximize application. In hindsight, the blow-out capability of mind harness was more important.
Crypts: Crypt is better vs. Dredge than Extraction (they overload our extractions with bloodghasts from the board, and we don't have snappys to recur extraction), and I felt that dredge might be heavily represented since it did well the last two weeks. One extraction comes in in the mirror, so I did a 2/1 split. I would've liked two extractions for esper blade, but I feel like that deck is dead right now, so I stuck with one.
The ooze was me trying to mitigate a bit. I wanted 4 graveyard hate, but I didn't want another crypt or extraction that might not even see play all day. So I put the ooze in, which I could bring in in a few more matches, particularly the mirror, burn, and UR delver.
Drake: All of the stuff I said above, and he also has application against reanimator. I really wanted to play the reanimator deck in the finals; I felt like I had a good chance at beating him with this deck.
Pyroblast, grudge, and submerge aren't a question. I would've liked 4 submerges and 3 pyroblasts, but there's only so much space.
I've been running a singleton board-wipe in the board for a long time, and I like it a lot. It shores up a bunch of the jankier matchups (goblins, elves, affinity, dredge, etc) for a pretty low cost. It also can be good vs. maverick.
I'll put up a report tomorrow, so tired. Here's a quick summary
Round 1: UR Stiflenaught, Standstill, Counter Balance homebrew. 2-1.
Round 2: Maverick 2-0.
Round 3: UR Delver 2-1
Round 4: Affinity 2-1.
Round 5: Maverick 2-0
Round 6: RUG (List, Feature match, available on SCGLive) 2-0.
Round 7: UR Dreadstill (List). 2-0.
Round 8: ID with Bant (List)
Round 9: ID with Reanimator (List)
I came into the top-8 in second position, which was great. Being on the play for at least 2 rounds, and very possibly 3, is great for RUG.
Quarterfinals: Sneak and show (List) 2-0.
Semi-Finals: Same opponent as round 5. He wins 2-0, I finish in 3rd place.
The write-up of your semi-finals match has you playing a Force of Will in game two. Did you forget to board them out because you had a long day, or what?