I've gotten a pretty good feel for when to hold mana up for stifle and when I need to build my board presence. Blind turn 1 Delver is a better play than holding stifle, while blind turn 1 mongoose is significantly worse. Once I hit my second land drop, I play my Mongoose. It's kind of a card you have to get a feel for, it's not something tangible. That's like all counters though really, hold mana or commit the mana for board presence.
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Stifle and wasteland can win games vs Show and Tell decks. If we can slow them down in the beginning we certainly can win. Stifle Griselbrands ability is also sick!!
With Show and Tell so strong maybe more Spell pierce main vs Spell Snare?
Stifle's worse than spell pierce vs Show and Tell. Stifling Griselbrand isn't going to be too relevant. Either he'll still have a 7/7 lifelink in play (show and tell), or he'll have gained 7 and just reactivate his ability after combat (sneak attack).
Stifle can stop the bleeding a little vs show and tell, but it's not really solving the problem. It delays the inevitable.
And Stifling the Annihilator trigger on Spaghetti-Monster still means you're eating 15 damage. You're not dealing with the threat, just delaying the inevitable as Joshua said. I'd much rather just win the counter war in the first place. Not to mention, Stifling their manabase isn't really that great. They run basics, and they also have Lotus petals, and even if you do Stifle them off mana for a bit, they will eventually just draw back into the game. You need hard counters to stop them, not mana disruption. They can go off on turn 2 with a Basic land and a Sol land. If you are holding only Spell Pierce, great. Stifle, you lose.
If I only expected to see Maverick, Stoneblade, and the Mirror, I could see the case for playing Stifle instead. But the reality is, there are a lot more decks out there that you will face in the early rounds of a tournament, and a lot of them don't give a hoot about Stifle. In the top 16 of Nashville, the following decks appearing in order of numbers:
So those "top 3" decks only made up about half of the metagame in the top tables. I'm sure the same could be estimated at the bottom tables. If Stifle is only an all-star in half my matches, but Spell Pierce is good in all of them, I'd rather run the card that's actually more versatile.
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Stifle let's you interact in ways Pierce and the rest of your deck do not, however. Pierce might be the more versatile card but Stifle adds versatility to your deck*
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Definitely true. I think stifle is really powerful. I'm just over the fence towards pierce/scour right now, but a small change in the meta could easily move me back.
4 Snare seems like a lot. I'm running 2 right now and still deciding whether I want the 3rd Snare or the 3rd Forked Bolt. 3 Snare seems like the right number though (similar to Daze in my opinion).
Caleb wrote a nice article on Tempo decks, and he talks a bit about how to play the RUG deck. Specifically he mentions Stifle, which is relevant to our discussion. (He's in the Stifle camp at the moment)
I'm with him on that one, I prefer Stifle. 2 Snares seems like too little, as it counters just so many cards. I don't think I'd want three over the course of a game, but I'm not sure if I'm prepared to cut one tbh. It might just be too good. Against aggro decks I don't want more than 1 Pierce (hits removal).
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Alright I'm testing pierce. Everything is 4x except for my two flex spots, I'm trying to decide what I want them to be.
Dismember vs Chain Lightning vs Forked Bolt? :/
Dismember:
Pro: Instant Speed! No, Seriously, sorcs are bad. Commitment of mana on your main phase is rough.
Finally, an answer to large creatures that we can run. Deals beautifully with Tombstalker, sometimes Kotr, some equipped stuff, etc.
It's fine to deal with blockers with this, deal with blocker -> attack for 3
Con: Lifeloss is relevant in a lot of situations.
Forked Bolt:
It's good against x/1's, which make up a fair section of the format. Pretty good against Mav when you want to go for their little dudes. What I don't really like is that it's often times the wrong play to let them have their manabug anyways, so unless you have it in hand it goes down in value if you draw it later after dealing with the x/1. It can create blowout situations though.
Chain Lightning
3 Damage is great for going to the dome, and it can kill x/3's (ooze after one, crusher, serra, etc)
It can get bounced back.. I could see that being maybe relevent vs sneak and show, burn, and occasionally UR Delver.
Edit: Now that I run Spierce.. I'm tempted to run 1-2 Scour over a Daze and/or Snare, but I'm not 100% sure yet.
Edit 2: I'm thinking of running 1 Scour and here's why: Getting hands with two is not something I ever want to happen, and the singleton is a great way to get value out of brainstorm without playing out a land.
Edit 3: Snare should probably stay in, because it hits such a wide portion of the format. I'd like some imput on Daze, though. This slot could also be removal # 3 instead of thought scour though.
And after both Eric Rill's performance last night and some playtesting against a Grixis Stifle build (similar to the one Caleb mentioned), I'm going to test Stifle this week. Squeezing in Stifle and a few Spell Pierces isn't going to be easy, but I'm starting to think Stifle is back in favor already.
Speaking of Eric's win last night, here is his Funky First Place List:
How are you guys beating Sneak & Show? My testing has shown this to be an unfavorable match, and I can't settle on a sideboard plan. Griselbrand's kind of a jerk.
How are you guys beating Sneak & Show? My testing has shown this to be an unfavorable match, and I can't settle on a sideboard plan. Griselbrand's kind of a jerk.
Counter their sneaks and shows, waste their city's and tombs, worst case stifle their sneaks and try to out race. I find it to be a very favorable match up, post board I get red elemantal blasts, I might even add gilded drake to the board if this deck remains popular.
Another realization about stifle vs pierce. Over the course of a long game, they get to draw more lands than you do, and you draw more spells. That's great until you find that Lands trade with your Dazes and Pierces.
So you guys think that this whole Pierce thing has just been a meta thing and Stifle has been over all better all along?
I have personally never thought about cutting stifle as I have never found it to be as bad as spell snare can sometimes be. And spell pierce is better than spell snare as it is all about protecting your creatures.
I just played a couple of games against the new miracle deck and I have quite some difficulty with the matchup goin 1-4 in games with me winning the preboard one and losing the 4 postboard games. This is a small sample size of course but have other people been having trouble with this matchup? For me the combination of terminus + swords + counterbalance + pierce/force/counterspell to protect it has made it very difficult to make any threat stick.
I'm really thinking of jamming 2 in the maindeck. I think it'll help vs Sneak and Show and Maverick. I'm going to be testing it today. I really don't want to be making my 3rd or 4th land drops (which clique encourages), but it is manageable since it has flash.
I'm really thinking of jamming 2 in the maindeck. I think it'll help vs Sneak and Show and Maverick. I'm going to be testing it today. I really don't want to be making my 3rd or 4th land drops (which clique encourages), but it is manageable since it has flash.
Cool, I run 2 in my main because I like having the extra threats in there plus the hand disruption. They've been great to me, but my local meta isn't really that competitive, so my experiences with them probably aren't the best to go by.
Let me know how the testing goes, I'm taking RUG to a decent sized legacy tournament soon and I'm trying to decide wether or not I should drop them for that tournament.
I didnt' get a chance to test them tonight. I suspect they'll be bad (too expensive and not as cool as snappy), but it's hard to theorize about cards sometimes. If they seem strong I'll post about it.
Illusivek, I'm currently testing Stifles out (4 of course). I still miss having the extra counterspells, but I think Stifle does help cover a lot of weaknesses. It's much swingier than Spell Pierce, but getting the free wins will probably prove to be useful this coming Sunday. It seems to be back in favor, but it still blows chunks against decks with a lot of basics. Anyway, I refuse to run less than 3 Spell Pierce main, so in order to keep my spell suite the way I like it, I cut Spell Snare. Spell Snare is still good, but it's way more conditional than Pierce or Stifle, and running less than 3 seems wrong (since you want it on turn 1 or 2). Right now, I think Snare isn't as great as it can be, as it's only truly relevant against Stoneforge Mystic and Maverick. Here's my spell suite as of now:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
1 Fire//Ice
1 Thought Scour
The 2nd Forked Bolt is the flex slot now, and could either be the 2nd Scour, another Fire/Ice, or the 4th Spell Pierce. While Thought Scour is good, I almost feel like the extra burn is more important. Cutting Snare but adding burn also works in the Maverick matchup, since I just let them resolve creatures and then Burn/Submerge/Harness them. Pierces and Dazes stay in for their removal/artifacts/library only.
Mikeageddon, I think Clique is too pricey for us right now. Maybe you could try a 1-of, but we don't hit 3 lands like the other blue decks do. The flier would be nice, but I think you'd be better served trying him out in Grixis Tempo. We're built to be streamlined, and 3-drops in the main are asking a lot. SB, we have better options. Also, people are prepared for X/1s right now like whoa. 3 mana to cycle a card isn't worth it. Clique is really good, but I agreed with Josh. Snapcaster is arguably better, and still proved a bit expensive to cast in my testing.
Capitacom, I've also found the U/W miracle deck to be relatively bad for us, maybe 40/60 in my testing. My roomate's build runs Stoneforge alongside the full set of Countertop, and 3 Terminus, 1 Entreat main. It's pretty bad for us. SB games, our best option is to run a lot of red (makes me want 4 Volcs) and resolve a Sulfuric Vortex. I really think that's the only way we win. Save your REBs for Counterbalance, and pray they don't hit all the answers too soon. It also helps when they actually do fetch into your Stifles, something my roomate is very careful about (he also drew a LOT of basics in testing). My hope is that most of the Control players won't expect Sulfuric Vortex, but he sides into 1-2 Disenchants and a BEB, so even if I resolve it I'm not guaranteed anything.
What are everyone's thoughts on running the Singleton Island with 6 Duals? I'm going to test it tonight. I think it's going to suck occasionally, but it might be worth it against the Wasteland decks, specifically the Mirror and Maverick. Being able to cast all the blue cards seems better than just losing to a timely Wasteland.
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With Show and Tell so strong maybe more Spell pierce main vs Spell Snare?
Stifle can stop the bleeding a little vs show and tell, but it's not really solving the problem. It delays the inevitable.
If I only expected to see Maverick, Stoneblade, and the Mirror, I could see the case for playing Stifle instead. But the reality is, there are a lot more decks out there that you will face in the early rounds of a tournament, and a lot of them don't give a hoot about Stifle. In the top 16 of Nashville, the following decks appearing in order of numbers:
Sneak/Show: 4
RUG: 3
Control: 2
Stoneblade: 2
Maverick: 2
Elves: 1
Reanimator: 1
Dredge: 1
So those "top 3" decks only made up about half of the metagame in the top tables. I'm sure the same could be estimated at the bottom tables. If Stifle is only an all-star in half my matches, but Spell Pierce is good in all of them, I'd rather run the card that's actually more versatile.
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What are you opinions on 4x Snare? I run the stifle build, but I've been considering changing 1 snare for 1 Pierce.
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Caleb wrote a nice article on Tempo decks, and he talks a bit about how to play the RUG deck. Specifically he mentions Stifle, which is relevant to our discussion. (He's in the Stifle camp at the moment)
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/legacy-weapon-the-perfect-stifle/
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RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
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RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
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His arguments for stifle seem also seem a lot better than all of the arguments Gerry Thompson made against it a while back.
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I run 3 Snare, Pierce, Daze, FoW and love it.
Edit: Testing -1 Goyf +1 GSZ has been quite good to me.
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Dismember vs Chain Lightning vs Forked Bolt? :/
Dismember:
Pro: Instant Speed! No, Seriously, sorcs are bad. Commitment of mana on your main phase is rough.
Finally, an answer to large creatures that we can run. Deals beautifully with Tombstalker, sometimes Kotr, some equipped stuff, etc.
It's fine to deal with blockers with this, deal with blocker -> attack for 3
Con: Lifeloss is relevant in a lot of situations.
Forked Bolt:
It's good against x/1's, which make up a fair section of the format. Pretty good against Mav when you want to go for their little dudes. What I don't really like is that it's often times the wrong play to let them have their manabug anyways, so unless you have it in hand it goes down in value if you draw it later after dealing with the x/1. It can create blowout situations though.
Chain Lightning
3 Damage is great for going to the dome, and it can kill x/3's (ooze after one, crusher, serra, etc)
It can get bounced back.. I could see that being maybe relevent vs sneak and show, burn, and occasionally UR Delver.
Edit: Now that I run Spierce.. I'm tempted to run 1-2 Scour over a Daze and/or Snare, but I'm not 100% sure yet.
Edit 2: I'm thinking of running 1 Scour and here's why: Getting hands with two is not something I ever want to happen, and the singleton is a great way to get value out of brainstorm without playing out a land.
Edit 3: Snare should probably stay in, because it hits such a wide portion of the format. I'd like some imput on Daze, though. This slot could also be removal # 3 instead of thought scour though.
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Speaking of Eric's win last night, here is his Funky First Place List:
4 Nimble Mongoose
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Fire / Ice
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle
4 Ponder
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Sulfur Elemental
1 Mind Harness
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Firespout
1 Life from the Loam
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Counter their sneaks and shows, waste their city's and tombs, worst case stifle their sneaks and try to out race. I find it to be a very favorable match up, post board I get red elemantal blasts, I might even add gilded drake to the board if this deck remains popular.
So you guys think that this whole Pierce thing has just been a meta thing and Stifle has been over all better all along?
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I just played a couple of games against the new miracle deck and I have quite some difficulty with the matchup goin 1-4 in games with me winning the preboard one and losing the 4 postboard games. This is a small sample size of course but have other people been having trouble with this matchup? For me the combination of terminus + swords + counterbalance + pierce/force/counterspell to protect it has made it very difficult to make any threat stick.
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Speaking of 3-drops, what do you think of Vendilion Clique? I haven't seen it in RUG for ages and it's in my top 10 for creatures.
Cool, I run 2 in my main because I like having the extra threats in there plus the hand disruption. They've been great to me, but my local meta isn't really that competitive, so my experiences with them probably aren't the best to go by.
Let me know how the testing goes, I'm taking RUG to a decent sized legacy tournament soon and I'm trying to decide wether or not I should drop them for that tournament.
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
1 Fire//Ice
1 Thought Scour
The 2nd Forked Bolt is the flex slot now, and could either be the 2nd Scour, another Fire/Ice, or the 4th Spell Pierce. While Thought Scour is good, I almost feel like the extra burn is more important. Cutting Snare but adding burn also works in the Maverick matchup, since I just let them resolve creatures and then Burn/Submerge/Harness them. Pierces and Dazes stay in for their removal/artifacts/library only.
Mikeageddon, I think Clique is too pricey for us right now. Maybe you could try a 1-of, but we don't hit 3 lands like the other blue decks do. The flier would be nice, but I think you'd be better served trying him out in Grixis Tempo. We're built to be streamlined, and 3-drops in the main are asking a lot. SB, we have better options. Also, people are prepared for X/1s right now like whoa. 3 mana to cycle a card isn't worth it. Clique is really good, but I agreed with Josh. Snapcaster is arguably better, and still proved a bit expensive to cast in my testing.
Capitacom, I've also found the U/W miracle deck to be relatively bad for us, maybe 40/60 in my testing. My roomate's build runs Stoneforge alongside the full set of Countertop, and 3 Terminus, 1 Entreat main. It's pretty bad for us. SB games, our best option is to run a lot of red (makes me want 4 Volcs) and resolve a Sulfuric Vortex. I really think that's the only way we win. Save your REBs for Counterbalance, and pray they don't hit all the answers too soon. It also helps when they actually do fetch into your Stifles, something my roomate is very careful about (he also drew a LOT of basics in testing). My hope is that most of the Control players won't expect Sulfuric Vortex, but he sides into 1-2 Disenchants and a BEB, so even if I resolve it I'm not guaranteed anything.
What are everyone's thoughts on running the Singleton Island with 6 Duals? I'm going to test it tonight. I think it's going to suck occasionally, but it might be worth it against the Wasteland decks, specifically the Mirror and Maverick. Being able to cast all the blue cards seems better than just losing to a timely Wasteland.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB