The other big advantage is that with white you get access to Wild Nacatl, Knight of the Reliquary, Path to Exile, Swords to Plowshares, Qasali Pridemage, Lightning Helix and Woolly Thoctar as well as even more sideboard options.
The deck is a bit less focused on burn and a bit more on creatures than a normal Goyf Sligh list. Zoo lists don't run Price of Progress or Fireblast as often.
You can probably do just fine with Wooded Foothills and Arid Mesa, most lists run 8-10 fetchlands from what I've seen, and I personally like nine fetchlands.
Horizon Canopy is just there for the occasional draw and it's cool interaction with Knight of the Reliquary.
Also, I have decided to switch back to Woolly Thoctar in RGW Zoo over Knight of the Reliquary. Using KotR, 'Goyf and Lavamancer makes the deck actually have problems with graveyard hate, since it makes the creatures either worthless or weak. Since I took out Knight I also took out Horizon Canopy for an Arid Mesa, since I don't like Canopy as much without KotR and would rather have more mana fixing.
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I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
The only reason I don't run woolly thoctar at the moment is because wasteland gives you problem with his 3 colors. I like him still though and would probably use him again.
I'm not entirely sure if the mana base is up to scratch, and I don't know what to use to replace Fireblast. I think I'll be missing those WTF opportunities when the opponent thinks you've expended everything, only to cop a lethal Fireblast to the head.
I have 4 Woolly Thoctar handy, but I get the feeling that I shouldn't put them all in, given its specific mana requirements.
I'd probably run 2 Woolly Thoctar over two of the Fireblasts. You don't really run out of gas as often in Zoo as you do in Burn/Sligh as more of your threats are permanents. The mana base has way too many lands, you don't need 24 lands, you need more like 19-21. You probably want to get a Savannah in there over one of the Mountains, then cut down 3-4 of them for other cards. Sylvan Library(no more than 2), Path To Exile, Swords to Plowshares, or other things listed in the primer.
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I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
I'd probably run 2 Woolly Thoctar over two of the Fireblasts. You don't really run out of gas as often in Zoo as you do in Burn/Sligh as more of your threats are permanents. The mana base has way too many lands, you don't need 24 lands, you need more like 19-21. You probably want to get a Savannah in there over one of the Mountains, then cut down 3-4 of them for other cards. Sylvan Library(no more than 2), Path To Exile, Swords to Plowshares, or other things listed in the primer.
Eeek! I didn't realise until now that I have 24 lands in the deck. My original Goyf Sligh had only 20 lands, and I (wrongly) assumed that the changes I made would not affect the land count.
I have considered dropping Kird Ape for Figure of Destiny, but I'm not big on the mana investment that Figure requires, maybe a 2/2 split of Figure and Ape would work, given that Ape is in most cases the creature I least like to see. The problem with Figure is that it isn't a good 1 drop, where as Kird Ape is at least an ok 1 drop. Figure can probably help the midgame of Zoo, but even then he won't be as big as Thoctar or Knight.
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I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
Meta full of wasteland could be bad if you use figs. That's why I don't use him. Although he can be a good mid-late game finisher.
Hrm. I don't know. When that's not the case FOD is almost always better, and when there are a ton of wastelands out there we're much less likely to be able to guarantee a forest for the ape, and we're going to have a lot of off-rhythm turns. When we do, the FOD is great.
I've been playtesting it some and I definitely prefer the FOD. I haven't run into a situation where I wished I had the Ape, and I've been paying close attention.
Otherwise I really like your maindeck list. The SB looks a little erratic though, could you explain some of your thinking? Specifically, 1 crypt/1 relic, and the 2 grips? It seems like we should go 2-0 with the relic/crypt, and what match are you using the grips? I haven't really had a reason to bring them in yet. I put them in against white stax, but didn't find them and still felt strong in the match. Went 2-0 and it seemed like he had strong hands. The ancient tombs make the match really good for us.
I usually SB them both, I like to split it up because of Needles. I don't really want to put all my eggs in one basket. I was also thinking of adding choke in my SB as a sub for chant and something else.
I usually SB them both, I like to split it up because of Needles. I don't really want to put all my eggs in one basket. I was also thinking of adding choke in my SB as a sub for chant and something else.
Have you looked at wheel of sun and moon as a needle-proof option? I don't know how it would work here, but it's an idea.
No I haven't really thought about it. Although you kinda need cards in your GY to make your goyf and Kotr big. So putting the cards back in your library wouldn't be a good decision.
It isn't for enchanting yourself, you enchant the Ichorid player and then they can't dredge anymore. It would work game 2 when they expect Crypt/Relic and board accordingly, but they'll likely bring in enchantment hate game 3 when they know you have it, which is hate they should already have in their board for Leyline of the Void. It could be good for a surprise in game 2, but it is a bit slower and no more consistent in game 3 as hate than Crypt/Relic.
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I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
What do you guys think of Exalted Angel here? It's an idea that occurred to me yesterday that I can't quite dismiss. She's expensive, but she wins if she drops. Very synergetic with the Sylvan Library, if we need it.
I've also been trying Goblin Guides in the Kird Ape slot. I think I like them better than both Kird Ape and Figure of Destiny. Haste helps a lot.
Tying up mana for 2-turns, requiring two white mana and being smaller than Tombstalker, 'Goyf and Thoctar is pretty much why I wouldn't run Exalted Angel. Lifelink is nice, but if you run Jitte and Lightning Helix than you already have some life gain without investing quite as many turns to make it work.
As far as Goblin Guide, I would rather not give CounterTop a free land which then can make their top card something which can actually counter our spells or they can use it for another top activation. Giving Landstill a quicker way to power out Wrath of God on turn three isn't good either.
Is haste really that big of a deal? The main reason I dislike Ape is is low power, not the fact that I can't attack with him fast enough. The reason I'm currently considering trying out Figure of Destiny as an Ape replacement is because its power can become higher than 2. That is the main reason I have some dislike Kird Ape, he can't attack into Mishra's Factory at any point in the game, which against Landstill you will be getting to the mid to late game, and Figure would be great there compared to Kird Ape and compared to Goblin Guide.
That said, I'm not sure I like Kird Ape, Goblin Guide, or Figure of Destiny, but I may try a 2/2 split of Kird Ape and Figure of Destiny or Goblin Guide and see which one I prefer, though I really wish we could get a Wild Nacatl in red.
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I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
Yea i'm in the same boat as you Grave. I'm not happy with any of the options for that slot. I do think Goblin Guide is better than the Kird Ape though. 2 damage can be alot in this match. It's a small consideration, but in the CB/Top match you were talking about, he also acts as a peek when they're tapped out.
I'm trying out steppe lynx in that slot. I'm not sure if it'll be cool or not. It has some definite synergy with the Knight, but it might be sitting there as an 0/2 some turns, which would blow. On the other hand, hitting for 4-5 on turn 2 is very nice.
Yeah, I have thought about Steppe Lynx, the problem is that if you don't have a fetchland to play and crack that turn you just have a Kird Ape that loses its power and toughness on the defense. It may be worth using, it might not be, its just another one of those mediocre one drops competing for the Kird Ape slot.
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I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
MTG Rules Advisor
I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
I played the deck in a 59 player tourney yesterday. But had a pretty bad standing after 6 rounds (2-4)
I lost to ad nauseam storm, progen bant, goblins and elves.
I won against BG rock and dream halls combo.
I was expecting a heavy infested rock , counter top and ichorid meta. Unfortunately I was wrong.
Is fireblast and price of progress really needed in the deck? Against my match up price of progress was not really needed. I was having 2nd thoughts of running fireblast because it seems my mountains would not be enough to support it.
Against progen bant I should have won game two! (He was down to 3 life but sadly I got mana flooded for the next 5 turns!!)
It is just frustrating to do nothing against Ad nauseam storm! I mulled to hate but It got discarded via thoughtseize!
I was expecting to have a good MU against Goblins and elves but their card draw engine was just too much for me to handle! I know I should have put some volcanic fallout in my SB.
Below is my deck list . Any comments or suggestions will be helpful for I’m planning to play it again in next legacy tourney.
Lands
4 wooded foothills
4 arid mesa
2 windswept heath
2 horizon canopy
2 plateau
3 taiga
1 savannah
1 forest
1 plains
1 mountain
Creatures
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridemage
4 kird ape
4 wild nacatl
4 grim lavamancer
2 knight of the reliquary
The deck is a bit less focused on burn and a bit more on creatures than a normal Goyf Sligh list. Zoo lists don't run Price of Progress or Fireblast as often.
You can probably do just fine with Wooded Foothills and Arid Mesa, most lists run 8-10 fetchlands from what I've seen, and I personally like nine fetchlands.
Horizon Canopy is just there for the occasional draw and it's cool interaction with Knight of the Reliquary.
Also, I have decided to switch back to Woolly Thoctar in RGW Zoo over Knight of the Reliquary. Using KotR, 'Goyf and Lavamancer makes the deck actually have problems with graveyard hate, since it makes the creatures either worthless or weak. Since I took out Knight I also took out Horizon Canopy for an Arid Mesa, since I don't like Canopy as much without KotR and would rather have more mana fixing.
I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
2 Forest
1 Plains
3 Plateau
4 Taiga
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Fireblast
I'm not entirely sure if the mana base is up to scratch, and I don't know what to use to replace Fireblast. I think I'll be missing those WTF opportunities when the opponent thinks you've expended everything, only to cop a lethal Fireblast to the head.
I have 4 Woolly Thoctar handy, but I get the feeling that I shouldn't put them all in, given its specific mana requirements.
U Merfolk
UGW Bant
BGW Rock
WUB Stoneblade
RGW Zoo
I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
Eeek! I didn't realise until now that I have 24 lands in the deck. My original Goyf Sligh had only 20 lands, and I (wrongly) assumed that the changes I made would not affect the land count.
I haven't figured out that part yet :S I play Legacy casually (a bit of an oxymoron here), so I don't usually have a SB handy.
U Merfolk
UGW Bant
BGW Rock
WUB Stoneblade
RGW Zoo
I really like this list. I'm like 12-2 with it today on MWS.
What's your opinion on replacing the Kird Apes with Figure of Destiny or Kitchen Finks?
Figure of Destiny is a much better choice than Kitchen Finks. The Finks are not an aggro creature, 3 mana for something with only 3 power is way too small when you can play Knight of the Reliquary or Woolly Thoctar and get around 5 power for 3 mana.
I have considered dropping Kird Ape for Figure of Destiny, but I'm not big on the mana investment that Figure requires, maybe a 2/2 split of Figure and Ape would work, given that Ape is in most cases the creature I least like to see. The problem with Figure is that it isn't a good 1 drop, where as Kird Ape is at least an ok 1 drop. Figure can probably help the midgame of Zoo, but even then he won't be as big as Thoctar or Knight.
I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
Hrm. I don't know. When that's not the case FOD is almost always better, and when there are a ton of wastelands out there we're much less likely to be able to guarantee a forest for the ape, and we're going to have a lot of off-rhythm turns. When we do, the FOD is great.
I've been playtesting it some and I definitely prefer the FOD. I haven't run into a situation where I wished I had the Ape, and I've been paying close attention.
Otherwise I really like your maindeck list. The SB looks a little erratic though, could you explain some of your thinking? Specifically, 1 crypt/1 relic, and the 2 grips? It seems like we should go 2-0 with the relic/crypt, and what match are you using the grips? I haven't really had a reason to bring them in yet. I put them in against white stax, but didn't find them and still felt strong in the match. Went 2-0 and it seemed like he had strong hands. The ancient tombs make the match really good for us.
Have you looked at wheel of sun and moon as a needle-proof option? I don't know how it would work here, but it's an idea.
I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
I've also been trying Goblin Guides in the Kird Ape slot. I think I like them better than both Kird Ape and Figure of Destiny. Haste helps a lot.
Well a 2/2 haste is always good. Although the setback is bad for this format. Card advantage can be ridiculous sometimes.
As far as Goblin Guide, I would rather not give CounterTop a free land which then can make their top card something which can actually counter our spells or they can use it for another top activation. Giving Landstill a quicker way to power out Wrath of God on turn three isn't good either.
Is haste really that big of a deal? The main reason I dislike Ape is is low power, not the fact that I can't attack with him fast enough. The reason I'm currently considering trying out Figure of Destiny as an Ape replacement is because its power can become higher than 2. That is the main reason I have some dislike Kird Ape, he can't attack into Mishra's Factory at any point in the game, which against Landstill you will be getting to the mid to late game, and Figure would be great there compared to Kird Ape and compared to Goblin Guide.
That said, I'm not sure I like Kird Ape, Goblin Guide, or Figure of Destiny, but I may try a 2/2 split of Kird Ape and Figure of Destiny or Goblin Guide and see which one I prefer, though I really wish we could get a Wild Nacatl in red.
I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
2 Forest
1 Plains
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
4 Taiga
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
2 Woolly Thoctar
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
2 Fireblast
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 ?
I didn't see any harm in slipping in Umezawa's Jitte, but what should I do for the last two cards?
U Merfolk
UGW Bant
BGW Rock
WUB Stoneblade
RGW Zoo
You may also want to do -1 Land, +1 Windswept Heath or -X Arid Mesa, +X Windswept Heath, as being able to fetch a basic forest early on is necessary to not lose to Blood Moon after you get Krosan Grip from the board. Even before you get Krosan Grip, it enables you to play Tarmogoyf.
I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
I lost to ad nauseam storm, progen bant, goblins and elves.
I won against BG rock and dream halls combo.
I was expecting a heavy infested rock , counter top and ichorid meta. Unfortunately I was wrong.
Is fireblast and price of progress really needed in the deck? Against my match up price of progress was not really needed. I was having 2nd thoughts of running fireblast because it seems my mountains would not be enough to support it.
Against progen bant I should have won game two! (He was down to 3 life but sadly I got mana flooded for the next 5 turns!!)
It is just frustrating to do nothing against Ad nauseam storm! I mulled to hate but It got discarded via thoughtseize!
I was expecting to have a good MU against Goblins and elves but their card draw engine was just too much for me to handle! I know I should have put some volcanic fallout in my SB.
Below is my deck list . Any comments or suggestions will be helpful for I’m planning to play it again in next legacy tourney.
Lands
4 wooded foothills
4 arid mesa
2 windswept heath
2 horizon canopy
2 plateau
3 taiga
1 savannah
1 forest
1 plains
1 mountain
Creatures
4 tarmogoyf
4 qasali pridemage
4 kird ape
4 wild nacatl
4 grim lavamancer
2 knight of the reliquary
Instant
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
4 path to exile
Sorcery
2 chain lightning
Artifact
1 umezawa's jitte
Enchantment
sylvan library
Sideboard
4 pyroblast
1 relic of progenitus
3 Tormod's crypt
1 Gaddock teeg
2 Krosan grip
3 ethersworn canonist
1 umezawa's jitte
Modern: Melira Pod, UR Twin Exarch, Living end