That is true if you are in that particular situation. But that situation often has nothing to do with what I'm saying, which is that sometimes you want to kill their Goyfs with spells, and that Chain hinders this more than Helix does in certain situations.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
I haven't played Legacy for a long while, i.e. 6 or 7 months, and I was wondering... which version of Zoo would be best to take to an unknown metagame?
When I last played at my LGS, it was a mixture of various competitive decks with no bias towards any strategy in particular. There was definitely combo, some CounterTop/other blue control decks, other aggro (Tribal and Zoo), and the occasional Rogue deck. It's been so long that I'm not sure how its changed since then, but I can imagine I'll see a fair amount of Legacy's best decks.
Basically, what I'm asking is that if you were taking Zoo to such a meta, which would you use? Small Zoo (i.e. Kird Ape and friends) or Big Zoo?
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Current Decks
Legacy: :symu::symb: Reanimator + :symu::symr::xmana: Sneak and Show + :symb::symr::symg: Punishing Jund Modern: :symu::symb::symr: Reanimator + :symr::symg: Tron + :symu::symr: Twin
I haven't played Legacy for a long while, i.e. 6 or 7 months, and I was wondering... which version of Zoo would be best to take to an unknown metagame?
When I last played at my LGS, it was a mixture of various competitive decks with no bias towards any strategy in particular. There was definitely combo, some CounterTop/other blue control decks, other aggro (Tribal and Zoo), and the occasional Rogue deck. It's been so long that I'm not sure how its changed since then, but I can imagine I'll see a fair amount of Legacy's best decks.
Basically, what I'm asking is that if you were taking Zoo to such a meta, which would you use? Small Zoo (i.e. Kird Ape and friends) or Big Zoo?
Small Zoo is slightly favored against combo but Big Zoo is favored against Tempo. That's about all I can say if its a completely unknown meta.
Is Bant hard for Zoo to beat? I just lost with NO Bant to Zoo a couple of days ago, but it also involved some terrible draws for me. That build specifically has a hard time keeping a green creature on the board to sacrifice to Natural Order, but if it can do so there isn't much Zoo can do about a Progenitus.
So, I'm not sure if you're talking about that build, or a NO Show build, or a creature and equipment based one. I feel like the creature/equipment build shouldn't be terribly difficult to beat since Zoo is the most efficient creature-based deck in Legacy, and Bant is sacrificing creature efficiency in order to have game against combo in the form of counterspells. Zoo generally doesn't care about counterspells because it's so redundant.
If you're talking about more "unfair" Bant lists, then Zoo might have more troubles. Teeg can come in to stop Natural Order from resolving, but he doesn't answer Show and Tell. Your best bet there is to be able to drop a Knight and search up a Karakas to send their Emrakul back to their hand.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
Bad. Mental Misstep is just a one-for-one, and not better against combo than Teeg and Mindbreak Trap. Beast Within is worse, because it's a one-for-none. You spend a card, they lose a card and get a 3/3. Plus, giving them dudes is about the worst anti-aggro move possible.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
thanks dmel, have u tested mental misstep yet? ive been testing with and kinda like it so far, it is great against burn, no bant, and dredge(after sideboard)
I've tested it in other decks but haven't tried it in Zoo yet. It does totally hurt Dredge, I'll give you that, but if you're sideboarding you can do much more terrible things to them, like remove their entire graveyard for 0 mana. I don't see it being that good against burn since it'll always cost you 2 life, which is what they want to do to you.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
well give me about till NPH comes out and ill give you a list and you can tell me what you think. plus i am greatful at least you are talking on this , because no else is, and you your opinion means something means something. all to dmel. no else. seriously.
In my Zoo list Ive been tinkering with my 2 extra burn slots, and Ive decided to SB the Price of Progress for 2 Browbeat, My reasoing being it helps my list hit sorcery for Goyf and the ability to draw 3 is really dangerous and I would be more than happy to hit them in the face for 5 on turn 4 after I have been pressuring them.
Has this been tried before? Is it any good, If it hasn't what are your thoughts?
P.S. I play 2 Chain Lightning 1 Green Sun Zenith in my list so its nice to have 4 chances at getting a sorcery into the bin.
In my Zoo list Ive been tinkering with my 2 extra burn slots, and Ive decided to SB the Price of Progress for 2 Browbeat, My reasoing being it helps my list hit sorcery for Goyf and the ability to draw 3 is really dangerous and I would be more than happy to hit them in the face for 5 on turn 4 after I have been pressuring them.
Has this been tried before? Is it any good, If it hasn't what are your thoughts?
P.S. I play 2 Chain Lightning 1 Green Sun Zenith in my list so its nice to have 4 chances at getting a sorcery into the bin.
unless zenith gets countered it does not hit the graveyard
i wouldn't play browbeat, for 3 mana you can do much better in red
Shouldn't Green Sun's Zenith be added to the Card Choices?
I've seen it in quite some winning lists on the internet.
Yeah, I haven't exactly been active in updating since the release of SOM. After the meta has some time to settle down from whatever Mental Misstep and the rest of NPH does I will update the primer with MBS and NPH cards.
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I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
Dyne has it right, there's absolutely no reason not to just play the other 2 Chain Lightnings. Beyond that, I'd play Lightning Helix before I played Browbeat.
Don't get me wrong, I love browbeat . . . but it's just not good enough for this deck. At 3 mana in this deck, I want Knight of the Reliquary level impact on the game, not Lava Axe.
i have a difficulty in playing vs CB Deck especially with Thopter/CB Planeswalker.. how do you handle it via 1st game. i have SB of 3 Grips + 2 Pithing Needle
Browbeat never see's competitive play because it gives the opponent the choice. Sure if it said choose one-draw 3 cards or deal 5 to target player sure it would be great.
GSZ shuffles in unless it's countered. Just run chain lightning's; they are good enough and 2nd only to bolt.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Browbeat really shouldn't ever be considered for a Zoo deck. It works in Burn because every card does the same thing -- either they take 5 damage or Browbeat draws you 5+ points of burn. If you play Zoo, your deck actually does multiple things. You generally want to draw the right mix of creatures and direct damage, and, since your opponent chooses what Browbeat does, you cannot count on it for either.
Merged the "Zoo Burn: Next Level or Bad Judgment?" with the Zoo thread.
If you have deck questions, please keep them to the appropriate deck thread. General is not for discussing your particular tweak. That's what deck threads are for.
well give me about till NPH comes out and ill give you a list and you can tell me what you think. plus i am greatful at least you are talking on this , because no else is, and you your opinion means something means something. all to dmel. no else. seriously.
Haha, thanks! I do what I can. All ideas should be taken seriously at least to some extent, so no problem there. How's that list coming? I'm brewing a new one of my own but it's not super-duper original, so I may post it later but not just yet.
And... Browbeat? Not sure where all that came from, but no thanks! Lol. No, seriously, it's bad for the reasons people have pointed out. Seriously, I'd rather have Tezz's Gambit, but over that I'd obviously rather have Price, Fireblast, Chain Lightning or Lightning Helix. Or hell, even the 5/4 guy or a Terravore.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
2 Arid Mesa
1 Forest
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Kird Ape
2 Loam Lion
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Ranger of Eos
3 Ethersworn Cannonist
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Sword of Body and Mind
When I last played at my LGS, it was a mixture of various competitive decks with no bias towards any strategy in particular. There was definitely combo, some CounterTop/other blue control decks, other aggro (Tribal and Zoo), and the occasional Rogue deck. It's been so long that I'm not sure how its changed since then, but I can imagine I'll see a fair amount of Legacy's best decks.
Basically, what I'm asking is that if you were taking Zoo to such a meta, which would you use? Small Zoo (i.e. Kird Ape and friends) or Big Zoo?
Modern: :symu::symb::symr: Reanimator + :symr::symg: Tron + :symu::symr: Twin
Small Zoo is slightly favored against combo but Big Zoo is favored against Tempo. That's about all I can say if its a completely unknown meta.
And Elspeth isn't worth it anymore, I'm guessing?
Modern: :symu::symb::symr: Reanimator + :symr::symg: Tron + :symu::symr: Twin
Standard: RUG Humans
Modern: Delver RUG
*Legacy: Zoo
So, I'm not sure if you're talking about that build, or a NO Show build, or a creature and equipment based one. I feel like the creature/equipment build shouldn't be terribly difficult to beat since Zoo is the most efficient creature-based deck in Legacy, and Bant is sacrificing creature efficiency in order to have game against combo in the form of counterspells. Zoo generally doesn't care about counterspells because it's so redundant.
If you're talking about more "unfair" Bant lists, then Zoo might have more troubles. Teeg can come in to stop Natural Order from resolving, but he doesn't answer Show and Tell. Your best bet there is to be able to drop a Knight and search up a Karakas to send their Emrakul back to their hand.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Standard: RUG Humans
Modern: Delver RUG
*Legacy: Zoo
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Standard: RUG Humans
Modern: Delver RUG
*Legacy: Zoo
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Standard: RUG Humans
Modern: Delver RUG
*Legacy: Zoo
What are you cutting to make room for Mental Misstep? I can almost guarantee that I'd rather have whatever you're cutting than MM in that matchup.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Standard: RUG Humans
Modern: Delver RUG
*Legacy: Zoo
Has this been tried before? Is it any good, If it hasn't what are your thoughts?
P.S. I play 2 Chain Lightning 1 Green Sun Zenith in my list so its nice to have 4 chances at getting a sorcery into the bin.
RUg Wave Ramp (34-3-0)
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
unless zenith gets countered it does not hit the graveyard
i wouldn't play browbeat, for 3 mana you can do much better in red
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=10800035#post10800035
Yeah, I haven't exactly been active in updating since the release of SOM. After the meta has some time to settle down from whatever Mental Misstep and the rest of NPH does I will update the primer with MBS and NPH cards.
I currently play only two formats, what I play in them is:
Legacy: Domain Zoo, RGW Zoo, Merfolk, Solidarity, Mono Black Aggro
EDH: Kagemaro, First to Suffer
Don't get me wrong, I love browbeat . . . but it's just not good enough for this deck. At 3 mana in this deck, I want Knight of the Reliquary level impact on the game, not Lava Axe.
My MTGSalvation Cube Page (not always up to date, but sweet pics of my alters)
GSZ shuffles in unless it's countered. Just run chain lightning's; they are good enough and 2nd only to bolt.
Currently Playing:
Retired
If you have deck questions, please keep them to the appropriate deck thread. General is not for discussing your particular tweak. That's what deck threads are for.
Thanks.
(Siggy adapted, DarkHunter1357 (deviantART))
Haha, thanks! I do what I can. All ideas should be taken seriously at least to some extent, so no problem there. How's that list coming? I'm brewing a new one of my own but it's not super-duper original, so I may post it later but not just yet.
And... Browbeat? Not sure where all that came from, but no thanks! Lol. No, seriously, it's bad for the reasons people have pointed out. Seriously, I'd rather have Tezz's Gambit, but over that I'd obviously rather have Price, Fireblast, Chain Lightning or Lightning Helix. Or hell, even the 5/4 guy or a Terravore.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson