Lots of Atarka's Command going on, and two Thalia seem rather random and half-hearted. Obviously quite aggressive though, with 16 2+ power for 1 creatures. I think you'd practically need this swarm idea to effectively run Atarka's Command. It makes me wonder if Young Pyromancer or Monastery Mentor (or both), along with Atarka's Command and a heavier Burn build could be viable.
Interesting... and funny...
For years I kept asking zoo players why are they not running Goblin Guide. It's nice to see it being played.
I'm not sure if MTGO has all the legacy cards as the paper format...
I do agree a little heavier on the burn and young pyromancer could make zoo awesome...
I do think the major issue on zoo is the cost of dual lands and not playing consistent draws. I really think in this case cost does move players away from building the deck.
i'm gonna defend vexing devil a little bit. yes i understand if he was good we would see him in competitive decks. 1 mana for 4 damage or 1 mana for a 4/3 is amazing and if the opponent does have an answer, i say go ahead that means he leaves other threats alone. i dont own Eidolon however would Pyrostatic Pillar work? its the same thing only its an enchamtnent and is less mana intensive
All seriously I love Vexing Devil, and I prefer to play him over the swiftspear in my burn deck. The devil is awesome in burn! But he doesnt get played in burn because most players see the card as a browbeat type and don't trust it. (Although, if browbeat was 2cc (not 3cc) the card would be a major burn staple!) The key is mana cost. Having said that - yes you are correct that the devil is awesome at both ways cost and choices.
The problem is the browbeat stigmata that lingers over the devils head. (but I think it's a false argument because 3cc is just too high of a cost for a card that gives you 3 cards in a burn deck) So I don't bother wasting my time in defending vexing devil. Payers are not going to play vexing devil because they don't trust the card (no matter how you dress it, it will come down to this one point). I personally believe they just don't trust there deck... because the card is more then an opponent choice. The dirty secret is the opponent don't have much of a choice and 90% of the time the devil is going to be a creature! and 1cc for a 4/3 creature is not bad! The reason (in burn is damage math... maybe I can explain more on this later)
In zoo Vexing Devil could act as a goyf budget card.
What makes Eidolon better then Pyrostatic Pillar is the legs. I'd used to play Pyrostatic Pillar in my old type 1 deck but hatted the card because it don't attack. Because of Eidolon I'm leaning towards building a type 1 burn deck
i understand if he was good we would see him in competitive decks
This pretty much invalidates any other argument in terms of competitive play. As I said above, play whatever you want to have fun. The requirements change when tuning a deck to compete with other optimized decks. Devil simply does not meet those requirements.
It's not as if other players don't know about Devil. It's not as if it hasn't been extensively debated and playtested. The reason it's not used is lack of efficacy, not lack of trust. Competitive players don't care about trust: they care about decks that perform consistently well throughout playtesting and competitive play, built with cards that do the same.
Trust is not an issue after extensive experience with hundreds of players across thousands of games. Trust is not an issue when you have hard evidence to remove a card from the pool of potentially viable cards. Furthermore, to put the issue on the player is ad hominem. The problem isn't with the player that won't use a bad card: it's with the bad card itself.
P.S. Hooting Mandrills is actually the budget goyf for reasons of color, graveyard dependence, and bolt-proof butt.
I came up with trust but it doesnt matter - I don't think it's really worth pushing because I know most players cannot get past browbeat. I do enjoy slapping a Vexing Devil on the table and my opponent saying 'oh ~snip~!'
Yeah, I noticed Hooting Mandrills, although, I think it would be a better creature in zoo if the player has more disposable cards (cards going in the graveyard). This is where I think your right on adding more burn spells
I do think the major issue on zoo is the cost of dual lands and not playing consistent draws. I really think in this case cost does move players away from building the deck.
I'm not sure I understand, but the duals in Zoo are three of the cheapest duals in all of Legacy (Taiga, Savannah, and Plateau). I'm pretty sure cost is not why people don't play Zoo. They don't play Zoo because emptying your hand and running into a Terminus/Supreme Verdict/Toxic Deluge is a pretty bad strategy.
Right. Which is why I play zoo in modern. Dwchang, who mind you I <3 as my zoo buddy on the legacy side is totally right. Miracles just was the last nail in zoos coffin. But I honestly dont think its quite as bad for zoo as it used to be. Atarkas command, ghor-clan, stuff like that have given zoo way more "ohmp" then its had in a long time, making rush, actually something that could work out. But I think theres still probably a little more luck involved than there should be. you have to spit and pray that theirs no way for them to interact easy.
Bushwhacker doesn't seem to be good enough, but YMMV. By the way, the Zoo thread on the source has seem some recent love, but they were taking the deck in what I'd call an odd direction: trying to get card advantage with things like Bloodbraid Elf. Anyway, give it a look if you're interested.
Interesting... and funny...
For years I kept asking zoo players why are they not running Goblin Guide. It's nice to see it being played.
I'm not sure if MTGO has all the legacy cards as the paper format...
I do agree a little heavier on the burn and young pyromancer could make zoo awesome...
I do think the major issue on zoo is the cost of dual lands and not playing consistent draws. I really think in this case cost does move players away from building the deck.
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
All seriously I love Vexing Devil, and I prefer to play him over the swiftspear in my burn deck. The devil is awesome in burn! But he doesnt get played in burn because most players see the card as a browbeat type and don't trust it. (Although, if browbeat was 2cc (not 3cc) the card would be a major burn staple!) The key is mana cost. Having said that - yes you are correct that the devil is awesome at both ways cost and choices.
The problem is the browbeat stigmata that lingers over the devils head. (but I think it's a false argument because 3cc is just too high of a cost for a card that gives you 3 cards in a burn deck) So I don't bother wasting my time in defending vexing devil. Payers are not going to play vexing devil because they don't trust the card (no matter how you dress it, it will come down to this one point). I personally believe they just don't trust there deck... because the card is more then an opponent choice. The dirty secret is the opponent don't have much of a choice and 90% of the time the devil is going to be a creature! and 1cc for a 4/3 creature is not bad! The reason (in burn is damage math... maybe I can explain more on this later)
In zoo Vexing Devil could act as a goyf budget card.
What makes Eidolon better then Pyrostatic Pillar is the legs. I'd used to play Pyrostatic Pillar in my old type 1 deck but hatted the card because it don't attack. Because of Eidolon I'm leaning towards building a type 1 burn deck
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
This pretty much invalidates any other argument in terms of competitive play. As I said above, play whatever you want to have fun. The requirements change when tuning a deck to compete with other optimized decks. Devil simply does not meet those requirements.
It's not as if other players don't know about Devil. It's not as if it hasn't been extensively debated and playtested. The reason it's not used is lack of efficacy, not lack of trust. Competitive players don't care about trust: they care about decks that perform consistently well throughout playtesting and competitive play, built with cards that do the same.
Trust is not an issue after extensive experience with hundreds of players across thousands of games. Trust is not an issue when you have hard evidence to remove a card from the pool of potentially viable cards. Furthermore, to put the issue on the player is ad hominem. The problem isn't with the player that won't use a bad card: it's with the bad card itself.
P.S. Hooting Mandrills is actually the budget goyf for reasons of color, graveyard dependence, and bolt-proof butt.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Yeah, I noticed Hooting Mandrills, although, I think it would be a better creature in zoo if the player has more disposable cards (cards going in the graveyard). This is where I think your right on adding more burn spells
In his Second 100 days - Yawgmoth's Bargain is unrestricted in Vintage.
What is going to happen in the Next 100 days!!!
allowrequire us to call the deck Hooting and Looting.2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I'm not sure I understand, but the duals in Zoo are three of the cheapest duals in all of Legacy (Taiga, Savannah, and Plateau). I'm pretty sure cost is not why people don't play Zoo. They don't play Zoo because emptying your hand and running into a Terminus/Supreme Verdict/Toxic Deluge is a pretty bad strategy.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
4x nacatl
3x kird ape
3x loam lion
4x pridemage
2x lavamancer
3x ghor-clan
4x tarmo
4x goblin guide
4x lightning bolt
4x chain lightning
2x ataraka command
3x path
1x sylvian library
1x savannah
1x tiaga
1x plateau
1x stomping ground
1x sacred foundry
3x heath
4x foothills
2x mesa
1x mountain
1x plains
1x forest
2x horizon canopy