Right. I figured that. Combo and stuff, with its good matchups becoming bad. I'm aware of that. Add to punishing fire, and its gross.
But I saw some people have success with gruuler zoo on here and in a few dailies.
Unfortunately it has not led to success at any tournament I would classify as "big" or "big enough." But yes, if I am going to play an "aggro" or non-blue deck I'll play Jund since it won't fold to Control (but will fold to Combo).
I've tested so many iterations of this deck and nothing worked. Thalias mainboard to deal with combo (made my spells janky), Green Sun's package for hatebears (not fast enough anymore), go all out (lose to mass removal), etc. Zoo basically needs either something to deal with Terminus and mass removal or something to speed it up *considerably*.
Obviously no one actually gives a ***** about Zoo, but I have 3-1'd both times I have played this list at locals. My losses have been to Jund and Miracles which I lost to a mis-play.
4 Death rite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Daybreak Ranger
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize
2 Lightning Bolt
Obviously no one actually gives a ***** about Zoo, but I have 3-1'd both times I have played this list at locals. My losses have been to Jund and Miracles which I lost to a mis-play.
Deck tags help, but this doesn't look like Zoo to me. Zoo's all about fast aggro with cheap efficient threats and cheap efficient removal. Seems like you have too many slow threats and control elements to really be a Zoo deck. It doesn't mean it's a bad deck, but it's not Zoo.
Here's a look at a modern take on Zoo doing reasonably well (in the money at least) at a SCG open:
Those cards are too all in for my liking. If I'm going to be that all in on a strategy I'll just cast LEDs. This is like a Jund Zoo hybrid and the thought seizes have really helped me beat combo.
Hello guys, I've been reading the post for a lot of time and now I dare to post on it. I used to play Zoo for a long time before the S&T proliferation (when the Deck was a Tier1-Tier1.5) and now I want to give a try again to my favourite Legacy deck (my pet deck also jojo)... this is the list that I want to play, maybe it is not the best or the more efficient, but I like how it looks:
Basically I try to use the advantage of Smiter due to its numbers (4/4 for 3), its uncounterability and its benefits from Liliana's discard. The 2 PoP are a pretty good weapon for the first game 'cauze nobody expect them. The Mandrills do a great job being out of bolt/decay range and benefit a lot of the graveyard helping to decrease opponent's goyfs. the GCR are very useful because they are pump for the early nacatl or ape and even for the Smiter, and then you can use them as a 4/4 trample if you need it in the mid-game.
The sideboard is depending of each meta, but for me that configuration has been work pretty good.... any thoughts, critics and suggestions are welcome
PS: Sorry for my English but I'm not a native speaker.
Guys lets not let this forum die, gotta keep ZOO alive. Max we have similar lists and I always win game 1 after sideboard its a different story
4x windswept heath
4x wooded foothills
2x arid mesa
1x taiga
1x plateau
1x savannah
1x mountain
1x forest
1x plains
2x horizon canopy ( love this card helps when you just need an extra card for the win )
1x dryad arbor ( not sure on this card )
4x nacatl
3x loam lion
3x kird ape
4x qusali pridemage
2x grim lavamancer
2x vexing devil ( love this guy in opening hand )
3x tarmogoyph
4x ghorclan rampager
2x knight of reliquary ( not sold on this card kinda wanna keep the mana curve down )
4x lightning bolt
4x chain lightning
2x fireblast ( or price of progress, any thoughts?)
3x path to exile
WRT your list, you're really low on actual usable land: being hit by 2 wastelands would turn off your Fireblasts entirely. By dropping most of my need for white mana, I'm able to run a mostly RG manabase for extra consistency.
unfortunately I only own 1 of each of the fetch lands, but very good point more red mana is needed. dryad arbor is out and another mountain is in, until I get a taiga. why do you play 20 lands your mana curve is so low? what r your thoughts on vexing devil and knight of the reli? if not then what do you recommend"?
I haven't played Zoo in over two years (it died with Miracles), but I don't think I ever played it with less than 20 lands. Given I was running Wasteland (it can steal games), but you actually need mana. Yes you play one and two drops, but when you want to play multiple creatures and dump your hand, you need mana to do so.
And Price of Progress is pretty good Game 1. You use it and surprise them and then side it out. They will try to play around it by fetching basics and you don't even have it in your main deck anymore game 2 or 3.
I haven't really fully built out my new Zoo so I'm not sure how the Libraries would work when combined with Eidolon and fetches. If life became a problem I'd use Helix. I wouldn't try to stack pump with Boros Charm/Rampager ... too big a risk of x-for-1 removal as we're not Hexproof and we don't have countermagic. I don't particularly like Knight nor Smiter in Zoo, but give them a try and see what works best for you.
which is better fireblast or lightning helix or price of progress or boros charm. im gonna run 2.
which is better knight of reliquary or Loxodon Smiter, im gonna run 2
Go Price of Progress and maybe Boros Charm although frankly Fireblast, Helix, and Charm are all subpar.
As for Knight or Loxodon, both are pretty slow, but if you have to choose then Knight. Also run it with Wasteland. Then you can do multiple Wasteland activations in one turn, which can win a lot of games. It's what Maverick used to do against Ux Delver decks.
As the previous poster indicated, Vexing Devil is bad for Zoo. If it resolves that means they have an answer for it. The card basically lets the opponent choose what situation they want, which is bad for you.
If you're referring to me, I didn't actually say that but I definitely agree. Searching for Vexing Devil (or Browbeat) within this thread and the Burn thread gives a lot of discussion about why such cards never see competitive play. Sure they're fun. Sure they're swingy. But they're simply not that effective when played against opponents of even intermediate skill.
Regardless, Eidolon is the one reason why Burn is remotely viable in modern Legacy. Since Zoo operates in a similar way as Burn (in general terms), and since the highest Zoo finishes I've seen recently all maindeck 4 Eidolons, it seems like a necessary part of the strategy.
i'm gonna defend vexing devil a little bit. yes i understand if he was good we would see him in competitive decks. 1 mana for 4 damage or 1 mana for a 4/3 is amazing and if the opponent does have an answer, i say go ahead that means he leaves other threats alone. i dont own Eidolon however would Pyrostatic Pillar work? its the same thing only its an enchamtnent and is less mana intensive
There's nothing you can say in defense of Devil that hasn't been said before (but feel free to prove me wrong). Seriously, read up on what's been said about it and Browbeat on the Burn thread.
You said you need redemption, and that's going to be difficult even with an optimized list, for the simple reason that Zoo is positioned rather poorly in the current Legacy meta. Without optimal cards, your chances drop even further.
If you're restricted by what you can get before the event, then don't worry about it: have fun with your build regardless of the outcome. You can build fun decks any number of ways, but we're trying to help you make the most streamlined, effective deck possible. When funds and time allow and if you want to make the deck more effective, revisit what we've suggested. I'm confident that you'll see the deck improve as a result of those changes. (Due to the viability of Zoo though, I'd still suggest you devote resources toward building a more effective deck.)
so don't think I will get the goyph or edilon's b4 tomorrow night so with that being said what can we do? main deck thalia? more burn? would a scavenging ooze replace the 4th tarmo? maybe a main deck Teeg.
so don't think I will get the goyph or edilon's b4 tomorrow night so with that being said what can we do? main deck thalia? more burn? would a scavenging ooze replace the 4th tarmo? maybe a main deck Teeg.
The closest thing to Goyf (i.e. a beater) you named is probably Scavenging Ooze. You will likely have a full graveyard either of your creatures or theirs from your burn so he can grow. At the same time, Thalia and Teeg are good for Zoo because they can help you against Combo decks. It really comes down to what you want the list to do. Be explosive or be disruptive.
Lots of Atarka's Command going on, and two Thalia seem rather random and half-hearted. Obviously quite aggressive though, with 16 2+ power for 1 creatures. I think you'd practically need this swarm idea to effectively run Atarka's Command. It makes me wonder if Young Pyromancer or Monastery Mentor (or both), along with Atarka's Command and a heavier Burn build could be viable.
Unfortunately it has not led to success at any tournament I would classify as "big" or "big enough." But yes, if I am going to play an "aggro" or non-blue deck I'll play Jund since it won't fold to Control (but will fold to Combo).
I've tested so many iterations of this deck and nothing worked. Thalias mainboard to deal with combo (made my spells janky), Green Sun's package for hatebears (not fast enough anymore), go all out (lose to mass removal), etc. Zoo basically needs either something to deal with Terminus and mass removal or something to speed it up *considerably*.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams
4 Death rite Shaman
3 Dark Confidant
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Daybreak Ranger
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Vindicate
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
2 Lingering Souls
4 Thoughtseize
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
1 Bloodtsained Mire
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
1 Plateau
1 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Stomping Grounds
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
3 Wasteland
Sideboard:
1 Choke
2 Loxodon Smiter
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Slaughter Games
2 Red Blast
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Rest in Peace
2 Zealous Persecution
Deck tags help, but this doesn't look like Zoo to me. Zoo's all about fast aggro with cheap efficient threats and cheap efficient removal. Seems like you have too many slow threats and control elements to really be a Zoo deck. It doesn't mean it's a bad deck, but it's not Zoo.
Here's a look at a modern take on Zoo doing reasonably well (in the money at least) at a SCG open:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NezPbvVmNbY
Notable cards (also mentioned above)
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Standard
UB UB Midrange UB
Modern
GRWUBTribal Flames ZooGRWUB
RUGTemur DelverRUG
Legacy
UW Stoneblade UW
3 Kird Ape
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Ghor-clan Rampager
4 Loxodon Smiter
3 Hooting Mandrills
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Price of Progress
1 Sylvan Library
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
2 Taiga
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Path to Exile
2 Pyroblast
2 Red Blast
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Mindbreak Trap
Basically I try to use the advantage of Smiter due to its numbers (4/4 for 3), its uncounterability and its benefits from Liliana's discard. The 2 PoP are a pretty good weapon for the first game 'cauze nobody expect them. The Mandrills do a great job being out of bolt/decay range and benefit a lot of the graveyard helping to decrease opponent's goyfs. the GCR are very useful because they are pump for the early nacatl or ape and even for the Smiter, and then you can use them as a 4/4 trample if you need it in the mid-game.
The sideboard is depending of each meta, but for me that configuration has been work pretty good.... any thoughts, critics and suggestions are welcome
PS: Sorry for my English but I'm not a native speaker.
4x windswept heath
4x wooded foothills
2x arid mesa
1x taiga
1x plateau
1x savannah
1x mountain
1x forest
1x plains
2x horizon canopy ( love this card helps when you just need an extra card for the win )
1x dryad arbor ( not sure on this card )
4x nacatl
3x loam lion
3x kird ape
4x qusali pridemage
2x grim lavamancer
2x vexing devil ( love this guy in opening hand )
3x tarmogoyph
4x ghorclan rampager
2x knight of reliquary ( not sold on this card kinda wanna keep the mana curve down )
4x lightning bolt
4x chain lightning
2x fireblast ( or price of progress, any thoughts?)
3x path to exile
1x sylvan library ( considering domri rade )
that's my list,please let me know your opinions
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Ghor-Clan Rampager
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
2 Fireblast
2 Rancor
2 Sylvan Library
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
4 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
That's just my last saved list. If I wanted to be serious, I'd likely do
-1 Rampager or Lavamancer
-2 Rancor
-3 Helix
+2 Qasali Pridemage
+4 Eidolon of the Great Revel
WRT your list, you're really low on actual usable land: being hit by 2 wastelands would turn off your Fireblasts entirely. By dropping most of my need for white mana, I'm able to run a mostly RG manabase for extra consistency.
Library over Domri for sure.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
And Price of Progress is pretty good Game 1. You use it and surprise them and then side it out. They will try to play around it by fetching basics and you don't even have it in your main deck anymore game 2 or 3.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
which is better fireblast or lightning helix or price of progress or boros charm. im gonna run 2.
which is better knight of reliquary or Loxodon Smiter, im gonna run 2
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Go Price of Progress and maybe Boros Charm although frankly Fireblast, Helix, and Charm are all subpar.
As for Knight or Loxodon, both are pretty slow, but if you have to choose then Knight. Also run it with Wasteland. Then you can do multiple Wasteland activations in one turn, which can win a lot of games. It's what Maverick used to do against Ux Delver decks.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
4x nactyl
3x kird ape
3x loamlion
4x pridemage
2x lavamancer
2x vexing devil
2x smiter
4x ghor-clan
3x tarmo
4x lightning bolt
4x chain lightning
2x price of progress
3x path to exile
1x sylvan library
1x savannah
1x tiaga
1x plateau
1x stomping ground
1x sacred foundry
3x windswept heath
4x wooded foothills
2x aris mesa
1x mountain
1x plains
1x forest
2x horizon canopy
sideboard:
4 red element blast
2 krosan grip
2 tormods crypt
3x thalia
1 pryoclasm
1 gaddock teeg
2 ethersworn cantonist
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
Regardless, Eidolon is the one reason why Burn is remotely viable in modern Legacy. Since Zoo operates in a similar way as Burn (in general terms), and since the highest Zoo finishes I've seen recently all maindeck 4 Eidolons, it seems like a necessary part of the strategy.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
i'm gonna defend vexing devil a little bit. yes i understand if he was good we would see him in competitive decks. 1 mana for 4 damage or 1 mana for a 4/3 is amazing and if the opponent does have an answer, i say go ahead that means he leaves other threats alone. i dont own Eidolon however would Pyrostatic Pillar work? its the same thing only its an enchamtnent and is less mana intensive
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
You said you need redemption, and that's going to be difficult even with an optimized list, for the simple reason that Zoo is positioned rather poorly in the current Legacy meta. Without optimal cards, your chances drop even further.
If you're restricted by what you can get before the event, then don't worry about it: have fun with your build regardless of the outcome. You can build fun decks any number of ways, but we're trying to help you make the most streamlined, effective deck possible. When funds and time allow and if you want to make the deck more effective, revisit what we've suggested. I'm confident that you'll see the deck improve as a result of those changes. (Due to the viability of Zoo though, I'd still suggest you devote resources toward building a more effective deck.)
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
The closest thing to Goyf (i.e. a beater) you named is probably Scavenging Ooze. You will likely have a full graveyard either of your creatures or theirs from your burn so he can grow. At the same time, Thalia and Teeg are good for Zoo because they can help you against Combo decks. It really comes down to what you want the list to do. Be explosive or be disruptive.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/legacy-daily-2015-07-06#snapcaster_-
Lots of Atarka's Command going on, and two Thalia seem rather random and half-hearted. Obviously quite aggressive though, with 16 2+ power for 1 creatures. I think you'd practically need this swarm idea to effectively run Atarka's Command. It makes me wonder if Young Pyromancer or Monastery Mentor (or both), along with Atarka's Command and a heavier Burn build could be viable.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.