I've been testing out a new list with Experiment One. By playing one other creature, it's as good as Loam Lion, and most games it'll end up being a Wild Nacatl that regenerates. Here's what I'm looking at right now.
With as much blue is in the format Fireblast is out, it's far too much of a liability. Angel of Despair is cool and all, but Oblivion Ring is actually castable and does more for the deck. You essentially want to turn Zoo into a complicated Burn deck though.
So speaking of manabases, has anyone ever built their Zoo as more of a 2-color deck with a small splash? When my Zoo was still small, I only had StP and a couple Pridemages to worry about in the maindeck. A Plains helps Nacatl but isn't absolutely required. My manabase was predominantly RG, which gave both consistency and some defense against disruption (it's harder to kill off all my R or G sources, and killing off my W doesn't do much). I remember a Reanimator deck landing Iona on white, and me alpha-striking and burning for the win right after.
Now I've added a couple Knights to the deck, but I also added GSZ in place of Library. Very cutesy and tricksy which probably doesn't help, but it helps get Knights and Pridemages onto the field without white.
With as much blue is in the format Fireblast is out, it's far too much of a liability. Angel of Despair is cool and all, but Oblivion Ring is actually castable and does more for the deck. You essentially want to turn Zoo into a complicated Burn deck though.
You're better off running something like Mindbreak Trap if you need to worry about those decks.
I do think that burning-tree and new "standard/Modern" tech should be tried out. It might be worth it, though I still see this not helping to really get rid of the problem that is terminus.
It only amplifies the Terminus problem.
Burning-Tree Emissary in nature forces you to commit. If you aren't utilizing the free mana from it, you are playing Grizzly Bears.
I think that Zoo supported with Bloodbraid Elf has much better match up against Miracles because recursion is much stronger. Sideboard has been desinged against Jace.dec, LingerinSouls.dec, Storm & Show'n'Tell and ofcourse some diverse options are also included (Surgicals, Grips + Grudge).
I will report my play results after Wednesday but I would apreciate some feedback also
I am missing one Plateau which would replace Taiga/Savannah or Scavening Ooze (without Zeniths it is pretty weak).
Consider why 1 Ooze without Zenith is weak, and apply that same reasoning to Jitte, Elspeth, and Library. I think this deck will end up giving you the wrong cards at the wrong time. See sig.
Punishing Grove seems a bit slow for Zoo, but feel free to try it out. If it ends up not performing, add the Chains back in. Ooze can easily become another Pridemage. The other singletons could standardize on a 2x or 3x of one instead of 1x each. If there's extra room, you can always add the fourth Path.
This deck looks like it also has a lot of internal dependencies. Old "traditional Zoo" had no such dependencies: the cards were all great by themselves and with minimal support. These dependencies combined with the low card counts (lots of 1x and 2x here) will create a big hit to consistency.
A little good news. A version of Zoo did well last March. It got second place out of 106 players.
Decklist looks fast and aggressive. With both a playset of Kird Ape and Loam Lion.
Consider why 1 Ooze without Zenith is weak, and apply that same reasoning to Jitte, Elspeth, and Library. I think this deck will end up giving you the wrong cards at the wrong time. See sig.
Punishing Grove seems a bit slow for Zoo, but feel free to try it out. If it ends up not performing, add the Chains back in. Ooze can easily become another Pridemage. The other singletons could standardize on a 2x or 3x of one instead of 1x each. If there's extra room, you can always add the fourth Path.
This deck looks like it also has a lot of internal dependencies. Old "traditional Zoo" had no such dependencies: the cards were all great by themselves and with minimal support. These dependencies combined with the low card counts (lots of 1x and 2x here) will create a big hit to consistency.
Good luck!
Well... it went as I feared;
Round 1 against UW Miracles
Game 1: 3 x Terminus
Game 2: Turn two surgical to my punishing fire and I was holding two in my hand > Humility, Jace, Perish, Entreat the Angels
Round 2 against Goblins
Game 1: He got manascrewed and I drawed exactly right amount of removal to his creatures.
Game 2: This battle took ages.. we both had enormous horde of creatures.. I couldn't attack because Bloodbraid Elf's toughness is only 2 (game was draw)
Round 3 against Esper Blade
Game 1: Opponent didn't draw anything interesting with his brainstorms.. I overrun him by Tarmogoyfs.
Game 2: He did draw pretty much nuts; Removal into Stoneforge Mystic+FoW into Jace.
Game 3: He manascrewed hard.. wastelanded one of his two lands and it was a game.
Round 4 against Belcher
Game 1: Turn two win
Game 2: With incredible luck I lock him out with Ancient Grudge + Canonist
Game 3: Turn three win (I mulled down to four and didn't see any kind of hate)
I am very disappointed to this deck.. I think that there is no point to run non-U/non-B midrange decks as long as those Terminus.decs are running wild. I am going to change the deck into aggro. Rip out all Bloodbraid Elves and Knight of the Reluquaries and put in all those nasty 1-drops.
While it could certainly be true that midrange Zoo is no longer relevant, it might simply be that your particular build wasn't quite right. I'd suggest dwchang's recent posts as he's had a lot of experience with midrange Zoo. OTOH if you're looking for a change of pace, by all means try out the faster variants. =)
While it could certainly be true that midrange Zoo is no longer relevant, it might simply be that your particular build wasn't quite right. I'd suggest dwchang's recent posts as he's had a lot of experience with midrange Zoo. OTOH if you're looking for a change of pace, by all means try out the faster variants. =)
I'd say I run a "toolbox Zoo" more than a midrange and I run it exclusively so I can fetch silver bullets for match-ups like UW Miracles and Storm. I still run 11 one-drops and don't subscribe to running Noble Hierarchs to ramp into a three or four drop. I run Knights, but just as a two-of.
I haven't played it in a few months, but this was the last variant of Zoo I played. I should note that it was specifically built to beat RUG, BUG, and Jund, which is why I run 8 exile effects. Killing their Goyfs and Delvers means they can't do anything since they only run 12 creatures.
If I were to change things for the current meta, I'd probably put more combo hate in the SB instead of UW Control hate (which it mostly is). It's counter-intuitive, but I actually really like the 8 Exile Effects even if one give them life. It's nice to have 8 ways to just kill Goyf instead of only 4 and 8 burn spells that become irrelevant later on.
On the other end, you could just go super fast one drop Zoo and pray it's fast enough. Could also add finishers like Fireblast and Price of Progress I think.
The new Boros enchantment "Legion's Initiative" might be just what Zoo needs. It protects us from Terminus and Wrath effects while also pumping some (not the majority) of our dudes. It would have been significantly better if it were Gruul and pumped Red and Green creatures, but I'll take it.
While I really like the anti-Terminus effect, I am actually not sure how to fit this card into an already stuffed Zoo deck though. To be honest, I am pessimistic that it will make Zoo's threat density too low, but I am at least willing to test it out and am actually excited that Wizards at least gives us something to try out in Zoo considering how dead the deck has been the last few sets.
Off the top of my head, in my own lists, I could see taking out something like Sylvan Library, two creatures, or getting rid of my GSZ package to put in two of these, but all of those ideas are not that attractive to me. I'm leaning towards Sylvan because we usually play Sylvan Library to draw more threats and to filter out things we don't need. You usually need Sylvan because of a board wipe or your key creatures were killed. In theory if this enchantment is in play, you don't need the primary reason for Sylvan because your creatures never died in the first place. That's the theory, but I'm not so sure.
I imagine since it is not a chase Mythic, you can probably pick up a playset for < $5. For now I'd say I'm cautiously optimistic, which is better than how I usually feel regarding new Zoo cards in the latest sets.
I'm not so concerned with threat density across the 75 but rather how the timing will affect its usefulness. If we put it out early, we've just "wasted" two early game mana we could have otherwise used on creatures to further develop our board. Late game, it only does a little bit on offense due to the low numbers of red attackers (Lavamancer can run in instead of shoot if the yard is low, but his 1 toughness is still a liability in combat). Late game, it could conceivably help on defense but are we really going to have WRWR to both cast and pop it in a single turn all while facing the inevitable Wastelands of an opposing control deck?
It's definitely not maindeck material unless you shift the army towards red (Goblin Guide et. al.), but might find a place in the side if you see a lot of sweepers in your meta. At that point, it's no more damaging to threat density than a Mindbreak Trap or what have you.
@re: midrange, I was thinking more of your older designs when you ran a full set of Knights. Whoops! I also play a toolbox design with GSZ and Knights for more flexible options. That's a better description.
I'm not so concerned with threat density across the 75 but rather how the timing will affect its usefulness. If we put it out early, we've just "wasted" two early game mana we could have otherwise used on creatures to further develop our board. Late game, it only does a little bit on offense due to the low numbers of red attackers (Lavamancer can run in instead of shoot if the yard is low, but his 1 toughness is still a liability in combat). Late game, it could conceivably help on defense but are we really going to have WRWR to both cast and pop it in a single turn all while facing the inevitable Wastelands of an opposing control deck?
It's definitely not maindeck material unless you shift the army towards red (Goblin Guide et. al.), but might find a place in the side if you see a lot of sweepers in your meta. At that point, it's no more damaging to threat density than a Mindbreak Trap or what have you.
You bring up a good point and that is early game mana. If we play this too early, we basically aren't playing creatures and that is counter to Zoo's main objective, which is to deal as much damage as quickly as possible. This basically denies us playing a Tarmogoyf. On the opposite end, if we play it too late, either our creatures were already removed or our opponent now knows what we're doing since we've telegraphed it.
And yes, as you mentioned, I think the +1/0 and +0/+1 is pretty unimpressive. To be honest, that's not the reason I was excited. If it were +1/+1 for red and +1/+1 for green I'd say that'd be much better since it pumps Nacatls and Goyfs then, but oh well.
Perhaps you are right and it simply goes into the sideboard for matches like UW Miracles, Esperblade and BUG Control. Either way, as I said earlier, I'm just excited to see SOMETHING to try instead of nothing, which I'm used to from new sets.
Edit: Since I only came back a year ago there are a lot of older cards I am not aware of, but someone mentioned Ghostway and that sounds like it does the more important effect (anti-Terminus) and at instant speed. Then again, they can counter that while the enchantment (also counterable) once on the board can be used whenever.
@re: midrange, I was thinking more of your older designs when you ran a full set of Knights. Whoops! I also play a toolbox design with GSZ and Knights for more flexible options. That's a better description.
You're right. I tried 4 Knights, but I think I did that when I had -2 Sylvan Library or maybe -1 QPM so it was still the same philosophy of having a Toolbox and GSZ, but also having 4 Knights. I'd say my current iteration is better for the current meta only because the QPMs are very valuable when there is countertop around and frankly playing a three drop in Zoo feels awkward sometimes. At the same time, I personally feel we need the Knight simply to fetch Karakas.
I like Sylvan Library but I hate running 2, I also hate running 1 of's. Thinking of maybe -3 Lightning Helix + 1 Sylvan Library and + 2 Fireblast.
I liked the fast list posted by The Fluff, any reason not to run Steppe Lynx I mean there are 14 fetch lands or do you think it was just a consistency thing.
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Sanity check: neither Wear//Tear nor Voice of Resurgence belongs in this deck. Pridemages/Grips are more versatile than W//T, and Voice has too many dependencies/prerequisites (plus Swords to Plowshares is a card). Any thoughts?
Sanity check: neither Wear//Tear nor Voice of Resurgence belongs in this deck. Pridemages/Grips are more versatile than W//T, and Voice has too many dependencies/prerequisites (plus Swords to Plowshares is a card). Any thoughts?
Agree with your assessment. Krosan Grip has saved me so many times against Counterbalance locks or just destroying a Sense's Divining Top. Wear//Tear is more mana efficient, but the split second is just so good.
As for Voice, as you said it just dies to Swords to Plowshares and it's not that difficult to get around the copy clause.
I think the only card from DGM that will see play in Zoo is Legion's Initiative and not even as a MB card. I am thinking of getting two just for the sideboard for the UW Miracles match-up. I'm actually not sure what I'd take out for it, but dodging a Terminus seems like it'd be just enough to make the Miracles match-up bearable. Like I said though, not sure what I'd take out so maybe it won't be playable.
Skylasher is nice, but it also wouldn't see play in Zoo. We already beat UGx Delver decks so it's not really necessary. It is a good card, but I'm not sure if even Maverick would run it over Scryb Ranger.
it's kind of like a mix of standard agro-zoo and the currently popular big-zoo with Punishing fire.
Loxodon Smiters + Punishing fire is a backbreaking thing against decks that want you to discard.
Plus, Grove of the burnwillows draws so much hate from Wastelands that my duals have less to worry about.
If I were to describe the deck in 1 sentence, it would be... "The speed and ferocity of small zoo with the grindy mid-game of Punishing Fire"
it's kind of like a mix of standard agro-zoo and the currently popular big-zoo with Punishing fire.
Loxodon Smiters + Punishing fire is a backbreaking thing against decks that want you to discard.
Plus, Grove of the burnwillows draws so much hate from Wastelands that my duals have less to worry about.
If I were to describe the deck in 1 sentence, it would be... "The speed and ferocity of small zoo with the grindy mid-game of Punishing Fire"
Hmm, I like it. I'm playing Punishing Jund right now and never thought about how Punishing Fire gives Zoo that reach where if the board stalls (happens a lot lately), we have another out. It's an interesting strategy and in addition, Punishing Fire is removal (which Zoo loves). The only thing I dislike is the lack of game against Combo, but I'm guessing you dedicate a lot in the SB so that you don't pollute your list with too many ideas. It seems simple, but that may be a good thing.
Only change I might recommend is (and this is weird) removing the Lavamancers for something like Scavanging Ooze. I feel like Grim Lavamancer is kind of counter to your Punishing Fire combo and the Punishing Fires kind of are like Grim Lavamancers (i.e. more removal). At the same time, I haven't run a Zoo list with Lavamancer like ever so I'm not sure.
Hmm, I like it. I'm playing Punishing Jund right now and never thought about how Punishing Fire gives Zoo that reach where if the board stalls (happens a lot lately), we have another out. It's an interesting strategy and in addition, Punishing Fire is removal (which Zoo loves). The only thing I dislike is the lack of game against Combo, but I'm guessing you dedicate a lot in the SB so that you don't pollute your list with too many ideas. It seems simple, but that may be a good thing.
Only change I might recommend is (and this is weird) removing the Lavamancers for something like Scavanging Ooze. I feel like Grim Lavamancer is kind of counter to your Punishing Fire combo and the Punishing Fires kind of are like Grim Lavamancers (i.e. more removal). At the same time, I haven't run a Zoo list with Lavamancer like ever so I'm not sure.
Thanks for the comments.
Omg, awesome catch on the Grim Lavamancers for Oozes... Just might consider that. Seems like a good switch. I opted for Lavamancers just for that extra removal. (i know, it might be too much now.)
I'm also considering other options aside from the Ooze. (since ooze is like 30USD.)
As for combo, yeah. Sideboard has a bunch of combo-hate. Meh, zoo has always been lopsided vs combo anyway.
I was in a little hurry when I was creating this deck.. I think the last four throw in cards were 3 x Zenith + one Grim Lavamancer.
Anyhow the four rounds I played were more or less confusing.
Round 1 2 - 0
vs Laboratory Maniac.dec
Game 1: He won the dice and mulliganed down to four cards. I resolved an early Nacatl with Goblin Guide and sealed the game before my opponent were able to cast anything. My only clue was that he did sigh when I resolved Gaddock Teeg.
Game 2: He mulliganed down to six. I started again with Nacatl with turn two Goblin Guide. I was stuck in two lands for couple of turns. My opponent did cast some irrelevant spells (ponder, cabal therapy ?). After I got my third land I immediately Zenithed for Teeg and that was a game again.
SB:
-2 Price of Progress
+2 Gaddock Teeg
(I really had no idea what he was playing.. only thing i knew was that he didn't like Teeg too much in the game 1.)
Round 2 0 - 2
vs Omnihall
Game 1: He won the dice and resolved turn two Show and Tell > Omniscience > Enter the Infinite.
Game 2: I did keep pretty fast hand (2 x Nacatl + Guide). Opponent resolved turn three SnT and Omniscience but was unable to dig to see anything until his last preordain's blind draw gave him Emrakul and I lost from that spot.
Game 1: He won the dice and did keep his seven. I had super fast hand with double Goblin Guide and double Nacatl. He couldn't set his combo fast enough and was forced to tutor and threpay my double bolt to survive one more turn. He didn't draw any relevant and scoop'd.
Game 2: He was able to combo off in turn two and Tendrilled me for 24.
Game 3: I mulled down to four cards without seeing anykind of hate but my opponent misplayed somewhere by paying Gitaxian Probe with life when I Kird Ape on the board and double Chain Lightning + Fireblast in hand. He wished for Diminishing Returns and then casted Ad Nauseam when he was at 14 life. Ad Nauseam did hit Empty the warrens which was too much and he lost.
SB:
-4 Path to Exile
-4 Grim Lavamancer
+4 Mindbreak Trap
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+2 Pyroblast
Round 4 0 - 2
vs UWR landstill
Game 1: I won the dice (!!!!!) and opened with Nacatl which got Sworded.
I played another and Guide which got Sworded + Bolted. I played Tarmogoyf which met Snapcaster + Swords. Then he landed Standstill. I was forced to keep going and played another Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf was sworded turn after and then the second Standstill was landed. I lost eventually to Snapcaster and double Factory.
Game 2: Pretty much same as in game one. During my opponents three first turns he resolved five removals and was able to topdeck two Snapcasters. He also complained how bad his draws were (?!). Geist + double mishras Wrecked me and sealed the game.
SB:
-2 Fireblast
-1 Grim Lavamancer
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Red Elemental Blast
I won two combo and lost to control...... 2 - 2
I found that Snapcaster Mage truly destroys this deck. Two for one is definitely too powerful against Zoo.
I think the only SB card that I ever saw was Pyroblast in the last game.. I did draw it when I was in topdeck mode
Game 1: I won the dice (!!!!!) and opened with Nacatl which got Sworded.
I played another and Guide which got Sworded + Bolted. I played Tarmogoyf which met Snapcaster + Swords. Then he landed Standstill. I was forced to keep going and played another Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf was sworded turn after and then the second Standstill was landed. I lost eventually to Snapcaster and double Factory.
Game 2: Pretty much same as in game one. During my opponents three first turns he resolved five removals and was able to topdeck two Snapcasters. He also complained how bad his draws were (?!). Geist + double mishras Wrecked me and sealed the game.
I found that Snapcaster Mage truly destroys this deck. Two for one is definitely too powerful against Zoo.
This part of your report made me sad. It's the very reason Zoo started it's downfall. Swords to Plowshares into Snapcaster Mage Swords to Plowshares is just too good against Aggro decks like ours. It's actually a reason I was thinking Alcarin's Punishing Zoo list might make more sense (with minor tweaks) since it gives Zoo a mid-game where if our creatures get removed, we can outgrind them with Punishing Fire and Grove. I've yet to lose a single game against a blue-based control deck with Jund because of the Punishing Fire recursion.
At the same time, I was thinking about it last night (about playing Punishing Zoo) and couldn't come up with a reason to not just play Punishing Jund instead. The black gives Aggro access to all those nice discard spells for the combo match-up. Obviously Zoo has a faster early game, but those early game kills via swinging with Nacatls seem to few and far between lately.
Maybe I could argue Zoo is actually *better* against Storm combo because we establish a much faster clock and they can't Ad Nauseum and frankly I have never beaten Storm with Jund even with all the discard so maybe the black discard is just an illusion and Jund still gets smashed by Storm. So even though it's less obvious, maybe Zoo *is* better against Storm combo than Jund, but Jund has the better mid-game?
Here's more the direction I think you should be going with that...
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Burning-Tree Emissary
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Path to Exile
2 Reckless Charge
3 Price of Progress
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Mountain
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pyroblast
1 Path to Exile
2 Krosan Grip
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Oblivion Ring
With as much blue is in the format Fireblast is out, it's far too much of a liability. Angel of Despair is cool and all, but Oblivion Ring is actually castable and does more for the deck. You essentially want to turn Zoo into a complicated Burn deck though.
You're better off running something like Mindbreak Trap if you need to worry about those decks.
Now I've added a couple Knights to the deck, but I also added GSZ in place of Library. Very cutesy and tricksy which probably doesn't help, but it helps get Knights and Pridemages onto the field without white.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I do think that burning-tree and new "standard/Modern" tech should be tried out. It might be worth it, though I still see this not helping to really get rid of the problem that is terminus.
Burning-Tree Emissary in nature forces you to commit. If you aren't utilizing the free mana from it, you are playing Grizzly Bears.
60 cards
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bayou
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plateau
2 Savannah
3 Stomping Ground
4 Taiga
2 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
20 lands
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Experiment One
4 Flinthoof Boar
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Lightning Mauler
4 Wild Nacatl
32 creatures
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
8 other spells
2 Choke
2 Deathrite Shaman
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Leyline of the Void
3 Magus of the Moon
Here is the list I've been tinkering
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Karakas
1 Arid Mesa
1 Wasteland
Creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Punishing Fire
3 Path to Exile
Utilities
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Sylvan Library
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Ancient Grudge
I think that Zoo supported with Bloodbraid Elf has much better match up against Miracles because recursion is much stronger. Sideboard has been desinged against Jace.dec, LingerinSouls.dec, Storm & Show'n'Tell and ofcourse some diverse options are also included (Surgicals, Grips + Grudge).
I will report my play results after Wednesday but I would apreciate some feedback also
I am missing one Plateau which would replace Taiga/Savannah or Scavening Ooze (without Zeniths it is pretty weak).
Modern
WUBRG
Punishing Grove seems a bit slow for Zoo, but feel free to try it out. If it ends up not performing, add the Chains back in. Ooze can easily become another Pridemage. The other singletons could standardize on a 2x or 3x of one instead of 1x each. If there's extra room, you can always add the fourth Path.
This deck looks like it also has a lot of internal dependencies. Old "traditional Zoo" had no such dependencies: the cards were all great by themselves and with minimal support. These dependencies combined with the low card counts (lots of 1x and 2x here) will create a big hit to consistency.
Good luck!
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Decklist looks fast and aggressive. With both a playset of Kird Ape and Loam Lion.
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Kird Ape
4 Loam Lion
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
2 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Plateau
3 Taiga
4 Arid Mesa
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Gaddock Teeg
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Ancient Grudge
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Umezawa's Jitte
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10423&iddeck=76017
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Well... it went as I feared;
Round 1 against UW Miracles
Game 1: 3 x Terminus
Game 2: Turn two surgical to my punishing fire and I was holding two in my hand > Humility, Jace, Perish, Entreat the Angels
Round 2 against Goblins
Game 1: He got manascrewed and I drawed exactly right amount of removal to his creatures.
Game 2: This battle took ages.. we both had enormous horde of creatures.. I couldn't attack because Bloodbraid Elf's toughness is only 2 (game was draw)
Round 3 against Esper Blade
Game 1: Opponent didn't draw anything interesting with his brainstorms.. I overrun him by Tarmogoyfs.
Game 2: He did draw pretty much nuts; Removal into Stoneforge Mystic+FoW into Jace.
Game 3: He manascrewed hard.. wastelanded one of his two lands and it was a game.
Round 4 against Belcher
Game 1: Turn two win
Game 2: With incredible luck I lock him out with Ancient Grudge + Canonist
Game 3: Turn three win (I mulled down to four and didn't see any kind of hate)
I am very disappointed to this deck.. I think that there is no point to run non-U/non-B midrange decks as long as those Terminus.decs are running wild. I am going to change the deck into aggro. Rip out all Bloodbraid Elves and Knight of the Reluquaries and put in all those nasty 1-drops.
Modern
WUBRG
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I'd say I run a "toolbox Zoo" more than a midrange and I run it exclusively so I can fetch silver bullets for match-ups like UW Miracles and Storm. I still run 11 one-drops and don't subscribe to running Noble Hierarchs to ramp into a three or four drop. I run Knights, but just as a two-of.
I haven't played it in a few months, but this was the last variant of Zoo I played. I should note that it was specifically built to beat RUG, BUG, and Jund, which is why I run 8 exile effects. Killing their Goyfs and Delvers means they can't do anything since they only run 12 creatures.
4 Kird Ape
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Knight of the Reliquary
Removal (12):
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
Other (5):
3 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Wasteland
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Crop Rotation
3 Surgical Extraction
If I were to change things for the current meta, I'd probably put more combo hate in the SB instead of UW Control hate (which it mostly is). It's counter-intuitive, but I actually really like the 8 Exile Effects even if one give them life. It's nice to have 8 ways to just kill Goyf instead of only 4 and 8 burn spells that become irrelevant later on.
On the other end, you could just go super fast one drop Zoo and pray it's fast enough. Could also add finishers like Fireblast and Price of Progress I think.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
While I really like the anti-Terminus effect, I am actually not sure how to fit this card into an already stuffed Zoo deck though. To be honest, I am pessimistic that it will make Zoo's threat density too low, but I am at least willing to test it out and am actually excited that Wizards at least gives us something to try out in Zoo considering how dead the deck has been the last few sets.
Off the top of my head, in my own lists, I could see taking out something like Sylvan Library, two creatures, or getting rid of my GSZ package to put in two of these, but all of those ideas are not that attractive to me. I'm leaning towards Sylvan because we usually play Sylvan Library to draw more threats and to filter out things we don't need. You usually need Sylvan because of a board wipe or your key creatures were killed. In theory if this enchantment is in play, you don't need the primary reason for Sylvan because your creatures never died in the first place. That's the theory, but I'm not so sure.
I imagine since it is not a chase Mythic, you can probably pick up a playset for < $5. For now I'd say I'm cautiously optimistic, which is better than how I usually feel regarding new Zoo cards in the latest sets.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
It's definitely not maindeck material unless you shift the army towards red (Goblin Guide et. al.), but might find a place in the side if you see a lot of sweepers in your meta. At that point, it's no more damaging to threat density than a Mindbreak Trap or what have you.
@re: midrange, I was thinking more of your older designs when you ran a full set of Knights. Whoops! I also play a toolbox design with GSZ and Knights for more flexible options. That's a better description.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
You bring up a good point and that is early game mana. If we play this too early, we basically aren't playing creatures and that is counter to Zoo's main objective, which is to deal as much damage as quickly as possible. This basically denies us playing a Tarmogoyf. On the opposite end, if we play it too late, either our creatures were already removed or our opponent now knows what we're doing since we've telegraphed it.
And yes, as you mentioned, I think the +1/0 and +0/+1 is pretty unimpressive. To be honest, that's not the reason I was excited. If it were +1/+1 for red and +1/+1 for green I'd say that'd be much better since it pumps Nacatls and Goyfs then, but oh well.
Perhaps you are right and it simply goes into the sideboard for matches like UW Miracles, Esperblade and BUG Control. Either way, as I said earlier, I'm just excited to see SOMETHING to try instead of nothing, which I'm used to from new sets.
Edit: Since I only came back a year ago there are a lot of older cards I am not aware of, but someone mentioned Ghostway and that sounds like it does the more important effect (anti-Terminus) and at instant speed. Then again, they can counter that while the enchantment (also counterable) once on the board can be used whenever.
You're right. I tried 4 Knights, but I think I did that when I had -2 Sylvan Library or maybe -1 QPM so it was still the same philosophy of having a Toolbox and GSZ, but also having 4 Knights. I'd say my current iteration is better for the current meta only because the QPMs are very valuable when there is countertop around and frankly playing a three drop in Zoo feels awkward sometimes. At the same time, I personally feel we need the Knight simply to fetch Karakas.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Enchantments (1)
1 Sylvan Library
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Ligtning Helix
4 Path to Exile
Lands (22)
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
3 Taiga
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
2 Wasteland
1 Karakas
I like Sylvan Library but I hate running 2, I also hate running 1 of's. Thinking of maybe -3 Lightning Helix + 1 Sylvan Library and + 2 Fireblast.
I liked the fast list posted by The Fluff, any reason not to run Steppe Lynx I mean there are 14 fetch lands or do you think it was just a consistency thing.
Playing:
Modern:
BWEldrazi and TaxesBW
Legacy:
WEldraziW
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Agree with your assessment. Krosan Grip has saved me so many times against Counterbalance locks or just destroying a Sense's Divining Top. Wear//Tear is more mana efficient, but the split second is just so good.
As for Voice, as you said it just dies to Swords to Plowshares and it's not that difficult to get around the copy clause.
I think the only card from DGM that will see play in Zoo is Legion's Initiative and not even as a MB card. I am thinking of getting two just for the sideboard for the UW Miracles match-up. I'm actually not sure what I'd take out for it, but dodging a Terminus seems like it'd be just enough to make the Miracles match-up bearable. Like I said though, not sure what I'd take out so maybe it won't be playable.
Skylasher is nice, but it also wouldn't see play in Zoo. We already beat UGx Delver decks so it's not really necessary. It is a good card, but I'm not sure if even Maverick would run it over Scryb Ranger.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Kird Ape
4 Loxodon Smiter
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Path to Exile
3 Punishing Fire
Lands: 22
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Mountain
it's kind of like a mix of standard agro-zoo and the currently popular big-zoo with Punishing fire.
Loxodon Smiters + Punishing fire is a backbreaking thing against decks that want you to discard.
Plus, Grove of the burnwillows draws so much hate from Wastelands that my duals have less to worry about.
If I were to describe the deck in 1 sentence, it would be...
"The speed and ferocity of small zoo with the grindy mid-game of Punishing Fire"
Hmm, I like it. I'm playing Punishing Jund right now and never thought about how Punishing Fire gives Zoo that reach where if the board stalls (happens a lot lately), we have another out. It's an interesting strategy and in addition, Punishing Fire is removal (which Zoo loves). The only thing I dislike is the lack of game against Combo, but I'm guessing you dedicate a lot in the SB so that you don't pollute your list with too many ideas. It seems simple, but that may be a good thing.
Only change I might recommend is (and this is weird) removing the Lavamancers for something like Scavanging Ooze. I feel like Grim Lavamancer is kind of counter to your Punishing Fire combo and the Punishing Fires kind of are like Grim Lavamancers (i.e. more removal). At the same time, I haven't run a Zoo list with Lavamancer like ever so I'm not sure.
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
Thanks for the comments.
Omg, awesome catch on the Grim Lavamancers for Oozes... Just might consider that. Seems like a good switch. I opted for Lavamancers just for that extra removal. (i know, it might be too much now.)
I'm also considering other options aside from the Ooze. (since ooze is like 30USD.)
As for combo, yeah. Sideboard has a bunch of combo-hate. Meh, zoo has always been lopsided vs combo anyway.
4 Kird Ape
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
4 Grim Lavamancer
1 Gaddock Teeg
Removal and 'Finnish him!' stuff (16)
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
2 Fireblast
2 Price of Progress
1 Sylvan Library
3 Green Sun's Zenith
Lands (19)
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
2 Arid Mesa
3 Taiga
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Mountain
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Tormod's Crypt
I was in a little hurry when I was creating this deck.. I think the last four throw in cards were 3 x Zenith + one Grim Lavamancer.
Anyhow the four rounds I played were more or less confusing.
Round 1 2 - 0
vs Laboratory Maniac.dec
Game 1: He won the dice and mulliganed down to four cards. I resolved an early Nacatl with Goblin Guide and sealed the game before my opponent were able to cast anything. My only clue was that he did sigh when I resolved Gaddock Teeg.
Game 2: He mulliganed down to six. I started again with Nacatl with turn two Goblin Guide. I was stuck in two lands for couple of turns. My opponent did cast some irrelevant spells (ponder, cabal therapy ?). After I got my third land I immediately Zenithed for Teeg and that was a game again.
SB:
-2 Price of Progress
+2 Gaddock Teeg
(I really had no idea what he was playing.. only thing i knew was that he didn't like Teeg too much in the game 1.)
Round 2 0 - 2
vs Omnihall
Game 1: He won the dice and resolved turn two Show and Tell > Omniscience > Enter the Infinite.
Game 2: I did keep pretty fast hand (2 x Nacatl + Guide). Opponent resolved turn three SnT and Omniscience but was unable to dig to see anything until his last preordain's blind draw gave him Emrakul and I lost from that spot.
SB:
-4 Path to Exile
-3 Grim Lavamancer
+2 REB
+1 Pyroblast
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+2 Qasali Pridemage
Round 3 2 - 1
vs Epic Storm
Game 1: He won the dice and did keep his seven. I had super fast hand with double Goblin Guide and double Nacatl. He couldn't set his combo fast enough and was forced to tutor and threpay my double bolt to survive one more turn. He didn't draw any relevant and scoop'd.
Game 2: He was able to combo off in turn two and Tendrilled me for 24.
Game 3: I mulled down to four cards without seeing anykind of hate but my opponent misplayed somewhere by paying Gitaxian Probe with life when I Kird Ape on the board and double Chain Lightning + Fireblast in hand. He wished for Diminishing Returns and then casted Ad Nauseam when he was at 14 life. Ad Nauseam did hit Empty the warrens which was too much and he lost.
SB:
-4 Path to Exile
-4 Grim Lavamancer
+4 Mindbreak Trap
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+2 Pyroblast
Round 4 0 - 2
vs UWR landstill
Game 1: I won the dice (!!!!!) and opened with Nacatl which got Sworded.
I played another and Guide which got Sworded + Bolted. I played Tarmogoyf which met Snapcaster + Swords. Then he landed Standstill. I was forced to keep going and played another Tarmogoyf. Tarmogoyf was sworded turn after and then the second Standstill was landed. I lost eventually to Snapcaster and double Factory.
Game 2: Pretty much same as in game one. During my opponents three first turns he resolved five removals and was able to topdeck two Snapcasters. He also complained how bad his draws were (?!). Geist + double mishras Wrecked me and sealed the game.
SB:
-2 Fireblast
-1 Grim Lavamancer
+2 Pyroblast
+1 Red Elemental Blast
I won two combo and lost to control...... 2 - 2
I found that Snapcaster Mage truly destroys this deck. Two for one is definitely too powerful against Zoo.
I think the only SB card that I ever saw was Pyroblast in the last game.. I did draw it when I was in topdeck mode
Modern
WUBRG
This part of your report made me sad. It's the very reason Zoo started it's downfall. Swords to Plowshares into Snapcaster Mage Swords to Plowshares is just too good against Aggro decks like ours. It's actually a reason I was thinking Alcarin's Punishing Zoo list might make more sense (with minor tweaks) since it gives Zoo a mid-game where if our creatures get removed, we can outgrind them with Punishing Fire and Grove. I've yet to lose a single game against a blue-based control deck with Jund because of the Punishing Fire recursion.
At the same time, I was thinking about it last night (about playing Punishing Zoo) and couldn't come up with a reason to not just play Punishing Jund instead. The black gives Aggro access to all those nice discard spells for the combo match-up. Obviously Zoo has a faster early game, but those early game kills via swinging with Nacatls seem to few and far between lately.
Maybe I could argue Zoo is actually *better* against Storm combo because we establish a much faster clock and they can't Ad Nauseum and frankly I have never beaten Storm with Jund even with all the discard so maybe the black discard is just an illusion and Jund still gets smashed by Storm. So even though it's less obvious, maybe Zoo *is* better against Storm combo than Jund, but Jund has the better mid-game?
My Trade Thread
Current Decks:
Legacy:
GWR Punishing Maverick
UW Miracles
UR Sneak and Show
GWB Enchantress
It feels like everything Zoo doesn't want to do.