So here I the thing, te deck works. It just depends on the person and play style. I would personally drop spell peirce to 2, ponder to 2 and make daze 4. The last slot would go most Likley price of progress.
Daze is good because u can turn 1 any creature (on the play) they will drop a land to do something and you can just daze it to kill their tempo. It's not quite as good on the draw but it works.
I would run 20 just so u never get mana screwed. It's really hard trying to win a game with just 1 vol island.
I've got high hopes for this deck come AVR's printing. Here is my latest take on the deck. Sideboard is still subjected to what the metagame will evolve into.
As for the Snapcaster/Grim Lavamancer clash in the deck. They both serve critical roles in the deck and may co-exist due to Grim mostly feeding of dead creatures and fetchlands while the snaps hope to flashback that game ending burn. I basically ensure I have at least one burn target for snapcaster and the rest can be feed to Grim. The Lavamancer just really helps in our Maverick matchup, not unless they get a Mother of Runes online in turn one then just burn their face and hope for the best
Being totally serious, I think AVR pushes this deck to a fork in the road: do you want to be burn featuring some blue or blue tempo featuring awesome burn?
IMO these are the top red cards to run (no order):
1. Price of Progress
2. Devil
3. Bolt
4. Chain
5. Grim
I'm iffy on the miracle card because some of my friends have been giving mixed reviews. You absolutely need to hit brainstorm to capitalize on the card otherwise it's useless in your hand. Running 2x might be a solution, but it still doesn't solve the problem of making your opening hand functionally -1 card.
From here, blue is either a 50-50 split with the aforementioned red cards OR it's simply a buffer to filter into MORE burn. I think Force of Will isn't needed (gasp). There's little incentive atm to run the card maindeck when you have very powerful and snapcaster-able cheap countermagic in pierce, snare, daze, and even mana leak.
Assuming the 5 red cards I mentioned go 4x each, you're at 20 card slots of the maindeck. Throw in 4x delver, bstorm, snapcaster and you're at 32. This is where you're going to want to figure out how much tempo you want vs how much burn. You could conceivably stockpile more burn into the deck + 2 or 3 ponders and call it a day. Alternatively, you could run some countermagic.
A card worth reconsidering is Magma Jet. Yes, it's only going to do 2 damage, but Scry is fantastic + synergistic with Delver AND the Miracle card (should you run it). Let's not forget a lot of x/1 and x/2 dorks dominate the game right now. I feel the card gets overlooked because it's "not fast enough" though its in-game use makes up for its "on paper" shortcomings.
Fireblast is also worth considering for the deck, but with stuff like pierce and flusterstorm floating around metagames en-mass, it's quite a gamble to throw away useful lands.
@grim and snap:
Run both. The times the two conflict are minimal. Grim can also eat fetchlands and wastelands/associated 'graveyard crap' whille snapcaster recycles spells.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
So, I hope to play in my first Legacy tourney May 12th, and I've settled on this archetype for my first deck. I'm really stoked :). I wanted to try to put a list together and put it out there to see what people thought. Any and all comments, critiques, criticisms, etc. are welcome, as I need a lot of help and then some to begin to understand the choices for this deck better.
All in all, I really want to take this deck in the most burn-centric direction possible, while having sufficient scrying to smooth out my draws and keep the pressure on and enough counters to answer the most crippling threats.
1) Is Grim Lavamancer really better than another 1-2x Price of Progress and/or 1-2x Fireblast. Damage to the face is what I'm going for here, and Lavamancer underwhelms me. Is it viable to just race creatures instead of removing them? I'd almost rather take this guy out altogether and run Lava Spikes or some other direct damage spell.
2) In what situations is Daze really good? It seems like you're relying on your opponent to tap out to play a threat in order for Daze to be effective, which isn't exactly something I'd like to count on. Could someone explain its usefulness to me?
3) Is there a general consensus on what's better regarding 18 lands v. 20 lands? 2 more slots to mess with would be nice if 18 lands is perfectly viable, but I also don't want to find myself frequently running short.
Answers:
I'm not so sure Grim Lavamancer is better than just adding in 2 more Price of Progresses (those are usually your big slugger burn spells), but it's definitely better than adding 2 more Fireblasts. Sure, Fireblast is a slugger, but I've sometimes had trouble hitting 2 Mountains (especially when Wastelanded), and I've definitely had trouble hitting 4 Mountains. Running more than 2 Fireblasts just isn't worth it.
Daze is really good when your opponent taps out to do anything. Just hit the first card they tap out for. It's not so great when you're on the draw, though, so depending on the match-up, board them out when you're on the draw.
I like 18 lands, as I run 7-8 cantrips and still sometimes get mana flood issues, but 20 lands may be better in a Wasteland and Stifle-filled meta.
@grim and snap:
Run both. The times the two conflict are minimal. Grim can also eat fetchlands and wastelands/associated 'graveyard crap' whille snapcaster recycles spells.
I'd run 2-4 depending on how rampant aggro is in my meta.
As for the land count, 18-20 depends on your deck. Personally when running wastelands or fireblasts i go up to 20 lands else just run 18.
Should Fireblast not be a maindeck card, necessarily? I currently have 2x Fireblast and 2x Price of Progress. Would I be better off freeing up the 2x Fireblast slots for another PoP and something else? What do you bring in Fireblasts for?
Should Fireblast not be a maindeck card, necessarily? I currently have 2x Fireblast and 2x Price of Progress. Would I be better off freeing up the 2x Fireblast slots for another PoP and something else? What do you bring in Fireblasts for?
I think PoP, in any developed meta, should be a 4x in the 75. How you split that is up to you. I think 3:1 is solid tbh. Very often you're looking at 1R = at least 6 damage.
I also mentioned how there have been discussions questioning the literal "cost" of casting fireblast. It's a 1-for-3 finisher that has to go through. If for some reason it doesn't, you're really knee deep.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
This was really helpful, but I find myself wondering what I should be boarding OUT against the most common archetypes to make room to bring these things IN. Are there particular cards in this deck that just suck vs. Maverick, Stoneblade, RUG Tempo, etc. that should definitely be boarded out? Along with this, does our role vs. particular archetypes change, or is our strategy just pretty much always damage to the face ASAP?
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Magma Jet and Ponder have no proper synergy with any Miracle because, although they let you hit them sooner, they don't actually let you Miracle them straight away or stuff them back into your library from your hand. They, however, definitely dig for Brainstorm like a pro, and Brainstorm actually does the aforementioned things. (They also let you keep plowing through your deck until you finally hit a Miracle.)
Yes, Ponder has occasionally screwed me by handing me a Miracle after the shuffle with the draw. Hitting Miracles sooner and with more reliability is worth it, though.
Magma Jet and Ponder have no proper synergy with any Miracle because, although they let you hit them sooner, they don't actually let you Miracle them straight away or stuff them back into your library from your hand. They, however, definitely dig for Brainstorm like a pro, and Brainstorm actually does the aforementioned things. (They also let you keep plowing through your deck until you finally hit a Miracle.)
Yes, Ponder has occasionally screwed me by handing me a Miracle after the shuffle with the draw. Hitting Miracles sooner and with more reliability is worth it, though.
I'm not yet sold on thunderous wrath. In my proxy playtest with maverick, wrath automatically fold to teeg. Against control, their prepared, if you set aside your draw card to justify that its a miracle or you flip and let them see.
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Mono color Rules!
:symw:Death and Taxes:symw:
:symr:Burn:symr:
Mono Black Control
The winning list looks great. I could see it with Devil over Grim and fewer fetches being very powerful after AVR comes out.
How nessissary is Snapcaster for you guys? To me, the best case is that you pay 1UR to bolt the opp and get a 2/1 (with 16 lands, paying 2UR for a PoP is not going to happen). How good is this really? On the face of it, I'm not certain I would say this is better than Lava Spike. A 2/1 body for 1U without haste is not impressive in this deck in the slightest.
UR Snapcaster does sound janky. Counter Burn sounds fair. Blue Burn or Izzet Deck Wins makes sense too.
On snapcaster, I hold them like I hold my force of will. They are the only card advantage we have, and the card that makes UR better than RUG. Depending on the opponent, against maverick, rug, esper blade sculpting a hand of 1 snapcaster, 1 POP, and 1 counter will get you there.
If you want big plays and resilience against disruption, Shattering Spree. If you want to further your gameplan at a cost of being hit by just about every counterspell in the format, the more greedy Smash to Smithereens is an option. Null Rod also gives Affinity, Equipment, and Aether Vial fits.
The winning list looks great. I could see it with Devil over Grim and fewer fetches being very powerful after AVR comes out.
How nessissary is Snapcaster for you guys? To me, the best case is that you pay 1UR to bolt the opp and get a 2/1 (with 16 lands, paying 2UR for a PoP is not going to happen). How good is this really? On the face of it, I'm not certain I would say this is better than Lava Spike. A 2/1 body for 1U without haste is not impressive in this deck in the slightest.
Staple. The card is a 2/1 for two with flash. That alone allows for interesting play tricks. Now toss in the fact that he recoups something in your yard. Very very potent combination. At worst, you're making an otherwise dead lightning bolt or brainstorm in the yard appear again as #5,6, etc. With cards like PoP that's sometimes all you need to win. Delver has no problem punching others in the face from the onset of the game. Finishing off an opponent can be tricky and delver just adds so many nasty lines of play. This all is in addition to him being a threat who beats for damage. Sure, you can scoff at a 2/1, but often he's placing pressure on the opponent OR taking one for the team against a huge fatty.
@Devil...I think this directly replaces guide, but that's my opinion.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
Your post mentions Delver twice. I think you meant Snapcaster?
I can see Snapcaster being more suited to a deck that sets up big plays, rather than the "consistently mediocre" plan of Burn where everything pretty much does 3 damage on average. We've already seen that UR Delver can be built in different ways and with different goals, so he's certainly useful but by no means an auto-include in every version.
@Devil...I think this directly replaces guide, but that's my opinion.
Any other opinions on this? Will Vexing Devil run alongside Goblin Guide, or will Guide have come to the end of his tenure in this deck with Devil's release?
Your post mentions Delver twice. I think you meant Snapcaster?
I can see Snapcaster being more suited to a deck that sets up big plays, rather than the "consistently mediocre" plan of Burn where everything pretty much does 3 damage on average. We've already seen that UR Delver can be built in different ways and with different goals, so he's certainly useful but by no means an auto-include in every version.
I used Delver in reference to the deck, not the card. I would have used deck tags or the complete name.
Any other opinions on this? Will Vexing Devil run alongside Goblin Guide, or will Guide have come to the end of his tenure in this deck with Devil's release?
I see both as filling the same role: early beatdown. The exception is that Devil can be a threat longer into the game (scaling upward, a 2/2 vs 4/3) and/or be a 4dmg burn spell. I wouldn't remove the 'reach' of Grim, the 'utility' of Snapcaster, or the 'consistency' of Delver of Secrets. I could see Vendilion Clique come back to the maindeck as Grim #3 or 4 depending upon how the metagame shifts.
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That which nourishes me, destroys me
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I mean, hell, we're all on a forum for something that most people would describe as a "children's card game"...do what makes you happy. You are never too old to enjoy yourself.
As far as the name of the deck, I think the world has settled on U/R Delver.
For Devil vs. Guide, I think time will tell. I agree with Warden that it fits in the Guide aggro slot, and you don't really want both because you don't want too many creatures in the way of Delver flipping. Otherwise they would both be playable, with Devil as more of a burn spell anyway. Personally though, I don't mind getting Guide out of there as his drawback does incrementally add up during a game, especially against opponents with Brainstorm and/or a lot of lands in the deck.
Although if you wanted to be more aggro/burn you could cut Snapcaster and/or Grim for Devil.
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Legacy Decks I'm Currently Running:
U Merfolk U UGW NO Bant UGW UGWRB Dredge! UGWRB
Other Legacy Decks I Own:
RGW Zoo! RGW BGW Junk BGW RGWB Aggro Loam RGWB BW Deadguy BW W Death & Taxes (almost!) W GW Green & Taxes GW BGW Junk & Taxes BGW
Daze is good because u can turn 1 any creature (on the play) they will drop a land to do something and you can just daze it to kill their tempo. It's not quite as good on the draw but it works.
I would run 20 just so u never get mana screwed. It's really hard trying to win a game with just 1 vol island.
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
Being totally serious, I think AVR pushes this deck to a fork in the road: do you want to be burn featuring some blue or blue tempo featuring awesome burn?
IMO these are the top red cards to run (no order):
1. Price of Progress
2. Devil
3. Bolt
4. Chain
5. Grim
I'm iffy on the miracle card because some of my friends have been giving mixed reviews. You absolutely need to hit brainstorm to capitalize on the card otherwise it's useless in your hand. Running 2x might be a solution, but it still doesn't solve the problem of making your opening hand functionally -1 card.
From here, blue is either a 50-50 split with the aforementioned red cards OR it's simply a buffer to filter into MORE burn. I think Force of Will isn't needed (gasp). There's little incentive atm to run the card maindeck when you have very powerful and snapcaster-able cheap countermagic in pierce, snare, daze, and even mana leak.
Assuming the 5 red cards I mentioned go 4x each, you're at 20 card slots of the maindeck. Throw in 4x delver, bstorm, snapcaster and you're at 32. This is where you're going to want to figure out how much tempo you want vs how much burn. You could conceivably stockpile more burn into the deck + 2 or 3 ponders and call it a day. Alternatively, you could run some countermagic.
A card worth reconsidering is Magma Jet. Yes, it's only going to do 2 damage, but Scry is fantastic + synergistic with Delver AND the Miracle card (should you run it). Let's not forget a lot of x/1 and x/2 dorks dominate the game right now. I feel the card gets overlooked because it's "not fast enough" though its in-game use makes up for its "on paper" shortcomings.
Fireblast is also worth considering for the deck, but with stuff like pierce and flusterstorm floating around metagames en-mass, it's quite a gamble to throw away useful lands.
@grim and snap:
Run both. The times the two conflict are minimal. Grim can also eat fetchlands and wastelands/associated 'graveyard crap' whille snapcaster recycles spells.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Answers:
Should Grim always be a 4-of?
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
I'd run 2-4 depending on how rampant aggro is in my meta.
As for the land count, 18-20 depends on your deck. Personally when running wastelands or fireblasts i go up to 20 lands else just run 18.
Sword of feast and famine FAIL responses
"How can we make a future if we don't try our hardest?"
-Monkey D. Luffy
Playing:
Modern:
BGR JUND RGB
Legacy:
URU/R Delver RU
Should Fireblast not be a maindeck card, necessarily? I currently have 2x Fireblast and 2x Price of Progress. Would I be better off freeing up the 2x Fireblast slots for another PoP and something else? What do you bring in Fireblasts for?
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
but as with all decks this is really a meta call. If your meta is rampant with 3 color decks. then go crazy with POP
Sword of feast and famine FAIL responses
"How can we make a future if we don't try our hardest?"
-Monkey D. Luffy
Playing:
Modern:
BGR JUND RGB
Legacy:
URU/R Delver RU
I was going with the implied "I want to beat Maverick" comments
I think PoP, in any developed meta, should be a 4x in the 75. How you split that is up to you. I think 3:1 is solid tbh. Very often you're looking at 1R = at least 6 damage.
I also mentioned how there have been discussions questioning the literal "cost" of casting fireblast. It's a 1-for-3 finisher that has to go through. If for some reason it doesn't, you're really knee deep.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
This was really helpful, but I find myself wondering what I should be boarding OUT against the most common archetypes to make room to bring these things IN. Are there particular cards in this deck that just suck vs. Maverick, Stoneblade, RUG Tempo, etc. that should definitely be boarded out? Along with this, does our role vs. particular archetypes change, or is our strategy just pretty much always damage to the face ASAP?
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
I'm intrigued. Stacking the deck to have Wrath as the next card would be preferred, no?
I also stand by my comments detailing how I'd construct the deck post-AVR
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
Yes, Ponder has occasionally screwed me by handing me a Miracle after the shuffle with the draw. Hitting Miracles sooner and with more reliability is worth it, though.
I guess finding a Brainstorm would be good...
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
:symw:Death and Taxes:symw:
:symr:Burn:symr:
Mono Black Control
The winning list:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Snapcaster Mage
Instants
4 Brainstorm
1 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Spell Pierce
4 Chain Lightning
3 Ponder
Basic Lands
2 Island
2 Mountain
Lands
4 Arid Mesa
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
2 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Force of Will
1 Price of Progress
2 Pyroblast
2 Smash to Smithereens
3 Submerge
4 Surgical Extraction
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson
Wow. This really gets me excited for this archetype.
I like the addition of spell piece in the main. It really helps in protecting our creatures and apply pressure.
Sword of feast and famine FAIL responses
"How can we make a future if we don't try our hardest?"
-Monkey D. Luffy
Playing:
Modern:
BGR JUND RGB
Legacy:
URU/R Delver RU
How nessissary is Snapcaster for you guys? To me, the best case is that you pay 1UR to bolt the opp and get a 2/1 (with 16 lands, paying 2UR for a PoP is not going to happen). How good is this really? On the face of it, I'm not certain I would say this is better than Lava Spike. A 2/1 body for 1U without haste is not impressive in this deck in the slightest.
Level 1 Judge
Currently Playing:
W Death and Taxes
BGR ScapeWish Nic Fit
BGR Punishing Nic Fit
On snapcaster, I hold them like I hold my force of will. They are the only card advantage we have, and the card that makes UR better than RUG. Depending on the opponent, against maverick, rug, esper blade sculpting a hand of 1 snapcaster, 1 POP, and 1 counter will get you there.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Staple. The card is a 2/1 for two with flash. That alone allows for interesting play tricks. Now toss in the fact that he recoups something in your yard. Very very potent combination. At worst, you're making an otherwise dead lightning bolt or brainstorm in the yard appear again as #5,6, etc. With cards like PoP that's sometimes all you need to win. Delver has no problem punching others in the face from the onset of the game. Finishing off an opponent can be tricky and delver just adds so many nasty lines of play. This all is in addition to him being a threat who beats for damage. Sure, you can scoff at a 2/1, but often he's placing pressure on the opponent OR taking one for the team against a huge fatty.
@Devil...I think this directly replaces guide, but that's my opinion.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
I can see Snapcaster being more suited to a deck that sets up big plays, rather than the "consistently mediocre" plan of Burn where everything pretty much does 3 damage on average. We've already seen that UR Delver can be built in different ways and with different goals, so he's certainly useful but by no means an auto-include in every version.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Any other opinions on this? Will Vexing Devil run alongside Goblin Guide, or will Guide have come to the end of his tenure in this deck with Devil's release?
R.I.P. Sundering Titan (6/20/12) and Braids, Cabal Minion (9/12/14)
I used Delver in reference to the deck, not the card. I would have used deck tags or the complete name.
I see both as filling the same role: early beatdown. The exception is that Devil can be a threat longer into the game (scaling upward, a 2/2 vs 4/3) and/or be a 4dmg burn spell. I wouldn't remove the 'reach' of Grim, the 'utility' of Snapcaster, or the 'consistency' of Delver of Secrets. I could see Vendilion Clique come back to the maindeck as Grim #3 or 4 depending upon how the metagame shifts.
10th at SCG: Syracuse (2014), GP:NJ Last-Chance Grinder Winner (2014):: Former Legacy Mod
For Devil vs. Guide, I think time will tell. I agree with Warden that it fits in the Guide aggro slot, and you don't really want both because you don't want too many creatures in the way of Delver flipping. Otherwise they would both be playable, with Devil as more of a burn spell anyway. Personally though, I don't mind getting Guide out of there as his drawback does incrementally add up during a game, especially against opponents with Brainstorm and/or a lot of lands in the deck.
Although if you wanted to be more aggro/burn you could cut Snapcaster and/or Grim for Devil.
U G W NO Bant U G W
U G W R B Dredge! U G W R B
B G W Junk B G W
R G W B Aggro Loam R G W B
B W Deadguy B W
W Death & Taxes (almost!) W
G W Green & Taxes G W
B G W Junk & Taxes B G W
Momir Vig
Brion Stoutarm
Drana, Kalastria Bloodchief
Arcum Daggson