And I really think that FoW is not necessary, cause the UR version have to focus on kill fast as monoR with some answers the monoR dont have, just this.
Plus FoW makes the deck more accessible to players who don't want to drop the $$$ on it. It's always nice to see a competitive deck that isn't an oppressive cost. The Volcanics are a bit rough, but I guess one could get away with Steam Vents if they had to. Hopefully the game will be over before the loss of live becomes an issue.
Force of will, while not necessary in the main deck is mandatory in the 75. some match ups (such as storm) are just near impossible without it
How counterproductive is it to run Guides with Dazes/Pierces? I know they can still only drop a land each turn, but you increase the chances that they can consistently do so and get themselves out of Daze range if not Pierce range.
There seems to be some awkwardness in thinking about this deck's role. The title of the thread leaves it pretty wide open as well. I agree with Grim Lavamancer not belonging in a UR sligh/aggro type deck. Nor does FoW belong in the main. Grixis tempo is a good deck in the right environment, but positions itself very differently in most matchups.
Unfortunately my meta is infested with Combo so I'm more comfortable with more disruption. It'd be nice to play a more aggressive version at some point. =)
Here is the version I'm working on. I'm going to it's first trial tomorrow evening (small local Legacy tournament). I'm not 100% sure on the sideboard, and I'm open to suggestions.
its a basic deck the only reason im not running more spell snare and chain lightning is because that is all i own of those cards. im going to end up running 4 CL and 3 SS dropping spell pierce
its a basic deck the only reason im not running more spell snare and chain lightning is because that is all i own of those cards. im going to end up running 4 CL and 3 SS dropping spell pierce
I have not built this deck ive only played my friends and this is my other friends post so this is what I would do to this deck:
-1 arid mesa, -1 misty rainforest, +1 island, +1 mountain - This is because as of right now you have two fetches that wont get you anything
PoP and Fireblast can be just as leathal, but you can be tapped out to cast fireblast and you have FOW to back yourself, so maybe keep FoW at 3 and drop a Snapcaster for that
* Do not put vendillion Clique in this *
* I would also think of blood moon or magus in this either 1 main and 1 sb or whatever*
My reasoning of keeping grim at 3 is because that should be your creature removal, you dont want to waste chainlighting, lightning bolt, and fireblast on creature removal when most creatures in the format can be removed with 2 damage especcially locking them out in board stance.
Like you know Just my opinion take it or leave it, even though you know you will leave it hahahahahaha
tl;dr below. Here's the short version: you play a 12-fetch/8-land manabase because other parts of your deck can make use of fetches, and because such a manabase ensures the right mana producers you want in every stage of every game. Running out of targets just doesn't happen. Original post follows:
I heartily disagree with changing the lands. Let me start out with some analogous situations before looking at this deck in particular: people play four Stoneforge Mystics and two equipment. People play four Enlightened Tutor with single tutor targets. Sure you might run out of targets, but ensuring that you're able to find the specific target you want is worth the risk.
Back to the deck: you're never going to pop 12 fetches off during a game, so having enough targets for them doesn't matter. If you do pop off 8+ fetches*, you've already lost because this deck is positioned for a fast game, not a slow one. This isn't a control deck with burn. This is a burn deck with some countermagic backup.
On the flip side, a fetch-heavy build lets you play exactly the mana producers that you want for that game, lets you abuse Brainstorm much more effectively, and gives you more food for Grim.
* One more note on fetching: it's perfectly justifiable to just not get a land and proceed to shuffle, whether or not you have legal targets in the deck. You might do this because you're running an inherently mana-light deck and don't need the mana, because you already have the basics out and don't want to take additional damage from PoP, etc. I'll guarantee you that in 100 games of high level magic, you will perhaps run out of fetch targets twice**, and it won't ever matter that you ran out.
** Might happen against Stax, with geddon and recurring Wasteland destroying all of your mana-producing land. But your likelihood of facing Stax is negligible, and if Stax manages to destroy all 8 of your land, having 2 more in your deck is highly unlikely to help.
I respect that post kirbysdl, ive played against u/r delver and only once have i seen them not able to grab land . . . or just opt to fetch for nothing - me and rstevens416 actually pool cards so i am trying to given him my out look but alot of time in many decks to go through that many lands is insane
i like some of the ideas but im shady on some others. i think fire//ice might get side boarded. having 2 pop and 2 fire blast may be better main board. i could go -1 snapcaster and i would love to add another chain lightning if i can find a 4th. also having another spell snare would be a good thing, just need to get my hands on some.
Am I crazy or could Drifter il-Dal be a reasonable 1-drop evasive beater in this deck? Maybe Tattermunge Maniac? It seems like my best games involve a turn 1 Guide or Delver.
I recently saw Spindrift Drake in my boxes, fondly remembered the times it was playable, and put it back. Shadow's even more evasive than Flying, but I don't think either belong in this deck. If you test it and find out differently though, please let us know. =)
Am I crazy or could Drifter il-Dal be a reasonable 1-drop evasive beater in this deck? Maybe Tattermunge Maniac? It seems like my best games involve a turn 1 Guide or Delver.
I dont think either of these cards are vialble. drifter il_dal is a 2/1 that has a U upkeep. SO turn 1 u drop him, turn 2 u pay his upkeep, then hit your second land drop and now you are behind. Tattermunge Maniac could be decent but not nearly as good as delver or gob guide. The U/R deck is a red deck wins with some blue control. it relies on cheep, strong creatures for early pressure with burn as a finisher.
So i decided to try more of a burn approach to the deck. i took out the grims, fow, daze and spell peirce. i ended up adding stifle, lava spike, fireblast, and more pops.
An island could become a mountain to better support the bigger red component and Fireblast in particular. I'm also a little unconvinced with the use of Stifle, but I guess it's worth a test. (I'm thinking something free like Daze might fit the deck better, but I realize you took it out intentionally.) I'm also thinking that maindeck artifact destruction in the form of Smash to Smithereens makes a lot of sense in these types of decks, perhaps in the fire///ice slot. Decks without powerful maindeck artifacts seem to be getting rarer.
I dont think taking grim out is the best idea especciable when you are trying more of a burn approach because he burns, id say cut guide out or in half for it, then i like the idea of chaos warp out of the board and possible sulfiric vortex in or out of the board
@ rstevens416 you need counters to back up your burn, stifle wont go the distance, and spell snare is good only for 2 drops
Actually, Grim conflicts most with Snapcaster. At the same time, Snapcaster's something you don't necessarily need to see too many of. All you probably need is 1 at the end to double PoP them for the win. -1 Snap -2 Fire/Ice +3 Grim. (With Grim, you don't have to worry as much about "wasting" a bolt on a x/1 or x/2, so you further decrease the need for F/I.)
What do you guys think of Chain of Vapor either main or SB? Other cards that I have been thinking about are Sulfuric Vortex, Fire // Ice and Chaos Warp. I have seen all of these discussed some but I'm hoping to hear some more thoughts on them.
So i decided to try more of a burn approach to the deck. i took out the grims, fow, daze and spell peirce. i ended up adding stifle, lava spike, fireblast, and more pops.
I play a more burn oriented build and I can tell you a bit about my experience. I minimized my creatures to only Delver and Guide to maximize the chance of flipping delver and to only run the most aggressive creatures possible. I have considered putting a couple Lavamancer or Snapcaster back in but I have been really happy with my current build. I would probably add Lavamancer before Snapcaster.
Stifle is totally awesome. It frequently reads "U: Destroy target land, that land's controller loses 1 life. The land cannot be tapped for mana in response." It is almost like a Time Walk in the early game, amazing. It also shuts down SO many things. You can Stifle Stoneforge ETB trigger or vial activation, Snapcaster ETB trigger, Emrakul annihilator ability, planeswalker abilities, STORM (yep, stifling a fully powered Tendrils only gives them ONE copy), Candelabra of Tawnos, Vendilion Clique ETB ability, Lavamancer activation, equipping, Jitte and Sword of * and * triggered abilities. Pact triggers (vs. Hive Mind) ... the list goes on. Man, maybe I should be running the fourth! It is RARELY a dead card. Run it in the main, you will not be disappointed.
I strongly advocate Daze and Spell Pierce as the best MD counters for this deck. Daze allows you to tap out for the turn 1 creature and we run such a low mana curve that the "loss" of a land drop doesn't hurt so much. It has even helped me avoid taking a couple damage from my own Price of Progress. Spell Pierce is great vs. Combo and stops so many things that hurt us. We don't usually lose to creatures (because the burn oriented build tends to be faster than many creature decks) unless it is an early major fatty like Emrakul, Progenitus, etc. (and they usually got there from a non-creature spell).
Having no Force in my build MD has not been missed. I kept a couple in the sideboard for combo but usually Spell Pierce, Daze and Stifle are enough to slow down combo enough so that I can finish them without the card disadvantage that this deck really cannot afford many times. I would also have to run more blue than I want to.
I have a good gauntlet of decks myself (as you can see below) and my main testing buddy has ANT, Maverick and UR Delver (a more traditional build like my second one in the link below under "Thresh"). I have also been playing in local tournaments. Since switching to the burn build my match record vs some decks has been as follows:
Maverick 3-0 (they have to be dead before Jitte or Batterskull gains life, tight match-up)
Stoneblade 3-0 (again with the Jitte and Batterskull and the tight match-up but less so than Maverick because their clock is slower)
ANT 2-1 (Stifle and Force out of the board rule this match-up. It should be 3-0 but I kept a stupid hand with only a Daze which he paid easily)
UR Delver 1-0 (Mirror! More burn helps you win the fight faster)
Hive Mind 2-0 (Sometimes this deck is a little slower and land light and Stifle on annihilator, fetches or pact triggers is key)
Painter 2-0 (Closer games than the record would make you believe)
Burn 2-2 (Tough match-up as they are faster and quite consistent. Removing Force and increasing the burn helped. This was an auto-loss before with a standard build)
Affinity 2-1 (You MUST have a way to get rid of Vault Skirge or the life gain from Plating or Ravager counters will kill you)
Hypergenesis 2-0 (Counters and Stifle kill this deck)
Sneak and Show 1-0 (Stifle your Emrakul Annihilator? Kill you?)
Soul Sisters 0-2 (Life gain is too much)
Goblins 0-1 (Just overwhelmed me)
I believe if the metagame was RUG Thresh, Stoneblade and Maverick (which it mainly is) that Burn would dominate all those decks (which it has to some degree) but combo keeps burn in check. My deck has an improved match-up vs. combo and is nearly as fast and as consistent as burn. However, like burn, this deck is very weak to life gain, hence my recent addition of Sulfuric Vortex in the side, maybe it has a place in the main? Rift Bolt is probably currently the weakest card in my build.
Anyways, sorry for the wall of text but this is currently my favorite deck and I would like to see more discussion. The deck has been good (but underrepresented) at recent SCG Opens and I think a more burn oriented build might be even better.
I have built this deck for a Legacy tournament next weekend.
In a meta filled with U/W Stoneblade, Esper Stoneblade, Maverick, a few High Tide, one Hive Mind, and one Dredge, what would you guys recommend for a sideboard?
not sure if this is the thread for UR delver burn, but if it is, thunderous wrath from AVR seems awesome. the problem is it can be a dead card a lot in your opening hand, unless you have brainstorm. could this make pyrokinesis more playable? my friend main decked 2 pyros at SCG Sacramento, with a goblin deck, and top 4'ed the event. he said pyro was whopping on mavrick all day.
not sure if this is the thread for UR delver burn, but if it is, thunderous wrath from AVR seems awesome. the problem is it can be a dead card a lot in your opening hand, unless you have brainstorm. could this make pyrokinesis more playable? my friend main decked 2 pyros at SCG Sacramento, with a goblin deck, and top 4'ed the event. he said pyro was whopping on mavrick all day.
Thunderous Wrath ooks pretty incredible paired with brainstorm and even ponder. I like that it gives you a little more of a reason to play UR over just mono burn.
I used to have pyro in my board in goblins and tried it in burn, it can definitely win games on it's own against certain decks.
With a burn oriented build I guess 4 brainstorm is good enough.
:symw:Death and Taxes:symw:
:symr:Burn:symr:
Mono Black Control
Force of will, while not necessary in the main deck is mandatory in the 75. some match ups (such as storm) are just near impossible without it
There seems to be some awkwardness in thinking about this deck's role. The title of the thread leaves it pretty wide open as well. I agree with Grim Lavamancer not belonging in a UR sligh/aggro type deck. Nor does FoW belong in the main. Grixis tempo is a good deck in the right environment, but positions itself very differently in most matchups.
Unfortunately my meta is infested with Combo so I'm more comfortable with more disruption. It'd be nice to play a more aggressive version at some point. =)
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
4 Goblin Guide
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Price of Progress
3 Island
3 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Arid Mesa
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Taiga
2 Surgical Extractions
3 Smash to Smithereens
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
2 Chaos Warp
Thanks!
Footsteps Hulk
Ascendency Combo
Restore Balance
Ad Nauseam
EDH:
Ghave Lands
Narset Combo
4 goblin guides
3 grim lavamancers
4 snapcaster mage
Spells (25)
4 brainstorm
2 daze
3 force of will
4 lightning bolt
2 price of progress
2 spell pierce
1 spell snare
3 chain lightning
2 ponder
2 fire // ice
4 arid mesa
4 misty rainforest
4 scalding tarn
4 volcanic island
2 mountain
2 island
its a basic deck the only reason im not running more spell snare and chain lightning is because that is all i own of those cards. im going to end up running 4 CL and 3 SS dropping spell pierce
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
I have not built this deck ive only played my friends and this is my other friends post so this is what I would do to this deck:
-1 arid mesa, -1 misty rainforest, +1 island, +1 mountain - This is because as of right now you have two fetches that wont get you anything
* your land / fetch ratio is off. *
-1 FoW, +1 snare, -1 PoP, +1 Fireblast, -1 Snapcaster, +1 Chainlightning / Daze
PoP and Fireblast can be just as leathal, but you can be tapped out to cast fireblast and you have FOW to back yourself, so maybe keep FoW at 3 and drop a Snapcaster for that
* Do not put vendillion Clique in this *
* I would also think of blood moon or magus in this either 1 main and 1 sb or whatever*
My reasoning of keeping grim at 3 is because that should be your creature removal, you dont want to waste chainlighting, lightning bolt, and fireblast on creature removal when most creatures in the format can be removed with 2 damage especcially locking them out in board stance.
Like you know Just my opinion take it or leave it, even though you know you will leave it hahahahahaha
I heartily disagree with changing the lands. Let me start out with some analogous situations before looking at this deck in particular: people play four Stoneforge Mystics and two equipment. People play four Enlightened Tutor with single tutor targets. Sure you might run out of targets, but ensuring that you're able to find the specific target you want is worth the risk.
Back to the deck: you're never going to pop 12 fetches off during a game, so having enough targets for them doesn't matter. If you do pop off 8+ fetches*, you've already lost because this deck is positioned for a fast game, not a slow one. This isn't a control deck with burn. This is a burn deck with some countermagic backup.
On the flip side, a fetch-heavy build lets you play exactly the mana producers that you want for that game, lets you abuse Brainstorm much more effectively, and gives you more food for Grim.
* One more note on fetching: it's perfectly justifiable to just not get a land and proceed to shuffle, whether or not you have legal targets in the deck. You might do this because you're running an inherently mana-light deck and don't need the mana, because you already have the basics out and don't want to take additional damage from PoP, etc. I'll guarantee you that in 100 games of high level magic, you will perhaps run out of fetch targets twice**, and it won't ever matter that you ran out.
** Might happen against Stax, with geddon and recurring Wasteland destroying all of your mana-producing land. But your likelihood of facing Stax is negligible, and if Stax manages to destroy all 8 of your land, having 2 more in your deck is highly unlikely to help.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I dont think either of these cards are vialble. drifter il_dal is a 2/1 that has a U upkeep. SO turn 1 u drop him, turn 2 u pay his upkeep, then hit your second land drop and now you are behind. Tattermunge Maniac could be decent but not nearly as good as delver or gob guide. The U/R deck is a red deck wins with some blue control. it relies on cheep, strong creatures for early pressure with burn as a finisher.
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Goblin Guide
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Grim Lavamancer
Dig (7)
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
Countermagic (9)
2x Daze
2x Spell Snare
3x Spell Pierce
2x Force of Will
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
3x Price Progress
Land (18)
3x Arid Mesa
3x Misty Rainforest
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Volcanic Island
3x Mountain
2x Island
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Submerge
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Smash to Smithereens
2x Pyroblast
2x Hydroblast
4 Delver of secrets
4 goblin guides
4 snapcaster mage
Spells (28)
4 brainstorm
2 Lava Spike
2 fireblast
4 lightning bolt
3 price of progress
3 Stifle
2 spell snare
4 chain lightning
2 ponder
2 fire // ice
4 arid mesa
4 misty rainforest
4 scalding tarn
4 volcanic island
2 mountain
2 island
any suggestions?
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
@ rstevens416 you need counters to back up your burn, stifle wont go the distance, and spell snare is good only for 2 drops
what do you think!
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
I play a more burn oriented build and I can tell you a bit about my experience. I minimized my creatures to only Delver and Guide to maximize the chance of flipping delver and to only run the most aggressive creatures possible. I have considered putting a couple Lavamancer or Snapcaster back in but I have been really happy with my current build. I would probably add Lavamancer before Snapcaster.
Stifle is totally awesome. It frequently reads "U: Destroy target land, that land's controller loses 1 life. The land cannot be tapped for mana in response." It is almost like a Time Walk in the early game, amazing. It also shuts down SO many things. You can Stifle Stoneforge ETB trigger or vial activation, Snapcaster ETB trigger, Emrakul annihilator ability, planeswalker abilities, STORM (yep, stifling a fully powered Tendrils only gives them ONE copy), Candelabra of Tawnos, Vendilion Clique ETB ability, Lavamancer activation, equipping, Jitte and Sword of * and * triggered abilities. Pact triggers (vs. Hive Mind) ... the list goes on. Man, maybe I should be running the fourth! It is RARELY a dead card. Run it in the main, you will not be disappointed.
I strongly advocate Daze and Spell Pierce as the best MD counters for this deck. Daze allows you to tap out for the turn 1 creature and we run such a low mana curve that the "loss" of a land drop doesn't hurt so much. It has even helped me avoid taking a couple damage from my own Price of Progress. Spell Pierce is great vs. Combo and stops so many things that hurt us. We don't usually lose to creatures (because the burn oriented build tends to be faster than many creature decks) unless it is an early major fatty like Emrakul, Progenitus, etc. (and they usually got there from a non-creature spell).
Having no Force in my build MD has not been missed. I kept a couple in the sideboard for combo but usually Spell Pierce, Daze and Stifle are enough to slow down combo enough so that I can finish them without the card disadvantage that this deck really cannot afford many times. I would also have to run more blue than I want to.
I have a good gauntlet of decks myself (as you can see below) and my main testing buddy has ANT, Maverick and UR Delver (a more traditional build like my second one in the link below under "Thresh"). I have also been playing in local tournaments. Since switching to the burn build my match record vs some decks has been as follows:
Maverick 3-0 (they have to be dead before Jitte or Batterskull gains life, tight match-up)
Stoneblade 3-0 (again with the Jitte and Batterskull and the tight match-up but less so than Maverick because their clock is slower)
ANT 2-1 (Stifle and Force out of the board rule this match-up. It should be 3-0 but I kept a stupid hand with only a Daze which he paid easily)
UR Delver 1-0 (Mirror! More burn helps you win the fight faster)
Hive Mind 2-0 (Sometimes this deck is a little slower and land light and Stifle on annihilator, fetches or pact triggers is key)
Painter 2-0 (Closer games than the record would make you believe)
Burn 2-2 (Tough match-up as they are faster and quite consistent. Removing Force and increasing the burn helped. This was an auto-loss before with a standard build)
Affinity 2-1 (You MUST have a way to get rid of Vault Skirge or the life gain from Plating or Ravager counters will kill you)
Hypergenesis 2-0 (Counters and Stifle kill this deck)
Sneak and Show 1-0 (Stifle your Emrakul Annihilator? Kill you?)
Soul Sisters 0-2 (Life gain is too much)
Goblins 0-1 (Just overwhelmed me)
I believe if the metagame was RUG Thresh, Stoneblade and Maverick (which it mainly is) that Burn would dominate all those decks (which it has to some degree) but combo keeps burn in check. My deck has an improved match-up vs. combo and is nearly as fast and as consistent as burn. However, like burn, this deck is very weak to life gain, hence my recent addition of Sulfuric Vortex in the side, maybe it has a place in the main? Rift Bolt is probably currently the weakest card in my build.
Anyways, sorry for the wall of text but this is currently my favorite deck and I would like to see more discussion. The deck has been good (but underrepresented) at recent SCG Opens and I think a more burn oriented build might be even better.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
In a meta filled with U/W Stoneblade, Esper Stoneblade, Maverick, a few High Tide, one Hive Mind, and one Dredge, what would you guys recommend for a sideboard?
Thunderous Wrath ooks pretty incredible paired with brainstorm and even ponder. I like that it gives you a little more of a reason to play UR over just mono burn.
I used to have pyro in my board in goblins and tried it in burn, it can definitely win games on it's own against certain decks.