Currently testing 2 Copter in the MD, together with 1 Warping Wail. I know the manabase is shaky but as a 1of it's been performing well for me.
I could always bring in a 3rd Copter, replacing the 1of Echoing Truth or the Warping Wail. Trading with a Delver isn't the worst thing in the world but it always feels slightly underwhelming whenever that happens. I do like the looting effect when it happens though.
And big congrats to FANAttIC for repping us at Bologna!
In 3 days I saw zero Merfolk decks (and I lurked like it is my job) in both formats, which was dissapointing but at least no one could accuse me of being on the easy mode (according to them :)).
Hello!
I would like to ask some comments on what I've posted some time ago, I don't want to be annoying but I think I'm onto something not to disdain.:
8 "free" counters: Daze makes me feel more confortable and secure, turn 1 IslandAether Vial GO or simply Island GO is a strong start; with this smooth list and its interactivity, Daze never resulted in a dead card
no more Phantasmal Image that more often than not disappointed me with no interesting targets or too many of them in hand.
I don't like Umezawa's Jitte, even when I was playing 2 of them it seemed so random; if you need it, you can insert it in your sideboard, but without tutors is still random. Maybe against D&T you can also board in Phantasmal Image to copy their Stoneforge Mystic, but even so it's a reactive approach that costs 4 slots in the sideboard.
You can use up to 2 Wasteland, cutting 1 Island and 1 Cavern of Souls.
Thanks!
Hi.
I didn't want to comment then because my list is different and no need to spam the board with my comments.
I like this list more now because Delver is on the rise so there might be some room for Harbingers (targets in Legacy before the ban were Delver, Eldrazi and Marit Lage, which were not enough for its inclusion). After ban I noticed more Burn and UR Delver decks, free from Counterbalance tyranny, so Harbinger looks playable.
Daze vs Chalice, still up for debate, in my experience Daze impacts my tempo and 1-for-1 my opponent while Chalice shuts down 25-50% of their spells. One is free, the other is 2 mana. As said before, more low to the ground (nonAbrupt Decay) decks are viable after Top got the boot and I am inclined to countinue playing CotV.
This list looks more beautiful because of numbers, than optimal. 12 Islands is a bare minimum for Daze or two, and 4 Daze might be too much, the same is true with 4 Daze and 8 3-drops.
But, we have no Pro to copy from, we are all "alone" in our quest to beat our meta. If this list works for you, great!
More beats is certainly an approach - I just worry that it gets picked apart by the likes of Umezawa's Jitte. I'm also strongly in favor of Chalice of the Void - Delver and Storm are everywhere, and that card slams the door on them hard. I wouldn't run 0 Daze, but I also wouldn't run 4.
Pretty much the moment I make this post I'm heading out of town (going to RPGLB and couching for the YsCelceta run on Tuesday) and won't have internet access for a week, so I won't be able to make any more posts during that time.
no more Phantasmal Image that more often than not disappointed me with no interesting targets or too many of them in hand.
This is a sign you haven't played with Phantasmal Image enough. It is the card with by far the highest ceiling, and the floor is not nearly as low as you believe it is. I *rarely* get stuck with Phantasmal uselessly in my hand. You often need to think a little sideways to really exploit the true power of the card.
8 "free" counters: Daze makes me feel more confortable and secure, turn 1 Island Aether Vial GO or simply Island GO is a strong start; with this smooth list and its interactivity, Daze never resulted in a dead card
This sounds like you play with bad opponents that don't know how to play around Daze, that would be the most reasonable explanation for why you feel that Daze is never a dead card. Daze is especially bad in the current meta with so many Deathrite Shamans running around. Island-GO with daze is a miserable opening, as when you actually use that Daze you pretty much straight up timewalk yourself. You will more than likely lose that game due to the tempo loss. The right number of Daze you should run is just barely enough to make your opponent start respecting it. Why? let's consider the 4 main situations w.r.t. Daze:
1. Opponent does not play around Daze, you don't have Daze => +0 (Neutral)
2. Opponent does not play around Daze, you have the Daze => +3 (Major advantage)
3. Opponent plays around Daze, you don't have Daze => +1 (Minor advantage)
4. Opponent plays around Daze, you have the Daze => -2 (Moderate disadvantage)
The goal is to maximize situations 2 and 3 and minimize situation 4. The way to do that is to create uncertainty in the opponent whether or not they should play around Daze or not. Playing all 4 daze is a double-whammy in this regard. By doing so, you make it optimal for the opponent to always play around the Daze and you'll draw Daze more often, which maximizes situation 4 two different ways. Playing no dazes makes it optimal for the opponent to never play around Daze, which while not actively bad for us isn't an optimal strategy. Playing 1-2 dazes is enough to make the opponent have to respect Daze, but not too much. By forcing the opponent to make a decision every turn (rather than just once at the beginning of the match) whether to play around Daze or not, you create the most openings for situations 2 and 3.
Unfortunately, I'm giving up on the Tidal Warrior experiment. The proportion of blue decks in the meta hasn't gone down at all, which means that Tidal Warrior is more often than not a dead card in the MD. I did consider moving it to the SB, but I prefer Tidebinder Mage in the non-blue deck hoser slot, as it also happens to hit Deathrite.
While the Warrior itself has been disappointing, it has enabled the use of Smuggler's Copter, which has performed admirably for me. I might continue to keep Copter in the deck as a 1of, with the Warriors making way for the 4th Vial, 4th Chalice (still really good in the new meta) and a Harbinger of the Tides.
I noticed that also (for Tidal Warrior), it seems that Delver is unleashed from oppression, but I need more data.
Might decrease Tidal from 3 to 2 since D&T and Lands are still there.
I don't see Tidebinder yet, but Harbinger is coming in for sure.
3 Copters were great and I have to test/think if fourth has a place or if that stretches the deck too much.
Need some time to see who our Overlord is so I can properly hate them out
4 is definitely too much. Just as how we don't run 4 Phantasmal Image because they're bad in multiples without any other creatures, we should also keep Copter to 3 at most.
Well, that's fair. But Copter isn't like Image in that the ceiling is much lower (Image can outright win you the game vs Show and Tell or Reanimator) and it's way worse in multiples than Image, since Image can copy 2 of the same creature while Copter can't really do that.
After testing, I think Copter can be considered as a 1-2of.
Dear Merfolk forum, let me tell you all about how I bought a 40$ Thought-Knot Seer today!
Mostly thought I want to get your thoughts on this bizzarre sideboard that I decided to try out. The list that I registered at the 40$ GP side-event is
This idea for 4 Needles in the board came about when I was trying to make a sideboard to reliably deal with Marit Lage. I also wanted something faster than Relic to handle the hyper fast grave-based combo decks like BR Reanimator but more versatile than Faerie Macabre. I think Cage is the most powerful option and I think we need at least 4 grave hate to reliably beat these decks. Without Relic to handle the green creatures, I added 4 Tidebinder.
I didn't get much testing done before the event, playing mostly against combo decks on XMage but I beat them all while still beating the fair blue decks, which is a good sign since this is what this SB is designed to do.
One thing is certain though; I don't think I've ever had a SB that had a better shot against Elves! I'm anxious to test the matchup and see if 4 Cage, 4 Needle, 4 Tidebinder, 4 Chalice is enough! The SB plan I envision is +4 Cage, +4 Tidebinder Mage, +4 Needle, +1 Swan Song, -4 Vial, -4 CC, -3 Daze, -2 Phantasmal Image.
Flooding the board with Needles also sounds interesting against D&T.
I also wanted to give Daze a shot as more than a 1-of. It was really poor against Miracles so perhaps it is better now. Additionally, with 4 Tidebinder Mages, Daze gets theoretically better against the DRS decks.
The tournament report:
I took some notes about the matches I played:
M1: 4c Delver, win roll (2-1)
G1: I keep a hand with Island, Cavern, Chalice, x,x,x,x. My T2 Chalice gets Forced and my Cavern gets wasted. I never drew another land.
SB: -4 Force, +1 Echoing Truth, +3 Tidebinder
G2: He has the T1 Delver but Chalice resolves. T3 TNN and T4 double lord is met with Deluge, but I have TNN + Lord backup to end the game 2 attack steps later.
SB: +4 Force (stupid Deluge), -2 Daze, -2 Tidebinder
G3 again sees Chalice on 1 resolves but I don't have much else going on so I a Force a Young Pyro. Another one hits the table and my opponent starts firing 1 drops into Chalice to make tokens and is able to get me down to 9 with the tokens while I only draw lands and x/1's. Fortuitously, I find Echoing Truth to wipe the tokens and get on the beatdown plan. Opponent takes the trade of Young Pyro for Silvergil and finds an Angler. I counter with a TNN and a Lord (at last!) which somehow doesn't get decayed and I win.
M2: Pox, loose roll (0-2)
G1: I mull to 6. Very close game. I spare you the details but I ended up at 2 life with 2 Silvergils vs him at 6 life with a Bloodghast (can't block) and a summoning sick DRS (treatening to win the game next turn). With a Vial on 2, I swing with the 2 Silvergils. He realizes that if I topdecked a lord and he doesn't block, then I win. He thinks a lot, picks up my grave, counts 3 Lords. 'No blocks' :(. At least I made him sweat by activating Vial before scooping.
G2: I get rolled, basically. I mull to 6, he plays Thoughtseize into DRS and I choose to name Liliana of the Veil with my Needle because (a) I have 2 other Needles and 4 Tidebinders in the deck to deal with DRS (b) DRS is not too scary right now while Liliana next turn ends the game on the spot. I still think this is correct but my opponent thinks I should have named DRS.
M3: Food Chain, loose roll (1-2)
G1: He makes a T1 DRS and cantrips twice before my T2 Chalice resolves. He then Manipulate Fate and I Clique his draw step hoping to snag a Food Chain. Instead I see Manipulate Fate, Griffin, DRS, land, land. I let him keep it. On his next turn, I Force a Sylvan Library (I think pitching TNN) because having islandwalk is going to be key in wining this game and I don't want him to start drawing Decays and stuff. He ended up drawing Force, Force, Force and countering every one of my lords while making a 3/3 flyer every turn.
SB: -1 Jitte, -4 Chalice, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Swan Song, +3 Tidebinder. IDK if this is correct. I think Chalice > Tidebinder here.
G2: I have a very fast hand where I get him to 6 on T4 with a board of CC + 2x Lord + 2x Muta so even his Deluge can't save him.
G3: I keep a hand of Cavern, Vial, Vial, E Truth, Clique, TNN, CC. He fires a T2 Hymn which nabs E Truth + Clique. T3 he has EE to clean up my Vials (and I even think it a good idea to Vial in my CC in response to EE activation! ?!?) I miss a couple land drops and Griffins end up burrying me.
M4: UB Reanimator, loose roll (2-1)
G1: He exhumes Griselbrand. I make a copy of it with Cavern of Illusion. We each draw 14 and trade Griselbrands. I draw garbage and he reanimates Tidespout Tyrant to bounce my board.
G2: I mull to 6 and make a T1 Vial into T2 Chalice on 1 and Force his Exhume but he has the Force backup and Griselbrand enters the battlefield with me hellbent. I topdeck Image(!), vial it in mid combat and he draws 14 trying to target it but fails. He scoops because I win on the swingback.
G3: I keep a hand of Swan Song, CC, Force, Vial, Karakas, Cavern, Island. He has a weak T1 of Careful Study with no creatures to discard. We play draw-go a lot because I want to have Swan Song + Force up and mana to plough trough Daze. He eventually goes for Entomb on Tyrant + Exhume and I Swan Song it. With 6 lands and a pair of Vials in play, I make Chalice on 2 (stops Exhume and lets me play Cage if I draw it). I eventually find Cage and mount an offensive of CC, Silvergil, Lord vs Swan. At 5, he is forced to Decay the Lord to not die. I proceed to draw 5 lands in a row but his situation is bad enough that I still end up on top (he has to deal with Chalice AND Cage if he wants to Exhume/Animate something-- Reanimate doesn't play anymore because of his low life total.)
This 2-2 was good enough for 40 points at the prize wall and I opted for Thoughtknot Seer over a Mirrodin Besieged booster.
I think a recent booster is 4$ CAD so 40 points should be 16$ CAD if you're going with this linear conversion scheme, but obviously the tournament organizers value boosters less than Thought-knot Seers (which goes for 10$ CAD).
The TO was Game Keeper, which is a store I actively try to avoid. I did enjoy the high level of competition at the event though, so I'm glad I went.
Did your results make you consider making any changes to the 75?
I still like the idea of the 75, but I definitely need more practice with the deck, and especially against more archetypes to make any kind of informed conclusion.
It's gonna take time since I don't play a lot (I have 2 young kids) but I'll report back eventually. I did explode another BR Reanimator last night on XMage though
Hey guys, been a LONG time lurker on this thread. I have played merfolk in modern for a few years, and have played Legacy any chance I can get. This thread has always been super helpful, and I love the discussion that is constantly running here.
This is my current list, that I was running at a small weekly last night. I realized how dumb I was, and forgot a 15th card for the sideboard. I believe I was going to run Vclique. In hindsight, they probably would never have come in. (EDIT 1/2 way through post: I just remembered why I only had 14. a friend was going to let me borrow 1x flusterstorm and it never happened. That would have seen some play) I am Dazeless (took them out of my normal list) and Chaliceless (don't own them, debating on whether to pull the trigger and buy). This iteration leans heavily towards disrupting the opponents mana as a resource
Creatures (27):
4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergil Adept
4x Master of the Pearl Trident
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x True-Name Nemesis
2x Smuggler's Copter
2x Tidal Warrior
3x Phantasmal Image
Artifacts (5):
4x Aether Vial
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Spells(8):
2x Stifle
2x Spell Pierce
4x Force of Will
Lands(20):
2x Cavern of Souls
3x Mutavault
4x Wasteland
11x Island
Sideboard:
2x Graffdigger's cage
2x Submerge
2x Dismember
2x Harbinger of Tides
1x Spell Pierce
2x Pithing Needle
2x Echoing Truth
1x Null Rod
The weekly was a little over a dozen players. I was expecting a heavy storm/delver meta.
M1: [Win] Vs. Grixis Delver (2-1)
G1 (on the play)
Kept what I thought was a good opener, mix of lands and creatures. His was apparently better, as he jokingly showed it to the next guy over and asked if this was good. I T1 cursecatcher, he T1 Delvers. when I offered up the trade, he took it, then forced my silvergil. His T2 was delver Delver. They flipped next turn, I played nothing relevant.
G2 (on the play)
Good interactive game. Took him off tempo stifling first fetch. Couple of counter wars. Eventually TNN comes down off of Cavern, and it was the key to victory.
G3 (on the draw)
He had to mull to 5, so I spent T1 and 2 doing nothing with a stifle up. He assumed I had a slow draw and on T3 popped 2 fetches with 1 basic in. I stifled the first, he force pitched force. Now he had plenty of resources, but no real gas in hand. A couple lords, a wasteland and TNN sewed that game up.
M2: [WIN] Vs. Jund (2-0)
G1 (on the play?)
Forcing an early Liliana eventually lead to a win. it became a goyf v. truename battle. a 3rd phantasmal image copying another true name got me there.
G2 (on the draw)
The first appearance of Roflcopter, and it did work! Enabled me to smooth my draw, got in 6 points of damage. I always seemed to have the right cards for this match, and I feel a large part of it was because of this. I copied one goyf, then got TNN online.
M3: [LOSS] Vs. Jeskai Stoneblade (2-1)
G1 (on the draw)
Got mauled by batterskull and SoFaI. Nothing to really see there. Stifle made a brief appearance for a fetch early, but got dazed. Since I have removed them from my deck, it appears I forgot that the card exists. Also, played Roflcopter, but he kept swordsing it's crew.
G2 (on the play)
Stifle got him T1. He started playing around it, but it was too little too late. The only threat he eventually landed was a JTMS, which got echoing truthed on my turn, and then wasted him off of his tundra (4th mana source).
G3 (on the draw)
This was my major punt for the day. Midgame, I had a Lord of Atlantis on board, he had a TNN. He started racing me, TNN against my Mutavault. And I FORGOT MY LORD. As the game would have concluded, he got me while on 1. If I had remembered the Lord just one time out of the 3 turn cycles he could have attacked, I would've had that game.
M4 [WIN] vs. Red Gomblin Stompy(?)
(Pre match notes: The guy told me it was mostly a brew)
G1 (on the draw)
Hand I kept: 2x Wasteland 2x Island, Silvergil adept, spell pierce, TNN
He goes T2, Badlands, exile Simian spirit, exile Simian spirit, Goblin Rabblemaster, enter combat, make a goblin, swing for 1. I went T1, waste your badlands. (New lesson to learn: Don't try to tempo an aggro deck!) He goes mountain, swing for 6.
I went in the tank, thought about it and realized I had about 0 outs. Go to game 2 with only showing him a single waste.
G2 (on the play)
All I really remember from this game was him trying for Jaya Balard (forced) and then slamming a Boldwyr Heavyweights. For those of you who have never seen this card (like me) it is an 8/8 Trample for 4. but it has an ETB trigger that allows their opponent to go find a creature card and put it on the battlefield. So I went and found a True-Name to pair with my other true name, and then imaged a true name. And thus won the damage race.
G3 (on the draw)
Roflcopter made a second appearance, and once again, did great work. Didn't even use the looting ability that much, just was nice to have another form of evasion against a nonblue deck, while granting all my creatures pseudo haste. Another Boldwyr gave me a 2nd Truename, but it was honestly a "win-more" moment at that point.
Overall, it was a great night. I had a blast, got to try some new things, learned some valuable lessons, and above all, I got to play Legacy. I know that a single result at a small weekly is absolutely nothing to base any sort of conclusion off of, but I really did enjoy the inclusion of the Smuggler's copter. I have a third copy, and am debating on adding it, but going to stick with this current list for a few more times. I didn't see tidal warrior often, so can't speak much to his inclusion. Stifle was RARELY a dead card, and the psychological effect of playing it was more than noticeable.
Curious as to thoughts and reactions. Also, if I can get more chances to play, will happily put up more reports if it is requested. If they are too wordy, or just plain not helpful, let me know, I won't take offense! Cheers!
Stifle is fun and definitely not expected from our deck, I am just not sure we have the time to leave open mana, especially with only 11 Islands.
I would be ecstatic if they reprint that in Modern, though.
With four counters in the main that demands an Island, and few more cards in the sideboard (another Pierce, Submerges and Truths), -2 Waste, +1 Muta and Island or +2 Island should make your plan possible.
I still think Chalices are mandatory (and maybe even better than ever, other than Treasure Cruise times), but Chaliceless versions had success before so that might be personal preference.
Just like my love for Relic of Progenitus, that card is always in 75, if legal.
In the absence of Chalice, the mana denial plan with Stifle is interresting. I am off of Wasteland entirely at the moment but I remember when I was playing 2 (as an out to Glacial Chasm and what not), I always regretted the times when I used Wasteland as a mean to mana screw my opponent because it usually ended up screwing me more than my opponent.
For instance: make land drop #4, waste their dual or whatever, then they waste my Cavern/Mutavault and I all of a sudden I can't cast this topdecked TNN/Clique.
Between this kind of scenario and the fact that we sometimes want to hardcast Force and Silvergils, I found Wasteland very underwhelming in our deck.
But that being said, I always wondered if a more dedicated mana denial build could work. So yea, I'm definitely interested in reading more reports from you DickWatson.
Also, have you considered playing some Warping Wails in your 75? They are great at killing Deathrite Shamans among other things.
It's something I've said before, but with only 2 wastelands "mana denial" is a wrong mindset to have. They exist as surgical answers to problem utility lands and absolutely should not be fired off just because you can. I've tapped wastelands for mana quite a lot.
I played stifle as a fun-of in my pre-chalice days and it did many good things for me. I don't like it with chalice, which of course doesn't apply if uh, you don't have chalices.
Yea it's an easy mistake to make. You think "I don't have a use for this many lands, I might as well try to take this guy off of black.", but the extra colorless land turns out to be relevant a surprising number of times vs what wasting actually accomplishes.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/FishMTG/comments/69znj0/smuggling_fish_at_gp_bologna/?st=j2hb7l09&sh=1346f2c0
I could always bring in a 3rd Copter, replacing the 1of Echoing Truth or the Warping Wail. Trading with a Delver isn't the worst thing in the world but it always feels slightly underwhelming whenever that happens. I do like the looting effect when it happens though.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD07423W/
http://www.hareruyamtg.com/en/k/kD27972S/
Pretty standard lists, with one playing Daze.
Zombies in Legacy? Now I am curious!
Oh and grats btw!
UGTatyova, Benthic DruidUG | RBRakdos the DefilerRB | RNorin the WaryR | BGThelon of HavenwoodBG
Did Needles, Misdirections and BtBs did anything for you?
Hi.
I didn't want to comment then because my list is different and no need to spam the board with my comments.
I like this list more now because Delver is on the rise so there might be some room for Harbingers (targets in Legacy before the ban were Delver, Eldrazi and Marit Lage, which were not enough for its inclusion). After ban I noticed more Burn and UR Delver decks, free from Counterbalance tyranny, so Harbinger looks playable.
Daze vs Chalice, still up for debate, in my experience Daze impacts my tempo and 1-for-1 my opponent while Chalice shuts down 25-50% of their spells. One is free, the other is 2 mana. As said before, more low to the ground (nonAbrupt Decay) decks are viable after Top got the boot and I am inclined to countinue playing CotV.
This list looks more beautiful because of numbers, than optimal. 12 Islands is a bare minimum for Daze or two, and 4 Daze might be too much, the same is true with 4 Daze and 8 3-drops.
But, we have no Pro to copy from, we are all "alone" in our quest to beat our meta. If this list works for you, great!
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
This is a sign you haven't played with Phantasmal Image enough. It is the card with by far the highest ceiling, and the floor is not nearly as low as you believe it is. I *rarely* get stuck with Phantasmal uselessly in my hand. You often need to think a little sideways to really exploit the true power of the card.
This sounds like you play with bad opponents that don't know how to play around Daze, that would be the most reasonable explanation for why you feel that Daze is never a dead card. Daze is especially bad in the current meta with so many Deathrite Shamans running around. Island-GO with daze is a miserable opening, as when you actually use that Daze you pretty much straight up timewalk yourself. You will more than likely lose that game due to the tempo loss. The right number of Daze you should run is just barely enough to make your opponent start respecting it. Why? let's consider the 4 main situations w.r.t. Daze:
1. Opponent does not play around Daze, you don't have Daze => +0 (Neutral)
2. Opponent does not play around Daze, you have the Daze => +3 (Major advantage)
3. Opponent plays around Daze, you don't have Daze => +1 (Minor advantage)
4. Opponent plays around Daze, you have the Daze => -2 (Moderate disadvantage)
The goal is to maximize situations 2 and 3 and minimize situation 4. The way to do that is to create uncertainty in the opponent whether or not they should play around Daze or not. Playing all 4 daze is a double-whammy in this regard. By doing so, you make it optimal for the opponent to always play around the Daze and you'll draw Daze more often, which maximizes situation 4 two different ways. Playing no dazes makes it optimal for the opponent to never play around Daze, which while not actively bad for us isn't an optimal strategy. Playing 1-2 dazes is enough to make the opponent have to respect Daze, but not too much. By forcing the opponent to make a decision every turn (rather than just once at the beginning of the match) whether to play around Daze or not, you create the most openings for situations 2 and 3.
Twitch channel
While the Warrior itself has been disappointing, it has enabled the use of Smuggler's Copter, which has performed admirably for me. I might continue to keep Copter in the deck as a 1of, with the Warriors making way for the 4th Vial, 4th Chalice (still really good in the new meta) and a Harbinger of the Tides.
Might decrease Tidal from 3 to 2 since D&T and Lands are still there.
I don't see Tidebinder yet, but Harbinger is coming in for sure.
3 Copters were great and I have to test/think if fourth has a place or if that stretches the deck too much.
Need some time to see who our Overlord is so I can properly hate them out
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
After testing, I think Copter can be considered as a 1-2of.
Mostly thought I want to get your thoughts on this bizzarre sideboard that I decided to try out. The list that I registered at the 40$ GP side-event is
4 Mutavault
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Pithing Needle
4 Tidebinder Mage
1 Echoing Truth
1 Swan Song
1 Karakas
Remarks on the build:
This idea for 4 Needles in the board came about when I was trying to make a sideboard to reliably deal with Marit Lage. I also wanted something faster than Relic to handle the hyper fast grave-based combo decks like BR Reanimator but more versatile than Faerie Macabre. I think Cage is the most powerful option and I think we need at least 4 grave hate to reliably beat these decks. Without Relic to handle the green creatures, I added 4 Tidebinder.
I didn't get much testing done before the event, playing mostly against combo decks on XMage but I beat them all while still beating the fair blue decks, which is a good sign since this is what this SB is designed to do.
One thing is certain though; I don't think I've ever had a SB that had a better shot against Elves! I'm anxious to test the matchup and see if 4 Cage, 4 Needle, 4 Tidebinder, 4 Chalice is enough! The SB plan I envision is +4 Cage, +4 Tidebinder Mage, +4 Needle, +1 Swan Song, -4 Vial, -4 CC, -3 Daze, -2 Phantasmal Image.
Flooding the board with Needles also sounds interesting against D&T.
I also wanted to give Daze a shot as more than a 1-of. It was really poor against Miracles so perhaps it is better now. Additionally, with 4 Tidebinder Mages, Daze gets theoretically better against the DRS decks.
The tournament report:
I took some notes about the matches I played:
M1: 4c Delver, win roll (2-1)
G1: I keep a hand with Island, Cavern, Chalice, x,x,x,x. My T2 Chalice gets Forced and my Cavern gets wasted. I never drew another land.
SB: -4 Force, +1 Echoing Truth, +3 Tidebinder
G2: He has the T1 Delver but Chalice resolves. T3 TNN and T4 double lord is met with Deluge, but I have TNN + Lord backup to end the game 2 attack steps later.
SB: +4 Force (stupid Deluge), -2 Daze, -2 Tidebinder
G3 again sees Chalice on 1 resolves but I don't have much else going on so I a Force a Young Pyro. Another one hits the table and my opponent starts firing 1 drops into Chalice to make tokens and is able to get me down to 9 with the tokens while I only draw lands and x/1's. Fortuitously, I find Echoing Truth to wipe the tokens and get on the beatdown plan. Opponent takes the trade of Young Pyro for Silvergil and finds an Angler. I counter with a TNN and a Lord (at last!) which somehow doesn't get decayed and I win.
M2: Pox, loose roll (0-2)
G1: I mull to 6. Very close game. I spare you the details but I ended up at 2 life with 2 Silvergils vs him at 6 life with a Bloodghast (can't block) and a summoning sick DRS (treatening to win the game next turn). With a Vial on 2, I swing with the 2 Silvergils. He realizes that if I topdecked a lord and he doesn't block, then I win. He thinks a lot, picks up my grave, counts 3 Lords. 'No blocks' :(. At least I made him sweat by activating Vial before scooping.
SB: -4 Chalice, -3 Force, +4 Tidebinder, +3 Needle
G2: I get rolled, basically. I mull to 6, he plays Thoughtseize into DRS and I choose to name Liliana of the Veil with my Needle because (a) I have 2 other Needles and 4 Tidebinders in the deck to deal with DRS (b) DRS is not too scary right now while Liliana next turn ends the game on the spot. I still think this is correct but my opponent thinks I should have named DRS.
M3: Food Chain, loose roll (1-2)
G1: He makes a T1 DRS and cantrips twice before my T2 Chalice resolves. He then Manipulate Fate and I Clique his draw step hoping to snag a Food Chain. Instead I see Manipulate Fate, Griffin, DRS, land, land. I let him keep it. On his next turn, I Force a Sylvan Library (I think pitching TNN) because having islandwalk is going to be key in wining this game and I don't want him to start drawing Decays and stuff. He ended up drawing Force, Force, Force and countering every one of my lords while making a 3/3 flyer every turn.
SB: -1 Jitte, -4 Chalice, +1 Echoing Truth, +1 Swan Song, +3 Tidebinder. IDK if this is correct. I think Chalice > Tidebinder here.
G2: I have a very fast hand where I get him to 6 on T4 with a board of CC + 2x Lord + 2x Muta so even his Deluge can't save him.
G3: I keep a hand of Cavern, Vial, Vial, E Truth, Clique, TNN, CC. He fires a T2 Hymn which nabs E Truth + Clique. T3 he has EE to clean up my Vials (and I even think it a good idea to Vial in my CC in response to EE activation! ?!?) I miss a couple land drops and Griffins end up burrying me.
M4: UB Reanimator, loose roll (2-1)
G1: He exhumes Griselbrand. I make a copy of it with Cavern of Illusion. We each draw 14 and trade Griselbrands. I draw garbage and he reanimates Tidespout Tyrant to bounce my board.
SB: +4 Cage, +1 E Truth, +1 Swan Song, +1 Karakas, -4 TNN, -1 Jitte, -2 Clique
G2: I mull to 6 and make a T1 Vial into T2 Chalice on 1 and Force his Exhume but he has the Force backup and Griselbrand enters the battlefield with me hellbent. I topdeck Image(!), vial it in mid combat and he draws 14 trying to target it but fails. He scoops because I win on the swingback.
G3: I keep a hand of Swan Song, CC, Force, Vial, Karakas, Cavern, Island. He has a weak T1 of Careful Study with no creatures to discard. We play draw-go a lot because I want to have Swan Song + Force up and mana to plough trough Daze. He eventually goes for Entomb on Tyrant + Exhume and I Swan Song it. With 6 lands and a pair of Vials in play, I make Chalice on 2 (stops Exhume and lets me play Cage if I draw it). I eventually find Cage and mount an offensive of CC, Silvergil, Lord vs Swan. At 5, he is forced to Decay the Lord to not die. I proceed to draw 5 lands in a row but his situation is bad enough that I still end up on top (he has to deal with Chalice AND Cage if he wants to Exhume/Animate something-- Reanimate doesn't play anymore because of his low life total.)
This 2-2 was good enough for 40 points at the prize wall and I opted for Thoughtknot Seer over a Mirrodin Besieged booster.
The TO was Game Keeper, which is a store I actively try to avoid. I did enjoy the high level of competition at the event though, so I'm glad I went.
I still like the idea of the 75, but I definitely need more practice with the deck, and especially against more archetypes to make any kind of informed conclusion.
It's gonna take time since I don't play a lot (I have 2 young kids) but I'll report back eventually. I did explode another BR Reanimator last night on XMage though
This is my current list, that I was running at a small weekly last night. I realized how dumb I was, and forgot a 15th card for the sideboard. I believe I was going to run Vclique. In hindsight, they probably would never have come in. (EDIT 1/2 way through post: I just remembered why I only had 14. a friend was going to let me borrow 1x flusterstorm and it never happened. That would have seen some play) I am Dazeless (took them out of my normal list) and Chaliceless (don't own them, debating on whether to pull the trigger and buy). This iteration leans heavily towards disrupting the opponents mana as a resource
Creatures (27):
4x Cursecatcher
4x Silvergil Adept
4x Master of the Pearl Trident
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x True-Name Nemesis
2x Smuggler's Copter
2x Tidal Warrior
3x Phantasmal Image
Artifacts (5):
4x Aether Vial
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Spells(8):
2x Stifle
2x Spell Pierce
4x Force of Will
Lands(20):
2x Cavern of Souls
3x Mutavault
4x Wasteland
11x Island
Sideboard:
2x Graffdigger's cage
2x Submerge
2x Dismember
2x Harbinger of Tides
1x Spell Pierce
2x Pithing Needle
2x Echoing Truth
1x Null Rod
The weekly was a little over a dozen players. I was expecting a heavy storm/delver meta.
M1: [Win] Vs. Grixis Delver (2-1)
G1 (on the play)
Kept what I thought was a good opener, mix of lands and creatures. His was apparently better, as he jokingly showed it to the next guy over and asked if this was good. I T1 cursecatcher, he T1 Delvers. when I offered up the trade, he took it, then forced my silvergil. His T2 was delver Delver. They flipped next turn, I played nothing relevant.
G2 (on the play)
Good interactive game. Took him off tempo stifling first fetch. Couple of counter wars. Eventually TNN comes down off of Cavern, and it was the key to victory.
G3 (on the draw)
He had to mull to 5, so I spent T1 and 2 doing nothing with a stifle up. He assumed I had a slow draw and on T3 popped 2 fetches with 1 basic in. I stifled the first, he force pitched force. Now he had plenty of resources, but no real gas in hand. A couple lords, a wasteland and TNN sewed that game up.
M2: [WIN] Vs. Jund (2-0)
G1 (on the play?)
Forcing an early Liliana eventually lead to a win. it became a goyf v. truename battle. a 3rd phantasmal image copying another true name got me there.
G2 (on the draw)
The first appearance of Roflcopter, and it did work! Enabled me to smooth my draw, got in 6 points of damage. I always seemed to have the right cards for this match, and I feel a large part of it was because of this. I copied one goyf, then got TNN online.
M3: [LOSS] Vs. Jeskai Stoneblade (2-1)
G1 (on the draw)
Got mauled by batterskull and SoFaI. Nothing to really see there. Stifle made a brief appearance for a fetch early, but got dazed. Since I have removed them from my deck, it appears I forgot that the card exists. Also, played Roflcopter, but he kept swordsing it's crew.
G2 (on the play)
Stifle got him T1. He started playing around it, but it was too little too late. The only threat he eventually landed was a JTMS, which got echoing truthed on my turn, and then wasted him off of his tundra (4th mana source).
G3 (on the draw)
This was my major punt for the day. Midgame, I had a Lord of Atlantis on board, he had a TNN. He started racing me, TNN against my Mutavault. And I FORGOT MY LORD. As the game would have concluded, he got me while on 1. If I had remembered the Lord just one time out of the 3 turn cycles he could have attacked, I would've had that game.
M4 [WIN] vs. Red Gomblin Stompy(?)
(Pre match notes: The guy told me it was mostly a brew)
G1 (on the draw)
Hand I kept: 2x Wasteland 2x Island, Silvergil adept, spell pierce, TNN
He goes T2, Badlands, exile Simian spirit, exile Simian spirit, Goblin Rabblemaster, enter combat, make a goblin, swing for 1. I went T1, waste your badlands. (New lesson to learn: Don't try to tempo an aggro deck!) He goes mountain, swing for 6.
I went in the tank, thought about it and realized I had about 0 outs. Go to game 2 with only showing him a single waste.
G2 (on the play)
All I really remember from this game was him trying for Jaya Balard (forced) and then slamming a Boldwyr Heavyweights. For those of you who have never seen this card (like me) it is an 8/8 Trample for 4. but it has an ETB trigger that allows their opponent to go find a creature card and put it on the battlefield. So I went and found a True-Name to pair with my other true name, and then imaged a true name. And thus won the damage race.
G3 (on the draw)
Roflcopter made a second appearance, and once again, did great work. Didn't even use the looting ability that much, just was nice to have another form of evasion against a nonblue deck, while granting all my creatures pseudo haste. Another Boldwyr gave me a 2nd Truename, but it was honestly a "win-more" moment at that point.
Overall, it was a great night. I had a blast, got to try some new things, learned some valuable lessons, and above all, I got to play Legacy. I know that a single result at a small weekly is absolutely nothing to base any sort of conclusion off of, but I really did enjoy the inclusion of the Smuggler's copter. I have a third copy, and am debating on adding it, but going to stick with this current list for a few more times. I didn't see tidal warrior often, so can't speak much to his inclusion. Stifle was RARELY a dead card, and the psychological effect of playing it was more than noticeable.
Curious as to thoughts and reactions. Also, if I can get more chances to play, will happily put up more reports if it is requested. If they are too wordy, or just plain not helpful, let me know, I won't take offense! Cheers!
I would be ecstatic if they reprint that in Modern, though.
With four counters in the main that demands an Island, and few more cards in the sideboard (another Pierce, Submerges and Truths), -2 Waste, +1 Muta and Island or +2 Island should make your plan possible.
I still think Chalices are mandatory (and maybe even better than ever, other than Treasure Cruise times), but Chaliceless versions had success before so that might be personal preference.
Just like my love for Relic of Progenitus, that card is always in 75, if legal.
In the absence of Chalice, the mana denial plan with Stifle is interresting. I am off of Wasteland entirely at the moment but I remember when I was playing 2 (as an out to Glacial Chasm and what not), I always regretted the times when I used Wasteland as a mean to mana screw my opponent because it usually ended up screwing me more than my opponent.
For instance: make land drop #4, waste their dual or whatever, then they waste my Cavern/Mutavault and I all of a sudden I can't cast this topdecked TNN/Clique.
Between this kind of scenario and the fact that we sometimes want to hardcast Force and Silvergils, I found Wasteland very underwhelming in our deck.
But that being said, I always wondered if a more dedicated mana denial build could work. So yea, I'm definitely interested in reading more reports from you DickWatson.
Also, have you considered playing some Warping Wails in your 75? They are great at killing Deathrite Shamans among other things.
I played stifle as a fun-of in my pre-chalice days and it did many good things for me. I don't like it with chalice, which of course doesn't apply if uh, you don't have chalices.
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