Tuxdev, I apologize if I got you and nikachu crossed.
There was 1 more issue I kept having with tidal however. I'm almost in the camp of us needing all 4 caverns to run him effectively, I had a number of occasions in recent games where I land chalice t2 just to draw a sea of tidal, Cursecatcher and vials. (1 stuck in hand is acceptable, 2 or more makes me weary)
See, with the enchantments I've had the exact opposite effect. I've yet to get basics resolved and mattered enough due to mana cost and or an opposing decay upon resolution. My opponents would rarely tap out in fear of it.
When it comes to seas however, I've been able to shut off many cards from lands more effectively. Never having to worry about tabernacle or wasting time getting maze tapped down, etc. I've been prefering to shut down some of those lands permantly rather than have them play around warrior...And as usual, drawing a card is a big draw to the card.
I.. don't think you've gotten me and Nikachu crossed? Not sure if you're pro-negate or pro-fluster, I'm pro-fluster and only advocate negate as a budget option.
I'm almost in the camp of us needing all 4 caverns to run him effectively
All 4 caverns is pretty much where you should be anyway, more for TNN than for forcing down a cursecatcher or tidal through a chalice1.
My opponents would rarely tap out in fear of it.
If that's the case, then BtB is already doing its job even if it's not in your hand! I've had games where an early probe showed the BtB, but I jammed a T3 TNN instead, stranding their decay that turn and wasting 2 of their mana. That's almost a timewalk. With a TNN on board, they were forced into getting proactive, which played right into the BtB. If decay is annoying you especially much, jam a Misdirection or two in the sideboard. They're really good with the big surge in BUG lately.
Lands is hosed way harder by BtB than Seas can ever manage. I'm rarely all that concerned about Tabernacle. It's annoying, but doesn't really change the basic game plan for that matchup, which is to get a TNN down and ride it to victory while trying to not die to Marit Lage. In paper a good shortcut is to place a tapped land under each of your dudes so that you're automatically paying the tax and don't need to explicitly remember every single time. Maze of Ith gets hosed either way, they only get to stop 1 dude and then it's locked down. Same for Grove, they only get to use it once. Overall, the matchup is pretty even, maybe slightly favored for us. It's still a hard matchup and when you lose it feels like you couldn't do anything about it (which is often not wrong), which leads to the perception that it's a bad matchup. However, the more typical game has them durdling too much while not being able to handle a TNN (or 3).
12post is also hosed way harder by BtB. They *really* can't play magic after one hits the table, especially as post decks tend to like tapping out a lot. If you've got Reejerey, it's even more brutal. The scary card out of them nowadays is Walking Ballista which in turn makes Trinket Mage scary.
Seas is kind of a 2-for-1. BtB, like chalice, is an X-for-1. Just this morning on MTGO I jammed a T3 BtB into 3 tapped nonbasics, which locked not just those lands, but also almost their entire hand. It was basically a 7-for-1 by the time the game actually ended. If I had Seas in that situation, I would have quickly been run over by at least 2 goyfs, an active deathrite, and who knows what else that got stuck.
Impressive! I'll likely give it another go the next time I get a chance to in person. I also liked seas for dnt and eldrazi but that's another story as I've yet to be able to play against an eldrazi deck ever. Modern or legacy. Lol
I'm pro either spell honestly. I liked the theory on negate enough to try it, but I do have fluster waiting at the ready, just in case.
And yeah, Ballista is pretty sick. Faced that on a tron legacy attempt....whew. thankfully the player didn't realize you can respond to tidal warrior and use the mana....I gave him the heads up after.
So Fanattic's copter build at the top of the page shows the "classic" manabase. With 4 Caverns, are you dropping Wastelands entirely and running more Islands? Or do you accept more colorless lands, and use Tidal Warrior on your own lands as necessary to make more blue sources? In short, what do your 4-Cavern manabases look like?
Rule 1: Don't play less than 11 basic islands, unless you're willing to actually care about opposing Wasteland and Blood Moon, and also lose access to Back to Basics. I'm not.
Rule 2: Don't play any less than 2 copies of a nonbasic, or else you won't see it consistently enough to matter. Special exception: Mishra's Factory, it's just Mutavault #5.
Beyond that you can do pretty much whatever you want. The generally most reasonable 4 cavern manabases are 12 island 4 muta or 11 island 3 muta 2 waste.
Tidal Warrior on our own lands is a backup plan, not something we actively want to rely on as a part of deck construction. There's a ton of matchups where you want to side out Tidal, but if you make your mana too fragile without Tidal you're in for a bad time.
With all this Flusterstorm vs. Negate talk, what about Swan Song? I certainly prefer it over Negate, but am not sure about it over Flusterstorm (although it is $80 cheaper). We don't care about the 2/2 flyer, so it's really playing 1 mana less for the tradeoff of not hitting PWs and artifacts. I think most of the time, you want to counter an instant or sorcery, so to me it's the better choice.
Sure, but even if you don't consider budget options, Swan Song is a better card than Flusterstorm in some situations, as it's a hard counter. I brought the card up because people are debating between Flusterstorm and Negate, and I consider Swan Song to be a better card than Negate in this deck.
Swan Song is great if you're not running Chalice. Pretty bad with chalice. Unlike other 1-drops like vial, relic, or cage, Swan Song gets cast late and doesn't sneak under our own chalice. There's enough situations where storm, reanimator, or whatever can piece together a win despite chalice that you need to have a counter that can be used in that situation.
I noticed Smuggler's Copter doing some work recently in some lists. Who is testing this? It seems very nice to filter away Vial #2, unneccesary Chalice/Daze/Cursecatcher or whatever is not needed in the matchup. It does seem slow and a little clunky but I bet it could do some work against all the BUG midrange, D&T, and Eldrazi.
That's a little bit hasty. I agree it's not great for us in the short-term, but we've got the tools to adapt. For as long as the best color in Legacy is blue, we've got a place there.
I haven't actually touched my SB in paper yet, but I'd be considering
1 Cursed Totem
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Dismember
2 Submerge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Misdirection
2 Back to Basics
Unless you were running Null Rod, we've got no real intel on how you need to change your sideboard.
Miracles left the scene, but few bad matchups also got hit: Painter and Nic-fit will feel the pain.
More decks like 12-post, Storm, and S&T are also affected.
It will be interesting to see if Legacy side events at GP Bologna are even going to be filled or will people come out of woodwork since Miracles is no more.
The news by itself has no meaning for me in deck choice, Merfolk is my thing.
From the very small sample size of this morning and last night at my LGS (i.e. take with a grain of salt), Null Rod seems still pretty good even though I initially thought it might have gone down in effectiveness. Particularly, stoneforge mystic and LED has gotten more relevant to fill the gap top left.
So, our best matchup left the metagame. It is a sad day, but at least in my opinion there is no reason to play my beloved Merfolk in Legacy anymore. I'm sure it will still remain to be a decent deck in some metagames, but in the overall big picture this deck has more misses than it has hits now. Sad, sad times.
Joe Lossett disagrees, and I'm inclined to agree with him. We had a good Miracles matchup, but I think that its absence will afford us more room in our 75s to prepare to face the decks that will benefit most from it. At the end of the day, we're a proactive tempo deck that can fend off most fast combo, and that's good enough to keep us around.
What are everyone's favorite SB options for grave hate? And reasonings?
Relic of Progenitus seems to be an auto-include as though it is slow against Reanimator and Dredge it is probably fine against Storm and very good against Loam, Punishing Fire, Deathrite, Angler, Goyf, etc.
Grafdigger's Cage seems the most powerful as it cuts Reanimator and Dredge off at the knees while also being fantastic against Elves and Storm.
Surgical Extraction also intrigues me as a 0-cost answer to Reanimator shenanigans and a surprise against Loam decks while also being useful against Snapcaster and Dredge decks.
Tormod's Crypt could also be used as a 0-cost way to nuke Reanimator and Dredge, Loam, Storm, etc. The surprise factor is lost here but the card is powerful.
3-1 Relic/Cage split. Draw a card and nuking both graveyards are extremely important to me.
Relic also instills that sinking feeling where the opponent sees how his options are going away. Slowly.
I never consider Crypt as viable, Surgical or Faerie Macabre would be third options.
Crypt is either sorcery speed "answer" or stays in play telling the opponent to play around it.
Anyone see that crazy mtgto list that 5-0? I will post it here.
Creature (27)
3 Cursecatcher
2 Harbinger of the Tides
2 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Silvergill Adept
4 True-Name Nemesis
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Instant (5)
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
Artifact (5)
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Land (20)
3 Cavern of Souls
13 Island
1 Karakas
3 Mutavault
Other (3)
3 Aether Vial
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
1 Echoing Truth 3 Back to Basics 2 Cursed Totem 2 Dismember 2 Flusterstorm 2 Grafdigger's Cage 1 Manriki-Gusari 2 Misdirection
I am not even sure what to make of it. Clique is great against Show and Tell and D & T but seems bad against Delver and BUG decks and too slow for reanimator and storm. Only 2 Lords and only 6 1-drops... Any thoughts?
There was 1 more issue I kept having with tidal however. I'm almost in the camp of us needing all 4 caverns to run him effectively, I had a number of occasions in recent games where I land chalice t2 just to draw a sea of tidal, Cursecatcher and vials. (1 stuck in hand is acceptable, 2 or more makes me weary)
See, with the enchantments I've had the exact opposite effect. I've yet to get basics resolved and mattered enough due to mana cost and or an opposing decay upon resolution. My opponents would rarely tap out in fear of it.
When it comes to seas however, I've been able to shut off many cards from lands more effectively. Never having to worry about tabernacle or wasting time getting maze tapped down, etc. I've been prefering to shut down some of those lands permantly rather than have them play around warrior...And as usual, drawing a card is a big draw to the card.
All 4 caverns is pretty much where you should be anyway, more for TNN than for forcing down a cursecatcher or tidal through a chalice1.
If that's the case, then BtB is already doing its job even if it's not in your hand! I've had games where an early probe showed the BtB, but I jammed a T3 TNN instead, stranding their decay that turn and wasting 2 of their mana. That's almost a timewalk. With a TNN on board, they were forced into getting proactive, which played right into the BtB. If decay is annoying you especially much, jam a Misdirection or two in the sideboard. They're really good with the big surge in BUG lately.
Lands is hosed way harder by BtB than Seas can ever manage. I'm rarely all that concerned about Tabernacle. It's annoying, but doesn't really change the basic game plan for that matchup, which is to get a TNN down and ride it to victory while trying to not die to Marit Lage. In paper a good shortcut is to place a tapped land under each of your dudes so that you're automatically paying the tax and don't need to explicitly remember every single time. Maze of Ith gets hosed either way, they only get to stop 1 dude and then it's locked down. Same for Grove, they only get to use it once. Overall, the matchup is pretty even, maybe slightly favored for us. It's still a hard matchup and when you lose it feels like you couldn't do anything about it (which is often not wrong), which leads to the perception that it's a bad matchup. However, the more typical game has them durdling too much while not being able to handle a TNN (or 3).
12post is also hosed way harder by BtB. They *really* can't play magic after one hits the table, especially as post decks tend to like tapping out a lot. If you've got Reejerey, it's even more brutal. The scary card out of them nowadays is Walking Ballista which in turn makes Trinket Mage scary.
Seas is kind of a 2-for-1. BtB, like chalice, is an X-for-1. Just this morning on MTGO I jammed a T3 BtB into 3 tapped nonbasics, which locked not just those lands, but also almost their entire hand. It was basically a 7-for-1 by the time the game actually ended. If I had Seas in that situation, I would have quickly been run over by at least 2 goyfs, an active deathrite, and who knows what else that got stuck.
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I'm pro either spell honestly. I liked the theory on negate enough to try it, but I do have fluster waiting at the ready, just in case.
And yeah, Ballista is pretty sick. Faced that on a tron legacy attempt....whew. thankfully the player didn't realize you can respond to tidal warrior and use the mana....I gave him the heads up after.
2) Use the right number of each card.
3) Know your probabilities.
4) Print your deck lists; make yourself and your judges happier.
Rule 2: Don't play any less than 2 copies of a nonbasic, or else you won't see it consistently enough to matter. Special exception: Mishra's Factory, it's just Mutavault #5.
Beyond that you can do pretty much whatever you want. The generally most reasonable 4 cavern manabases are 12 island 4 muta or 11 island 3 muta 2 waste.
Tidal Warrior on our own lands is a backup plan, not something we actively want to rely on as a part of deck construction. There's a ton of matchups where you want to side out Tidal, but if you make your mana too fragile without Tidal you're in for a bad time.
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Fluster is the best for my needs.
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Tidal warriors may become more of a threat now with people rushing to non-blue combo decks in response to the ban
EDIT - that being said tonights Legacy tournament has wrecked my sideboard, Taiga as first prize and now I'm up in the air as to what to put in it ><
1 Cursed Totem
1 Manriki-Gusari
2 Dismember
2 Submerge
2 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Relic of Progenitus
1 Misdirection
2 Back to Basics
Unless you were running Null Rod, we've got no real intel on how you need to change your sideboard.
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More decks like 12-post, Storm, and S&T are also affected.
It will be interesting to see if Legacy side events at GP Bologna are even going to be filled or will people come out of woodwork since Miracles is no more.
The news by itself has no meaning for me in deck choice, Merfolk is my thing.
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Joe Lossett disagrees, and I'm inclined to agree with him. We had a good Miracles matchup, but I think that its absence will afford us more room in our 75s to prepare to face the decks that will benefit most from it. At the end of the day, we're a proactive tempo deck that can fend off most fast combo, and that's good enough to keep us around.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Deck costs about 1600$ and isn't easy to play.
Relic of Progenitus seems to be an auto-include as though it is slow against Reanimator and Dredge it is probably fine against Storm and very good against Loam, Punishing Fire, Deathrite, Angler, Goyf, etc.
Grafdigger's Cage seems the most powerful as it cuts Reanimator and Dredge off at the knees while also being fantastic against Elves and Storm.
Surgical Extraction also intrigues me as a 0-cost answer to Reanimator shenanigans and a surprise against Loam decks while also being useful against Snapcaster and Dredge decks.
Tormod's Crypt could also be used as a 0-cost way to nuke Reanimator and Dredge, Loam, Storm, etc. The surprise factor is lost here but the card is powerful.
What are your current configs?
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Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Relic also instills that sinking feeling where the opponent sees how his options are going away. Slowly.
I never consider Crypt as viable, Surgical or Faerie Macabre would be third options.
Crypt is either sorcery speed "answer" or stays in play telling the opponent to play around it.
Relic of Progenitus mostly for cards that are annoying to deal with like Deathrite Shaman, Tarmogoyf. Knight of the Reliquary...
And of course to deal with problematic graveyard mumbo jumbo.
Grafdigger's Cage specifically because it also comes in against elves, and of course it's amazing against reanimator.
.
On a side not I would love more people to transition to decks that focus on using green creatures ever since Miracles took the gas...
It only makes Submerge that more fun to play
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Creature (27)
3 Cursecatcher
2 Harbinger of the Tides
2 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Silvergill Adept
4 True-Name Nemesis
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Instant (5)
1 Echoing Truth
4 Force of Will
Artifact (5)
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Land (20)
3 Cavern of Souls
13 Island
1 Karakas
3 Mutavault
Other (3)
3 Aether Vial
60 Cards
Sideboard (15)
1 Echoing Truth 3 Back to Basics 2 Cursed Totem 2 Dismember 2 Flusterstorm 2 Grafdigger's Cage 1 Manriki-Gusari 2 Misdirection
I am not even sure what to make of it. Clique is great against Show and Tell and D & T but seems bad against Delver and BUG decks and too slow for reanimator and storm. Only 2 Lords and only 6 1-drops... Any thoughts?