this deck list was last updated 9-29-2020
a lot of the things ive written here are way out of date, but im leaving them on this post.
i look forward to any advice you might have.
Hello all. As my kids get into playing Magic, I've been dusting off my old decks and updating some of them with new cards to play against my kids and their friends. I'd like the decks to be good enough to win almost all the time, but have the cards be relatively simple and not too expensive.
Here's the deck as it stands now:
White Weenie
The deck does well in the early game, and I use the Armageddons to try and kind of keep the game in the early stages by limiting everyone's mana. With the Flagstones of Trokair and a little planning, it's easy to play an Armageddon and then have 1 or 2 plains back on the board very quickly.
Id like to hear thoughts and suggestions for new cards, but first a little about why I chose some of these cards: Isamaru, Hound of Konda: 2/2 for W is very efficient in my opinion. His legendary status has been inconvenient occasionally, but usually he's on the board pretty quickly, and he's one of my bigger creatures, so he's usually targeted pretty early on and I can play a second one without too much trouble, most of the time.
Tundra Wolves: First strike is so important to me in little creatures. Tundra Wolves can do battle with most other 1/1 creatures and survive, unlike Savannah Lions and similar cards that would die to 1/1 creatures.
Judge's Familiar: a 1/1 flier for W is pretty good I think. I used to play Suntail Hawks. A white counter is very unusual and exciting to me, even if it is a soft counter.
Order of the White Shield: I've always liked these cards, as Ive said before, I like first strike, and if something happens to my Armageddon play, these cards give me something to do with all the land I was expecting to destroy. I used to play with 7 pump knights but took three of them out already for the Serra Avengers, and I'm considering taking the other 4 out for something else, I'm not sure what. Maybe Knight of Meadowgrain. It's always got the first strike, and Lifelink never hurt anyone. The only thing I'd be giving up by making this swap would be the pump ability and my mana sink.
Serra Avenger: Another card that I would theoretically always be playing after the Armageddon. By that point in the game, the Avenger's restriction is a moot point and having such a low casting cost is huge for me. Again, with my 8 pump up enchantments, the Avenger almost always hits the table at 4/4 or bigger.
Swords to Plowshares: I've considered Path to Exile as a replacement, but my main defense is blowing up all my opponents land. It seems counter-productive to give them 1 back for free.
The first major thing that stands out--waaay too many lands (27), and not enough creatures (21). This deck could safely cut 4 to 6 lands and be much more effective by filling those slots with aggressive creatures. I'd personally cut 0-1 Flagstones of Trokair and 4-5 Plains.
I personally don't even run Armageddon or similar effects in my list--I'd probably use Cataclysm instead if I did--but my experience is that such effects are best used to salt a game away when you've already got the advantage on the board, instead of as a reactive reset. For this reason, I would ditch the Tethered Griffin plan--what you play BEFORE the 'Geddon is far more important than what you play after. Furthermore, the earliest you're going to be able to play the Griffin is turn 3--since you have to play an enchantment first--and by turn 3 you have far better things you could be doing than playing a generic 2/3 flyer. I'd also cut at least one 'Geddon or even remove them from the main deck entirely; they're not all that good in every matchup--especially against other aggressive decks--and you almost never want/need more than one--if you even want one at all.
I'd also go ahead and cut a couple Isamarus because of the legendary clause--you NEVER want to draw more than 1, as you can only have one on the board at a time--and as a generic 2-power creature it really is essentially a dead draw after the first couple of turns. The Tundra Wolves should go because they're simply underpowered by the standard of today's creatures. Get your hands on some Mother of Runes and Student of Warfares to put in the 1-drop slots instead. They're relatively cheap and super powerful. Soldier of the Pantheon isn't bad; Kytheon, Hero of Akros remains an option if you want to splurge a bit. I'm personally not a fan of Judge's Familiar in aggressive weenie decks, but it's hardly an indefensible inclusion; a lot of people are actually quite fond of it.
Your intuition about the "pump knights" is correct; they're just not very good anymore. Maybe take a look at Mirran Crusader instead--a total beating especially with your pump enchantments; each Crusade or Honor of the Pure on the table effectively gives it +2/+1--and they're only like $1.50 a piece. Silverblade Paladin is another possibility that fills a similar role. While we're on the subject of Crusade effects, eight seems a but excessive. I personally run six such effects; a lot of people run four or less. At the very least, perhaps consider something like Soltari Champion that can boost your squad but also attack by itself.
Finally, you need some more 2-drops with "first strike" and/or "protection from x" and/or another combat-relevant ability, which are a staple of aggressive white decks. Knight of Meadowgrain is a good one for sure. Kazandu Blademaster isn't bad, especially if you draw multiples. Soltari Priest is a personal favorite of mine, because against 99% of decks it's completely unlockable; I prefer it to its cousin, Soltari Monk, because the protection color is a bit more relevant. White Knight and Silver Knight are classics, albeit somewhat outclassed these days. If you're willing to splurge a bit, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is about the best white 2-drop you can have--it's essentially a Time Walk against any deck trying to cast a board wipe to blow up all of your creaturea, and first strike makes it surprisingly effective in combat for a 2/1. Regrettably, they're also about $8.00 a piece now.
If you're looking for more ideas, check out my list:
Thank you so much for your input.
It will take me some time to digest it all, here are my first impressions:
I made a mistake when i first posted the deck list, there are 23 total lands, including the 4 Flagstones of Trokair.
The Armageddons are staying, at least for now. I find that people aren't really prepared for them. With the Flagstones of Trokair, the knowledge of when the Armageddon is coming and the very low mana curve of this deck, a successfully cast Armageddon almost always winds up in my favor. I'm more then happy to play multiple Armageddons in a game.
I'm on the fence about the Tethered Griffin. I do see what you're saying about these cards, but I have found him useful. The only enchantments I have are +1/+1 boosts, so anytime the Tethered Griffin hits the table, it's at least a 3/4 flier for W. I'm not totally against switching these out for something else, Ill be looking into some of the cards you mentioned.
I have been considering going down to 3 Isamaru, Hound of Kondas for the reason you pointed out. I haven't done it yet because I really want to have it in my hand early on, and his legendary status hasn't bitten me very often.
I also see what you're saying about the Tundra Wolves. Sometimes in the past I've taken them out for other 1 drop creatures. I always wind up putting them back in. In the paragraph where you talk about the Tundra Wolves, you mention 5 other one drop creatures. Tundra Wolves kills all 5 of them, and lives to fight another day against 3 of them. I know that's not everything, but it's something. The one drop first striker seems big to me.
I am interested in some of the creatures youve suggested as replacements for the Order of the White Shield. I'll have to look into them more. Right now Knight of Meadowgrain is in the lead, with some of the Soltari cards a close second. I've always been wary of shadow, because even though it makes the creature almost unblockable, it also makes the creature almost useless as a blocker.
The Soltari Champion would probably be my pick of the shadow creatures, but i'm trying to keep the mana curve as low as possible. Right now the only card that costs me more then WW is Armageddon. I'm not sure if I want to start putting 3 drop creatures in.
Just a few follow up thoughts; I don't know how competitive your scene is or what sorts of decks you run up against, so I'll speak in mostly general terms:
White Weenie is--except when it's playing against a deck even faster than itself--the aggressor. The end goal is to get the opponent from 20 to 0 as quickly as possible, preferably not much after turn 5 or 6. White Weenie is a "fair" deck with no real back-breaking plays; the longer the game goes on, the more likely White Weenie is to lose to their opponent's card advantage, superior late game plays, or both. Things like Armageddon can mitigate this dynamic to an extent, but only inasmuch as you already have the advantage on the board. (The first Armageddon should be enough on its own to put the game away, otherwise something is wrong.)
Two (interrelated) things to consider as you try and maximize your damage: mana curve and power level.
Strategically, White Weenie wants to be using as much of its available mana as possible each and every turn--i.e. you want to "curve out" as efficiently as possible. That means a 1-drop on turn 1, a 2-drop or two 1-drops on turn 2, a 3-drop or a 1-drop and a 2-drop on turn 3, etc. Turns 4-5 and beyond, White Weenie wants to drop something that's going to put the game away--things like your Crusade effects, high-powered equipment like Umezawa's Jitte, Batterskull, Sword of Fire and Ice, Sword of War and Peace, etc., or mass land destruction like Armageddon, if you're into that. Essentially, White Weenie wants to have enough things to do of the appropriate power level on each and every turn.
This would be my overarching critique of your deck as it's currently constructed: it doesn't appear that you have enough good things to do on each turn, especially not after turns 1 or 2.
You need more and better creatures to win the damage race. I don't know when the last time was that you regularly played Magic, but there's been substantial power creep over the years, particularly with regards to creatures. Here are some of the kinds of things you can potentially find yourself up against within the first few turns of a game: Tarmogoyf, Delver of Secrets, Nimble Mongoose, Siege Rhino, Courser of Kruphix, Monastery Mentor, True-Name Nemesis, Thought-Knot Seer, Knight of the Reliquary, Watchwolf, Vexing Devil. I know back in the day that White pretty much had a monopoly on good, on-curve creatures with relevant abilities; that is no longer the case.
21 creatures--8 of which are 1-power 1-drops--is not really going to cut it, even with Crusade effects. I'd also state the obvious, which is that Crusade effects are better when you have more creatures on the table.
Here's a breakdown of your current "curve", based on the first turn that you can realistically play a creature (irrespective of actual mana cost):
Turn 1: 12
Turn 2: 4
Turn 3: 2
Turn 4: 3
You start off strong with Isamaru; I still disagree with the decision to run 4 because of the issues I outlined above, but it's not entirely indefensible to do so. I think your intuition that 3 is the correct number is spot on. Tundra Wolves is OK, but you'd be better served running more creatures with 2 power for W to maximize early turn damage; your 1/1 first-striker is going to be obsoleted by turn 2 or 3 no matter what--your opponent might even have superior 1-drops such as Kird Ape, Goblin Guide, Wild Nacatl, or Loam Lion--whereas a 2/1 for W could at least potentially trade with a bigger creature later on while getting more damage in in the early game. Perhaps you haven't played with Mother of Runes to appreciate just how powerful and versatile it is, but it should be an auto-include. It's actually good past turn 2 or 3, because it can (a) block and give itself protection from the attacking creature's color; (b) protect your other creatures from removal spells; (c) give your creatures evasion via protection.
The 2-drop slot is where your deck could really get a boost--your deck only has 4 real turn-2 plays: the 4 Order of the White Shields. Tethered Griffin can only be played as early as turn 3, and only if you have a Crusade; Serra Avenger isn't playable until turn 4. I'd recommend increasing the number of 2/x creatures for WW; most decks I've seen run 12-14 such creatures. This ensures you always have a reasonable turn 2 play, and you can combine a second 2-drop with a 1-drop for a potent turn-3 play.
On that note, I absolutely think you should run a handful of 3-mana creatures. You have 23 lands in the deck; you will almost invariably have 3 lands on turn 3; this is elementary, but the most powerful things you can be doing on turn-3 will cost the full 3 mana, whether it's playing a 3-mana creature or playing 2 creatures that collectively cost 3 mana. Another great card that I forgot to mention before is Spectral Procession; it creates three 1/1 flying spirit tokens for 3 mana, which is potent with 1 Crusade effect and absolutely bonkers with 2. I will reiterate that Mirran Crusader is an absolute beating; it's effectively a 4/2 for 1WW that deals half of its damage as first strike damage and has protection from 2 of the 3 colors you would most want your creatures to have protection from (the third color is red.) It is far and away more powerful than anything your deck is currently doing on turn 3, and it's squarely on curve for your deck.
Im also considering taking out 1 more crusade and adding 1 soltari priest to add to my shadow creature contingant because the soltari champion kind of gives me a crusade effect. Even though its 1 more mana and only works for attacking. This change would bring me to 23 creatures, but make it slightly harder to pump them up. With 5 shadow creatures, maybe i should make a better mix of the 2 drop ones and the 3 drop ones. Instead of 4 of 1 and 1 of the other, maybe I should do a 3 / 2 split.
So lets say i keep my shadow creature count at 4. All of them soltari champion .
If i take out 1 more crusade and go down to 22 lands that leaves 2 open slots. If you count the 4 slots im planning on making knight of the meadowgrain that makes six 2 drop slots.
How should i fill them? Thalia, Guardian of Thraben seems like a 2 drop that i dont want to play on turn 2. It messes with a lot of my cards, i feel like id have to make massive changes to the deck to make it work.
The cards im interested in for the six slots are: knight of the meadowgrain knight of the holy nimbus accorder paladin grand abolisher
knight of the meadowgrain seems like the best of the bunch to me, that leaves 2 slots up in the air. How do you think i should fill the 6 slots?
Thanks
I agree, that Tundra Wolves is an underpowered 1-drop nowadays, but if you're still intent on running such a creature, there is a strict upgrade available in Mosquito Guard.
Regarding 2-drops, Spectral Rider, Selfless Spirit, or Kor Aeronaut could be useful evasion. Porcelain Legionnaire is one of the highest powered 2-drops with first strike you can find. Sigiled Paladin could empower your 1-drop the turn it enters the battlefield and can attack as a lone 3 power first strike itself. Consul's Lieutenant can quite easily grow into a 3/2 first striker and boost your entire attacking team on subsequent attacks. Precinct Captain gives you more tokens every time it hits a player.
I also agree, that you could use a handful of good 3-drops. Mirran Crusader and Silverblade Paladin were mentioned before, and EMN brought Thalia, Heretic Cathar which can hamper an opponent's defense nicely while also being a 3-powered first sriker.
As far as removal spells go, a nice 1-mana option even for monowhite is Dismember. If you're the aggressor, those 4 life points don't really matter, especially if you have ways to regain life, like that Knight of Meadowgrain.
There is no one definitive answer to your question as to which 2-drops are the best. There are so many different weenies that do so many different things that it's really going to be a function of what your opponents are playing more than anything. While some weenies are inherently more powerful than others, there are many that become relatively more or less strong depending on what your opponent's strategy is. Kor Firewalker, for instance, is an absolute nightmare for an opponent playing a burn, but it's just a Grizzly Bears against a blue-black control deck.
Granted, again, some weenies are just heads and shoulders above the others. I'd almost universally recommend Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, although in the case of your deck the strategy is inextricably linked with landing a Crusdae effect and then casting Armegeddon that maybe you should give it a pass. Mother of Runes is another such creature, which is why I was adamant that you should include her.
As to some of the weenies you mentioned: Grand Abolisher is one of those situational weenies; it's only really good if you intend to see a bunch of control decks, but even then it seems like a bit of a singleton inclusion, or possibly better relegated to the sideboard. Accorder Paladin is decent, but if you're looking for a 3-power creature for 2 mana, the aforementioned Porcelain Legionnaire is superior; if you want the "battle cry" effect, I'd give Consul's Lieutenant a look instead. You also have a glut of such effects already; if you do include the Paladin or the Lieutenant, I'd cut the third Crusade and maybe a couple of the Champions.
For your consideration, a complete rebuild of your deck based on the principles and ideas I've discussed in this and my previous posts. It's a bar-napkin version, obviously; you'd need to tinker with it to make sure the curve works right and that it fits your needs and preferences, but it should serve as a decent jumping-off point:
A few things I've done that you may or may not agree with, with explanation:
(1) Cut a single copy of Armageddon--I don't think you ever want a second copy clogging your hand; the game should be over by that point. And, again, if you're up against another, more aggressive deck, it is likely to be a dead card.
(2) Cut a single copy of Flagstones of Trokair--the legendary clause is slightly problematic if you draw two; it's at its best with Armageddon
(3) Cut a single copy of Judge's Familiar--it's a little bit situational; I gave you more evasion elsewhere, and the deck needed an extra slot for 2-drops.
(4) Cut two copies of Soltari Champion--I shifted some of the shadow evasion into the cheaper Soltari Priest. I shifted your buff effect into the cheaper Consul's Leiutenant to smooth out your mana curve.
(5) Removed a copy of Serra Avenger, replaced with a singleton Mirran Crusader--the Avenger is a great card, but you're not running Aether Vial, which at the end of the day means it's a bit of a vanilla 3/3 flyer on turn 4--at the earliest. Don't get me wrong, it's still very powerful, though not as much so as if you had the Vial. You needed another 3-turn play since I cut a couple of Champions, and I thought you could stand to give the Crusader a try, so I added one copy.
Ive decided that my 2 drop spots will be a mix of Knight of Meadowgrain and Porcelain Legionnaire. Right now I'm going with 4 knights and 2 legionnaires, but I might change that.
I'm also considering what you've said about taking out 1 Armageddon. If I did that, I would probably add a third Porcelain Legionnaire.
Just so I'm clear about some of the cards I've added, I can cast the Porcelain Legionnaire with either 2 and 2 life or 2W, correct?
and the mother of runes can block a much larger creature, then tap to give herself protection from that creature's color, the creature remains blocked, and the mother takes no damage, correct?
thanks again
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My decks. Feel free to make suggestions. The Precious B___U___G___R___W
In a related question, im not understanding why the legendary clause would be an issue with flagstones of trokair.
Lets say i get 2 in my hand, turn 1 i play a flagstones of trokair then whatever 1 drop i have.
Turn 2 i tap the flagstones of trokair then play my second flagstones of trokair. I choose the tapped one to go to the graveyard, search my library for a plains put it into play tapped, then tap my remaining flagstones of trokair, and have enough mana for my 2 drop. I finish turn 2 with my 1 drop out, my 2 drop out, and 2 tapped lands.
Isnt it the same as if i played 2 plains, just with the added armageddon benefit?
Am i doing it wrong?
You understand the legend rule well enough. It has been a minor problem with the old legend rule (where you'd lose all your copies before you could activate the second one to get mana), but the newest version presents no such difficulties, with the exception of having to keep in mind the timing you mentioned.
Just so I'm clear about some of the cards I've added, I can cast the Porcelain Legionnaire with either 2 and 2 life or 2 W, correct?
Yes.
and the mother of runes can block a much larger creature, then tap to give herself protection from that creature's color, the creature remains blocked, and the mother takes no damage, correct?
correct. Though if the attacker has trample, it still only has to assign 1 damage to the Mother before being able to trample over.
Your problem with WW is that every deck in the combo section will, if left unimpeded in terms of mana or spells, win t1-3, whilst burn will win t4, and the midrange decks like Nic fit or Maverick would realistically expect to remove something from the table or hand t1, drop SFM t2, batterskull t3 and something else big and nasty t4 (eg siege rhino in the case of nic fit, or Goyf plus another SFM or hand hate), and that is without their acceleration hands. In short, unless you are running hate bears (see Death and Taxes) or other disrupting cards that hit something other than life, you can't beat most decks. Check out D n T in established and Soldier Stompy in Developing - a thread that contains aggro white dudes that might be up your street- very fast, very aggro white, but crucially running cards like the Thalias and Suppression Fields that slow the opponent down as well as its own acceleration.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Was not too sure, I suspected he was talking about casual Mtg, but I know a few families who play and not always casually. Just did not want the fellow to turn up at an event and 0-4 drop.
Soldier stompy was one of the weaker Chalice-Stompy or Cavern/tribal decks like Merfolk, AIR, Dragon Stompy, Goblins etc, but in the last two months it has gotten new Thalia and Recruiter of the guard, both of which can be cast t1. Thalia II has given it a huge boost. I have seen a couple of lists with new Thalia in that have done well in the past few weeks, I would not be surprised if it slow burnt its way up the meta like Infect did. Either way its more WW than Eldrazi, hence the suggestion. Its also in this forum and quite an active thread.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
honestly, i think your deck could use an equipment or 2. sword of fire and ice could be pretty good with your deck.
also, you might wanna think about adding in some wastelands and some fetch lands. fetches help to thin your deck (not so amazingly useful, but it can be), wastelands help colour-screw your opponents; keeping them off important colours like green/red against RUG and so on.
This has been an oft-discussed topic on these forums, but it's almost universally accepted that unless you're either in multiple colors or running Brainstorm-style effects you should not run fetchlands; the one life is DEFINITELY not worth the negligible thinning effect.
Schweineffet is arguably right about the Wastelands to the extent that you anticipate running into worthwhile targets. As your deck is currently configured, your mana costs don't really skew all that heavily towards double-white, so your deck could probably support three and maybe even four copies. Again, you really should only do this if you anticipate seeing multicolor decks with heavy color commitments or decks with powerful utility lands that screw with your game plan.
Finally, as to the equipment, Swords are nice but not necessarily essential; I personally like the Stoneforge Mystic with a couple of different equipments for added variety and utility, but that's just me. If you're on the global-buff plan--which you most definitely are--the Swords, while powerful, are mana intensive and don't really mesh with your deck's game plan. I do like equipment + Mystic more if you add the Wastelands, because of the colorless.
the biggest question i have lately is trying to add helpful lands. is 2 karakas 1 too many because of the legendary clause? did i miss any other lands i should put in, ive only really been considering lands that enter the battle field untapped and tap for W. the deck runs pretty well and i dont want to give up tempo.
also im considering trying to squeeze in 1 or 2 student of warfare. im not sure what to cut for it...
thanks for any advice you might have, just keep in mind that i want the deck to stay legacy legal, and ive kind of put a cap of $50 on any individual card in the deck
a lot of the things ive written here are way out of date, but im leaving them on this post.
i look forward to any advice you might have.
Hello all. As my kids get into playing Magic, I've been dusting off my old decks and updating some of them with new cards to play against my kids and their friends. I'd like the decks to be good enough to win almost all the time, but have the cards be relatively simple and not too expensive.
Here's the deck as it stands now:
White Weenie
4 Judge's Familiar
4 mother of runes
4 knight of meadowgrain
2 white shield crusader
3 porcelain legionnaire
2 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 soltari champion
2 serra avenger
4 honor of the pure
4 swords to plowshares
3 disenchant
1 flagstones of trokair
1 eiganjo castle
16 plains
The deck does well in the early game, and I use the Armageddons to try and kind of keep the game in the early stages by limiting everyone's mana. With the Flagstones of Trokair and a little planning, it's easy to play an Armageddon and then have 1 or 2 plains back on the board very quickly.
Id like to hear thoughts and suggestions for new cards, but first a little about why I chose some of these cards:
Isamaru, Hound of Konda: 2/2 for W is very efficient in my opinion. His legendary status has been inconvenient occasionally, but usually he's on the board pretty quickly, and he's one of my bigger creatures, so he's usually targeted pretty early on and I can play a second one without too much trouble, most of the time.
Tundra Wolves: First strike is so important to me in little creatures. Tundra Wolves can do battle with most other 1/1 creatures and survive, unlike Savannah Lions and similar cards that would die to 1/1 creatures.
Judge's Familiar: a 1/1 flier for W is pretty good I think. I used to play Suntail Hawks. A white counter is very unusual and exciting to me, even if it is a soft counter.
Order of the White Shield: I've always liked these cards, as Ive said before, I like first strike, and if something happens to my Armageddon play, these cards give me something to do with all the land I was expecting to destroy. I used to play with 7 pump knights but took three of them out already for the Serra Avengers, and I'm considering taking the other 4 out for something else, I'm not sure what. Maybe Knight of Meadowgrain. It's always got the first strike, and Lifelink never hurt anyone. The only thing I'd be giving up by making this swap would be the pump ability and my mana sink.
Tethered Griffin: In theory I would play these after I play an Armageddon. With 4 each Crusade and Honor of the Pure it's rare that I don't have an enchantment on the board by the fourth or fifth turn when I play the Armageddon.
Serra Avenger: Another card that I would theoretically always be playing after the Armageddon. By that point in the game, the Avenger's restriction is a moot point and having such a low casting cost is huge for me. Again, with my 8 pump up enchantments, the Avenger almost always hits the table at 4/4 or bigger.
Swords to Plowshares: I've considered Path to Exile as a replacement, but my main defense is blowing up all my opponents land. It seems counter-productive to give them 1 back for free.
I feel that the Armageddon, Crusade, Honor of the Pure and Flagstones of Trokair cards are integral to the deck and need very little in the way of explanation.
Thanks for taking the time to read this, I look forward to hearing your thoughts.
The Precious
B___U___G___R___W
I personally don't even run Armageddon or similar effects in my list--I'd probably use Cataclysm instead if I did--but my experience is that such effects are best used to salt a game away when you've already got the advantage on the board, instead of as a reactive reset. For this reason, I would ditch the Tethered Griffin plan--what you play BEFORE the 'Geddon is far more important than what you play after. Furthermore, the earliest you're going to be able to play the Griffin is turn 3--since you have to play an enchantment first--and by turn 3 you have far better things you could be doing than playing a generic 2/3 flyer. I'd also cut at least one 'Geddon or even remove them from the main deck entirely; they're not all that good in every matchup--especially against other aggressive decks--and you almost never want/need more than one--if you even want one at all.
I'd also go ahead and cut a couple Isamarus because of the legendary clause--you NEVER want to draw more than 1, as you can only have one on the board at a time--and as a generic 2-power creature it really is essentially a dead draw after the first couple of turns. The Tundra Wolves should go because they're simply underpowered by the standard of today's creatures. Get your hands on some Mother of Runes and Student of Warfares to put in the 1-drop slots instead. They're relatively cheap and super powerful. Soldier of the Pantheon isn't bad; Kytheon, Hero of Akros remains an option if you want to splurge a bit. I'm personally not a fan of Judge's Familiar in aggressive weenie decks, but it's hardly an indefensible inclusion; a lot of people are actually quite fond of it.
Your intuition about the "pump knights" is correct; they're just not very good anymore. Maybe take a look at Mirran Crusader instead--a total beating especially with your pump enchantments; each Crusade or Honor of the Pure on the table effectively gives it +2/+1--and they're only like $1.50 a piece. Silverblade Paladin is another possibility that fills a similar role. While we're on the subject of Crusade effects, eight seems a but excessive. I personally run six such effects; a lot of people run four or less. At the very least, perhaps consider something like Soltari Champion that can boost your squad but also attack by itself.
Finally, you need some more 2-drops with "first strike" and/or "protection from x" and/or another combat-relevant ability, which are a staple of aggressive white decks. Knight of Meadowgrain is a good one for sure. Kazandu Blademaster isn't bad, especially if you draw multiples. Soltari Priest is a personal favorite of mine, because against 99% of decks it's completely unlockable; I prefer it to its cousin, Soltari Monk, because the protection color is a bit more relevant. White Knight and Silver Knight are classics, albeit somewhat outclassed these days. If you're willing to splurge a bit, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben is about the best white 2-drop you can have--it's essentially a Time Walk against any deck trying to cast a board wipe to blow up all of your creaturea, and first strike makes it surprisingly effective in combat for a 2/1. Regrettably, they're also about $8.00 a piece now.
If you're looking for more ideas, check out my list:
Charge of the White Brigade
It will take me some time to digest it all, here are my first impressions:
I made a mistake when i first posted the deck list, there are 23 total lands, including the 4 Flagstones of Trokair.
The Armageddons are staying, at least for now. I find that people aren't really prepared for them. With the Flagstones of Trokair, the knowledge of when the Armageddon is coming and the very low mana curve of this deck, a successfully cast Armageddon almost always winds up in my favor. I'm more then happy to play multiple Armageddons in a game.
I'm on the fence about the Tethered Griffin. I do see what you're saying about these cards, but I have found him useful. The only enchantments I have are +1/+1 boosts, so anytime the Tethered Griffin hits the table, it's at least a 3/4 flier for W. I'm not totally against switching these out for something else, Ill be looking into some of the cards you mentioned.
I have been considering going down to 3 Isamaru, Hound of Kondas for the reason you pointed out. I haven't done it yet because I really want to have it in my hand early on, and his legendary status hasn't bitten me very often.
I also see what you're saying about the Tundra Wolves. Sometimes in the past I've taken them out for other 1 drop creatures. I always wind up putting them back in. In the paragraph where you talk about the Tundra Wolves, you mention 5 other one drop creatures. Tundra Wolves kills all 5 of them, and lives to fight another day against 3 of them. I know that's not everything, but it's something. The one drop first striker seems big to me.
I am interested in some of the creatures youve suggested as replacements for the Order of the White Shield. I'll have to look into them more. Right now Knight of Meadowgrain is in the lead, with some of the Soltari cards a close second. I've always been wary of shadow, because even though it makes the creature almost unblockable, it also makes the creature almost useless as a blocker.
The Soltari Champion would probably be my pick of the shadow creatures, but i'm trying to keep the mana curve as low as possible. Right now the only card that costs me more then WW is Armageddon. I'm not sure if I want to start putting 3 drop creatures in.
Thanks again for your insight.
The Precious
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White Weenie is--except when it's playing against a deck even faster than itself--the aggressor. The end goal is to get the opponent from 20 to 0 as quickly as possible, preferably not much after turn 5 or 6. White Weenie is a "fair" deck with no real back-breaking plays; the longer the game goes on, the more likely White Weenie is to lose to their opponent's card advantage, superior late game plays, or both. Things like Armageddon can mitigate this dynamic to an extent, but only inasmuch as you already have the advantage on the board. (The first Armageddon should be enough on its own to put the game away, otherwise something is wrong.)
Two (interrelated) things to consider as you try and maximize your damage: mana curve and power level.
Strategically, White Weenie wants to be using as much of its available mana as possible each and every turn--i.e. you want to "curve out" as efficiently as possible. That means a 1-drop on turn 1, a 2-drop or two 1-drops on turn 2, a 3-drop or a 1-drop and a 2-drop on turn 3, etc. Turns 4-5 and beyond, White Weenie wants to drop something that's going to put the game away--things like your Crusade effects, high-powered equipment like Umezawa's Jitte, Batterskull, Sword of Fire and Ice, Sword of War and Peace, etc., or mass land destruction like Armageddon, if you're into that. Essentially, White Weenie wants to have enough things to do of the appropriate power level on each and every turn.
This would be my overarching critique of your deck as it's currently constructed: it doesn't appear that you have enough good things to do on each turn, especially not after turns 1 or 2.
You need more and better creatures to win the damage race. I don't know when the last time was that you regularly played Magic, but there's been substantial power creep over the years, particularly with regards to creatures. Here are some of the kinds of things you can potentially find yourself up against within the first few turns of a game: Tarmogoyf, Delver of Secrets, Nimble Mongoose, Siege Rhino, Courser of Kruphix, Monastery Mentor, True-Name Nemesis, Thought-Knot Seer, Knight of the Reliquary, Watchwolf, Vexing Devil. I know back in the day that White pretty much had a monopoly on good, on-curve creatures with relevant abilities; that is no longer the case.
21 creatures--8 of which are 1-power 1-drops--is not really going to cut it, even with Crusade effects. I'd also state the obvious, which is that Crusade effects are better when you have more creatures on the table.
Here's a breakdown of your current "curve", based on the first turn that you can realistically play a creature (irrespective of actual mana cost):
Turn 1: 12
Turn 2: 4
Turn 3: 2
Turn 4: 3
You start off strong with Isamaru; I still disagree with the decision to run 4 because of the issues I outlined above, but it's not entirely indefensible to do so. I think your intuition that 3 is the correct number is spot on. Tundra Wolves is OK, but you'd be better served running more creatures with 2 power for W to maximize early turn damage; your 1/1 first-striker is going to be obsoleted by turn 2 or 3 no matter what--your opponent might even have superior 1-drops such as Kird Ape, Goblin Guide, Wild Nacatl, or Loam Lion--whereas a 2/1 for W could at least potentially trade with a bigger creature later on while getting more damage in in the early game. Perhaps you haven't played with Mother of Runes to appreciate just how powerful and versatile it is, but it should be an auto-include. It's actually good past turn 2 or 3, because it can (a) block and give itself protection from the attacking creature's color; (b) protect your other creatures from removal spells; (c) give your creatures evasion via protection.
The 2-drop slot is where your deck could really get a boost--your deck only has 4 real turn-2 plays: the 4 Order of the White Shields. Tethered Griffin can only be played as early as turn 3, and only if you have a Crusade; Serra Avenger isn't playable until turn 4. I'd recommend increasing the number of 2/x creatures for WW; most decks I've seen run 12-14 such creatures. This ensures you always have a reasonable turn 2 play, and you can combine a second 2-drop with a 1-drop for a potent turn-3 play.
On that note, I absolutely think you should run a handful of 3-mana creatures. You have 23 lands in the deck; you will almost invariably have 3 lands on turn 3; this is elementary, but the most powerful things you can be doing on turn-3 will cost the full 3 mana, whether it's playing a 3-mana creature or playing 2 creatures that collectively cost 3 mana. Another great card that I forgot to mention before is Spectral Procession; it creates three 1/1 flying spirit tokens for 3 mana, which is potent with 1 Crusade effect and absolutely bonkers with 2. I will reiterate that Mirran Crusader is an absolute beating; it's effectively a 4/2 for 1WW that deals half of its damage as first strike damage and has protection from 2 of the 3 colors you would most want your creatures to have protection from (the third color is red.) It is far and away more powerful than anything your deck is currently doing on turn 3, and it's squarely on curve for your deck.
I've made the following changes:
-1 Isamaru, Hound of Konda
-2 Tethered Griffin
-1 Crusade
+4 Soltari Champion
this brings me to 22 creatures.
Im also considering taking out 1 more crusade and adding 1 soltari priest to add to my shadow creature contingant because the soltari champion kind of gives me a crusade effect. Even though its 1 more mana and only works for attacking. This change would bring me to 23 creatures, but make it slightly harder to pump them up. With 5 shadow creatures, maybe i should make a better mix of the 2 drop ones and the 3 drop ones. Instead of 4 of 1 and 1 of the other, maybe I should do a 3 / 2 split.
I'm relatively certain that I'm going to replace all 4 Order of the White Shield with 4 Knight of Meadowgrain. Let me know if you think there's a better choice.
Then your only other creature advice would be to loose the Tundra Wolves? Maybe replace them with 4 Mother of Runes?
Is there anything else you think I should change?
Thanks again for your help.
The Precious
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If i take out 1 more crusade and go down to 22 lands that leaves 2 open slots. If you count the 4 slots im planning on making knight of the meadowgrain that makes six 2 drop slots.
How should i fill them?
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben seems like a 2 drop that i dont want to play on turn 2. It messes with a lot of my cards, i feel like id have to make massive changes to the deck to make it work.
The cards im interested in for the six slots are:
knight of the meadowgrain
knight of the holy nimbus
accorder paladin
grand abolisher
knight of the meadowgrain seems like the best of the bunch to me, that leaves 2 slots up in the air. How do you think i should fill the 6 slots?
Thanks
The Precious
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Regarding 2-drops, Spectral Rider, Selfless Spirit, or Kor Aeronaut could be useful evasion. Porcelain Legionnaire is one of the highest powered 2-drops with first strike you can find. Sigiled Paladin could empower your 1-drop the turn it enters the battlefield and can attack as a lone 3 power first strike itself. Consul's Lieutenant can quite easily grow into a 3/2 first striker and boost your entire attacking team on subsequent attacks. Precinct Captain gives you more tokens every time it hits a player.
I also agree, that you could use a handful of good 3-drops. Mirran Crusader and Silverblade Paladin were mentioned before, and EMN brought Thalia, Heretic Cathar which can hamper an opponent's defense nicely while also being a 3-powered first sriker.
As far as removal spells go, a nice 1-mana option even for monowhite is Dismember. If you're the aggressor, those 4 life points don't really matter, especially if you have ways to regain life, like that Knight of Meadowgrain.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
Granted, again, some weenies are just heads and shoulders above the others. I'd almost universally recommend Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, although in the case of your deck the strategy is inextricably linked with landing a Crusdae effect and then casting Armegeddon that maybe you should give it a pass. Mother of Runes is another such creature, which is why I was adamant that you should include her.
As to some of the weenies you mentioned: Grand Abolisher is one of those situational weenies; it's only really good if you intend to see a bunch of control decks, but even then it seems like a bit of a singleton inclusion, or possibly better relegated to the sideboard. Accorder Paladin is decent, but if you're looking for a 3-power creature for 2 mana, the aforementioned Porcelain Legionnaire is superior; if you want the "battle cry" effect, I'd give Consul's Lieutenant a look instead. You also have a glut of such effects already; if you do include the Paladin or the Lieutenant, I'd cut the third Crusade and maybe a couple of the Champions.
For your consideration, a complete rebuild of your deck based on the principles and ideas I've discussed in this and my previous posts. It's a bar-napkin version, obviously; you'd need to tinker with it to make sure the curve works right and that it fits your needs and preferences, but it should serve as a decent jumping-off point:
3 Judge's Familiar
4 Mother of Runes
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
3 Consul's Lieutenant
3 Soltari Priest
2 Serra Avenger
2 Soltari Champion
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Honor of the Pure
2 Crusade
3 Armageddon
3 Flagstones of Trokair
19 Plains
A few things I've done that you may or may not agree with, with explanation:
(1) Cut a single copy of Armageddon--I don't think you ever want a second copy clogging your hand; the game should be over by that point. And, again, if you're up against another, more aggressive deck, it is likely to be a dead card.
(2) Cut a single copy of Flagstones of Trokair--the legendary clause is slightly problematic if you draw two; it's at its best with Armageddon
(3) Cut a single copy of Judge's Familiar--it's a little bit situational; I gave you more evasion elsewhere, and the deck needed an extra slot for 2-drops.
(4) Cut two copies of Soltari Champion--I shifted some of the shadow evasion into the cheaper Soltari Priest. I shifted your buff effect into the cheaper Consul's Leiutenant to smooth out your mana curve.
(5) Removed a copy of Serra Avenger, replaced with a singleton Mirran Crusader--the Avenger is a great card, but you're not running Aether Vial, which at the end of the day means it's a bit of a vanilla 3/3 flyer on turn 4--at the earliest. Don't get me wrong, it's still very powerful, though not as much so as if you had the Vial. You needed another 3-turn play since I cut a couple of Champions, and I thought you could stand to give the Crusader a try, so I added one copy.
Partly based on things you've said, Ive changed the deck to the list that is currently at the top of this thread.
I took out the Tundra Wolves and put in Mother of Runes
Ive decided that my 2 drop spots will be a mix of Knight of Meadowgrain and Porcelain Legionnaire. Right now I'm going with 4 knights and 2 legionnaires, but I might change that.
I'm also considering what you've said about taking out 1 Armageddon. If I did that, I would probably add a third Porcelain Legionnaire.
Just so I'm clear about some of the cards I've added, I can cast the Porcelain Legionnaire with either 2 and 2 life or 2 W, correct?
and the mother of runes can block a much larger creature, then tap to give herself protection from that creature's color, the creature remains blocked, and the mother takes no damage, correct?
thanks again
The Precious
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Lets say i get 2 in my hand, turn 1 i play a flagstones of trokair then whatever 1 drop i have.
Turn 2 i tap the flagstones of trokair then play my second flagstones of trokair. I choose the tapped one to go to the graveyard, search my library for a plains put it into play tapped, then tap my remaining flagstones of trokair, and have enough mana for my 2 drop. I finish turn 2 with my 1 drop out, my 2 drop out, and 2 tapped lands.
Isnt it the same as if i played 2 plains, just with the added armageddon benefit?
Am i doing it wrong?
The Precious
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Yes.
correct. Though if the attacker has trample, it still only has to assign 1 damage to the Mother before being able to trample over.
Former Rules Advisor
"Everything's better with pirates." - Lodge
(The Gamers: Dorkness Rising)
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science."
(Girl Genius - Fairy Tale Theater Break - Cinderella, end of volume 8)
But if I'm wrong, Soldier Stompy sounds kind of like it's an inferior version of Eldrazi Aggro... he should probably just look into that.
Soldier stompy was one of the weaker Chalice-Stompy or Cavern/tribal decks like Merfolk, AIR, Dragon Stompy, Goblins etc, but in the last two months it has gotten new Thalia and Recruiter of the guard, both of which can be cast t1. Thalia II has given it a huge boost. I have seen a couple of lists with new Thalia in that have done well in the past few weeks, I would not be surprised if it slow burnt its way up the meta like Infect did. Either way its more WW than Eldrazi, hence the suggestion. Its also in this forum and quite an active thread.
also, you might wanna think about adding in some wastelands and some fetch lands. fetches help to thin your deck (not so amazingly useful, but it can be), wastelands help colour-screw your opponents; keeping them off important colours like green/red against RUG and so on.
Legacy - Solidarity - mono U aggro - burn - Imperial Painter - Strawberry Shortcake - Bluuzards - bom
Schweineffet is arguably right about the Wastelands to the extent that you anticipate running into worthwhile targets. As your deck is currently configured, your mana costs don't really skew all that heavily towards double-white, so your deck could probably support three and maybe even four copies. Again, you really should only do this if you anticipate seeing multicolor decks with heavy color commitments or decks with powerful utility lands that screw with your game plan.
Finally, as to the equipment, Swords are nice but not necessarily essential; I personally like the Stoneforge Mystic with a couple of different equipments for added variety and utility, but that's just me. If you're on the global-buff plan--which you most definitely are--the Swords, while powerful, are mana intensive and don't really mesh with your deck's game plan. I do like equipment + Mystic more if you add the Wastelands, because of the colorless.
anyway, heres the current list
4 Judge's Familiar
4 mother of runes
4 knight of meadowgrain
2 white shield crusader
3 porcelain legionnaire
2 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 soltari champion
2 serra avenger
4 honor of the pure
4 swords to plowshares
3 disenchant
2 karakas
1 flagstones of trokair
1 eiganjo castle
16 plains
the biggest question i have lately is trying to add helpful lands. is 2 karakas 1 too many because of the legendary clause? did i miss any other lands i should put in, ive only really been considering lands that enter the battle field untapped and tap for W. the deck runs pretty well and i dont want to give up tempo.
also im considering trying to squeeze in 1 or 2 student of warfare. im not sure what to cut for it...
thanks for any advice you might have, just keep in mind that i want the deck to stay legacy legal, and ive kind of put a cap of $50 on any individual card in the deck
The Precious
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