I'm not sure 8 fetches is the right number. I'm already using 6 "special lands" that can all be abused with moonfolk type abilities(Floodbringer/Trade Routes/Mana Breach/Meloku/Treva's land=6)/Sakura Scout.
Sejiri Steppe: instant anti-removal/unblockable
Khalni Garden: good for chump blockers/ protection against sacrifice
Bojuka Bog: Anti-graveyard abuse
Tranquil Thicket: Cycling helps both kotr, draw, as well as life loam
Treva's Ruins: seems like a better Glaciers, so removed Glaciers?
I know I'm supposed to commit, but i don't want to commit to the wrong strategy so I'm kinda brainstorming.
I should remove: Mana Breach, Floodbringer, Manabond, and????? or somethin else? I just want a deck thats good, flows well, and doesn't repeat too much, except for recursion lol.
do you think it would be better to do a life from the loam/tilling treefolk strategy with maybe 3-4 cycling lands. I believe if I'm not mistaken cycling lands can be done at instant speed, so its potentially a neat combat trick for kotr.
Being able to refresh the cycling and etb effects through recursion and sakura tribe scout. One distinct advantage this strategy offers is Sylvan TutorZuran Orb and fetch lands become that much more powerful.
Or go the moonfolk route with extra land play cards like sakura-tribe scout and something else thats relatively cheap. I looked at the moonfolk cards and none of them overwhelmed me to be deck-worthy except meloku. Mana Breach seems potentially interesting, like game changing. Combining Aura Shards and Glare of Subdual with Khalni Garden and Meloku the Clouded Mirror smells like a powerful way to get around Mana Breach.
Life from the loam+cycling lands offers a stronger card advantage engine, which is what your deck really lacks at the moment. Optimally, you cycle 2 lands and on the third, opt to dredge the LFTL instead of drawing. Next turn, you recast the LFTL for 3 cycling lands and do it again. It's mana intensive, but really powerful and hard to disrupt with counters. Really, only grave hate stymies it.
Not sure if land mix is right or even close. I'm okay with 61 cards?
Can Trade Routes effectively replace the cycling lands?
pros:
-every land has cycling.
-uncounterable land effects without destroying Trade Routes
-no stipulation on type of mana spent to do it.
cons:
-susceptible to enchantment removal
Meloku is such a baller card for this deck. It doesn't appear to be that great. But it's devastating with Skyline Cascade and the Scout. It prevents 2 enemy creatures(most of them at least) from doing damage for next to nothing. It can actually prevent up to 4 creatures from doing much with that combo if things are done right. The only thing that can stop it, in particular, is protection from blue, or a combination of creature inate abilities like hexproof, shroud, trample, double strike.
I like Prophet more than Seedborn because at that point in the game I can almost certainly protect against a lightning bolt, vs. flashing in creatures.
I don't have Teeg, Aura Shards, LftL, or the fetches. But it's been fun to play. Usually I fall behind, gain control... ... ... ... ... and then finally fall behind again. It's like you say, not enough draw to get the answers/finishers when I need them.
You're trying to do too much in this deck. If you're going to do aggro/combo like knightfall, then do that, otherwise, pick a theme and stick with it. Right now you are all over the place. Life from the loam+cycling lands=very nasty card advantage engine that is hard to disrupt. Trade routes is bad for the reason that lftl is good. LFTL can be countered, but it's back. You can use one shot graveyard hate on it, but you'll probably have more to show up later. Only rest in peace or similar completely shuts it down, and guess what? You're in two of the strongest colors for blowing enchantments to holy hell.
I don't even have issues with running melokus, but if you are going to, it might be better to add in more lotus cobras. Reasoning? Lotus cobrax2+ meloku+patron of the moon=infinite illusion tokens. Even one cobra out makes for a metric crap ton of tokens, or you can just have the patron of the moon out and pay 3 mana for 2 tokens, 2 landfall triggers, and no setback because you returned them.
But with that said, you can't search for either patron of the moon or meloku off of green sun's zenith, and if you're going to run that card, you want 4 to begin with. It will be the single greatest piece of consistency in your deck. With it, you've got 7 copies of any green creature (last time I checked, every creature you desperately wanted to see was green). Without it, only 4 at most.
Prophet of kruphix is kind of "win more." You need something that allows you to take control of the game earlier, and he isn't it. Courser of kruphix+ sylvan library is a pretty solid synergy and they both are good on their own. I would run courser over grazing gladeheart, honestly.
Glare of subdual is awesome in token decks, which you aren't. Remove it. Same with Aura shards. It's good in some decks, but you only have 15 creatures and two that may produce tokens. bleh! If you're that far along that you can afford to cast these creatures, then you already have control of the game.
Yuck..I guess I'm all over the place. I don't think blue is going to help you much. If it is, then you definitely want 4 brainstorm and possibly the retreat to coralhelm combo with knight of the reliquary (put him back to 4, would ya?) and some counters in the side. Meloku, the clouded mirror and trade routes won't help much, unfortunately. You already have better control conditions, blue doesn't offer removal, though red or black does. If you want board control, then a very few select lands+ knight of the reliquary does offer it at instant speed. If you're worried about creature swarms, then you might consider a wrath of god effect in the sideboard. You're already in white, so again, that leaves blue out. If you insist on keeping blue and oblivion ring, then -oblivion ring, + detention sphere. It's slightly better.
If it were me, the deck you have would look something like this:
this looks terrific. I am missing a handful of cards before I can playtest it but this really helped simplify things for me.
1 cobra
1 courser
1 gaddock
3 zenith's
3 LftL
all the fetches
Thanks for your great help. I look forward to playing this deck.
-KotR: Combat Tricks +1
-Can find Steppe/Bog/Ith/Cycling or fetches, its really hard to find target "non-basic" land
Loam doesn't mind the extra lands in the graveyard either.
I mean I get it: Crop Rotation is a cheaper card, but I'm not necessarily looking to put cycling lands in play. Of course its good with Sylvan Safekeeper/Loam. Do you think this card is a worth addition?
Question 2:
If Loam is my drawing engine with the cycle lands. Do I still need Sylvan/Courser if I have 4 tutors as well? If I'm gonna use Loam it would be a travesty not to use Eternal Witness in case I toss away something I want. Courser will be taking up 4 slots and this deck will excel at thinning out my library of lands. I mean there will be 16 cards that find lands (CR,KotR,fetches)
I already have 2 courser/2 sylvan and when I've playtested them together, yeah its more or less +1 card advantage every turn.
More over, Lotus Cobra + KotR + Armageddon is gg?
There is a flaw with this deck: If I don't have a crop rotation or Sejirri Steppe in hand. I can't attack with KotR AND protect him. Is this something I should worry much about, because its a problem until I get my tutors and teeg. I can't wait to get Life from the Loams, so I can change that Zuran Orb into a Sylvan Safekeeper.
Realms uncharted has no real place in here. If you wanted that sort of thing, then blue for gifts ungiven or intuition is just better, as it lets you find life from the loam too. But if you're using these cards to set up a combo, there are strictly better combos to go for. Also, you don't necessarily need to be putting them directly into the graveyard. Even if you use one as mana early on/later on (lotus cobra uses it as mana, even on the enters tapped clause) and then sacrifice one to sylvan safekeeper, it allows you to get it back later. For you, life from the loam+cycling lands is a card draw engine. I would suggest looking up on google these old deck names:
CAL
Assault-loam
astral slide
All of them use variants of the engine described and should give you an idea of what you can do with it.
Probably need to focus on anti-blue more than anything. So I picked these out. I don't have many ways of prolonging if my opponent is heavy weenie agression.
Honorable Mentions? Kitchen Finks: great aggro stopper Ouphe Vandals: Brown is cheaper and better imo Rust Scarab: probably not worth it since they won't block him if there's some sort of menacing thing on the field Scarwood Bandits: Green control on artifacts? hahahaha Sakura-Tribe Elder: Good for post Armageddon(too situational?) Search for Tomorrow: Good pre-Armageddon(ts?) Rooting Kavu: different kind of eternal witness Groundskeeper: because I'll typically have a lot of my lands in my graveyard after Armageddon, won't draw very many Centaur Vinecrasher: seems like a better Terravore to me Strangleroot Geist: this card is probably pretty good as a 4 of to increase the aggression while maintaining position against mass removal, but mass removal isn't likely to happen after a 'geddon Sylvan Hierophant: kind of any interesting card, but E-Wit is just better Temur Sabertooth: another interesting anti-mass removal on a small scale. I'm actually surprised someone hasn't broken this card with etb effects. Like a dredge deck with a bunch E-Wit's. Thornling: I'd rather see vigilance than haste here, but it could be a great beater Thresher Beast: kind of good, but probably better in a more aggressive and less combo deck Thrun, the Last Troll: doesn't do anything against mass removal, its just a good card Viridian Emissary: Would like this more if the land didn't enter tapped... Second Sunrise: to play this maybe Wall of Roots: not a bad dual function card Witchstalker: against blue black control decks... hahahaha Dauntless Escort: its okay Dryad Militant: if I wasn't using Loam as my draw engine: auto-include, probably outclassed in function by crop rotating a bojuka bog Mistcutter Hydra: don't think I need more blue hate than the 3 cards I mentioned already
Why do you need so much blue hate? Life from the loam already does a pretty good job of giving blue decks the middle finger. You just need to make sure your late game is better than theirs. If you're after anti aggro, then swords to plowshares+ courser of kruphix is just better and you have already had variants that can use it pretty well.
Blue decks typically need a fair bit of mana to function, at least control variants. Armageddon will surely give them the middle finger. Of course, that doesn't include tempo varieties as they can function just fine off of one or two lands. However, you're not really playing a deck that functions all that well off of an armageddon. It's similar to a very old deck concept called ernham geddon. If you really want to give them the middle finger, then stick it to them where it hurts...the cantrips. You play very few cmc 1 things, but you can surely play chalice of the void at 1.
For searchable things in green, I highly recommend scavenging ooze and deathrite shaman. Both do an excellent job of hosing graveyards and other things besides. You're not playing tarmogoyfs and really only care about lands in graveyard, so why not give them the middle finger, too! If you want blue hate, then most of these cards I don't like. But I do like vexing shusher. I think there are better things to do, but he does exactly what he says he is going to do, and that's turn off counter spells.
If you want an additional three mana beater, I would really consider only a terravore or two. If you do that, though, then you really want to play up your early mana sources. Maybe some sol lands like ancient tomb or city of traitors, though they are only good for colorless and are really obnoxious when you're trying to cast something with multiple colors in the casting cost.
You're really starting to venture into the fields of trinity green (there is a thread further down the page you should look at) or stompy (aggro-stax). I don't know what you play against, but knowing some meta knowledge will be helpful.
there was a 4/4 beast +4 life anti-discard for 4 mana that looked nice for anti-black anti-aggro
Thragtusk and Kitchen Finks also both seems like good additions to prolong a game
the board sweepers looked interesting, particularly because this deck can actually get overpowered by weenies. Momentarily considered adding black but I don't think i've ever made a 3 color deck, and if I did I would probably need a LOT of lands considering my draw engine is based off lands.
the sol lands: this is interesting, has a good use with GSZ and the more expensive parts of the deck. Wouldn't mind sac'ing it obviously with a Cobra out.
What I took from the column, at least the parts I could follow:
-Need to prolong an aggro game til my aggro-combo game can take over.
-Blue is popular in every meta
I get that Smokestack and Tanglewire are popular right now. I am not enthused to use those artifacts.
I have roughly 9 open slots to beat the meta.
-I beat a Boros pyromancer/disk deck. Boros Charm gave me a headache with disc, but I eventually outlasted him in game two after a fast game 1. The blue version with Jace and that 3/2 flyer dude seems like it would be tougher.
The only thing that's bad about Geddon is that my deck is really good at thinning itself of lands. So even when I blast geddin on turn 4 or 5 I'll end up having AT LEAST a third of my lands in my graveyard.
With that said, Lotus Cobra loves the Geddon mana advantage. And the Cobra will really like every fetch turning into a dark ritual.
I will update my deck because it really only has like 5 slots or so right now.
You've provided so much help so far, I mean just look at the deck on the first page and compare it to this. This is much more competitive. Something I've never done before, I probably wouldn't be able to win many tournaments with a deck that will likely be similar to this, but i'd definitely kick some ass in a lot of spots.
So basically Boseiju and Loam engine is enough to beat blue? Because I could in essence Boseiju a GSZ for any creature? But then shouldn't I at least sideboard a Spellbane Centaur so Jace can't unsummon my creatures? Possibly sideboard Boseiju/Spellbane Centaur/man-land. It's going to be a long game without them, that you're right, I'd probably win with Loam.
I kind of got away from so much protection for Cobra Knight. There just isn't any green creature that gives my creatures hexproof at a cheap cost.
I mean there's Ranger's Guile: inefficient luck-based
Ascetism: can't search for it
Archetype: hella expensive Spellskite: not green Sylvan Scrying is not an instant if I went back to the Sakura-Tribe dude.
I mean there's so many schinanigans that the Sakura Tribe dude can pull off. I don't think I need Scryb Ranger, although that's a very good card.
Should I add Sakura-Tribe Scout and use Loam/SS to have Sejiri Steppe up my sleeve? I probably wouldn't need him until after I pull the Crop Rotate trick anyway. This seems to be the most efficient way to recur the protection that is searchable with GSZ. I mean i could just search for SS, but that won't stop deathtouch. I know SS/Sakura-Steppe seems redundant, I just don't wanna turn my opponents kill spells into LD too often.
Could add BoP's and just not use any plains? Possibly delve into black for removal. I like Swords particularly because it removes certain indestructible things.
If Loam beats blue, and I have a healthy amount of anti-black, then all I really need is tanks with lifegain? Which makes me kind of like Obstinate Baloth more than Kitchen Finks 2:2? 4:0? 0:4?
I can't protect against artifacts though, so artifact decks tend to be tough matchups(particular disc/deathcoil... haven't seen tanglestax, it would probably kick my ass). Considering I'm not using artifacts/enchantments sideboard: 1x Brown Ouphe and 4x Purify
KotR with Titania seems like land sweeps and A/E sweeps look good to me.
Is Oblivion Ring or Song of the Dryads better for this deck? Should I use them?
Should I use Eternal Witness because this isn't a Dredge deck. E-Wit's good in other areas too but I would hate to put a wincon in the Grave with Loam.
Courser just doesn't make that much sense if my library has 8 lands in 40 cards left. Sylvan Library is good regardless, but I just don't think its better than Loam-cycles, not even close.
Song of the dryads is awesome if you're in mono green or green/red, but most other color combinations have better options available. As you've noted, white has oblivion ring, swords to plowshares, etc. If show and tell is a big part of your meta, then yes, I would consider one of them or heck a couple of them. They show and tell in an emrakul, you show and tell in a oblivion ring/song of the dryads and laugh manically.
Personally, I would still run both sylvan library and loam, but maybe only two of each. You only want to see one life from the loam per game. Sylvan library is good on turn two, but life from the loam is not. It also doesn't cost mana, whereas life and cycling does. Also, if you're using a cycling land engine, blowing up your manabase is rather bad, even if you can get it back.
Why do you need hexproof? You're not targeting your own stuff, so what you have is sylvan safekeeper, which grants shroud. Shroud is harder to deal with because there are very few ways to remove it. In fact, the only way I know to do so is arcane lighthouse, a commander land that wouldn't see play except in one very weird and desperate legacy meta. It also has the rather nasty advantage of being very nastily synergistic with titania.
Artifacts are an issue? In particular, there are MANY better ways to blow them ALL up in green alone. Off the top of my head::
If you need lifegain (which you had incremental lifegain with the courser and a large butt, two reasons I very much like him), then kitchen finks comes down one turn sooner and is harder to remove, but he doesn't give you life quite as fast. Speed is everything vs. burn decks which is where you need that lifegain.
Have you acquired wastelands or are they too pricey for you? If you're going with a loam engine, that is one of the very single best cards you could add.
If you see a lot of discard/liliana of the veil AND for some reason, are still worried about blue, then the second beater I would add is...loxodon smiter. It's only a 4/4, but it can't be countered, only costs 3, and plops straight onto the battlefield if your opponent makes you discard it. If you're worried only about jace bouncing, then there are better things to add. Thrun, the last troll, being among the very best. Now he gives a bit fat middle finger to both blue and black.
The other option to worry about jace bouncing is just to attack him with more than one creature or prevent him from hitting with a gaddock teeg. That's usually called going wide, but if you over extend, you can walk right into a wrath and that's bad.
If you do keep playing this list loam style, I think you're going to find eventually that exploration is still arguably the most powerful addition you could add in. I know it's not cheap, but it will help more than about anything else. Other than that, this deck is a bit of a mishmash between stompy/stax, maverick (hate bears), astral slide/cal (loam engine), etc. that's not bad, but you've got to figure out what works best for you!
I like Creeping Corrosion for 4 and fracturing gust for 5. Krosan Grip and Nature's Claim always good. Don't have any. I'm thinking 1 of each, maybe?
My colors have always been greenblue and/or black but I'm yet to construct all 3. Reasoning: Red and White tend to be more aggro, and I don't like putting all my eggs in that basket... and then topdecking. I love love love card advantage so the mass A/E removal appeals to me.
I haven't actually had much of an issue with Jace, unless they use return on the first turn. Sejirri/Swords typically lets me at the very least get a cobra through to him.
Generally speaking, Ravages of War and Teeg both have the same effect on mass removal.
Ideally I'm trying to get to the spot where I have Cobra Knight out and I take out all the lands. And then its a race between me getting a really big KotR through 2-3 times vs. them removing him. I had a Sylvan Library out too in one game. Yea, he conceded. Suffice to say, I like Maverick.
I like mid-range. I like card draw. I much prefer control to aggro. I don't like control so much as to make a counterspell deck. Those are lame.
I faced a Pox deck once. It obliterated me. Probably why I'm trying to hate on black so much. I just couldn't get past Pox/Hymn/aggro weenies.
I still gotta buy 3 GSZ, 1 Cobra(maybe), fetchlands, Loams. Wastelands is too much. I usually just buy booster packs and hope I land a Jace, Vryn's Prodigy like I did once lol.
Like right now I'm trying to get by with Tilling TreefolkGrasslands. Cheap knock-offs that just aren't as good.
Yea its like an Ernham deck. But KotR is like Ernham on steroids.
Loam is going to be really important. Like really important. That and the GSZ's are the first thing I'm buying. What can I say I like card draw, so the prospect of having a Loam engine draw WITH GSZ finding answers with a Boseiju. Yeah I'm gonna destroy Blue decks.
My deck is not that strong over the first 2 turns. There's that window where I can get behind.
Then there's a window where I just won't draw any lands because maybe half my lands are in the graveyard on turn 6. I mean yeah Crucible of Worlds. But, meh that's going infinite.
Like I'm teetering between speeding myself up, anti-aggro with tank/life, anti A/E... And then I mention Sylvan Library... card draw... shazam!!!! lol
The one control deck that is going to eat you alive even with geddon is miracles. Their primary control condition is counter balance and sensei's divining top, but their mass removal spell of choice costs just W. I am referring to terminus and your only out to it maindeck would be a gaddock teeg. But, I don't know your meta at all.
You could theoretically back off a bit on fetches and run a few manlands instead. They are slower, but get around mass removal like terminus barring shenanigans and are another aggro route that works with your loam engine.
that's two mentions of Loxodon Smiter. I don't get lifegain, but thats less important than black/blue hate with a fat butt. Do I need lifegain? I mean its really only good to prolong a game. I'm not seeing much of a needs for lifegain except against UR.
Cascade is good, no? Just not so many besides BBE. Some lands have hideaway. So my question is: if this hideaway land casts a spell, can it still be countered? Whether it resolves or not, can I do it again next turn?
Mishra's Factory/Mutavault seems efficient Treetop Village always liked this card, more than the 2/2's, extra 1 mana for shock-proof/trample Nantuko Monastery a lot of lands go into my graveyard + dredge. Could be useful. Raging Ravine red splash but seems interesting Safe Haven this could actually be a gem. Like if I can't stop losing a Cobra or Knight or something, or I know a *** is coming. I could sac the land to avoid those sorceries and then Geddon? Glacial Chasm: bye bye Naya aggro issues lol, would probably need more lifegain though. Stirring Wildwood makes probably the most sense since I'm susceptible to flying for now. Another fat butt.
All in all I'm most intrigued by Treetop, Haven, Chasm, and Wildwood. I don't think I missed any that are relevant. And maybe those Hideaway cards, which would practically force me to play Sylvan Library(which I don't mind). It's obviously a powerful card, moreso with shuffling.
Maybe 6 fetches instead of 8? I've kind of moved away from landfall a bit. Might even get away with 4 and a couple grasslands lol.
I researched a GW maverick deck a little. I was pleased to learn that this deck looks similar albeit some tweaks. I usually play on Magic Online in the Just for Fun section. Both of my last matches were against artifacts. I should have won them both instead of just one match. Prowess also seems to be popular. I saw a Counterbalance and Pox before. Both were horrid to play against in my current Grasslands, Sylvan Tutor, Tilling, BoP, O-Ring form. Though Boseiju will force my more important spells through: Like Lotus Cobra, Loam, KotR, GSZ, Geddon: which is basically the deck.
Teeg is good. He just takes away GSZ sometimes, and Geddon. That's the only thing I don't like. Those are critical control cards.
Love for the man-lands. They're just great against creature-less board-sweeping decks. Cause if KotR doesn't overpower a creature-based deck. Titania will.
I actually changed out Lotus Cobra for Birds of Paradise.
-I'm not playing multiple lands a turn.
-Can play KotR on turn 2, and Ravages on turn 3... which could actually make KotR bigger than you might anticipate with cycling/fetches.
I do lose value on a 2/1 body attacking body, but I can chump flyers.
I also lose fetchlands making extra mana, and etb tapped lands making mana
I've been playing with both recently.
Played against a Leyline of the Void/Deathrite Shaman. It was brutal.
I included Birds of Paradise:
-allows me to protect a Lotus Cobra turn 2 drop with crop rotation trick
-allows Knight to come out on turn 2 if I choose
-allows Knight and Sylvan Safekeeper to be played on turn 3 simultaneously.
-allows mana production past a Geddin
-would much rather lose BoP than either Cobra Knight towards a sacrifice.
The only thing that can stop this consistently is mass creature removal, like you said. I basically have to Geddin before they ***, that's the current gameplan. You have a valid point with Teeg. People won't *** a BoP + Cobra, so I could play the Knight with just those 2 out and any non-tap land, after a Geddin. With that said I haven't seen a pure miracle deck yet.
I've been playing with Sylvan Library in my test deck, and its too good even without fetches(CR/Grasslands/KotR). It will be disgusting when I can shuffle at instant speed.
I need answers to graveyard hate and there's not many. Deathrite Shaman has been a much bigger pain than any other particular card(so I don't suppose I need to use white stuff that gives me hexproof, Thank God). White gets protection and hexproof. Why doesn't green have hexproof for anything besides creatures.
I think most people prefer the targeted removal(DS) to something like Tormod's Crypt anyway. With that said, green has some okay "fight cards". Path to Exile isn't bad either, especially if I'm about to Geddin anyway... Actually, Path to Exile could put a hurtin on a counterbalance deck, if it has a creature out anyway... And it isn't countered from hand(Nobody shuffles opponents library at instant speed)... On a side not, "exile" even existing is a joke, imo.
Came across Dromoka's Command, it seems like it could be somewhat efficient. Not that I really struggle with Red aggro decks. KotR comes out and they're down to their burn cards. I beat a gobbo deck 2-0, though the 2nd game left me with 1 life.
PS: I do like the Shaman, just not playing against him.
Mentioned before: but I think I'd have to include a Glacial Chasm. No? I'm pretty sure the life payment goes 2-4-6-8-etc.? This could be the storm answer?
deck really does need Wasteland/Loam. I know Wasteland is super expensive, but its recurrable land destruction which would mean I wouldnt necessarily need Geddon's. I would just need to draw a Loam or Sylvan Library with the cyclers.
One could crop rotation into a glacial chasm in response to a storm spell, but it won't stop tendrils of agony from killing you. Loss of life is not the same as damage. Damage causes life loss, unfortunately. The smartest thing you can do when facing storm is to put to use something like silence and aggro them out, or use thalia, guardian of thraben, etc. in the sideboard. Clock+disruption is how you stop them.
Oh, how I wish Thalia was green or not legendary. And yeah white has a few +1 cost guys but they're more expensive and don't have first strike.
Teeg + 3/4 Geddin's generally stuffs *** and MOST mass removal. 3 is a good number? With/without Wasteland? (60 is a lot)
- Is Thalia necessary as a 1-of with little consistency, or a 4-of slot? I mean there's Incest, Pyroclasm, Pernicious that I can think of off the top of my head. I have only seen pernicious once. The only deck I can think of that actually uses Incest would be a grave pact deck which I haven't seen for some time. And Pyroclasm is kind of anti-red for a red deck to use at least lol.
I played against a deck that included Deathrite Shaman, Goyf, and Liliana of the Veil and healthy removal. I still don't have the cards I need, but two Goyf's and a DS couldn't get past KotR, Safekeeper, and Preserver(my deck became very thin of lands defensively). I don't think he had damnation because he had a somewhat similar gameplan to mine. Got Titania just in time when we were both topdecking. It was quite a game. I could have ended it earlier if he didn't pull a 2nd DS that I didn't have another Swords for.-Yes I removed a DS over 1 of 2 Goyf's before he played another a couple turns later.
I have been thinking about Scavenging Ooze vs. Deathrite Shaman. I mean the point is graveyard hate, DS is cheaper, faster.... and Ooze(multiple GY hate) tends to not grow with white removal to get past indestructible. Is it worth it to splash black and forget about indestructible? I generally don't have any issue generating mana of any color between BoP/Cobra. Deglamer is a fairly good anti indestructible card, because most indestructible are on artifacts, or the artifacts are graveyard abuse intensive?
I think Disruption is big for my deck. Like maybe a 10-of. Right now I'm using 4 Swords, and 3 Oblivions. I won't lose against aggro like ever(with ten), I can win against other similar decks because my protection/tricks grow my #1 beater, or #2 Titania tokens. I have had much more success with 7 rather than 4. It's not like my deck is super control where it likes ten turn nothing you can do games. My deck likes 5-7 turn games... As in put out a KotR that can withstand a removal spell, and then crush lands. It's why I added BoP which serves the same purpose as Noble Hierarch, albeit without Exalted-$$-luxury::: To accelerate a mid-game maverick. Yes there are creatures that can grow quicker than KotR, but you have to do so much more than fetchlands-cyclers-CR-SS which all serve a generally more consistent purpose with answers than Dredge or some other interaction that grows a creature. Moreover, not many etb with the same relative strength, as KotR) assuming I protect my graveyard... which i can't do with Ground Seal(Loam) or efficient green creatures.
Oblivion ring and beast within serve different functions. If you're trying to hit something at instant speed, beast within is about as good as it gets in green. Swords to plowshares is your best removal, you've already noted this. You could run path to exile, but that seems counterproductive. It really depends on what decks you are facing. If you see a lot of show and tell variants, I would much rather have oblivion ring or similar. Oblivion ring can be put in off of the show and tell, completely nerfing whatever they wanted to drop. Dismember is likewise an option.
As far as disruption goes, thalia would be a pretty solid card in the side at 3 to 4 of, keeping in mind what you would side out for her. Have a sideboard strategy ready dependent on the deck. For example, against combo deck, you might side out knight of the reliquary or lotus cobra, and side in thalia, whatever makes you faster+ disruption. I would be tempted to run deathrite shaman over another one drop mana accelerator because most decks play fetches or similar, allowing you to take advantage of their lands for your acceleration. Doubles as grave hate. I would still run one scavenging ooze either in the main or board, because sometimes spending 4 or 5 extra green goes along way towards evening the goyf war.
White has better removal than black, plain and simple. If you add black, it's for discard.
deck really does need Wasteland/Loam. I know Wasteland is super expensive, but its recurrable land destruction which would mean I wouldnt necessarily need Geddon's. I would just need to draw a Loam or Sylvan Library with the cyclers.
-I like Tajaru Preserver because he completely hoses black sacrifice. I can get him early enough with GSZ when facing black. I see plenty of Cruel Edict's and rebounding sacrifice. A Preserver with an SS out is you're not removing my knight in any way other than mass removal. I don't have a plethora of beaters where I really want to lose many creatures.
-If they aren't using fetches BoP is better because that faster knight. I'm trying to accelerate into midgame. I have a searchable Bog. A searchable Ooze. I mean yeah, it depends if they have lands in their graveyard. Guaranteed acceleration vs. graveyard-hate.
-The majority of the time, Geddon just ends the game. Either people hate playing against it and rightfully so, or a 10/10 Knight on turn 4, maybe even turn 3 with no mana is a lot to deal with. I can make Knight big without it. I could for example throw in a a few o-rings, and 4 duress's. Not to mention a Mortuary Mire which can be great since my deck kinda depends on KotR or Titania and Loam might put them there.
-My thinking was if I kill something to the graveyard I can make Ooze or DS better. But Swords already accomplishes that. Discard actually makes sense here. I could look at their hand and remove threats or prepare for them. Duress > O-Ring > Beast Within. I mean I get that its situational. I think I'd prefer a 3/3 creature than dealing with an game-changing AE reentering the battlefield. Anafenza, the Foremost is a rather delicious looking creature to GSZ, maybe sideboard material.
If I remove Geddon, I can add 7 cards
Like Raven's Crime + Loam. That seems like it could be particularly devastating. Like maybe a 2 of?
Running:
Khalni Garden: token
Sejirri Steppe: protection
Bojuka Bog: exile graveyard
Thawing Glaciers: land finder
Karakas
those fetches
Using Retreat Coralhelm/Kazandu
Abusing those lands with Sakura Tribe Scout + Trade Routes or Mana Breach or Sea Drake
Using Sylvan Safekeeper/Zuran Orb as land sac outlets
lots of white exiled removal
and of course gaddock teeg to protect against ***
might throw in that you have hexproof card for 2W
Creatures(17)
4 Sakura-Tribe Scout
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Floodbringer
2 Lotus Cobra
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Grazing Gladehart
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
1 Avenger of Zendikar
Planeswalkers(1):
1 Garruk Wildspeaker
Enchantments(5)
1 Trade Routes
1 Mana Breach
1 Sylvan Library
1 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Retreat to Kazandu
Spells(18)
4 Crop Rotation
3 Brainstorm
2 Life from the Loam
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Manabond
Artifacts(1)
1 Zuran Orb
Lands(23)
2 Treva's Ruins
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Khalni Garden
1 Bojuka Bog
5 Forest
3 Plains
3 Islands
Forests:Islands:Plains in mana cost = 30:8:10
65 cards in deck currently
I'm not sure 8 fetches is the right number. I'm already using 6 "special lands" that can all be abused with moonfolk type abilities(Floodbringer/Trade Routes/Mana Breach/Meloku/Treva's land=6)/Sakura Scout.
Sejiri Steppe: instant anti-removal/unblockable
Khalni Garden: good for chump blockers/ protection against sacrifice
Bojuka Bog: Anti-graveyard abuse
Tranquil Thicket: Cycling helps both kotr, draw, as well as life loam
Treva's Ruins: seems like a better Glaciers, so removed Glaciers?
honorable mentions:
Thawing Glaciers
Soaring Seacliff
Skyline Cascade
Secluded Steppe
Lonely Sandbar
Another idea could be to abuse Vitalize with Sakura-Tribe Scout and Glare of Subdual.
I know I'm supposed to commit, but i don't want to commit to the wrong strategy so I'm kinda brainstorming.
I should remove: Mana Breach, Floodbringer, Manabond, and????? or somethin else? I just want a deck thats good, flows well, and doesn't repeat too much, except for recursion lol.
Being able to refresh the cycling and etb effects through recursion and sakura tribe scout. One distinct advantage this strategy offers is Sylvan Tutor Zuran Orb and fetch lands become that much more powerful.
Or go the moonfolk route with extra land play cards like sakura-tribe scout and something else thats relatively cheap. I looked at the moonfolk cards and none of them overwhelmed me to be deck-worthy except meloku. Mana Breach seems potentially interesting, like game changing. Combining Aura Shards and Glare of Subdual with Khalni Garden and Meloku the Clouded Mirror smells like a powerful way to get around Mana Breach.
Either way I'm really liking Retreat to Coralhelm. It's infinite with the main idea of the deck: abusing Sakura-Tribe Scout and Knight of the Reliquary with land effects. Skyline Cascade can effectively give me a nearly impenetrable combat damage defense very early.
I also think Grazing Gladehart with Retreat to Kazandu offers a solid way to prolong a game.
Do you think cycling LftL or Moonfolk is a better idea?
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Creatures(15)
4 Sakura-Tribe Scout
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
2 Lotus Cobra
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Grazing Gladehart
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Prophet of Kruphix
1 Meloku the Clouded Mirror
Enchantments(9)
2 Trade Routes
2 Sylvan Library
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
1 Retreat to Kazandu
1 Aura Shards
1 Glare of Subdual
Spells(13)
4 Crop Rotation
2 Life from the Loam
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Green Sun's Zenith
Artifacts(1)
1 Zuran Orb
Lands(23)
4 Treva's Ruins
2 Windswept Heath
2 Flooded Strand
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Khalni Garden
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Skyline Cascade
5 Forest
2 Plains
2 Islands
Forests:Islands:Plains in mana cost = 27:6:9
Not sure if land mix is right or even close. I'm okay with 61 cards?
Can Trade Routes effectively replace the cycling lands?
pros:
-every land has cycling.
-uncounterable land effects without destroying Trade Routes
-no stipulation on type of mana spent to do it.
cons:
-susceptible to enchantment removal
Meloku is such a baller card for this deck. It doesn't appear to be that great. But it's devastating with Skyline Cascade and the Scout. It prevents 2 enemy creatures(most of them at least) from doing damage for next to nothing. It can actually prevent up to 4 creatures from doing much with that combo if things are done right. The only thing that can stop it, in particular, is protection from blue, or a combination of creature inate abilities like hexproof, shroud, trample, double strike.
I like Prophet more than Seedborn because at that point in the game I can almost certainly protect against a lightning bolt, vs. flashing in creatures.
I don't have Teeg, Aura Shards, LftL, or the fetches. But it's been fun to play. Usually I fall behind, gain control... ... ... ... ... and then finally fall behind again. It's like you say, not enough draw to get the answers/finishers when I need them.
I don't even have issues with running melokus, but if you are going to, it might be better to add in more lotus cobras. Reasoning? Lotus cobrax2+ meloku+patron of the moon=infinite illusion tokens. Even one cobra out makes for a metric crap ton of tokens, or you can just have the patron of the moon out and pay 3 mana for 2 tokens, 2 landfall triggers, and no setback because you returned them.
But with that said, you can't search for either patron of the moon or meloku off of green sun's zenith, and if you're going to run that card, you want 4 to begin with. It will be the single greatest piece of consistency in your deck. With it, you've got 7 copies of any green creature (last time I checked, every creature you desperately wanted to see was green). Without it, only 4 at most.
Prophet of kruphix is kind of "win more." You need something that allows you to take control of the game earlier, and he isn't it. Courser of kruphix+ sylvan library is a pretty solid synergy and they both are good on their own. I would run courser over grazing gladeheart, honestly.
Glare of subdual is awesome in token decks, which you aren't. Remove it. Same with Aura shards. It's good in some decks, but you only have 15 creatures and two that may produce tokens. bleh! If you're that far along that you can afford to cast these creatures, then you already have control of the game.
Yuck..I guess I'm all over the place. I don't think blue is going to help you much. If it is, then you definitely want 4 brainstorm and possibly the retreat to coralhelm combo with knight of the reliquary (put him back to 4, would ya?) and some counters in the side. Meloku, the clouded mirror and trade routes won't help much, unfortunately. You already have better control conditions, blue doesn't offer removal, though red or black does. If you want board control, then a very few select lands+ knight of the reliquary does offer it at instant speed. If you're worried about creature swarms, then you might consider a wrath of god effect in the sideboard. You're already in white, so again, that leaves blue out. If you insist on keeping blue and oblivion ring, then -oblivion ring, + detention sphere. It's slightly better.
If it were me, the deck you have would look something like this:
4 knight of the reliquary
4 lotus cobra
4 sakura-tribe scout
4 courser of kruphix
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Sylvan safekeeper
2 Sylvan Library
4 Green Sun's zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Life from the loam
4 Crop rotation
1 Zuran orb (most likely weakest spot...would replace with Green Sun's zenith target such as qasali pridemage for md removal)
1 maze of ith
1 bojuka bog
1 sejiri steppe
8 fetches
6 cycling lands
4 Forest
2 Plains
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
1 cobra
1 courser
1 gaddock
3 zenith's
3 LftL
all the fetches
Thanks for your great help. I look forward to playing this deck.
seems like a bomb-ass card for this deck:
-KotR: Combat Tricks +1
-Can find Steppe/Bog/Ith/Cycling or fetches, its really hard to find target "non-basic" land
Loam doesn't mind the extra lands in the graveyard either.
I mean I get it: Crop Rotation is a cheaper card, but I'm not necessarily looking to put cycling lands in play. Of course its good with Sylvan Safekeeper/Loam. Do you think this card is a worth addition?
Question 2:
If Loam is my drawing engine with the cycle lands. Do I still need Sylvan/Courser if I have 4 tutors as well? If I'm gonna use Loam it would be a travesty not to use Eternal Witness in case I toss away something I want. Courser will be taking up 4 slots and this deck will excel at thinning out my library of lands. I mean there will be 16 cards that find lands (CR,KotR,fetches)
I already have 2 courser/2 sylvan and when I've playtested them together, yeah its more or less +1 card advantage every turn.
More over, Lotus Cobra + KotR + Armageddon is gg?
There is a flaw with this deck: If I don't have a crop rotation or Sejirri Steppe in hand. I can't attack with KotR AND protect him. Is this something I should worry much about, because its a problem until I get my tutors and teeg. I can't wait to get Life from the Loams, so I can change that Zuran Orb into a Sylvan Safekeeper.
CAL
Assault-loam
astral slide
All of them use variants of the engine described and should give you an idea of what you can do with it.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Here's the "core" of it:
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Knight of the Reliquary
Spells(19)
4 Crop Rotation
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Life from the Loam
4 Ravages of War
4 Green Sun's Zenith
8 fetches
5 cyclers
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
7 basics
I'm thinking the rest of it will be answers attached to a creature. Basically use GSZ to search for 1-of answers. I like that idea of yours.
Practical auto-includes:
Sylvan Safekeeper
Titania, Protector of Argoth
Eternal Witness
Qasali Pridemage
Probably need to focus on anti-blue more than anything. So I picked these out. I don't have many ways of prolonging if my opponent is heavy weenie agression.
Gaea's Herald
Spellbane Centaur
Tajuru Preserver
Sigarda, Host of Herons
Brown Ouphe: next best answer to A LOT of artifacts without a 4-of?
Of course they are all green
Honorable Mentions?
Kitchen Finks: great aggro stopper
Ouphe Vandals: Brown is cheaper and better imo
Rust Scarab: probably not worth it since they won't block him if there's some sort of menacing thing on the field
Scarwood Bandits: Green control on artifacts? hahahaha
Sakura-Tribe Elder: Good for post Armageddon(too situational?)
Search for Tomorrow: Good pre-Armageddon(ts?)
Rooting Kavu: different kind of eternal witness
Groundskeeper: because I'll typically have a lot of my lands in my graveyard after Armageddon, won't draw very many
Centaur Vinecrasher: seems like a better Terravore to me
Strangleroot Geist: this card is probably pretty good as a 4 of to increase the aggression while maintaining position against mass removal, but mass removal isn't likely to happen after a 'geddon
Sylvan Hierophant: kind of any interesting card, but E-Wit is just better
Temur Sabertooth: another interesting anti-mass removal on a small scale. I'm actually surprised someone hasn't broken this card with etb effects. Like a dredge deck with a bunch E-Wit's.
Thornling: I'd rather see vigilance than haste here, but it could be a great beater
Thresher Beast: kind of good, but probably better in a more aggressive and less combo deck
Thrun, the Last Troll: doesn't do anything against mass removal, its just a good card
Viridian Emissary: Would like this more if the land didn't enter tapped...
Second Sunrise: to play this maybe
Wall of Roots: not a bad dual function card
Witchstalker: against blue black control decks... hahahaha
Dauntless Escort: its okay
Dryad Militant: if I wasn't using Loam as my draw engine: auto-include, probably outclassed in function by crop rotating a bojuka bog
Mistcutter Hydra: don't think I need more blue hate than the 3 cards I mentioned already
Blue decks typically need a fair bit of mana to function, at least control variants. Armageddon will surely give them the middle finger. Of course, that doesn't include tempo varieties as they can function just fine off of one or two lands. However, you're not really playing a deck that functions all that well off of an armageddon. It's similar to a very old deck concept called ernham geddon. If you really want to give them the middle finger, then stick it to them where it hurts...the cantrips. You play very few cmc 1 things, but you can surely play chalice of the void at 1.
For searchable things in green, I highly recommend scavenging ooze and deathrite shaman. Both do an excellent job of hosing graveyards and other things besides. You're not playing tarmogoyfs and really only care about lands in graveyard, so why not give them the middle finger, too! If you want blue hate, then most of these cards I don't like. But I do like vexing shusher. I think there are better things to do, but he does exactly what he says he is going to do, and that's turn off counter spells.
If you want an additional three mana beater, I would really consider only a terravore or two. If you do that, though, then you really want to play up your early mana sources. Maybe some sol lands like ancient tomb or city of traitors, though they are only good for colorless and are really obnoxious when you're trying to cast something with multiple colors in the casting cost.
You're really starting to venture into the fields of trinity green (there is a thread further down the page you should look at) or stompy (aggro-stax). I don't know what you play against, but knowing some meta knowledge will be helpful.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Master of the Wild Hunt: ooo, ooo more removal
there was a 4/4 beast +4 life anti-discard for 4 mana that looked nice for anti-black anti-aggro
Thragtusk and Kitchen Finks also both seems like good additions to prolong a game
the board sweepers looked interesting, particularly because this deck can actually get overpowered by weenies. Momentarily considered adding black but I don't think i've ever made a 3 color deck, and if I did I would probably need a LOT of lands considering my draw engine is based off lands.
the sol lands: this is interesting, has a good use with GSZ and the more expensive parts of the deck. Wouldn't mind sac'ing it obviously with a Cobra out.
What I took from the column, at least the parts I could follow:
-Need to prolong an aggro game til my aggro-combo game can take over.
-Blue is popular in every meta
I get that Smokestack and Tanglewire are popular right now. I am not enthused to use those artifacts.
I have roughly 9 open slots to beat the meta.
-I beat a Boros pyromancer/disk deck. Boros Charm gave me a headache with disc, but I eventually outlasted him in game two after a fast game 1. The blue version with Jace and that 3/2 flyer dude seems like it would be tougher.
The only thing that's bad about Geddon is that my deck is really good at thinning itself of lands. So even when I blast geddin on turn 4 or 5 I'll end up having AT LEAST a third of my lands in my graveyard.
With that said, Lotus Cobra loves the Geddon mana advantage. And the Cobra will really like every fetch turning into a dark ritual.
I will update my deck because it really only has like 5 slots or so right now.
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Scout
1 Tajuru Preserver
4 Obstinate Baloth
Spells(18)
4 Crop Rotation
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Life from the Loam
3 Ravages of War
4 Green Sun's Zenith
8 fetches
5 cyclers
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
7 basics
1 Spellbane Centaur
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Thragtusk
1 Master of the Wild Hunt
1 Song of the Dryads
1 Purify
1 Brown Ouphe
So basically Boseiju and Loam engine is enough to beat blue? Because I could in essence Boseiju a GSZ for any creature? But then shouldn't I at least sideboard a Spellbane Centaur so Jace can't unsummon my creatures? Possibly sideboard Boseiju/Spellbane Centaur/man-land. It's going to be a long game without them, that you're right, I'd probably win with Loam.
I kind of got away from so much protection for Cobra Knight. There just isn't any green creature that gives my creatures hexproof at a cheap cost.
I mean there's
Ranger's Guile: inefficient luck-based
Ascetism: can't search for it
Archetype: hella expensive
Spellskite: not green
Sylvan Scrying is not an instant if I went back to the Sakura-Tribe dude.
I mean there's so many schinanigans that the Sakura Tribe dude can pull off. I don't think I need Scryb Ranger, although that's a very good card.
Should I add Sakura-Tribe Scout and use Loam/SS to have Sejiri Steppe up my sleeve? I probably wouldn't need him until after I pull the Crop Rotate trick anyway. This seems to be the most efficient way to recur the protection that is searchable with GSZ. I mean i could just search for SS, but that won't stop deathtouch. I know SS/Sakura-Steppe seems redundant, I just don't wanna turn my opponents kill spells into LD too often.
Could add BoP's and just not use any plains? Possibly delve into black for removal. I like Swords particularly because it removes certain indestructible things.
If Loam beats blue, and I have a healthy amount of anti-black, then all I really need is tanks with lifegain? Which makes me kind of like Obstinate Baloth more than Kitchen Finks 2:2? 4:0? 0:4?
I can't protect against artifacts though, so artifact decks tend to be tough matchups(particular disc/deathcoil... haven't seen tanglestax, it would probably kick my ass). Considering I'm not using artifacts/enchantments sideboard: 1x Brown Ouphe and 4x Purify
KotR with Titania seems like land sweeps and A/E sweeps look good to me.
Is Oblivion Ring or Song of the Dryads better for this deck? Should I use them?
Should I use Eternal Witness because this isn't a Dredge deck. E-Wit's good in other areas too but I would hate to put a wincon in the Grave with Loam.
Courser just doesn't make that much sense if my library has 8 lands in 40 cards left. Sylvan Library is good regardless, but I just don't think its better than Loam-cycles, not even close.
Personally, I would still run both sylvan library and loam, but maybe only two of each. You only want to see one life from the loam per game. Sylvan library is good on turn two, but life from the loam is not. It also doesn't cost mana, whereas life and cycling does. Also, if you're using a cycling land engine, blowing up your manabase is rather bad, even if you can get it back.
Why do you need hexproof? You're not targeting your own stuff, so what you have is sylvan safekeeper, which grants shroud. Shroud is harder to deal with because there are very few ways to remove it. In fact, the only way I know to do so is arcane lighthouse, a commander land that wouldn't see play except in one very weird and desperate legacy meta. It also has the rather nasty advantage of being very nastily synergistic with titania.
Artifacts are an issue? In particular, there are MANY better ways to blow them ALL up in green alone. Off the top of my head::
For artifacts and enchantments you have (in addition to purify, which you noted):
If it's just one or two in particular each time (counterbalance/sensei's divining top, ensnaring bridge, batterskull, etc. )
then you have a myriad of ways to do it, but in particular, two will always stand out there.
- Krosan grip
- nature's claim
.If you need lifegain (which you had incremental lifegain with the courser and a large butt, two reasons I very much like him), then kitchen finks comes down one turn sooner and is harder to remove, but he doesn't give you life quite as fast. Speed is everything vs. burn decks which is where you need that lifegain.
Have you acquired wastelands or are they too pricey for you? If you're going with a loam engine, that is one of the very single best cards you could add.
If you see a lot of discard/liliana of the veil AND for some reason, are still worried about blue, then the second beater I would add is...loxodon smiter. It's only a 4/4, but it can't be countered, only costs 3, and plops straight onto the battlefield if your opponent makes you discard it. If you're worried only about jace bouncing, then there are better things to add. Thrun, the last troll, being among the very best. Now he gives a bit fat middle finger to both blue and black.
The other option to worry about jace bouncing is just to attack him with more than one creature or prevent him from hitting with a gaddock teeg. That's usually called going wide, but if you over extend, you can walk right into a wrath and that's bad.
If you do keep playing this list loam style, I think you're going to find eventually that exploration is still arguably the most powerful addition you could add in. I know it's not cheap, but it will help more than about anything else. Other than that, this deck is a bit of a mishmash between stompy/stax, maverick (hate bears), astral slide/cal (loam engine), etc. that's not bad, but you've got to figure out what works best for you!
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
My colors have always been green blue and/or black but I'm yet to construct all 3. Reasoning: Red and White tend to be more aggro, and I don't like putting all my eggs in that basket... and then topdecking. I love love love card advantage so the mass A/E removal appeals to me.
I haven't actually had much of an issue with Jace, unless they use return on the first turn. Sejirri/Swords typically lets me at the very least get a cobra through to him.
Generally speaking, Ravages of War and Teeg both have the same effect on mass removal.
Ideally I'm trying to get to the spot where I have Cobra Knight out and I take out all the lands. And then its a race between me getting a really big KotR through 2-3 times vs. them removing him. I had a Sylvan Library out too in one game. Yea, he conceded. Suffice to say, I like Maverick.
I like mid-range. I like card draw. I much prefer control to aggro. I don't like control so much as to make a counterspell deck. Those are lame.
I at one time had an EarthPact deck. I destroyed this deck because it used SquirrelCraft as its main token generator, and I got sick of telling people I'm not gonna attack you with these tokens, ever. EarthcraftGrave Pact Sadistic Hypnotist Skullclamp Infest kind of stuff.
Also had a Forbidden Sphinx deck. Prophet of Kruphix Veilstone Amulet Consecrated Sphinx Forbid kind of stuff. Inundate Eternal Witness was a headache for just about any creature based deck.
That was me channeling the inner-edh-johnny
I faced a Pox deck once. It obliterated me. Probably why I'm trying to hate on black so much. I just couldn't get past Pox/Hymn/aggro weenies.
I still gotta buy 3 GSZ, 1 Cobra(maybe), fetchlands, Loams. Wastelands is too much. I usually just buy booster packs and hope I land a Jace, Vryn's Prodigy like I did once lol.
Like right now I'm trying to get by with Tilling Treefolk Grasslands. Cheap knock-offs that just aren't as good.
Yea its like an Ernham deck. But KotR is like Ernham on steroids.
Loam is going to be really important. Like really important. That and the GSZ's are the first thing I'm buying. What can I say I like card draw, so the prospect of having a Loam engine draw WITH GSZ finding answers with a Boseiju. Yeah I'm gonna destroy Blue decks.
My deck is not that strong over the first 2 turns. There's that window where I can get behind.
Then there's a window where I just won't draw any lands because maybe half my lands are in the graveyard on turn 6. I mean yeah Crucible of Worlds. But, meh that's going infinite.
Like I'm teetering between speeding myself up, anti-aggro with tank/life, anti A/E... And then I mention Sylvan Library... card draw... shazam!!!! lol
You could theoretically back off a bit on fetches and run a few manlands instead. They are slower, but get around mass removal like terminus barring shenanigans and are another aggro route that works with your loam engine.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Cascade is good, no? Just not so many besides BBE. Some lands have hideaway. So my question is: if this hideaway land casts a spell, can it still be countered? Whether it resolves or not, can I do it again next turn?
Mishra's Factory/Mutavault seems efficient
Treetop Village always liked this card, more than the 2/2's, extra 1 mana for shock-proof/trample
Nantuko Monastery a lot of lands go into my graveyard + dredge. Could be useful.
Raging Ravine red splash but seems interesting
Safe Haven this could actually be a gem. Like if I can't stop losing a Cobra or Knight or something, or I know a *** is coming. I could sac the land to avoid those sorceries and then Geddon?
Glacial Chasm: bye bye Naya aggro issues lol, would probably need more lifegain though.
Stirring Wildwood makes probably the most sense since I'm susceptible to flying for now. Another fat butt.
All in all I'm most intrigued by Treetop, Haven, Chasm, and Wildwood. I don't think I missed any that are relevant. And maybe those Hideaway cards, which would practically force me to play Sylvan Library(which I don't mind). It's obviously a powerful card, moreso with shuffling.
Maybe 6 fetches instead of 8? I've kind of moved away from landfall a bit. Might even get away with 4 and a couple grasslands lol.
I researched a GW maverick deck a little. I was pleased to learn that this deck looks similar albeit some tweaks. I usually play on Magic Online in the Just for Fun section. Both of my last matches were against artifacts. I should have won them both instead of just one match. Prowess also seems to be popular. I saw a Counterbalance and Pox before. Both were horrid to play against in my current Grasslands, Sylvan Tutor, Tilling, BoP, O-Ring form. Though Boseiju will force my more important spells through: Like Lotus Cobra, Loam, KotR, GSZ, Geddon: which is basically the deck.
Teeg is good. He just takes away GSZ sometimes, and Geddon. That's the only thing I don't like. Those are critical control cards.
Love for the man-lands. They're just great against creature-less board-sweeping decks. Cause if KotR doesn't overpower a creature-based deck. Titania will.
4 Birds of Paradise
3 Lotus Cobra
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Eternal Witness
1 Qasali Pridemage
Spells(19)
4 Crop Rotation
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Life from the Loam
4 Ravages of War
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Sylvan Library
Lands(24)
6 fetches
6 cyclers
1 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Stirring Wildwood
7 basics (6/1)
1 Tajuru Preserver
1 Spellbane Centaur
3 Loxodon Smiter
1 Arashi, the Sky Asunder
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Nature's Claim
2 Creeping Corrosion
1 Arcane Lighthouse
I actually changed out Lotus Cobra for Birds of Paradise.
-I'm not playing multiple lands a turn.
-Can play KotR on turn 2, and Ravages on turn 3... which could actually make KotR bigger than you might anticipate with cycling/fetches.
I do lose value on a 2/1 body attacking body, but I can chump flyers.
I also lose fetchlands making extra mana, and etb tapped lands making mana
I've been playing with both recently.
Played against a Leyline of the Void/Deathrite Shaman. It was brutal.
Something like this?
-allows me to protect a Lotus Cobra turn 2 drop with crop rotation trick
-allows Knight to come out on turn 2 if I choose
-allows Knight and Sylvan Safekeeper to be played on turn 3 simultaneously.
-allows mana production past a Geddin
-would much rather lose BoP than either Cobra Knight towards a sacrifice.
The only thing that can stop this consistently is mass creature removal, like you said. I basically have to Geddin before they ***, that's the current gameplan. You have a valid point with Teeg. People won't *** a BoP + Cobra, so I could play the Knight with just those 2 out and any non-tap land, after a Geddin. With that said I haven't seen a pure miracle deck yet.
I've been playing with Sylvan Library in my test deck, and its too good even without fetches(CR/Grasslands/KotR). It will be disgusting when I can shuffle at instant speed.
I need answers to graveyard hate and there's not many. Deathrite Shaman has been a much bigger pain than any other particular card(so I don't suppose I need to use white stuff that gives me hexproof, Thank God). White gets protection and hexproof. Why doesn't green have hexproof for anything besides creatures.
I think most people prefer the targeted removal(DS) to something like Tormod's Crypt anyway. With that said, green has some okay "fight cards". Path to Exile isn't bad either, especially if I'm about to Geddin anyway... Actually, Path to Exile could put a hurtin on a counterbalance deck, if it has a creature out anyway... And it isn't countered from hand(Nobody shuffles opponents library at instant speed)... On a side not, "exile" even existing is a joke, imo.
I did make a Whirlpool Crawler deck that was UR(Think Whirlpool Warrior Psychosis Crawler. But that was just a funny/fun deck to play.
Came across Dromoka's Command, it seems like it could be somewhat efficient. Not that I really struggle with Red aggro decks. KotR comes out and they're down to their burn cards. I beat a gobbo deck 2-0, though the 2nd game left me with 1 life.
PS: I do like the Shaman, just not playing against him.
Mentioned before: but I think I'd have to include a Glacial Chasm. No? I'm pretty sure the life payment goes 2-4-6-8-etc.? This could be the storm answer?
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
Spells(20)
4 Crop Rotation
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Ravages of War
3 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tranquil Thicket
2 Secluded Steppe
2 Sejiri Steppe
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Stirring Wildwood
6 Forest
2 Plains
1 Tajuru Preserver
4 Beast Within
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Surgical Extraction
1 Arashi, the Sky Asunder
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Teeg + 3/4 Geddin's generally stuffs *** and MOST mass removal. 3 is a good number? With/without Wasteland? (60 is a lot)
- Is Thalia necessary as a 1-of with little consistency, or a 4-of slot? I mean there's Incest, Pyroclasm, Pernicious that I can think of off the top of my head. I have only seen pernicious once. The only deck I can think of that actually uses Incest would be a grave pact deck which I haven't seen for some time. And Pyroclasm is kind of anti-red for a red deck to use at least lol.
I played against a deck that included Deathrite Shaman, Goyf, and Liliana of the Veil and healthy removal. I still don't have the cards I need, but two Goyf's and a DS couldn't get past KotR, Safekeeper, and Preserver(my deck became very thin of lands defensively). I don't think he had damnation because he had a somewhat similar gameplan to mine. Got Titania just in time when we were both topdecking. It was quite a game. I could have ended it earlier if he didn't pull a 2nd DS that I didn't have another Swords for.-Yes I removed a DS over 1 of 2 Goyf's before he played another a couple turns later.
I have been thinking about Scavenging Ooze vs. Deathrite Shaman. I mean the point is graveyard hate, DS is cheaper, faster.... and Ooze(multiple GY hate) tends to not grow with white removal to get past indestructible. Is it worth it to splash black and forget about indestructible? I generally don't have any issue generating mana of any color between BoP/Cobra. Deglamer is a fairly good anti indestructible card, because most indestructible are on artifacts, or the artifacts are graveyard abuse intensive?
I think Disruption is big for my deck. Like maybe a 10-of. Right now I'm using 4 Swords, and 3 Oblivions. I won't lose against aggro like ever(with ten), I can win against other similar decks because my protection/tricks grow my #1 beater, or #2 Titania tokens. I have had much more success with 7 rather than 4. It's not like my deck is super control where it likes ten turn nothing you can do games. My deck likes 5-7 turn games... As in put out a KotR that can withstand a removal spell, and then crush lands. It's why I added BoP which serves the same purpose as Noble Hierarch, albeit without Exalted-$$-luxury::: To accelerate a mid-game maverick. Yes there are creatures that can grow quicker than KotR, but you have to do so much more than fetchlands-cyclers-CR-SS which all serve a generally more consistent purpose with answers than Dredge or some other interaction that grows a creature. Moreover, not many etb with the same relative strength, as KotR) assuming I protect my graveyard... which i can't do with Ground Seal(Loam) or efficient green creatures.
Issues in summary:
-more removal?(black vs. white): DS vs. Ooze? or Beast Within better than O-Ring?
-protect my graveyard in non-green creature ways? Bitter Ordeal? Gilded Light? Praetor's Grasp Surgical Extraction Extirpate
As far as disruption goes, thalia would be a pretty solid card in the side at 3 to 4 of, keeping in mind what you would side out for her. Have a sideboard strategy ready dependent on the deck. For example, against combo deck, you might side out knight of the reliquary or lotus cobra, and side in thalia, whatever makes you faster+ disruption. I would be tempted to run deathrite shaman over another one drop mana accelerator because most decks play fetches or similar, allowing you to take advantage of their lands for your acceleration. Doubles as grave hate. I would still run one scavenging ooze either in the main or board, because sometimes spending 4 or 5 extra green goes along way towards evening the goyf war.
White has better removal than black, plain and simple. If you add black, it's for discard.
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Eternal Witness
Spells(20)
4 Crop Rotation
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Ravages of War
3 Life from the Loam
2 Sylvan Library
4 Windswept Heath
4 Tranquil Thicket
2 Secluded Steppe
2 Sejiri Steppe
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Stirring Wildwood
6 Forest
2 Plains
1 Tajuru Preserver
4 Beast Within
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Arashi, the Sky Asunder
-I like Tajaru Preserver because he completely hoses black sacrifice. I can get him early enough with GSZ when facing black. I see plenty of Cruel Edict's and rebounding sacrifice. A Preserver with an SS out is you're not removing my knight in any way other than mass removal. I don't have a plethora of beaters where I really want to lose many creatures.
-If they aren't using fetches BoP is better because that faster knight. I'm trying to accelerate into midgame. I have a searchable Bog. A searchable Ooze. I mean yeah, it depends if they have lands in their graveyard. Guaranteed acceleration vs. graveyard-hate.
-The majority of the time, Geddon just ends the game. Either people hate playing against it and rightfully so, or a 10/10 Knight on turn 4, maybe even turn 3 with no mana is a lot to deal with. I can make Knight big without it. I could for example throw in a a few o-rings, and 4 duress's. Not to mention a Mortuary Mire which can be great since my deck kinda depends on KotR or Titania and Loam might put them there.
-My thinking was if I kill something to the graveyard I can make Ooze or DS better. But Swords already accomplishes that. Discard actually makes sense here. I could look at their hand and remove threats or prepare for them. Duress > O-Ring > Beast Within. I mean I get that its situational. I think I'd prefer a 3/3 creature than dealing with an game-changing AE reentering the battlefield.
Anafenza, the Foremost is a rather delicious looking creature to GSZ, maybe sideboard material.
If I remove Geddon, I can add 7 cards
Like Raven's Crime + Loam. That seems like it could be particularly devastating. Like maybe a 2 of?