I'm not sure if there is anything on this yet, but I've heard a lot of rumors about a potential Legacy version of the Modern Lantern Control Deck. This is emphasized by the recent $80 price spike in Field of Dreams. That kind of price spike has me really intrigued. Are there actually any deck lists for this online yet? Has anyone been playing it on MTGO? Hope this is posted in the right place and that I get get some answers to my speculation.
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Moved from Legacy Main.
Saw the card spike and facepalmed. The issue with this idea in legacy is the number of cantrips and stuff in the format as well as answers to ensnaring bridge from spell pierce to FoW to abrupt decay. Another issue with field of dreams just as a card is that it's blue/REB and pyroblast kill it. I have not seen a list yet anywhere.
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"Yawgmoth," Freyalise whispered as she set the bomb, "now you will pay for your treachery."
Lantern is a terrible idea. Modern players be Moderning.
The deck basically revolves around durdling for several turns, relying on Ensnaring Bridge beating the format, durdling to screw over draws if opponent has bad cantrips, and then just exiling the few things that can beat Bridge or beat you through it.
This works in Modern and fails in Legacy for several reasons:
1) Assembling lock involves durdling turns 1-3. Modern usually can't win in 1-3 so point is moot. Many Legacy decks can. Heck, even Affinity and Goblins can.
You mean it's as fast as ANT? ANT wins by turn 3 with protection. When lantern establishes the lock it also has generally won. So your statement means the opposite of what you wanted to say.
No, not even close. ANT wins by turn 3. This waits until turn three to hopefully have a lock in place. Then it takes forever to actually win a game, leaving the opponent a whole lot of time to pull out some kind of answer. Also, answers are far more easy to come by in Legacy than in Modern.
I would bet large amounts of cash-money that Stasis becomes a real Legacy deck before Lantern does.
Yeah, Stasis might well be a thing within a month... I think if it's not a thing by then, it never will be.
Lantern will never really work in Legacy, and I think the reason is mostly #2 above. Modern, as a format, has been strictly limited in terms of cantrips and card selection. In Legacy, these beasts are uncaged and bearing ferocious teeth. In Modern, how hard is it to shut down a deck using Serum Visions by means of Lantern and friends? Clearly plausible, right? But against the cantrip cartel, this is bringing a knife to a gun fight. Then, we have the tutors.
I'd love to have a new deck in Legacy expanding the strategic diversity of the format, but I think this pretty obviously isn't going to be one of them. I predict the following. Some folks take this Lantern idea to a Legacy event, win a few matches on surprise value, but on the whole get crushed because a lot of decks don't rely on their draw step very much at all. Remember how annoying it was to pilot Maverick and shuffle your deck 1-3 times each turn, round after round, for a whole day?
lol... these are the same kind of arguments I had to endure while developing Lantern in modern. Deemed a joke that would never make it at first, 3 years later its all the rage in modern.
Sure legacy is harder to tame, but it also offers Lantern new tools to work with. IMO, its not a matter if it could work or not, its a matter of how long does it take to develop a list that works in legacy.
You mean it's as fast as ANT? ANT wins by turn 3 with protection. When lantern establishes the lock it also has generally won. So your statement means the opposite of what you wanted to say.
You've got the argument reversed. This is a goldfish from turn 1-3. Tons of Legacy decks can beat a goldfish in turns 1-3. Modern decks can't, so it's less of an issue. It's ok for Modern decks to be uninteractive in the early turns. Pure aggro and midrange decks are a thing in Modern. Not so in Legacy. Legacy decks need to either be combo or interact in the early turns to be viable.
When Lantern establishes the lock in Modern it has generally won. This is not true in Legacy because of my points 2 and on (especially point 3 - all the cantrips and tutors directly interact with the lock), so placing the "soft lock" by turn 3 and winning on turn 3 are VERY different things.
2. Delver, sneak and show and creature decks likely comprise 50% of decks to beat. That's not nothing.
I don't know why decks that run Force of Will and Daze/Spell Pierce are your ideas of decks that can't beat Ensnaring Bridge. When that is one of the few cards they need to stop (they can cantrip through Lantern+mill all day), it's probably getting countered.
3. DTT is banned. Does miracles manage to counter all these spells in the early game? I don't believe so, yet it's a strong deck. MUD also managed to be tier 2 with a (soft) prison strategy.
Miracles and MUD/Chalice Stompy soft locks involve interacting with the stack, stopping spells from resolving. This soft lock involves interacting with the library, preventing cards from being drawn in theory (unless opponent can also interact with the library), but does nothing with the stack, still letting all spells through. The stack is a lot more important in Legacy than in Modern, and not controlling the stack is an issue. In Modern it's close enough because players have so few ways to interact with their own library that you can reasonably deny them cards. In Legacy, they can still find what they need while the "lock" is active.
You're conflating all soft lock decks as though they were all the same. They're not. The underlying mechanics matter. This is why Ankh of Mishra.dec and Stasis.dec aren't even a think, but CounterTop is. "But opponent can't play lands!" "But opponent can't untap lands!". Yeah, but those cards don't do anything with the stack, and opponent can still resolve spells that either beat the lock or just kill you.
lol... these are the same kind of arguments I had to endure while developing Lantern in modern. Deemed a joke that would never make it at first, 3 years later its all the rage in modern.
Chest beating about it's mild incursion into modern isn't any different than the other myriad decks in modern that attempted to cross the legacy bridge; and then died a horrible death.
Eggs and Jetski Ascendancy being the ones I remember.
The deck is just a JtMS with protection. Why play 30 bad cards to emulate a 3-of Good card?
They're different formats and this idea took 6 years to work (I've found a thread from 2009 trying it out) and a boatload of bannings.
6 years of work to make a deck that sort-of works in a slower format.
In legacy it is insta-gibbed terribly by D&T (Flickerwisp, Revoker), Dredge, Reanimator, Storm, Burn, and that's just off the top of my head. You have 16 cards to replace just off the bat to get it near competitive (Ponder Brainstorm FOW Daze/Spierce) and once you do that you have a delver deck that's replaced creatures and further control with 1-mana mill cards, ensnaring bridges, and lanterns.
You'll also have to add Lands probably because the number of decks running Stifle, Wasteland, Thalia, Port, etc.. outstrip the modern land destruction by (without exaggerating) several hundred percent. For instance, getting Loam-locked T2 by fair decks isn't a thing in Modern; and can be in legacy. KotR fetching Wastelands isn't a thing. T1 Chalice isn't a thing.
I will join the chorus of people saying I'd put actual money on this that this will not see a single Top 8 at an SCG over the next 3 years. Even in a room where only 12 people are playing non-Lantern decks; if they meta-gamed at all they'd probably get there. (12 seems statistically good enough to not have them kill eachother)
lol... these are the same kind of arguments I had to endure while developing Lantern in modern. Deemed a joke that would never make it at first, 3 years later its all the rage in modern.
Chest beating about it's mild incursion into modern isn't any different than the other myriad decks in modern that attempted to cross the legacy bridge; and then died a horrible death.
Eggs and Jetski Ascendancy being the ones I remember.
The deck is just a JtMS with protection. Why play 30 bad cards to emulate a 3-of Good card?
They're different formats and this idea took 6 years to work (I've found a thread from 2009 trying it out) and a boatload of bannings.
6 years of work to make a deck that sort-of works in a slower format.
In legacy it is insta-gibbed terribly by D&T (Flickerwisp, Revoker), Dredge, Reanimator, Storm, Burn, and that's just off the top of my head. You have 16 cards to replace just off the bat to get it near competitive (Ponder Brainstorm FOW Daze/Spierce) and once you do that you have a delver deck that's replaced creatures and further control with 1-mana mill cards, ensnaring bridges, and lanterns.
You'll also have to add Lands probably because the number of decks running Stifle, Wasteland, Thalia, Port, etc.. outstrip the modern land destruction by (without exaggerating) several hundred percent. For instance, getting Loam-locked T2 by fair decks isn't a thing in Modern; and can be in legacy. KotR fetching Wastelands isn't a thing. T1 Chalice isn't a thing.
I will join the chorus of people saying I'd put actual money on this that this will not see a single Top 8 at an SCG over the next 3 years. Even in a room where only 12 people are playing non-Lantern decks; if they meta-gamed at all they'd probably get there. (12 seems statistically good enough to not have them kill eachother)
Because combined, those 30 bad cards make one solid deck with a favorable matchup against everything in the format except burn and some rouge decks?
I'm not chest beating... I'm just saying, people's theories about how it won't make it in legacy are the same theories I heard in modern while developing it.
"Abrupt Decay exists"
"You'll be dead to combo/aggro before you assemble the combo"
"midrange has the tools to break your locks"
"X deck can do this and that"
"These decks play X or Y card"
"It dies to affinity hate"
And a whole list of other comments that didn't add up at the end of the day. What I'm trying to say is that theories are just theories, people will work on this regardless of all the naysayers and they will try to prove them wrong just like we did in modern. Legacy offers a whole new range of broken tools to combat legacy's meta, judging the deck based on what it does in modern is pointless. The format is faster, but it also gives Lantern faster and more efficient answers as well as lands like Ancient Tomb or even Crystal Vein to go faster too. Hell, just Lotus Petal allows a godhand to go Mox Opal into Lantern+Codex turn 1 and Ensnaring Bridge+Discard spell turn 2. The best thing about the deck is that its core is 12 colorless 1cc cards, the options to build around that are limiteless.
I'm really not going to argue about Lantern on legacy or claim it will break it in half or claim it can beat X or Y deck. Honestly because I'm not familiar enough with the format. I've never played legacy because I've always seen it as a too crazy and degenerate fast format for my liking. You can keep theorizing about how it will never amount to nothing, I'll just keep an eye out for the people who are working on legacy lists, which by the way are starting to show great potential. This is a quote from Zac after he took a list to test at a weekly event:
Took this to a weekly legacy event with 16 people. Lost to Elves round 1, won against Manaless Dredge, D&T, Omnitell other rounds. Score of 3-1.
On the first test event... Wins against D&T and Dredge, hmmm aren't those the first two decks you mentioned would be "insta-gibbed" by? Oh, and Omnitell, doesn't that run the cantrip cartel as well as FoW and Daze? I don't know man, theories are just theories, the deck might indeed never make it, but theories won't stop people from trying. I'll just keep watching their progress closely, like I said, I'm not into legacy myself.
PS: The modern thread is from 2012, the date of 2009 comes from when I conceded control of the thread to thnkr and ktkenshin merged a 2009 post by him to allow him control of the OP. Which reminds me, it won't be 3 years to know if the list could work in legacy. It took 3 years in modern because we started working from scratch with just an idea around 12 cards, we had to figure everything out slowly through experience. Developing it for legacy would be much quicker as the experience from modern transfers to legacy. Case in point, Zac's 3-1 in his first test event.
EDIT: Here is a second report from another tester, 3-1 vs D&T, RUG Hypergenesis/Show and Tell, Punishing Jund and Elves:
Round 1: Death and Taxes
G1: Won die roll. I mulliganed to 5 and kept a sketchy hand. It had Lantern, TS, Bayou, UG Sea, Needle. I scry'd a Shredder to the top. TS revealed a hand with Aether Vial, Mom, Thalia, Karakas, SFM, Port and Wasteland. I figured I was already dead, but took the Thalia and crossed my fingers. Basically the rest of the game involved me not having enough mana to operate and dieing to a Batterskull.
G2: Kept 7 and steamrolled him with a turn 2 Bridge (City of Traitors is great in this deck) into the full lantern lock. He never drew a non-land the rest of the game.
G3: He mulliganed and scry'd his card to the top. He played Plains --> Aether Vial. I decided to lead on Shredder and hit him blind. It was a Karakas and his second turn revealed he had no land drop, but a second Aether vial. I got 2 more mill rocks and a Lantern thanks to Mox Opal off the top. He managed to get a Revoker, Serra's Avenger, 2x Mom and a Wingmare in play from the Aether Vials before I finally found Needle to shut them down (all the while keeping him from finding another land). Golgari Charm cleaned up all but the Angel, and on 1 life I finally found a Bridge. I had it from there because I never let him have another land.
Round 2: RUG Hypergenesis/Show and Tell (1-0)
This round was strange because assuming I got an early Bridge, I figured I was unlikely to die, but her deck had a few spicy treats like Warstorm Surge and Bogardan Hellkite, so I could even die without being attacked. Also, without counterspells, I couldn't really stop her from resolving either of the namesake cards. Additionally, she had both 3x Progenitus and 2x Emrakul in the deck, so Milling her out was going to be tough.
G1 + G2: Basically, I got a bridge quickly (G2 off of a Show and Tell) and established enough of the Lantern lock that I could make sure she didn't draw Warstorm Surge. I had to mill + surgical the Emrakuls and then slowly set up a board position where the only cards left in her deck were the 3 Progenitus. Then with Codex Shredder recurring Duress/Surgical I was able to strip enough cards out of her hand so that she couldn't discard Progenitus EoT and she decked. Actually went to time because of how long it takes to create this exact scenario. Fortunately this deck isn't a main stay of Legacy events.
Round 3: Punishing Jund (2-0)
G1: Win the die roll. I mull to 6, keeping an ok set of TS, Lantern, Shredder, 3 lands. Scry reveals a Bridge, so I figure I'm pretty safe. TS reveals opponent has TS, Hymn, DRS, Goyf, Decay, Grove, BS Mire. I'm boned... Took the TS. His DRS leands into a Hymn (that gets my Bridge) and he knows to AD the Lantern the following turn so I can't control my draws and get back into it. I died pretty quick to that Goyf.
G2: On play, keep 7. I decide to lead on Lantern over TS because he isn't a combo deck. Probably a mistake because he had TS for me and took mine. T2 I played a Needle on Liliana (revealed from Lantern) and a Shredder. He plays a DRS and a second TS taking my Bridge. I found another Bridge eventually, and figured I had it stabilized at 8 life. I did not because before I could find another Surgical Extraction to take out his Punishing Fires, he burned me out with the recursion loop.
Round 4: Elves (2-1)
I don't remember all the specifics of this matchup super well, but I know I lost the Die roll and kept 7.
G1: He had a turn 3 Craterhoof kill that I wasn't remotely able to fight back against.
G2: I kept a sketchy 6 with Bridge, Needle, City of Traitors, Mox Opal, Welding Jar, and Thoughtseize. Scry revealed a second Bridge, which I kept on top. I led with the City, Opal, Jar, Needled naming Wirewood, and TS'd him to take away GSZ. Turn 2 I slammed the Bridge, Turn 3 revealed a second Needle, which I put on Wirewood again so he couldn't Rec Sage out of it. The second bridge pretty much sealed the deal. Eventually I drew some mill rocks, and managed to mill him out without ever drawing a Lantern.
G3: This game probably shouldn't count because his turn 1 Llanowar elves died to my Turn 1 of Tree of Tales -> Mox Opal -> Lotus Petal -> Engineered Plague on Elves. I set up the Lantern Lock on the following 2 turns and made sure he didn't draw Rec Sage or GSZ. He tried to use DRS and Nettle Sentinel to get some game going, but a Golgari Charm took care of that nonsense
I'm not chest beating... I'm just saying, people's theories about how it won't make it in legacy are the same theories I heard in modern while developing it.
If that's the case, either you're not actually listening to people's theories or you're confused about the format, because the arguments people are raising are issues specific to Legacy that aren't present in Modern. There's no possible way you could have heard those theories in Modern because the issues don't exist there. (e.g. Brainstorm)
That said, I'm open to being proven wrong if someone can post good results at a large event. Now is the time to try, with DTT banned.
Does lantern even do anything in Legacy? I mean every deck can run 1-4 Sensei's Divining Tops. Paying 1 in response to a Lantern activation seems like it would make it useless. Top definitely does work in the Lantern deck, but I can't help but feeling like Top would end up being a Maindeckable "grafdigger's cage" against this deck.
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I'm not chest beating... I'm just saying, people's theories about how it won't make it in legacy are the same theories I heard in modern while developing it.
If that's the case, either you're not actually listening to people's theories or you're confused about the format, because the arguments people are raising are issues specific to Legacy that aren't present in Modern. There's no possible way you could have heard those theories in Modern because the issues don't exist there. (e.g. Brainstorm)
That said, I'm open to being proven wrong if someone can post good results at a large event. Now is the time to try, with DTT banned.
The card names are different, the arguments are the same. Zac took a starting list for a spin at a 16 man event and went 3-1, he beat Omnitell in that event, which plays Brainstorm with the other cantrips and it plays FoW and Daze. Will Lantern be able to beat it consistently? I don't know. Can it beat decks with Brainstorm and cantrips and FoW/Daze? Evidently yes. I'm not confused about the format, I already said I am not even familiar with the format. I won't try to theorize about if Lantern can beat X or Y deck in legacy, because a) I have no tuned Lantern list for legacy to theorize with and b) I don't know the top tier decks of legacy to theorize how games would pan out. I will sit this one out and just keep an eye on the people who are trying to develop Lantern legacy lists to see what they come up with. I do know the deck has potential, you need good results at a "large" event to even acknowledge that, but to me the mere fact that the first 2 people that put together a quick list for testing at their local events both went 3-1 tells me the deck can definitely work in legacy. And those were just lists put together to start testing the waters, I can't wait to see what they end up with after more testing and tuning.
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Does lantern even do anything in Legacy? I mean every deck can run 1-4 Sensei's Divining Tops. Paying 1 in response to a Lantern activation seems like it would make it useless. Top definitely does work in the Lantern deck, but I can't help but feeling like Top would end up being a Maindeckable "grafdigger's cage" against this deck.
I would guess running 3 Pithing Needle mainboard helps shutting down SDT. Thats not even theorizing that Lantern could discard their SDT turn 1 and make sure they never draw a second copy of it thereafter. Again, the only 2 reports I've seen so far of people playing Lantern in a legacy event both went 3-1, so yeah, Lantern definitely does something in legacy.
Don't go around ***** about legacy cards until you actually play the damn format. Lantern works. It took some time, but it works in Modern like gangbusters, and it can fundamentally work in Legacy too.
This user who posted this list, Svyelunite, wrote this report:
Round 1: Death and Taxes
G1: Won die roll. I mulliganed to 5 and kept a sketchy hand. It had Lantern, TS, Bayou, UG Sea, Needle. I scry'd a Shredder to the top. TS revealed a hand with Aether Vial, Mom, Thalia, Karakas, SFM, Port and Wasteland. I figured I was already dead, but took the Thalia and crossed my fingers. Basically the rest of the game involved me not having enough mana to operate and dieing to a Batterskull.
G2: Kept 7 and steamrolled him with a turn 2 Bridge (City of Traitors is great in this deck) into the full lantern lock. He never drew a non-land the rest of the game.
G3: He mulliganed and scry'd his card to the top. He played Plains --> Aether Vial. I decided to lead on Shredder and hit him blind. It was a Karakas and his second turn revealed he had no land drop, but a second Aether vial. I got 2 more mill rocks and a Lantern thanks to Mox Opal off the top. He managed to get a Revoker, Serra's Avenger, 2x Mom and a Wingmare in play from the Aether Vials before I finally found Needle to shut them down (all the while keeping him from finding another land). Golgari Charm cleaned up all but the Angel, and on 1 life I finally found a Bridge. I had it from there because I never let him have another land.
Round 2: RUG Hypergenesis/Show and Tell (1-0)
This round was strange because assuming I got an early Bridge, I figured I was unlikely to die, but her deck had a few spicy treats like Warstorm Surge and Bogardan Hellkite, so I could even die without being attacked. Also, without counterspells, I couldn't really stop her from resolving either of the namesake cards. Additionally, she had both 3x Progenitus and 2x Emrakul in the deck, so Milling her out was going to be tough.
G1 + G2: Basically, I got a bridge quickly (G2 off of a Show and Tell) and established enough of the Lantern lock that I could make sure she didn't draw Warstorm Surge. I had to mill + surgical the Emrakuls and then slowly set up a board position where the only cards left in her deck were the 3 Progenitus. Then with Codex Shredder recurring Duress/Surgical I was able to strip enough cards out of her hand so that she couldn't discard Progenitus EoT and she decked. Actually went to time because of how long it takes to create this exact scenario. Fortunately this deck isn't a main stay of Legacy events.
Round 3: Punishing Jund (2-0)
G1: Win the die roll. I mull to 6, keeping an ok set of TS, Lantern, Shredder, 3 lands. Scry reveals a Bridge, so I figure I'm pretty safe. TS reveals opponent has TS, Hymn, DRS, Goyf, Decay, Grove, BS Mire. I'm boned... Took the TS. His DRS leands into a Hymn (that gets my Bridge) and he knows to AD the Lantern the following turn so I can't control my draws and get back into it. I died pretty quick to that Goyf.
G2: On play, keep 7. I decide to lead on Lantern over TS because he isn't a combo deck. Probably a mistake because he had TS for me and took mine. T2 I played a Needle on Liliana (revealed from Lantern) and a Shredder. He plays a DRS and a second TS taking my Bridge. I found another Bridge eventually, and figured I had it stabilized at 8 life. I did not because before I could find another Surgical Extraction to take out his Punishing Fires, he burned me out with the recursion loop.
Round 4: Elves (2-1)
I don't remember all the specifics of this matchup super well, but I know I lost the Die roll and kept 7.
G1: He had a turn 3 Craterhoof kill that I wasn't remotely able to fight back against.
G2: I kept a sketchy 6 with Bridge, Needle, City of Traitors, Mox Opal, Welding Jar, and Thoughtseize. Scry revealed a second Bridge, which I kept on top. I led with the City, Opal, Jar, Needled naming Wirewood, and TS'd him to take away GSZ. Turn 2 I slammed the Bridge, Turn 3 revealed a second Needle, which I put on Wirewood again so he couldn't Rec Sage out of it. The second bridge pretty much sealed the deal. Eventually I drew some mill rocks, and managed to mill him out without ever drawing a Lantern.
G3: This game probably shouldn't count because his turn 1 Llanowar elves died to my Turn 1 of Tree of Tales -> Mox Opal -> Lotus Petal -> Engineered Plague on Elves. I set up the Lantern Lock on the following 2 turns and made sure he didn't draw Rec Sage or GSZ. He tried to use DRS and Nettle Sentinel to get some game going, but a Golgari Charm took care of that nonsense
I finished 4th (this store just did standings/prizes instead of a Top cut because we only got 16 ppl). Overall, I think the deck ran pretty well. The MD is probably pretty good for a typical Open or IQ meta (obviously this meta was a little out of the norm, but that happens with smaller events). I don't think I had an optimal SB. Flusterstorm seems like it is probably not worth the space. Hand disruption and Arcane Laboratory are probably a better plan against decks like Storm or Omnitell. Golgari Charm is the perfect split card of extra enchantment hate/sweeper we need. I would suggest playing a 3rd if you expect a lot of Elves/DnT/Goblins. I think it's possible a 4th AD could have been in the place of the Nature's Claim. Grafdigger's Cage is great, the Relic would function better as a Spellbomb or Tormod's Crypt. I'm not completely sold on Engineered Plague because it's only good against a small portion of decks. I think Ghirapur Aether Grid would serve a similar function against a lot more decks, but it would make our mana a lot harder to manage. Food for thought. Feel free to ask questions!
Yeah, I read that Source report earlier, but thanks for posting it. 3-1 at a 16-man local event isn't enough, especially when one of the wins was basically just pulling a 1-of SB Engineered Plague vs Elves (win for any deck) and the Hypergenesis deck seemed untuned (no creatures with ETB-destroy effects? no protection?). Poster even admits it was a weird meta (getting paired against 2 mono-colored creature decks and no Brainstorm or Force of Will, the most commonly played cards in Legacy). I've gone 3-1 at local Legacy with casual jank or untuned versions of tier 3 decks. Sometimes you just catch people off guard or get favorable pairings. Sometimes the local meta is soft. That said, it is a positive starting point for the deck.
How does the deck perform against RUG Delver, Reanimator, SneakShow, Shardless BUG, Team America, TES, Miracles, Grixis Tempo, BURG, ANT?
The card names are different, the arguments are the same.
I am not even familiar with the format
That says it all. Modern doesn't have the number or strength of cantrips, library manipulation and tutoring that Legacy does. It also doesn't have the resilient degenerate combos that Legacy has. Lantern is still minimally tested against those obstacles. If you don't play Legacy, you wouldn't appreciate the difference.
Maybe it could work with more tweaking. Needs larger sample size against tier 1 decks.
"Stop destroying muh narrative that Lantern will dominate legacy!"
You guys asked the question; stop complaining people disagree with your unfounded assertion.
I'm sorry, but pulling random anecdotes doesn't tell us anything unless it's a seasoned large group of players or a very consistent trend. People put up 4-0 results with Cheeri0s, Hypergenesis, Belcher, and other "Lol, Got you" decks. This doesn't mean these decks are good.
We're not saying "How dare you play that deck!" We're saying "Good luck..." because it's not any better than Stasis decks, White Stax, or similar.
Latern was literally a LOL GOT YOU deck and was featured on YouTube about a year before it took off it modern. Can it make it in legacy, probably--but not likely.
And I consider the story a result. Do you honestly think a deck in its infancy is going to take down a 5K and be the most oppressive deck ever on its first run?
And I consider the story a result. Do you honestly think a deck in its infancy is going to take down a 5K and be the most oppressive deck ever on its first run?
lol... these are the same kind of arguments I had to endure while developing Lantern in modern. Deemed a joke that would never make it at first, 3 years later its all the rage in modern.
Sure legacy is harder to tame, but it also offers Lantern new tools to work with. IMO, its not a matter if it could work or not, its a matter of how long does it take to develop a list that works in legacy.
How does Legacy Lantern beat:
Brainstorm
Preordain
Ponder
T1 wins
T2 wins
T1 Goblins
FoW
These see play often. It's my understanding that you rely on controlling people's draws, but Brainstorm completely shuts that plan down. A single wrong card given to the opponent could be a loss.
That says it all. Modern doesn't have the number or strength of cantrips, library manipulation and tutoring that Legacy does. It also doesn't have the resilient degenerate combos that Legacy has. Lantern is still minimally tested against those obstacles. If you don't play Legacy, you wouldn't appreciate the difference.
Maybe it could work with more tweaking. Needs larger sample size against tier 1 decks.
lol. Not only are these the same kind of arguments I heard in modern, its also the same kind of know-it-all attitudes. I don't have to play a format to understand it, because I understand it, is precisely why I stay away from it. It doesn't take a genius to understand it, I just don't like it enough to bother with memorizing what decks are top tier or whatever. What I meant by saying I'm not familiar with the format is that I won't enter into absurd theoretical arguments about how X or Y deck can or cannot beat Lantern. Results do a much better job than theories ever could. So why don't you just stick to the subject rather than trying to discredit me based on your assumptions about my knowledge of the format? tescrin mentioned various decks like D&T and Dredge as being decks that Lantern cannot beat and I posted already 2 event results were people beat both decks with lists that are not even tuned. But instead of replying to that you chose to reply about me not knowing about legacy? Pffftt... my knowledge has nothing to do with the facts, the fact is it has already proved it can beat the decks you called out. You also hail Brainstorm as an unbeatable card and I also posted results of Lantern beating Omnitell a deck with Brainstorm, cantrips, FoW and Daze. But again you said nothing, instead choosing to attack me personally. Now that those decks were beaten by Lantern you throw a second list of decks like RUG Delver, which another player beat at another event and I quote: "Rd 2: RUG Delver (W) - This seems like a reasonable matchup." But I can only guess if I find more results showing it can beat the rest of that list of decks you'll throw a third list of decks to beat. Nothing will satisfy you, you want to see it do good at a large event before giving it any credit, but if it ever does you would probably say its not enough, it needs to Top 8 a GP or something bigger and you'll just keep moving the line further each time. Its what happened in modern too, even in the GPOKC thread, when Day 1 ended the deck was 9-0 and people like Lantern (the mod) would not give it credit saying Day 1 doesn't matter, it needed to Top 8 a GP before he would accept it as a good deck. The deck finished winning the whole tournament and Lantern (the mod) still won't give it any credit. I don't expect people to agree with me because I'm not even trying to make a point here, my whole point from the beginning is that theories prove nothing, games do. And I never said Lantern is or will be good in legacy, I said it has the potential to do so, give it time, people are working on it. These are only test lists, some people working on it are even contemplating the idea of running FoW themselves and testing many other possible inclusions. In modern my original list in 2012 was UW, current lists in 2015 are BGr, nothing close to what it began as. Legacy has a lot more to offer to a deck that is only based on 3 colorless 1cc cards. Could you imagine a deck running discard spells with FoW/Daze that can also control the draw steps AND lock the board? That would be brutal if they made it work, if it ends up not working out it would just be another sad attempt to port a modern deck into legacy. No biggie.
Quote from JPoJohnson »
How does Legacy Lantern beat:
Brainstorm
Preordain
Ponder
T1 wins
T2 wins
T1 Goblins
FoW
These see play often. It's my understanding that you rely on controlling people's draws, but Brainstorm completely shuts that plan down. A single wrong card given to the opponent could be a loss.
Errr... were you reading the thread? I mentioned Zac already went 3-1 at an event, with one of the wins against Omnitell, which correct me if I'm wrong, plays Brainstorm and the rest of the cantrips as well as FoW. But again, I don't want to argue about how it can beat X or Y deck or strategy. Mostly because the lists are not even tuned yet and will probably look a lot different than what they do now. Though targeted discard followed by draw control goes a long way. Lantren not only controls draws, it disrupts the other decks on the way to control the draws. This is why arguments like "Lantern does nothing turns 1-3 and thus will lose" show little understanding of what Lantern really does. But I cannot emphasize enough that they are just testing lists. All these questions of how to beat X or Y deck/strategy is exactly what they are asking themselves. If they already knew how to tackle those successfully they'd be taking down tournaments, but its a new deck in the format. It'll take some time to test and tune trying to figure out how to do it and which cards are best to tackle legacy's meta, which as you all rightfully claim is different than modern. Though I may be right in assuming if other decks can beat T1 win decks, T2 win decks, T1 Goblins and so on... Lantern can figure out how to beat them too.
I think I won't even reply to any more arguments, I really don't like theorizing about it. I'll just let the people working on it and the deck speak for itself with results because I firmly believe that in the near future the question won't be "How does Lantern beat X or Y deck/strategy in legacy?" It will be "How does X or Y deck beat Lantern in legacy?".
At the end of the day, noone really knows if lantern can be a playable fringe deck in legacy, because nobody has really tried yet. I don't think anyone (zerodown included) think it will ever "dominate" or be "tier 1" or whatever nonsense... it can't be that in modern either because it's easily hated. Decks like this can only ever be playable specifically BECAUSE they are fringe and totally unexpected. Lantern has it's day in the spotlight in modern today, and it will probably fade going forward... but there will continue to be a few people who love it and play it and do well.
Arguing about all the powerful stuff that legacy has that modern lantern can't beat is absurd... lantern gets all the legacy toys too. That means jace, it means FOW & daze, it means brainstorm & ponder, it means wasteland, top, counterbalance, city of traitors, ancient tomb, ect. A competitive legacy lantern list probably doesn't look that much like a modern list.
Will lantern ever be legacy playable? I don't know. It's not super likely, but it's not impossible. Most of the arguments here though just add up to "it'll never work because good decks are good" or "stupid modern player doesn't understand legacy." Those arguments are without value... every good legacy deck was worse than reigning legacy decks until someone made it work, and frankly most legacy players don't understand how lantern control works, so the "you don't understand" argument goes both ways.
Finally: You know what kicks the crap out of TES? Turn 1 sphere of resistance. Bring it in instead of ensnaring bridge vs. combo. You're welcome, lantern players!
lol... these are the same kind of arguments I had to endure while developing Lantern in modern. Deemed a joke that would never make it at first, 3 years later its all the rage in modern.
Sure legacy is harder to tame, but it also offers Lantern new tools to work with. IMO, its not a matter if it could work or not, its a matter of how long does it take to develop a list that works in legacy.
That says it all. Modern doesn't have the number or strength of cantrips, library manipulation and tutoring that Legacy does. It also doesn't have the resilient degenerate combos that Legacy has. Lantern is still minimally tested against those obstacles. If you don't play Legacy, you wouldn't appreciate the difference.
Maybe it could work with more tweaking. Needs larger sample size against tier 1 decks.
lol. Not only are these the same kind of arguments I heard in modern, its also the same kind of know-it-all attitudes. I don't have to play a format to understand it, because I understand it, is precisely why I stay away from it. It doesn't take a genius to understand it, I just don't like it enough to bother with memorizing what decks are top tier or whatever. What I meant by saying I'm not familiar with the format is that I won't enter into absurd theoretical arguments about how X or Y deck can or cannot beat Lantern. Results do a much better job than theories ever could. So why don't you just stick to the subject rather than trying to discredit me based on your assumptions about my knowledge of the format? tescrin mentioned various decks like D&T and Dredge as being decks that Lantern cannot beat and I posted already 2 event results were people beat both decks with lists that are not even tuned. But instead of replying to that you chose to reply about me not knowing about legacy? Pffftt... my knowledge has nothing to do with the facts, the fact is it has already proved it can beat the decks you called out. You also hail Brainstorm as an unbeatable card and I also posted results of Lantern beating Omnitell a deck with Brainstorm, cantrips, FoW and Daze. But again you said nothing, instead choosing to attack me personally. Now that those decks were beaten by Lantern you throw a second list of decks like RUG Delver, which another player beat at another event and I quote: "Rd 2: RUG Delver (W) - This seems like a reasonable matchup." But I can only guess if I find more results showing it can beat the rest of that list of decks you'll throw a third list of decks to beat. Nothing will satisfy you, you want to see it do good at a large event before giving it any credit, but if it ever does you would probably say its not enough, it needs to Top 8 a GP or something bigger and you'll just keep moving the line further each time. Its what happened in modern too, even in the GPOKC thread, when Day 1 ended the deck was 9-0 and people like Lantern (the mod) would not give it credit saying Day 1 doesn't matter, it needed to Top 8 a GP before he would accept it as a good deck. The deck finished winning the whole tournament and Lantern (the mod) still won't give it any credit. I don't expect people to agree with me because I'm not even trying to make a point here, my whole point from the beginning is that theories prove nothing, games do. And I never said Lantern is or will be good in legacy, I said it has the potential to do so, give it time, people are working on it. These are only test lists, some people working on it are even contemplating the idea of running FoW themselves and testing many other possible inclusions. In modern my original list in 2012 was UW, current lists in 2015 are BGr, nothing close to what it began as. Legacy has a lot more to offer to a deck that is only based on 3 colorless 1cc cards. Could you imagine a deck running discard spells with FoW/Daze that can also control the draw steps AND lock the board? That would be brutal if they made it work, if it ends up not working out it would just be another sad attempt to port a modern deck into legacy. No biggie.
Quote from JPoJohnson »
How does Legacy Lantern beat:
Brainstorm
Preordain
Ponder
T1 wins
T2 wins
T1 Goblins
FoW
These see play often. It's my understanding that you rely on controlling people's draws, but Brainstorm completely shuts that plan down. A single wrong card given to the opponent could be a loss.
Errr... were you reading the thread? I mentioned Zac already went 3-1 at an event, with one of the wins against Omnitell, which correct me if I'm wrong, plays Brainstorm and the rest of the cantrips as well as FoW. But again, I don't want to argue about how it can beat X or Y deck or strategy. Mostly because the lists are not even tuned yet and will probably look a lot different than what they do now. Though targeted discard followed by draw control goes a long way. Lantren not only controls draws, it disrupts the other decks on the way to control the draws. This is why arguments like "Lantern does nothing turns 1-3 and thus will lose" show little understanding of what Lantern really does. But I cannot emphasize enough that they are just testing lists. All these questions of how to beat X or Y deck/strategy is exactly what they are asking themselves. If they already knew how to tackle those successfully they'd be taking down tournaments, but its a new deck in the format. It'll take some time to test and tune trying to figure out how to do it and which cards are best to tackle legacy's meta, which as you all rightfully claim is different than modern. Though I may be right in assuming if other decks can beat T1 win decks, T2 win decks, T1 Goblins and so on... Lantern can figure out how to beat them too.
I think I won't even reply to any more arguments, I really don't like theorizing about it. I'll just let the people working on it and the deck speak for itself with results because I firmly believe that in the near future the question won't be "How does Lantern beat X or Y deck/strategy in legacy?" It will be "How does X or Y deck beat Lantern in legacy?".
"He went 3-1 at an event already"
"He once beat a mono-blue tier two deck that had a brainstorm"
I'm not hating directly on you or your deck, but these are the weakest arguments I've ever heard - especially based on the report of that 3-1 that he got. the report doesn't make the deck look strong, it makes the meta look weak and the lantern player lucky. You can't point to a single isolated jank experience and honestly try to hang the quality of the deck on that single hook. It's not going to hold up.
What are you ACTUALLY going to do? Comments have said its easily hated out. What happens if I brainstorm and hit an abrupt decay for your bridge? What happens when your at a large event and round three you come up against TES? What is your plan against delver?
Don't point at a single moment and say - ha, suck it. Tell us. I still see all sorts of holes. You tell me I haven't read the thread - I'm telling you that you haven't actually provided a thought out answer that actually addresses a single concern posted.
How does this deck beat any of the current Top Tier decks (reliably)? Seems like the entire gameplan is to win off of an unanswered bridge, at which point your wincon doesn't even matter. Great for catching people by surprise (at least, the ones that have to attack to win), but terrible against anyone who can either just combo kill you or counter your bridge. Or eat your mana base with Loam-Wasteland recursion. You basically roll over and die to a turn one delver with counterspell support
Also, the gameplan of putting cards into people's grave for them is typically somewhat suicidal in legacy. The last thing you want to do is bin someone's Punishing fire for them. Or worse, bin their Past in Flames.
I'm not saying Lantern can't win games, because it obviously can. It just seems to be setting itself up to fail against the matchups that matter. Heck, Ensnaring bridge and 60 islands could probably win a couple of games here and there; it's an amazingly powerful hate card in the right matchups. You'd just probably be better off putting it in a deck with better cards.
Unless your goal is to win using lanterns, in which case, I look forward to seeing how it goes. It's always exciting to see developmental decks perform well. Just remember that playing to win with your pet deck isn't the same thing as playing to win.
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Big Johnny.
The deck basically revolves around durdling for several turns, relying on Ensnaring Bridge beating the format, durdling to screw over draws if opponent has bad cantrips, and then just exiling the few things that can beat Bridge or beat you through it.
This works in Modern and fails in Legacy for several reasons:
1) Assembling lock involves durdling turns 1-3. Modern usually can't win in 1-3 so point is moot. Many Legacy decks can. Heck, even Affinity and Goblins can.
2) Ensnaring Bridge wrecks Modern. Legacy shrugs.
3) Brainstorm, Ponder, Preordain, Sensei's Divining Top, Dig Through Time, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Sylvan Library, Green Sun's Zenith, Natural Order, Entomb, Burning Wish, Cunning Wish, Infernal Tutor+LED, Grim Tutor... not stopping me from finding what I need any time soon
4) There are decks (Dredge, OopsAllSpells) that don't even want to draw cards. Oops.
5) Force of Will & Daze... format has more tools to beat potential lock pieces even when tapped out
6) All those 1cc cards get awkward vs Counterbalance or Chalice of the Void
7) Brainstorm
I would bet large amounts of cash-money that Stasis becomes a real Legacy deck before Lantern does.
Lantern will never really work in Legacy, and I think the reason is mostly #2 above. Modern, as a format, has been strictly limited in terms of cantrips and card selection. In Legacy, these beasts are uncaged and bearing ferocious teeth. In Modern, how hard is it to shut down a deck using Serum Visions by means of Lantern and friends? Clearly plausible, right? But against the cantrip cartel, this is bringing a knife to a gun fight. Then, we have the tutors.
I'd love to have a new deck in Legacy expanding the strategic diversity of the format, but I think this pretty obviously isn't going to be one of them. I predict the following. Some folks take this Lantern idea to a Legacy event, win a few matches on surprise value, but on the whole get crushed because a lot of decks don't rely on their draw step very much at all. Remember how annoying it was to pilot Maverick and shuffle your deck 1-3 times each turn, round after round, for a whole day?
Overall record: 139-98-15
Total number of matches: 252
Win percentage ignoring draws: 58.649789
Win percentage including draws: 55.158730
Sure legacy is harder to tame, but it also offers Lantern new tools to work with. IMO, its not a matter if it could work or not, its a matter of how long does it take to develop a list that works in legacy.
BTW, people, including Zac Elsik, are already working on legacy lists, just not here on MTGSal: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?29842-Legacy-Lantern
Edit: It was also tried here at MTGSal, but the thread never took off, imo, because the deck was still not being taken seriously: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/developing-legacy/554091-top-control
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
You've got the argument reversed. This is a goldfish from turn 1-3. Tons of Legacy decks can beat a goldfish in turns 1-3. Modern decks can't, so it's less of an issue. It's ok for Modern decks to be uninteractive in the early turns. Pure aggro and midrange decks are a thing in Modern. Not so in Legacy. Legacy decks need to either be combo or interact in the early turns to be viable.
When Lantern establishes the lock in Modern it has generally won. This is not true in Legacy because of my points 2 and on (especially point 3 - all the cantrips and tutors directly interact with the lock), so placing the "soft lock" by turn 3 and winning on turn 3 are VERY different things.
I don't know why decks that run Force of Will and Daze/Spell Pierce are your ideas of decks that can't beat Ensnaring Bridge. When that is one of the few cards they need to stop (they can cantrip through Lantern+mill all day), it's probably getting countered.
Miracles and MUD/Chalice Stompy soft locks involve interacting with the stack, stopping spells from resolving. This soft lock involves interacting with the library, preventing cards from being drawn in theory (unless opponent can also interact with the library), but does nothing with the stack, still letting all spells through. The stack is a lot more important in Legacy than in Modern, and not controlling the stack is an issue. In Modern it's close enough because players have so few ways to interact with their own library that you can reasonably deny them cards. In Legacy, they can still find what they need while the "lock" is active.
You're conflating all soft lock decks as though they were all the same. They're not. The underlying mechanics matter. This is why Ankh of Mishra.dec and Stasis.dec aren't even a think, but CounterTop is. "But opponent can't play lands!" "But opponent can't untap lands!". Yeah, but those cards don't do anything with the stack, and opponent can still resolve spells that either beat the lock or just kill you.
Chest beating about it's mild incursion into modern isn't any different than the other myriad decks in modern that attempted to cross the legacy bridge; and then died a horrible death.
Eggs and Jetski Ascendancy being the ones I remember.
The deck is just a JtMS with protection. Why play 30 bad cards to emulate a 3-of Good card?
They're different formats and this idea took 6 years to work (I've found a thread from 2009 trying it out) and a boatload of bannings.
6 years of work to make a deck that sort-of works in a slower format.
In legacy it is insta-gibbed terribly by D&T (Flickerwisp, Revoker), Dredge, Reanimator, Storm, Burn, and that's just off the top of my head. You have 16 cards to replace just off the bat to get it near competitive (Ponder Brainstorm FOW Daze/Spierce) and once you do that you have a delver deck that's replaced creatures and further control with 1-mana mill cards, ensnaring bridges, and lanterns.
You'll also have to add Lands probably because the number of decks running Stifle, Wasteland, Thalia, Port, etc.. outstrip the modern land destruction by (without exaggerating) several hundred percent. For instance, getting Loam-locked T2 by fair decks isn't a thing in Modern; and can be in legacy. KotR fetching Wastelands isn't a thing. T1 Chalice isn't a thing.
I will join the chorus of people saying I'd put actual money on this that this will not see a single Top 8 at an SCG over the next 3 years. Even in a room where only 12 people are playing non-Lantern decks; if they meta-gamed at all they'd probably get there. (12 seems statistically good enough to not have them kill eachother)
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
Because combined, those 30 bad cards make one solid deck with a favorable matchup against everything in the format except burn and some rouge decks?
I'm not chest beating... I'm just saying, people's theories about how it won't make it in legacy are the same theories I heard in modern while developing it.
"Abrupt Decay exists"
"You'll be dead to combo/aggro before you assemble the combo"
"midrange has the tools to break your locks"
"X deck can do this and that"
"These decks play X or Y card"
"It dies to affinity hate"
And a whole list of other comments that didn't add up at the end of the day. What I'm trying to say is that theories are just theories, people will work on this regardless of all the naysayers and they will try to prove them wrong just like we did in modern. Legacy offers a whole new range of broken tools to combat legacy's meta, judging the deck based on what it does in modern is pointless. The format is faster, but it also gives Lantern faster and more efficient answers as well as lands like Ancient Tomb or even Crystal Vein to go faster too. Hell, just Lotus Petal allows a godhand to go Mox Opal into Lantern+Codex turn 1 and Ensnaring Bridge+Discard spell turn 2. The best thing about the deck is that its core is 12 colorless 1cc cards, the options to build around that are limiteless.
I'm really not going to argue about Lantern on legacy or claim it will break it in half or claim it can beat X or Y deck. Honestly because I'm not familiar enough with the format. I've never played legacy because I've always seen it as a too crazy and degenerate fast format for my liking. You can keep theorizing about how it will never amount to nothing, I'll just keep an eye out for the people who are working on legacy lists, which by the way are starting to show great potential. This is a quote from Zac after he took a list to test at a weekly event:
On the first test event... Wins against D&T and Dredge, hmmm aren't those the first two decks you mentioned would be "insta-gibbed" by? Oh, and Omnitell, doesn't that run the cantrip cartel as well as FoW and Daze? I don't know man, theories are just theories, the deck might indeed never make it, but theories won't stop people from trying. I'll just keep watching their progress closely, like I said, I'm not into legacy myself.
PS: The modern thread is from 2012, the date of 2009 comes from when I conceded control of the thread to thnkr and ktkenshin merged a 2009 post by him to allow him control of the OP. Which reminds me, it won't be 3 years to know if the list could work in legacy. It took 3 years in modern because we started working from scratch with just an idea around 12 cards, we had to figure everything out slowly through experience. Developing it for legacy would be much quicker as the experience from modern transfers to legacy. Case in point, Zac's 3-1 in his first test event.
EDIT: Here is a second report from another tester, 3-1 vs D&T, RUG Hypergenesis/Show and Tell, Punishing Jund and Elves:
G1: Won die roll. I mulliganed to 5 and kept a sketchy hand. It had Lantern, TS, Bayou, UG Sea, Needle. I scry'd a Shredder to the top. TS revealed a hand with Aether Vial, Mom, Thalia, Karakas, SFM, Port and Wasteland. I figured I was already dead, but took the Thalia and crossed my fingers. Basically the rest of the game involved me not having enough mana to operate and dieing to a Batterskull.
G2: Kept 7 and steamrolled him with a turn 2 Bridge (City of Traitors is great in this deck) into the full lantern lock. He never drew a non-land the rest of the game.
G3: He mulliganed and scry'd his card to the top. He played Plains --> Aether Vial. I decided to lead on Shredder and hit him blind. It was a Karakas and his second turn revealed he had no land drop, but a second Aether vial. I got 2 more mill rocks and a Lantern thanks to Mox Opal off the top. He managed to get a Revoker, Serra's Avenger, 2x Mom and a Wingmare in play from the Aether Vials before I finally found Needle to shut them down (all the while keeping him from finding another land). Golgari Charm cleaned up all but the Angel, and on 1 life I finally found a Bridge. I had it from there because I never let him have another land.
Round 2: RUG Hypergenesis/Show and Tell (1-0)
This round was strange because assuming I got an early Bridge, I figured I was unlikely to die, but her deck had a few spicy treats like Warstorm Surge and Bogardan Hellkite, so I could even die without being attacked. Also, without counterspells, I couldn't really stop her from resolving either of the namesake cards. Additionally, she had both 3x Progenitus and 2x Emrakul in the deck, so Milling her out was going to be tough.
G1 + G2: Basically, I got a bridge quickly (G2 off of a Show and Tell) and established enough of the Lantern lock that I could make sure she didn't draw Warstorm Surge. I had to mill + surgical the Emrakuls and then slowly set up a board position where the only cards left in her deck were the 3 Progenitus. Then with Codex Shredder recurring Duress/Surgical I was able to strip enough cards out of her hand so that she couldn't discard Progenitus EoT and she decked. Actually went to time because of how long it takes to create this exact scenario. Fortunately this deck isn't a main stay of Legacy events.
Round 3: Punishing Jund (2-0)
G1: Win the die roll. I mull to 6, keeping an ok set of TS, Lantern, Shredder, 3 lands. Scry reveals a Bridge, so I figure I'm pretty safe. TS reveals opponent has TS, Hymn, DRS, Goyf, Decay, Grove, BS Mire. I'm boned... Took the TS. His DRS leands into a Hymn (that gets my Bridge) and he knows to AD the Lantern the following turn so I can't control my draws and get back into it. I died pretty quick to that Goyf.
G2: On play, keep 7. I decide to lead on Lantern over TS because he isn't a combo deck. Probably a mistake because he had TS for me and took mine. T2 I played a Needle on Liliana (revealed from Lantern) and a Shredder. He plays a DRS and a second TS taking my Bridge. I found another Bridge eventually, and figured I had it stabilized at 8 life. I did not because before I could find another Surgical Extraction to take out his Punishing Fires, he burned me out with the recursion loop.
Round 4: Elves (2-1)
I don't remember all the specifics of this matchup super well, but I know I lost the Die roll and kept 7.
G1: He had a turn 3 Craterhoof kill that I wasn't remotely able to fight back against.
G2: I kept a sketchy 6 with Bridge, Needle, City of Traitors, Mox Opal, Welding Jar, and Thoughtseize. Scry revealed a second Bridge, which I kept on top. I led with the City, Opal, Jar, Needled naming Wirewood, and TS'd him to take away GSZ. Turn 2 I slammed the Bridge, Turn 3 revealed a second Needle, which I put on Wirewood again so he couldn't Rec Sage out of it. The second bridge pretty much sealed the deal. Eventually I drew some mill rocks, and managed to mill him out without ever drawing a Lantern.
G3: This game probably shouldn't count because his turn 1 Llanowar elves died to my Turn 1 of Tree of Tales -> Mox Opal -> Lotus Petal -> Engineered Plague on Elves. I set up the Lantern Lock on the following 2 turns and made sure he didn't draw Rec Sage or GSZ. He tried to use DRS and Nettle Sentinel to get some game going, but a Golgari Charm took care of that nonsense
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
If that's the case, either you're not actually listening to people's theories or you're confused about the format, because the arguments people are raising are issues specific to Legacy that aren't present in Modern. There's no possible way you could have heard those theories in Modern because the issues don't exist there. (e.g. Brainstorm)
That said, I'm open to being proven wrong if someone can post good results at a large event. Now is the time to try, with DTT banned.
R8whackR
WUBGAtraxa Stax-Superfriends *Under Construction*WUBG
The card names are different, the arguments are the same. Zac took a starting list for a spin at a 16 man event and went 3-1, he beat Omnitell in that event, which plays Brainstorm with the other cantrips and it plays FoW and Daze. Will Lantern be able to beat it consistently? I don't know. Can it beat decks with Brainstorm and cantrips and FoW/Daze? Evidently yes. I'm not confused about the format, I already said I am not even familiar with the format. I won't try to theorize about if Lantern can beat X or Y deck in legacy, because a) I have no tuned Lantern list for legacy to theorize with and b) I don't know the top tier decks of legacy to theorize how games would pan out. I will sit this one out and just keep an eye on the people who are trying to develop Lantern legacy lists to see what they come up with. I do know the deck has potential, you need good results at a "large" event to even acknowledge that, but to me the mere fact that the first 2 people that put together a quick list for testing at their local events both went 3-1 tells me the deck can definitely work in legacy. And those were just lists put together to start testing the waters, I can't wait to see what they end up with after more testing and tuning.
I would guess running 3 Pithing Needle mainboard helps shutting down SDT. Thats not even theorizing that Lantern could discard their SDT turn 1 and make sure they never draw a second copy of it thereafter. Again, the only 2 reports I've seen so far of people playing Lantern in a legacy event both went 3-1, so yeah, Lantern definitely does something in legacy.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
From The Source!
4 Ghoulcaller's Bell
4 Codex Shredder
2 Field of Dreams
4 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Mox Opal
1 Lotus Petal
2 Welding Jar
3 Pithing Needle
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Tree of Tales
1 Vault of Whispers
2 City of Traitors
2 Academy Ruins
1 Sheltered Valley
1 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Flusterstorm
2 Arcane Laboratory
1 Nature's Claim
2 Golgari Charm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Engineered Plague
1 Darkblast
Don't go around ***** about legacy cards until you actually play the damn format. Lantern works. It took some time, but it works in Modern like gangbusters, and it can fundamentally work in Legacy too.
This user who posted this list, Svyelunite, wrote this report:
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
City of Traitors seems like a great idea. Reduces durdling.
How does the deck perform against RUG Delver, Reanimator, SneakShow, Shardless BUG, Team America, TES, Miracles, Grixis Tempo, BURG, ANT?
That says it all. Modern doesn't have the number or strength of cantrips, library manipulation and tutoring that Legacy does. It also doesn't have the resilient degenerate combos that Legacy has. Lantern is still minimally tested against those obstacles. If you don't play Legacy, you wouldn't appreciate the difference.
Maybe it could work with more tweaking. Needs larger sample size against tier 1 decks.
"Stop destroying muh narrative that Lantern will dominate legacy!"
You guys asked the question; stop complaining people disagree with your unfounded assertion.
I'm sorry, but pulling random anecdotes doesn't tell us anything unless it's a seasoned large group of players or a very consistent trend. People put up 4-0 results with Cheeri0s, Hypergenesis, Belcher, and other "Lol, Got you" decks. This doesn't mean these decks are good.
We're not saying "How dare you play that deck!" We're saying "Good luck..." because it's not any better than Stasis decks, White Stax, or similar.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
And I consider the story a result. Do you honestly think a deck in its infancy is going to take down a 5K and be the most oppressive deck ever on its first run?
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
Yes
I'll make it happen don't you worry.
How does Legacy Lantern beat:
Brainstorm
Preordain
Ponder
T1 wins
T2 wins
T1 Goblins
FoW
These see play often. It's my understanding that you rely on controlling people's draws, but Brainstorm completely shuts that plan down. A single wrong card given to the opponent could be a loss.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
lol. Not only are these the same kind of arguments I heard in modern, its also the same kind of know-it-all attitudes. I don't have to play a format to understand it, because I understand it, is precisely why I stay away from it. It doesn't take a genius to understand it, I just don't like it enough to bother with memorizing what decks are top tier or whatever. What I meant by saying I'm not familiar with the format is that I won't enter into absurd theoretical arguments about how X or Y deck can or cannot beat Lantern. Results do a much better job than theories ever could. So why don't you just stick to the subject rather than trying to discredit me based on your assumptions about my knowledge of the format? tescrin mentioned various decks like D&T and Dredge as being decks that Lantern cannot beat and I posted already 2 event results were people beat both decks with lists that are not even tuned. But instead of replying to that you chose to reply about me not knowing about legacy? Pffftt... my knowledge has nothing to do with the facts, the fact is it has already proved it can beat the decks you called out. You also hail Brainstorm as an unbeatable card and I also posted results of Lantern beating Omnitell a deck with Brainstorm, cantrips, FoW and Daze. But again you said nothing, instead choosing to attack me personally. Now that those decks were beaten by Lantern you throw a second list of decks like RUG Delver, which another player beat at another event and I quote: "Rd 2: RUG Delver (W) - This seems like a reasonable matchup." But I can only guess if I find more results showing it can beat the rest of that list of decks you'll throw a third list of decks to beat. Nothing will satisfy you, you want to see it do good at a large event before giving it any credit, but if it ever does you would probably say its not enough, it needs to Top 8 a GP or something bigger and you'll just keep moving the line further each time. Its what happened in modern too, even in the GPOKC thread, when Day 1 ended the deck was 9-0 and people like Lantern (the mod) would not give it credit saying Day 1 doesn't matter, it needed to Top 8 a GP before he would accept it as a good deck. The deck finished winning the whole tournament and Lantern (the mod) still won't give it any credit. I don't expect people to agree with me because I'm not even trying to make a point here, my whole point from the beginning is that theories prove nothing, games do. And I never said Lantern is or will be good in legacy, I said it has the potential to do so, give it time, people are working on it. These are only test lists, some people working on it are even contemplating the idea of running FoW themselves and testing many other possible inclusions. In modern my original list in 2012 was UW, current lists in 2015 are BGr, nothing close to what it began as. Legacy has a lot more to offer to a deck that is only based on 3 colorless 1cc cards. Could you imagine a deck running discard spells with FoW/Daze that can also control the draw steps AND lock the board? That would be brutal if they made it work, if it ends up not working out it would just be another sad attempt to port a modern deck into legacy. No biggie.
Errr... were you reading the thread? I mentioned Zac already went 3-1 at an event, with one of the wins against Omnitell, which correct me if I'm wrong, plays Brainstorm and the rest of the cantrips as well as FoW. But again, I don't want to argue about how it can beat X or Y deck or strategy. Mostly because the lists are not even tuned yet and will probably look a lot different than what they do now. Though targeted discard followed by draw control goes a long way. Lantren not only controls draws, it disrupts the other decks on the way to control the draws. This is why arguments like "Lantern does nothing turns 1-3 and thus will lose" show little understanding of what Lantern really does. But I cannot emphasize enough that they are just testing lists. All these questions of how to beat X or Y deck/strategy is exactly what they are asking themselves. If they already knew how to tackle those successfully they'd be taking down tournaments, but its a new deck in the format. It'll take some time to test and tune trying to figure out how to do it and which cards are best to tackle legacy's meta, which as you all rightfully claim is different than modern. Though I may be right in assuming if other decks can beat T1 win decks, T2 win decks, T1 Goblins and so on... Lantern can figure out how to beat them too.
I think I won't even reply to any more arguments, I really don't like theorizing about it. I'll just let the people working on it and the deck speak for itself with results because I firmly believe that in the near future the question won't be "How does Lantern beat X or Y deck/strategy in legacy?" It will be "How does X or Y deck beat Lantern in legacy?".
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
Arguing about all the powerful stuff that legacy has that modern lantern can't beat is absurd... lantern gets all the legacy toys too. That means jace, it means FOW & daze, it means brainstorm & ponder, it means wasteland, top, counterbalance, city of traitors, ancient tomb, ect. A competitive legacy lantern list probably doesn't look that much like a modern list.
Will lantern ever be legacy playable? I don't know. It's not super likely, but it's not impossible. Most of the arguments here though just add up to "it'll never work because good decks are good" or "stupid modern player doesn't understand legacy." Those arguments are without value... every good legacy deck was worse than reigning legacy decks until someone made it work, and frankly most legacy players don't understand how lantern control works, so the "you don't understand" argument goes both ways.
Finally: You know what kicks the crap out of TES? Turn 1 sphere of resistance. Bring it in instead of ensnaring bridge vs. combo. You're welcome, lantern players!
Lateran is still a joke in modern
Spam warning issued.
- Teia
"He went 3-1 at an event already"
"He once beat a mono-blue tier two deck that had a brainstorm"
I'm not hating directly on you or your deck, but these are the weakest arguments I've ever heard - especially based on the report of that 3-1 that he got. the report doesn't make the deck look strong, it makes the meta look weak and the lantern player lucky. You can't point to a single isolated jank experience and honestly try to hang the quality of the deck on that single hook. It's not going to hold up.
What are you ACTUALLY going to do? Comments have said its easily hated out. What happens if I brainstorm and hit an abrupt decay for your bridge? What happens when your at a large event and round three you come up against TES? What is your plan against delver?
Don't point at a single moment and say - ha, suck it. Tell us. I still see all sorts of holes. You tell me I haven't read the thread - I'm telling you that you haven't actually provided a thought out answer that actually addresses a single concern posted.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Also, the gameplan of putting cards into people's grave for them is typically somewhat suicidal in legacy. The last thing you want to do is bin someone's Punishing fire for them. Or worse, bin their Past in Flames.
I'm not saying Lantern can't win games, because it obviously can. It just seems to be setting itself up to fail against the matchups that matter. Heck, Ensnaring bridge and 60 islands could probably win a couple of games here and there; it's an amazingly powerful hate card in the right matchups. You'd just probably be better off putting it in a deck with better cards.
Unless your goal is to win using lanterns, in which case, I look forward to seeing how it goes. It's always exciting to see developmental decks perform well. Just remember that playing to win with your pet deck isn't the same thing as playing to win.