I've seen esper deathblade/stoneblade and some variations with delver in them but I couldn't find any pure UWB Delver decks
Since I couldn't find any - I was wondering if anyone has experimented with this model?
I was looking for a list that would be deprived of Stoneforge mystic. I understand the importance of the card but I'm really more interested if an aggro version could be made
What got me interested in this shell was really the idea of abusing hand disruption, brain storm, and StP in one deck. I mean what's not to like there?
So here's the deal, in my mind, about Esper Delver. Any Delver variant wants to be a tempo deck. At the heart of tempo decks are three things: hyper efficient threats and free/cheap conditional counterspells and finally Land Destruction. We can easily accomplish the last two in Esper Delver: Daze, Force of Will, and potentially Spell Pierce paired with Wasteland and Stifle. The key issue here is 1) the lack of cheap efficient threats like Nimble Mongoose or Tarmogoyf from Green or Young Pyromancer, Monastery Swiftspear or Goblin Guide from Red. The Esper mana base allows for Delver of Secrets itself, and some combination of Tasigur, Angler, Tombstalker and Dark Confidant. White potentially allows for Monastery Mentor.
A couple thoughts, comments and concerns: Swords to Plowshares is the best removal spell in the format. Problematically, it slows the game down. This has traditionally been a problem in White splashing Delver lists. Vindicate is a great card, its home is not in a tempo deck. Tapping out for a 3cmc sorcery is not part of Delver's tempo plan. I also sincerely dislike Dig Through Time in any Delver list, including this one. I can take or leave Deathrite Shaman, so I'll just let it slide. Problematically, without a green splash, it does not do great service as graveyard hate. A miser green source might be necessary. I think there are two ways to go from here: The first is 1-2 copies of True-Name Nemesis to serve as a Tarmogoyf-esq wall or to fully commit to the Monastery Mentor plan, which ideally includes some number of Gitaxian Probes and Cabal Therapies.
I think both lists need the full 20 lands, considering that they are looking to cast 3cmc spells while also wasting an opponent as much as possible. I think the miser Tarpit could be something else, but without it there are very few ways for this deck to interact with a resolved Jace (or other planeswalker). I think the second list is better in more established metas as the Cabal Therapy/Probe combo is best when you can peg what your opponents are on. Simultaneously, it rewards higher player skill more. The first list is probably better in unknown metas, since a resolved True-Name is impossible for many strategies to beat. I am specifically concerned about the Miracles matchup for both lists, as the lack of Green and Red cut off all the best answers to Counterbalance, specifically, no Red Blast, Abrupt Decay or Krosan Grip. That leaves us in the very awkward situation of potentially siding into Vindicates (which is actually excellent against Miracles since they play 1-2 Council's Judgement and 1-2 Entreat the Angels for their 3cmc slot), or something like Disenchant.
This color combination, however, opens up the best possible sideboard hate cards. Supreme Verdict is in our colors, as is Rest in Peace. Heck, we can even play Aethersworn Canonist/Meddling Mage in the board to lock up the combo matchup. I also don't hate something like Armageddon in the board to help win the Miracles/Lands/Cloudpost matchup. In any event, let me know what you think.
I'm wondering if Myth Realized isn't a better threat in the proposed deck than Mentor. My take on it is:
Pros of Myth Realized:
1 mana makes it a cheaper threat
Potential to grow very large just by carrying out your game plan
Avoids sorcery speed creature removal/sweepers
Cons of Myth Realized:
Vertical growth rather than horizontal makes it easier for your opponent to 1-for-1 you
Worse top deck than Mentor
Vulnerable to enchantment removal
Both cards have merit, not sure if MR would be an upgrade, but I think it's worth discussion.
I'm really not sure if they're at all similar. In order for Myth Realized to be a valuable part of any deck, it needs to come down on Turn 1. That, in turn, necessitates playing 4 copies. In the games where you don't have one in your opener (roughly 60% of the time), that means that you're going to top-deck a Myth Realized at some point. That top-decked Myth is just plain atrocious. It is a dead draw when hellbent, it doesn't contribute to the Tempo plan at all, as it requires mana to activate. At least Monastery Mentor can chump when you top-deck it late. I can certainly see an argument for playing less Mentors, but I don't think I can see Myth Realized in a list like this at all.
I wouldn't hate it as a sideboard card, however. I imagine it can do a considerable amount of work in certain matchups (Lands comes to mind). Ideally it would be for matchups where you're expecting to go super late, and to have all your mana in play.
So here's the deal, in my mind, about Esper Delver. Any Delver variant wants to be a tempo deck. At the heart of tempo decks are three things: hyper efficient threats and free/cheap conditional counterspells and finally Land Destruction. We can easily accomplish the last two in Esper Delver: Daze, Force of Will, and potentially Spell Pierce paired with Wasteland and Stifle. The key issue here is 1) the lack of cheap efficient threats like Nimble Mongoose or Tarmogoyf from Green or Young Pyromancer, Monastery Swiftspear or Goblin Guide from Red. The Esper mana base allows for Delver of Secrets itself, and some combination of Tasigur, Angler, Tombstalker and Dark Confidant. White potentially allows for Monastery Mentor.
Thank you for that insight.
Now perhaps I was to eager to throw in vindicate main board. I personally love the card and if anything it I feel it needs a spot in the SB.
I Don't necessarily feel we are at a perhaps crucial lack of efficient creatures, yes the green beaters are prime but I'm highly optimistic of the new delve creatures.
In essence we can disrupt/swords their threats and by turn 3 maybe drop down a fang/tombstalker/TNN
Now I haven't seen a blue list lately that doesn't seem to run Dig Through Time so I kinda just tried to make room for one copy.
If everyone is jumping off a bridge shouldn't I mentality? But I was fearful that some of our best creatures rely on delve and its not like this is a dredge deck thats gonna have it's whole deck in the GY
I like TNN. No experience with Monastery Mentor and kinda waiting to see if it is powerful but I love cabal therapy and probe. I personally hate miracles and that style of super end game... x 4 Chalice of the Void SB? Super hose them
One more thing? No love for snapcaster? - with all the swords/thoughtseizes/stifles that the little dude could pull some huge value plays
Hello there! I can certainly address your points more in depth. Note that this is my impression of the situation and not necessarily the best option. I encourage you to playtest with all these options.
In regards to Vindicate: I love it too. I've been trying to find a list to play it in forever. The best option has been an Esper Vindicate/Snapcaster shell. It's still not efficient enough for a Delver list though. Delver lists are looking to play with 2 lands. A 3cmc 1-for-1 is not ideal. I do like it out of the board to handle troublesome things like Stoneforge->Batterskull and Jace.
Efficient beats are the name of the game. Without access to the green/red beaters, we have to rely on the delve ones. While they're good when they're good, their floor is much lower. You can cast a Goyf into a Rest in Peace, you can't cast a Tombstalker. As far as the split between them, I think testing is needed. They all have pros and cons.
Dig Through Time is an insanely powerful card in the right shell. In those shells its used to dig, usually, for singletons or golden bullets. In Delver lists, everything pretty much does the same thing. There are no silver bullets. There's really not much value to be gained from Dig, particularly when it clashes with the creature delve requirements.
Mentor, Probe, and Cabal Therapy are insane. I encourage you to test either version. Mentor is the vastly stronger long game, TNN is nearly unanswerable. Without equipment it's a somewhat lackluster clock, but oh well. To hose Miracles, I wouldn't necessarily play Chalice. Yeah they have a lot of 1cmc stuff, but Top probably comes down before it, and all their action spells aren't 1cmc. I really love Gaddock Teeg against miracles, but that's not happening so, I strongly approve of a powerful discard/counter suite and to play very aggressively. Miracles will always have an answer, but then might not have it *now*. Don't get sucked into the game-plan of durdling and doing nothing, you can't beat them at that.
RollerSnapsticoaster (That is, Snapcaster Mage), is a lovely gentleman. The concern with him, in a Delver list, is that 1) he's an additional creature spell that doesn't flip Delver 2) He is only relevant when you have 3+ mana in play (not happening often in a Delver list) and 3) he competes with delve. I think he might be worth a slot or two just for incremental play value or if you're low on creatures, but I would never play 4 or even 3.
Note that this is my impression of the situation and not necessarily the best option. I encourage you to playtest with all these options.
Your wisdom is equally matched by your friendliness.
I will test the mentor, probe, cabal concoction but I wonder is there anyway to fit cabal/probe with delver without going grixis. I love my lightning bolts but they just fall short when facing down griselbrands and goyfs.
Is it possible to run mentor with delvers?
On a side note, any worthiness of including Zealous Persecution in a mentor list?
Note that this is my impression of the situation and not necessarily the best option. I encourage you to playtest with all these options.
Your wisdom is equally matched by your friendliness.
I will test the mentor, probe, cabal concoction but I wonder is there anyway to fit cabal/probe with delver without going grixis. I love my lightning bolts but they just fall short when facing down griselbrands and goyfs.
Is it possible to run mentor with delvers?
On a side note, any worthiness of including Zealous Persecution in a mentor list?
Hey now, I'm just trying to be a good neighbor. I do think it's possible as they're both looking for the same thing: many cheap spells. It's a balancing act because Mentor isn't super synergistic with a tempo strategy of Wasteland/Stifle. There's probably a middle ground where the tempo aspects of Delver and the insane power of a Mentor can mesh together. In that sort of list, Zealous Persecution is insane. It does work against many of the formats best decks and is a +2/+2 to most of your team. I wouldn't hate a copy or two main, with another one or two in the side.
I'd overplay the mana denial and I'd surrender immediately to Death and Taxes and very quickly to Elves and go to the SB. I think it would play pretty well against much of the rest of the current field.
I know that stoneforge is not in your intended game plan, but for any deck running esper, stoneforge provides you with definitive advantage against much of the meta. The list I’ve put together runs 3 stoneforge, with a lesser number of Gurmag anglers, as well as a drop in the traditional 4 thought scour. I would reccomend Andrea Mengucci’s videos on his esper delver list, as they show how it interacts with the field, as well as the importance of stoneforge.
Also, I reccomend splashing green, primarily for the added flexibility and full utilisation of deathrite shaman, as well as cards like abrupt decay in the mainboard (which allow for less risk against cards like blood moon, thereby opening up your manabase options) as well as ones like life from the loam and sylvan library in the sideboard.
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Since I couldn't find any - I was wondering if anyone has experimented with this model?
I was looking for a list that would be deprived of Stoneforge mystic. I understand the importance of the card but I'm really more interested if an aggro version could be made
What got me interested in this shell was really the idea of abusing hand disruption, brain storm, and StP in one deck. I mean what's not to like there?
So far I’ve been tinkering with this
Creatures: (12)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Tombstalker/Gold Fang/Angler
2 Snapcaster Mage
Snitzel: (28)
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Vindicate
4 Thoughtseize
3 Stifle
4 Ponder
1 Dig Through Time
Lands: 18
I was thinking of maybe throwing in a monastery mentor as well...
A couple thoughts, comments and concerns: Swords to Plowshares is the best removal spell in the format. Problematically, it slows the game down. This has traditionally been a problem in White splashing Delver lists. Vindicate is a great card, its home is not in a tempo deck. Tapping out for a 3cmc sorcery is not part of Delver's tempo plan. I also sincerely dislike Dig Through Time in any Delver list, including this one. I can take or leave Deathrite Shaman, so I'll just let it slide. Problematically, without a green splash, it does not do great service as graveyard hate. A miser green source might be necessary. I think there are two ways to go from here: The first is 1-2 copies of True-Name Nemesis to serve as a Tarmogoyf-esq wall or to fully commit to the Monastery Mentor plan, which ideally includes some number of Gitaxian Probes and Cabal Therapies.
The first looks something like this:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
1x Tasigur the Golden Fang
1x Tomb Stalker
2x True Name Nemesis
Permission(20)
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Thoughtseize
4x Brainstorm
4x Ponder
Lands(20)
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Creeping Tarpit
4x Wasteland
The other potential option is something like this:
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Monastary Mentor
Permission(20)
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Stifle
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Cabal Therapy
4x Brainstorm
4x Gitaxian Probe
Land(20)
4x Polluted Delta
4x Flooded Strand
3x Underground Sea
3x Tundra
1x Scrubland
1x Creeping Tarpit
4x Wasteland
I think both lists need the full 20 lands, considering that they are looking to cast 3cmc spells while also wasting an opponent as much as possible. I think the miser Tarpit could be something else, but without it there are very few ways for this deck to interact with a resolved Jace (or other planeswalker). I think the second list is better in more established metas as the Cabal Therapy/Probe combo is best when you can peg what your opponents are on. Simultaneously, it rewards higher player skill more. The first list is probably better in unknown metas, since a resolved True-Name is impossible for many strategies to beat. I am specifically concerned about the Miracles matchup for both lists, as the lack of Green and Red cut off all the best answers to Counterbalance, specifically, no Red Blast, Abrupt Decay or Krosan Grip. That leaves us in the very awkward situation of potentially siding into Vindicates (which is actually excellent against Miracles since they play 1-2 Council's Judgement and 1-2 Entreat the Angels for their 3cmc slot), or something like Disenchant.
This color combination, however, opens up the best possible sideboard hate cards. Supreme Verdict is in our colors, as is Rest in Peace. Heck, we can even play Aethersworn Canonist/Meddling Mage in the board to lock up the combo matchup. I also don't hate something like Armageddon in the board to help win the Miracles/Lands/Cloudpost matchup. In any event, let me know what you think.
Pros of Myth Realized:
1 mana makes it a cheaper threat
Potential to grow very large just by carrying out your game plan
Avoids sorcery speed creature removal/sweepers
Cons of Myth Realized:
Vertical growth rather than horizontal makes it easier for your opponent to 1-for-1 you
Worse top deck than Mentor
Vulnerable to enchantment removal
Both cards have merit, not sure if MR would be an upgrade, but I think it's worth discussion.
Legacy
Control
Miracles
All flavors of Stoneblade
Aggro
Grixis Delver
UR Delver
Burn
Combo
Dredge
TES/ANT
UR & UB Reanimator
Belcher
Legacy
Control
Miracles
All flavors of Stoneblade
Aggro
Grixis Delver
UR Delver
Burn
Combo
Dredge
TES/ANT
UR & UB Reanimator
Belcher
I wouldn't hate it as a sideboard card, however. I imagine it can do a considerable amount of work in certain matchups (Lands comes to mind). Ideally it would be for matchups where you're expecting to go super late, and to have all your mana in play.
Thank you for that insight.
Now perhaps I was to eager to throw in vindicate main board. I personally love the card and if anything it I feel it needs a spot in the SB.
I Don't necessarily feel we are at a perhaps crucial lack of efficient creatures, yes the green beaters are prime but I'm highly optimistic of the new delve creatures.
In essence we can disrupt/swords their threats and by turn 3 maybe drop down a fang/tombstalker/TNN
Now I haven't seen a blue list lately that doesn't seem to run Dig Through Time so I kinda just tried to make room for one copy.
If everyone is jumping off a bridge shouldn't I mentality? But I was fearful that some of our best creatures rely on delve and its not like this is a dredge deck thats gonna have it's whole deck in the GY
I like TNN. No experience with Monastery Mentor and kinda waiting to see if it is powerful but I love cabal therapy and probe. I personally hate miracles and that style of super end game... x 4 Chalice of the Void SB? Super hose them
One more thing? No love for snapcaster? - with all the swords/thoughtseizes/stifles that the little dude could pull some huge value plays
In regards to Vindicate: I love it too. I've been trying to find a list to play it in forever. The best option has been an Esper Vindicate/Snapcaster shell. It's still not efficient enough for a Delver list though. Delver lists are looking to play with 2 lands. A 3cmc 1-for-1 is not ideal. I do like it out of the board to handle troublesome things like Stoneforge->Batterskull and Jace.
Efficient beats are the name of the game. Without access to the green/red beaters, we have to rely on the delve ones. While they're good when they're good, their floor is much lower. You can cast a Goyf into a Rest in Peace, you can't cast a Tombstalker. As far as the split between them, I think testing is needed. They all have pros and cons.
Dig Through Time is an insanely powerful card in the right shell. In those shells its used to dig, usually, for singletons or golden bullets. In Delver lists, everything pretty much does the same thing. There are no silver bullets. There's really not much value to be gained from Dig, particularly when it clashes with the creature delve requirements.
Mentor, Probe, and Cabal Therapy are insane. I encourage you to test either version. Mentor is the vastly stronger long game, TNN is nearly unanswerable. Without equipment it's a somewhat lackluster clock, but oh well. To hose Miracles, I wouldn't necessarily play Chalice. Yeah they have a lot of 1cmc stuff, but Top probably comes down before it, and all their action spells aren't 1cmc. I really love Gaddock Teeg against miracles, but that's not happening so, I strongly approve of a powerful discard/counter suite and to play very aggressively. Miracles will always have an answer, but then might not have it *now*. Don't get sucked into the game-plan of durdling and doing nothing, you can't beat them at that.
RollerSnapsticoaster (That is, Snapcaster Mage), is a lovely gentleman. The concern with him, in a Delver list, is that 1) he's an additional creature spell that doesn't flip Delver 2) He is only relevant when you have 3+ mana in play (not happening often in a Delver list) and 3) he competes with delve. I think he might be worth a slot or two just for incremental play value or if you're low on creatures, but I would never play 4 or even 3.
Your wisdom is equally matched by your friendliness.
I will test the mentor, probe, cabal concoction but I wonder is there anyway to fit cabal/probe with delver without going grixis. I love my lightning bolts but they just fall short when facing down griselbrands and goyfs.
Is it possible to run mentor with delvers?
On a side note, any worthiness of including Zealous Persecution in a mentor list?
Hey now, I'm just trying to be a good neighbor. I do think it's possible as they're both looking for the same thing: many cheap spells. It's a balancing act because Mentor isn't super synergistic with a tempo strategy of Wasteland/Stifle. There's probably a middle ground where the tempo aspects of Delver and the insane power of a Mentor can mesh together. In that sort of list, Zealous Persecution is insane. It does work against many of the formats best decks and is a +2/+2 to most of your team. I wouldn't hate a copy or two main, with another one or two in the side.
Creatures (10)
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Gurmag Angler
Open Permanents (3) - 3 of Liliana of the Veil or Vendilion Clique/True-Name Nemesis. Pick your poison depending on your meta.
Disruption (25)
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Vindicate
4 Stifle
4 Wasteland
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
Glue (8)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
Mana Lands (14)
3-4 Polluted Delta
2-4 Flooded Strand
0-2 Marsh Flats
3-4 Underground Sea
1-2 Tundra
1 of Island or Swamp depending on your 3 drop above.
SB
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Rest in Peace
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Engineered Plague
8 cards based on the expected meta.
I'd overplay the mana denial and I'd surrender immediately to Death and Taxes and very quickly to Elves and go to the SB. I think it would play pretty well against much of the rest of the current field.
I know that stoneforge is not in your intended game plan, but for any deck running esper, stoneforge provides you with definitive advantage against much of the meta. The list I’ve put together runs 3 stoneforge, with a lesser number of Gurmag anglers, as well as a drop in the traditional 4 thought scour. I would reccomend Andrea Mengucci’s videos on his esper delver list, as they show how it interacts with the field, as well as the importance of stoneforge.
Also, I reccomend splashing green, primarily for the added flexibility and full utilisation of deathrite shaman, as well as cards like abrupt decay in the mainboard (which allow for less risk against cards like blood moon, thereby opening up your manabase options) as well as ones like life from the loam and sylvan library in the sideboard.