I present to you a deck I created to make actual use of waste not, rather than trying to just stick it into a control deck with discard spells and failing.
The unique engine uses black discard, wistful thinking, and cephalid coliseum to gain card draw off of waste not and dream salvage. By targeting the opponent with coliseum and thinking, we get triggers even after the opponent is hellbent. This allows the deck to cast early discard before waste not and still get huge value from it later on, unlike other waste not decks I've seen.
I toyed around with a few different win-cons including the rack and even tendrils since the deck can generate a very high storm count later in the game but empty the pits seems to be the easiest and most consistent. In several games I've drawn almost the whole library. Haunting echoes I think may also be playable here.
Before you try goldfishing the deck, don't waste your time (no pun intended). The engine is too interactive.
I won't try to talk you into playing this deck or go on about how good it is, but it does compete with other Legacy decks. It's not going to break the format.
I had 4x hymn in my beginning list but once I did some play-testing I had to cut some to make room for other cards. Hymn is mostly useless once the opponent's hand is empty unlike thinking/coliseum. With testing I was able to find the right balance between cards good early and cards good late-game.
When designing the deck I had my eye on other discard spells including inquisition of kozilek, funeral charm, and blackmail. Each of these has advantages but likely aren't powerful enough to take one of the discard slots.
Other cards I've considered but not tested: Anvil of bogardan may be playable since everything it does is relevant. I hate discarding a big pile at the end of turn. Lore broker I like but may not be powerful enough. The looting effect on both players is good though.
In a casual deck I would definitely play wheel and deal because it's insane, but we cannot allow our opponent to play instants he draws.
Red may be a worthy splash for dack fayden. I don't think I would run burning inquiry because I'd like to maintain control of my own hand.
Putting waste not into a deck with a bunch of black discard spells is what most people seem to have been doing up to this point and it's the wrong idea.
I really like the idea behind this deck. I have been working on a similar build but operates little more along the lines of a straight combo deck using a storm style engine. Lots of fast mana, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond etc.. Dark Deal and Ill-Gotten Gains are really good here.
EDIT: I actually do run Burning Inquiry and I actually really like it. It's so good for it's casting cost.
How is it testing for you? I'm going to proxy up your build and test it out you've got some really good card choices. Wistful Thinking looks nuts here! Can't wait to try it out.
Actually assembling a storm combo on a consistent basis using waste not is impossible. I'm confident such a deck would be worse than the dozen storm decks already out there, since it is neither fast nor consistent. Minimal testing should prove this to you.
Running cards to make the opponent draw cards without discarding them as part of the effect is bad. Legacy decks run instants and the potential for backfire is huge.
I would like to fit in a couple petals since it is good both early and late game, however I'm not sure the deck can tolerate a reduction in consistency.
I don't have any win percentages figured out. I tuned the list based on tests vs BUG Delver since I figured that's a challenging matchup. So I honestly don't know how good the deck really is.
I also took it to a small event:
0-2 vs dredge. Probably unwinnable G1 and I made too many mistakes post-board. Need to target yourself with coliseum in order to dig for yard hate.
0-2 vs BUG Delver. I was unable to resolve key spells and got mana-screwed.
2-0 vs RG lands. I thought I was going to get crushed but somehow managed to win both games. I made repeated mistakes but eventually removed all his win-cons G2. Repeal reads U: bounce marit lage and draw a card.
0-2 vs burn. Another potentially bad matchup G1. I lost G2 due to a bad judgment with cabal therapy. I should have named eidolon. Despite that it was actually very close. We played a third game for fun that I won by locking him out with chill.
Please post testing results!
Edit: one thing worth mentioning is that this deck doesn't need waste not since dream salvage will frequently draw 3 or more cards.
Yeah, my build really wasn't even a build. It's mostly theory and I haven't tested anything other than a couple hands. I'm really liking yours though. How is Empty the Pits working? Seems like there should be a "win now" combo. Sadly the tokens come into play tapped otherwise you could figure out a way to give them haste.
Like you mentioned earlier Waste Not is really not very great in traditional discard decks but it does work with cards like Wistful Thinking. That being said, another card that sucks in traditional discard but everyone still tries to run it is Liliana's Caress. For the same reason Waste Not works Liliana's Caress might work but as a win con. Maybe not though.
I agree about the win-con situation. Empty the pits has been fine but something to immediately win would be ideal. I just don't know of anything better. Zombies usually do swing for lethal the next turn at least and they enable therapy flashback if we're not getting zombies off of waste not (e.g. storm).
"Win now" combos are either storm-based or a two-card combo. I doubt trying to run something like a painter/grindstone or rip/helm combo would improve the deck.
I could maybe see running thopter combo.
Haunting echoes has a reasonable shot at a fast win and is only one card, which is why I mentioned it already. It loses to eldrazi like grindstone.
I hate to say this but liliana's caress might actually be worth testing. It doesn't really stand out as fast or consistent though.
There was a storm deck built to abuse dream salvage right after mystical tutor got banned. I'll post the list and what it looked like way back then but needless to say it ran a set of IGG and infernal tutors and the usual storm suspects.
This list is quite dated being from 6/29/2010. Doesn't have a sideboard but you would probably start with a green splash for abrupt decay, probably splash red for 1 past in flames just for a clean kill without a chant active, leyline of the void since leyline is mind twist if you resolve IGG with it in play and is good against graveyard strategies of course. Then probably some chain of vapors or something. Lots of places to go when constructing a storm sideboard in 15 slots.
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It looks and plays gooby as all heck but ive done some horribly unfair things to people. Most of my testing thus far has been against omnishow and that matchup looks good but I took som inspiration from enchantress here with a full lockdown with words of wind, words of waste and loreseekers stone. It's way grindier and wants to just generate value with waste not rather than get huge empty the pits out. Most of the time I won with either snapcaster beats alongside a few skeletons while they just couldnt hold on to any cards and anything they actually made stick either died to a liliana or words of wind to care of it. What do you take from this?
@Bread Connoisseur
Thank you, but the last thing I would try to do is try to invent a new storm deck. Maybe you misunderstood that I was saying storm cards are unplayable with this engine.
@Mugenkira
The engine you're trying to build is very convoluted. I think there are too many pieces and not enough early protection for this to be a competitive list. It looks like great fun for casual though
A storm deck around Waste Not? Here are some interesting things to consider.
Something like Iggy Pop--yes by playing Ill Gotten, you have a way to generate resources to abuse for further spells. Giving us access to zombies makes Culling the Weak a reasonable choice for deck construction. Dream Salvage seems like tech here, as it was with the Old Pop lists.
The problem is---without Waste Not the cards are actually just dead.
Liliana of the Veil would help out against Nimble Mongoose which seems like the original list's biggest Achilles Heel. Although I guess that would slant you towards 8rack or 5rack, neither of which are anything like what you've put together there.
Really nice job, btw, very original and it has the feel of a list that could go broken if you found the right mix.
Liliana of the Veil would help out against Nimble Mongoose which seems like the original list's biggest Achilles Heel. Although I guess that would slant you towards 8rack or 5rack, neither of which are anything like what you've put together there.
Really nice job, btw, very original and it has the feel of a list that could go broken if you found the right mix.
Thank you!
The list does have zombies and snapcaster to block a mongoose. RUG hasn't really been that common around me but if I had an infested meta I would probably add a couple innocent blood or smallpox. Or honestly just play pox at that point. TNN is worse since it becomes a race, but hopefully we can prevent thm from casting it..
Although I believe this deck may be compeitive I don't really have the time/desire to find the best mix because I have a lot of other decks I like. Despite that, I can try to help anyone interested in further development.
@RedKid43
If you like entomb and bloodghast, try out my list over on the walking dead thread in established.
Maybe something to use your lands with, so maybe Raven's crime could be interesting. Also if you play U you should look at Flux as well as Dark deal to use with Dream salvage. Recoil could be interesting for the deck as well.
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Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
Yeah, but it's really more "Disney Evil" than practical. It's like being a bond villain and giving a monologue rather then just shooting them.
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Raven's crime isn't good in the early game because the opponent chooses what to discard, and it's not good in the mid-to-late-game when the opponent's hand is empty.
Flux and dark deal are not playable. I can explain further if needed.
Recoil could be OK in place of some of the other bounce spells in my list.
I present to you a deck I created to make actual use of waste not, rather than trying to just stick it into a control deck with discard spells and failing.
4 dream salvage
3 empty the pits
4 dark ritual
3 cabal therapy
4 thoughtseize
2 hymn to tourach
3 wistful thinking
1 snapcaster mage
1 snap
2 repeal
2 echoing truth
4 brainstorm
1 ponder
2 gitaxian probe
4 underground sea
3 swamp
2 island
4 polluted delta
4 verdant catacombs
2 tombstalker
2 chill
1 the abyss
1 grafdigger's cage
2 extirpate
1 surgical extraction
1 tormod's crypt
1 null rod
2 toxic deluge
1 ensnaring bridge
1 pithing needle
The unique engine uses black discard, wistful thinking, and cephalid coliseum to gain card draw off of waste not and dream salvage. By targeting the opponent with coliseum and thinking, we get triggers even after the opponent is hellbent. This allows the deck to cast early discard before waste not and still get huge value from it later on, unlike other waste not decks I've seen.
I toyed around with a few different win-cons including the rack and even tendrils since the deck can generate a very high storm count later in the game but empty the pits seems to be the easiest and most consistent. In several games I've drawn almost the whole library. Haunting echoes I think may also be playable here.
Before you try goldfishing the deck, don't waste your time (no pun intended). The engine is too interactive.
I won't try to talk you into playing this deck or go on about how good it is, but it does compete with other Legacy decks. It's not going to break the format.
Feedback is welcome. Oh and it needs a cool name.
Peace
When designing the deck I had my eye on other discard spells including inquisition of kozilek, funeral charm, and blackmail. Each of these has advantages but likely aren't powerful enough to take one of the discard slots.
Other cards I've considered but not tested:
Anvil of bogardan may be playable since everything it does is relevant. I hate discarding a big pile at the end of turn.
Lore broker I like but may not be powerful enough. The looting effect on both players is good though.
In a casual deck I would definitely play wheel and deal because it's insane, but we cannot allow our opponent to play instants he draws.
Red may be a worthy splash for dack fayden. I don't think I would run burning inquiry because I'd like to maintain control of my own hand.
Putting waste not into a deck with a bunch of black discard spells is what most people seem to have been doing up to this point and it's the wrong idea.
EDIT: I actually do run Burning Inquiry and I actually really like it. It's so good for it's casting cost.
How is it testing for you? I'm going to proxy up your build and test it out you've got some really good card choices. Wistful Thinking looks nuts here! Can't wait to try it out.
Currently Playing:
Burning Reanimator
Eldrazi and Taxes
Bug Threshold
Enchantress
Dead Guy Ale
Combo Zombies
Pyromancer Pox
Running cards to make the opponent draw cards without discarding them as part of the effect is bad. Legacy decks run instants and the potential for backfire is huge.
I would like to fit in a couple petals since it is good both early and late game, however I'm not sure the deck can tolerate a reduction in consistency.
I don't have any win percentages figured out. I tuned the list based on tests vs BUG Delver since I figured that's a challenging matchup. So I honestly don't know how good the deck really is.
I also took it to a small event:
0-2 vs dredge. Probably unwinnable G1 and I made too many mistakes post-board. Need to target yourself with coliseum in order to dig for yard hate.
0-2 vs BUG Delver. I was unable to resolve key spells and got mana-screwed.
2-0 vs RG lands. I thought I was going to get crushed but somehow managed to win both games. I made repeated mistakes but eventually removed all his win-cons G2. Repeal reads U: bounce marit lage and draw a card.
0-2 vs burn. Another potentially bad matchup G1. I lost G2 due to a bad judgment with cabal therapy. I should have named eidolon. Despite that it was actually very close. We played a third game for fun that I won by locking him out with chill.
Please post testing results!
Edit: one thing worth mentioning is that this deck doesn't need waste not since dream salvage will frequently draw 3 or more cards.
Like you mentioned earlier Waste Not is really not very great in traditional discard decks but it does work with cards like Wistful Thinking. That being said, another card that sucks in traditional discard but everyone still tries to run it is Liliana's Caress. For the same reason Waste Not works Liliana's Caress might work but as a win con. Maybe not though.
Currently Playing:
Burning Reanimator
Eldrazi and Taxes
Bug Threshold
Enchantress
Dead Guy Ale
Combo Zombies
Pyromancer Pox
"Win now" combos are either storm-based or a two-card combo. I doubt trying to run something like a painter/grindstone or rip/helm combo would improve the deck.
I could maybe see running thopter combo.
Haunting echoes has a reasonable shot at a fast win and is only one card, which is why I mentioned it already. It loses to eldrazi like grindstone.
I hate to say this but liliana's caress might actually be worth testing. It doesn't really stand out as fast or consistent though.
Peace
4 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
New tech
4 Dream Salvage
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
Kill
1 Tendrils of Agony
More Artifact Mana
4 Lotus Petal
Defense slots
4 Orim's Chant
3 Silence
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
1 Island
1 Swamp
This list is quite dated being from 6/29/2010. Doesn't have a sideboard but you would probably start with a green splash for abrupt decay, probably splash red for 1 past in flames just for a clean kill without a chant active, leyline of the void since leyline is mind twist if you resolve IGG with it in play and is good against graveyard strategies of course. Then probably some chain of vapors or something. Lots of places to go when constructing a storm sideboard in 15 slots.
Currently Playing:
Retired
4 Dream Salvage
4 Dark Ritual
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Wistful Thinking
3 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
3 Words of Waste
4 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Words of Wind
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Loreseeker's Stone
It looks and plays gooby as all heck but ive done some horribly unfair things to people. Most of my testing thus far has been against omnishow and that matchup looks good but I took som inspiration from enchantress here with a full lockdown with words of wind, words of waste and loreseekers stone. It's way grindier and wants to just generate value with waste not rather than get huge empty the pits out. Most of the time I won with either snapcaster beats alongside a few skeletons while they just couldnt hold on to any cards and anything they actually made stick either died to a liliana or words of wind to care of it. What do you take from this?
Thank you, but the last thing I would try to do is try to invent a new storm deck. Maybe you misunderstood that I was saying storm cards are unplayable with this engine.
@Mugenkira
The engine you're trying to build is very convoluted. I think there are too many pieces and not enough early protection for this to be a competitive list. It looks like great fun for casual though
Something like Iggy Pop--yes by playing Ill Gotten, you have a way to generate resources to abuse for further spells. Giving us access to zombies makes Culling the Weak a reasonable choice for deck construction. Dream Salvage seems like tech here, as it was with the Old Pop lists.
The problem is---without Waste Not the cards are actually just dead.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
Really nice job, btw, very original and it has the feel of a list that could go broken if you found the right mix.
Thank you!
The list does have zombies and snapcaster to block a mongoose. RUG hasn't really been that common around me but if I had an infested meta I would probably add a couple innocent blood or smallpox. Or honestly just play pox at that point. TNN is worse since it becomes a race, but hopefully we can prevent thm from casting it..
Although I believe this deck may be compeitive I don't really have the time/desire to find the best mix because I have a lot of other decks I like. Despite that, I can try to help anyone interested in further development.
@RedKid43
If you like entomb and bloodghast, try out my list over on the walking dead thread in established.
Peace
"Well, then we will at least fight in the shadow"
"There is no glory to be gained in the kingdom of the dead!"
Post by Narah about unbanning Mind Twist in legacy and that this would be evil:
If you want to play on MTGO add me I'm HeskatetAS, playing Modern and Legacy
Flux and dark deal are not playable. I can explain further if needed.
Recoil could be OK in place of some of the other bounce spells in my list.
Peace