Because what I'm doing is new and different to the classic goblin build it was suggested that I should start a new thread on this then working on the older thread.
I'm looking for positive suggestions on this build. If you don't have anything good to say - please keep it to yourself!
I think the current goblin deck is too tribal and the control part of the build is too focused on Lackey. I know that others seemed to say it's not but locking up your lands with only a narrow outlet to play the cards seemed to suggest that all the weight of the deck is on Lackey.
I'm looking to minimize the number of creatures in the goblin deck. Narrow the casting cost and see if we can put the most on Lackey/Piledrivers.
I'm leaving my build out for the moment so I can find who wants to work with me on the design.
I think the problem with what you are proposing conceptually is that:
a) if you want to minimize the number of goblins in your deck, both Goblin Lackey and Piledriver would be under powered
b) if the power level of your Goblins are small, then Goblin Lackey is not scary as a threat
Given enough Goblins in your deck, Goblin Pilerdriver may have enough support. Goblin Pilerdriver, by the way, only really shines with either Goblin Warchief or Chieftain on the field, because you can catch your opponent off guard and go in for an alpha strike. As an attacker, it's actually quite poor due to the 2 toughness, as it is easily killed. In fact, against decks like DnT and Maverick, and even RUG, most players sideboard a number of Goblin Piledrivers out. If on draw against DnT or Maverick, it is even correct to take some numbers of Goblin Lackey out too (this actually goes against your point that Goblins being Lackey focused).
If you were to play Goblin Lackey, I think at minimum you should include some game-winning bombs, such as Siege-Gang Commander. Otherwise, the power level of Goblin Lackey is misused. You may even want to play Warren Instigator too.
Lastly, if you were to play Goblins as an aggro deck, Goblin Rabblemaster and Goblin Chieftains may be good additions if you ever consider upping your CMC limit.
@Staschy55 I agree with you. I actually never really liked the commonly played goblin builds. I call this archetype "Mainstream Goblins". It actually isn't the "classic" way to play goblins either. Not that it isn't a great deck, it's that it is too linear, I am bored with seeing everyone playing it and tire of having Magic snobs at the local tournaments try to give me advice on my weird rogue build as if it was my first time with the archetype. In fact the very first tournament I ever played (during the Ice Age block) of about 30 players I placed 2nd. This is when everyone was playing Ernageddon and Necro decks. I've been playing goblins for years. Though, I've played just about every build the basic design of my current build hasn't changed all that much and it is very competitive.
It appears that there are now these invisible axioms surrounding goblins and a very commonly agreed snobby approach to how goblin decks are to be built. It's actually one of my pet peeves. That being said, my approach is less reliant on Lackey and less combo-ish. It resembles the shell of both Burn and Goblins. The focus is on speed with some late game bombs in the event the game goes beyond turn four. It's redundant, effective and really really fast. Players are always surprised when they think they are safe at 9 life and I finish them off with a Goblin Grenade followed by a Fireblast. Btw, this is actually what a classic build would look like today. What's weird and what drew me to this thread is that my current build I also call "New Goblins" even though it's not all that new to me. Here's my list.
I'm not sure what you are actually asking here. Goblins is a tribal deck, and far from control. It does seek to play things via lackey and vial now so it can use its mana to slow down opponents. Even that change was far from inventing the wheel, but became necessary to compete.
Can you clarify what you are after because it sounds like you want goblins to be burn.
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@Staschy55 I agree with you. I actually never really liked the commonly played goblin builds. I call this archetype "Mainstream Goblins". It actually isn't the "classic" way to play goblins either. Not that it isn't a great deck, it's that it is too linear, I am bored with seeing everyone playing it and tire of having Magic snobs at the local tournaments try to give me advice on my weird rogue build as if it was my first time with the archetype. In fact the very first tournament I ever played (during the Ice Age block) of about 30 players I placed 2nd. This is when everyone was playing Ernageddon and Necro decks. I've been playing goblins for years. Though, I've played just about every build the basic design of my current build hasn't changed all that much and it is very competitive.
Sorry for a late reply...
lol I do remember Ernagoddon
Necro always had problem with fire and sligh.
I'd noticed a lot if based on mainstream or popularity. I'm not sure if it's netdecking on crack or that players tend to believe what's not broken dont need fixing, therefore they are playing what seemed to work for somebody else. The truth is, there is no lazy way in playing magic (Yeah, I consider all this netdecking lazy gaming)... On the other hand, is it really netdecking? I know the biggest issue about netdeck in the 1990's was based on players that had access to the internet vs those that were stuck reading inquest (which is 4 month old source material). So I don't believe in Netdecking as a major deckbuilding advantage as it was in the 1990's. On the other hand, it seemed that netdecking is what keeps the format stagnated. [When word was out that Survival of the Fittest gives you a 60% win advantage, a flood of players started to play Survival... Which forced wizards to banned the card.]
It appears that there are now these invisible axioms surrounding goblins and a very commonly agreed snobby approach to how goblin decks are to be built. It's actually one of my pet peeves.
Yes, I do agree and I find it annoying at times too.
That being said, my approach is less reliant on Lackey and less combo-ish. It resembles the shell of both Burn and Goblins. The focus is on speed with some late game bombs in the event the game goes beyond turn four. It's redundant, effective and really really fast. Players are always surprised when they think they are safe at 9 life and I finish them off with a Goblin Grenade followed by a Fireblast. Btw, this is actually what a classic build would look like today. What's weird and what drew me to this thread is that my current build I also call "New Goblins" even though it's not all that new to me. Here's my list.
Excellent. I think you will find that it is really fast. Often you get a turn three kill. My other list is similar but more about speed and burn. It is not better in the tournament scene but it is faster. It has less disruption by cutting Wastelands, Mogg Fanatic and Krenko for Tattermunge Maniac and a couple more finishers Goblin War Strike but it can out race some combo decks and it feels like more than 50% of the time you get a turn three kill. It runs 16 burn / finisher spells as to the previous 14.
I believe this Goblins deck minimizes the number of Goblins used, doesn't lean on Lackey, avoids tribal stuff, and avoids the "boring" conventional Vial Goblins (which is actually a very nonlinear deck if you understand all the angles and decision trees it can pull off, but anyway):
I was a little confused by what you meant about Goblins, but with fewer Goblins and less tribal. If you are willing to run lots of Goblins and tribal stuff, I think there is a fun Goblins aggro deck somewhere...
Since you are the aggro deck in most matchups, the idea is (like old Zoo) to board into either faster ways to finish people off (more burn) or free ways to interact with degenerate decks.
This is the build I have been testing. So far won against MUD, Goblins (normal), Esper Stoneblade, Dredge x3 (won 1 match on the draw without graveyard hate), Death and Taxes. Lost against Omni-Tell (Pyroblast to expensive on modo), ANT, Esper Stoneblade.
That my friend is a sick list!! This style of goblins is the fastest. I've out raced combo decks with my build. Often turn three kills. You should really try to squeeze in two Fireblasts. It's like running Goblin Grenade numbers 5 and 6. Maybe cut 2 land. Unless you choose to run Wasteland I feel you really only need 18 land and you are currently running 20. Also maybe swap up a couple of Fetchlands for 2 Barbarian Ring.
I've played my build which is very similar in large extremely competitive tournaments at Knightware in Los Angeles and have always done really well beating out a large number of $3000 decks like Show and Tell etc.. People are not prepared for getting hit with double Goblin Grenades.
It does have trouble with decks like Jund. Puninshing Fire is no fun. You also don't want to go up against Chalice of the Void. Try to gear your board against these and combo.
I didn't find Chalice of the Void to be a problem, Fireblast seemed awkward in my hand especially if only on two lands and 1 of them is a Cavern of Souls. I am definitely open to trying Wasteland as it's pretty good against lands.
Fireblast is a finisher. If you draw it in your first hand it basically reads "opponent begins the game at 16 life". You don't cast it until your opponent is at 4. It works nicely with Goblin Grenade when your opponent thinks they are safe because they have 9 life. It's also free to cast. You can literally tap out bolting and grenading your opponent and finish them off with it in the same turn. It's sooooooooooooooooo good here and really truly speeds up the clock. You don't want to draw two of them in the same hand so I recommend not running more than 2 main deck.
I also don't run 4 main deck Cavern of Souls. It is good but you can't cast non creature spells with it. Often you may run into situations where you really need to cast your burn spells and are limited. I personally would cut two and replace with 2 Mountains. This will also open you up to running Fireblast. I wouldn't worry too much about needing them to prevent your goblins from getting countered as the control match up is already in your favor.
Wasteland is always amazing but the deck is still very competitive without them.
You can see my main list in the posts above although I have another list focusing on mana disruption with Thorn of Amethyst and Wasteland. It runs zero instants/sorceries that are not creatures for maximum potential. This is a sweet deck but I don't like it as much as it lacks speed and you get no true burn and no finishers such as Fireblast and Goblin Grenade.
I did like the Barbarian Ring's so I think I might add 2. I want to keep the Cavern of Souls's at 4 because of the meta game around Toronto there is a lot of miracles decks and MUD decks running around. I got a good indicator that this thread is on track for something good when I beat a Burn deck in 2 and a Goblins deck in 2. Essentially what most of us have come up with is a Goblin Burn deck so being able to take down both Burn and Goblins makes me feel good about what this thread is coming up with. Now if only Wizards gave us an instant speed Goblin Grenade....
Have you thought anymore about adding Fireblast? At least run one maindeck. If you have to cut a Cavern of Souls or Barbarian Ring to have enough Mountains to support it I recommend making it happen. At least test it. It ends games. And it IS instant speed. It makes turn three kills possible as you can cast it while tapped out. One of the best cards for the deck. Like I said, test it.
The last tournament I played my build, my deck was the talk. Players were calling it "Super Fast Goblins". I didn't place top 8 but I did end up top 16 out of 70 or so players.
The list I played (which was posted several posts above) I've changed a bit. IMO, the correct list should look like as follows (slightly modified) sideboard heavily slanted against combo. The Belcher matchup is not fun.
I have thought about Fireblast and have been testing it online. It's only be useful to me once so far. I am just not sure I like it yet. I was actually thinking of trying out Atarka's Command.
Good call on Electrickry! Atarka's Command seems useful if you want to splash green. It also opens you up to a larger pool of sideboard options. It is slow though. Fireblast is so damn good. It always helps me end the game a turn earlier. I've actually been running the same burn package in my goblin deck since Visions came out and only changing the goblins as they got better.
You can get away with only running one Fireblast if you want. Maybe cut a Mogg War Marshal. I think I like Legion Loyalist better than Subterranean Scout for its casting cost and the fact that he has haste really adds a lot especially with a Piledriver in play. Sick deck btw!! You are certainly going to turn some heads at the tournament. It's a blazing fast deck!!!
Yeah, he's good. Maybe cut two Mogg War Marshal and add two Scouts? That might be better than cutting Legion Loyalist. That would still leave you with with 12 one drop creatures as you really need at least one in your opening hand.
Xoddy, I agree with you about Chrome Mox. The deck will gas out too early. About Mogg War Marshal, you might try cutting all of them for 3 Scout and 1 Fireblast. I really like Mogg War Marshal though and I have not tested Scout. He seems good though.
I've been looking to remaking my old goblin deck and I'm liking this style a lot.
What do you guys do about counter heavy decks? You guys usually pack a cavern of souls, but in my recent games non-basics would rarely go one or two turns without being wasted. Is this generally enough? My old goblin deck is mono-red using only wastelands, ports, and mountains, so wastelands were never a problem against me. Do you mulligan if you don't have a cavern against counter-heavy decks?
I've been considering using vexing shusher and summoning trap. The shusher is a 2 mana 2/2 that neuters a blue decks most powerful control arsenal, but he is a defensive creature, so would he slow the deck down too much? Summoning trap seems very appealing. Trade any countered creature for another creature. Is there too little to gain from having this in your deck versus something else?
Either way, I'm gonna start playing around with my decklists and see what I can come up with.
Dark Triumph hits *really* fast with Bushwacker and pushes up the number of T3 kills by a lot, and Bushwacker tends to be leagues better than Chieftain
I'm looking for positive suggestions on this build. If you don't have anything good to say - please keep it to yourself!
I think the current goblin deck is too tribal and the control part of the build is too focused on Lackey. I know that others seemed to say it's not but locking up your lands with only a narrow outlet to play the cards seemed to suggest that all the weight of the deck is on Lackey.
I'm looking to minimize the number of creatures in the goblin deck. Narrow the casting cost and see if we can put the most on Lackey/Piledrivers.
I'm leaving my build out for the moment so I can find who wants to work with me on the design.
Thanks
a) if you want to minimize the number of goblins in your deck, both Goblin Lackey and Piledriver would be under powered
b) if the power level of your Goblins are small, then Goblin Lackey is not scary as a threat
Given enough Goblins in your deck, Goblin Pilerdriver may have enough support. Goblin Pilerdriver, by the way, only really shines with either Goblin Warchief or Chieftain on the field, because you can catch your opponent off guard and go in for an alpha strike. As an attacker, it's actually quite poor due to the 2 toughness, as it is easily killed. In fact, against decks like DnT and Maverick, and even RUG, most players sideboard a number of Goblin Piledrivers out. If on draw against DnT or Maverick, it is even correct to take some numbers of Goblin Lackey out too (this actually goes against your point that Goblins being Lackey focused).
If you were to play Goblin Lackey, I think at minimum you should include some game-winning bombs, such as Siege-Gang Commander. Otherwise, the power level of Goblin Lackey is misused. You may even want to play Warren Instigator too.
Lastly, if you were to play Goblins as an aggro deck, Goblin Rabblemaster and Goblin Chieftains may be good additions if you ever consider upping your CMC limit.
It appears that there are now these invisible axioms surrounding goblins and a very commonly agreed snobby approach to how goblin decks are to be built. It's actually one of my pet peeves. That being said, my approach is less reliant on Lackey and less combo-ish. It resembles the shell of both Burn and Goblins. The focus is on speed with some late game bombs in the event the game goes beyond turn four. It's redundant, effective and really really fast. Players are always surprised when they think they are safe at 9 life and I finish them off with a Goblin Grenade followed by a Fireblast. Btw, this is actually what a classic build would look like today. What's weird and what drew me to this thread is that my current build I also call "New Goblins" even though it's not all that new to me. Here's my list.
4x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Guide
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
2x Goblin Rabblemaster
1x Krenko, Mob Boss
2x Legion Loyalist
2x Mogg Fanatic
3x Mogg War Marshal
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Goblin Grenade
2x Fireblast
Land: (20)
4x Wasteland
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Barbarian Ring
12x Mountain
1x Blood Moon
3x Goblin Sharpshooter
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Magus of the Moon
4x Red Elemental Blast
2x Tormod's Crypt
Currently Playing:
Burning Reanimator
Eldrazi and Taxes
Bug Threshold
Enchantress
Dead Guy Ale
Combo Zombies
Pyromancer Pox
Can you clarify what you are after because it sounds like you want goblins to be burn.
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Sorry for a late reply...
lol I do remember Ernagoddon
Necro always had problem with fire and sligh.
I'd noticed a lot if based on mainstream or popularity. I'm not sure if it's netdecking on crack or that players tend to believe what's not broken dont need fixing, therefore they are playing what seemed to work for somebody else. The truth is, there is no lazy way in playing magic (Yeah, I consider all this netdecking lazy gaming)... On the other hand, is it really netdecking? I know the biggest issue about netdeck in the 1990's was based on players that had access to the internet vs those that were stuck reading inquest (which is 4 month old source material). So I don't believe in Netdecking as a major deckbuilding advantage as it was in the 1990's. On the other hand, it seemed that netdecking is what keeps the format stagnated. [When word was out that Survival of the Fittest gives you a 60% win advantage, a flood of players started to play Survival... Which forced wizards to banned the card.]
Yes, I do agree and I find it annoying at times too.
Thanks, I'll take a look at the list
Currently Playing:
Burning Reanimator
Eldrazi and Taxes
Bug Threshold
Enchantress
Dead Guy Ale
Combo Zombies
Pyromancer Pox
4 Goblin Guide
//Spells: 36
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Searing Blaze
4 Price of Progress
4 Flame Rift
3 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Fireblast
2 Thunderous Wrath
4 Barbarian Ring
16 Mountain
It may not be what you are looking for though....
I was a little confused by what you meant about Goblins, but with fewer Goblins and less tribal. If you are willing to run lots of Goblins and tribal stuff, I think there is a fun Goblins aggro deck somewhere...
Ex:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Foundry Street Denizen
4 Legion Loyalist
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Piledriver
2 Stingscourger
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Krenko, Mob Boss
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Goblin Grenade
//Lands: 20
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Taiga
7 Mountain
4 Chain Lightning
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Confusion in the Ranks
2 Fireblast
3 Krosan Grip
Since you are the aggro deck in most matchups, the idea is (like old Zoo) to board into either faster ways to finish people off (more burn) or free ways to interact with degenerate decks.
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Legion Loyalist
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Mogg War Marshal
4x Goblin Rabblemaster
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Chain Lightning
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Goblin Grenade
2x Wooded Foothills
4x Cavern of Souls
10x Mountain
3x Tormod's Crypt
4x Pyroblast
1x Red Elemental Blast
4x Smash to Smithereens
3x Ensnaring Bridge
I've played my build which is very similar in large extremely competitive tournaments at Knightware in Los Angeles and have always done really well beating out a large number of $3000 decks like Show and Tell etc.. People are not prepared for getting hit with double Goblin Grenades.
It does have trouble with decks like Jund. Puninshing Fire is no fun. You also don't want to go up against Chalice of the Void. Try to gear your board against these and combo.
Currently Playing:
Burning Reanimator
Eldrazi and Taxes
Bug Threshold
Enchantress
Dead Guy Ale
Combo Zombies
Pyromancer Pox
I also don't run 4 main deck Cavern of Souls. It is good but you can't cast non creature spells with it. Often you may run into situations where you really need to cast your burn spells and are limited. I personally would cut two and replace with 2 Mountains. This will also open you up to running Fireblast. I wouldn't worry too much about needing them to prevent your goblins from getting countered as the control match up is already in your favor.
Wasteland is always amazing but the deck is still very competitive without them.
You can see my main list in the posts above although I have another list focusing on mana disruption with Thorn of Amethyst and Wasteland. It runs zero instants/sorceries that are not creatures for maximum potential. This is a sweet deck but I don't like it as much as it lacks speed and you get no true burn and no finishers such as Fireblast and Goblin Grenade.
EDIT: Couple of changes to my list below.
4x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Guide
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
2x Goblin Ringleader
1x Krenko, Mob Boss
4x Legion Loyalist
4x Mogg Fanatic
4x Mogg War Marshal
4x Thorn of Amethyst
Land (21)
3x Cavern of Souls
14x Mountain
4x Wasteland
Currently Playing:
Burning Reanimator
Eldrazi and Taxes
Bug Threshold
Enchantress
Dead Guy Ale
Combo Zombies
Pyromancer Pox
The last tournament I played my build, my deck was the talk. Players were calling it "Super Fast Goblins". I didn't place top 8 but I did end up top 16 out of 70 or so players.
The list I played (which was posted several posts above) I've changed a bit. IMO, the correct list should look like as follows (slightly modified) sideboard heavily slanted against combo. The Belcher matchup is not fun.
4x Goblin Chieftain
4x Goblin Guide
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver
4x Legion Loyalist
3x Mogg War Marshal
2x Goblin Rabblemaster
1x Krenko, Mob Boss
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Goblin Grenade
2x Fireblast
Land: (20)
4x Wasteland
2x Cavern of Souls
2x Barbarian Ring
12x Mountain
2x Eidolon of the Great Revel
3x Pyroclasm
4x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Red Elemental Blast
3x Tormod's Crypt
Currently Playing:
Burning Reanimator
Eldrazi and Taxes
Bug Threshold
Enchantress
Dead Guy Ale
Combo Zombies
Pyromancer Pox
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
4x Goblin Grenade
2x Fireblast
Currently Playing:
Burning Reanimator
Eldrazi and Taxes
Bug Threshold
Enchantress
Dead Guy Ale
Combo Zombies
Pyromancer Pox
Currently Playing:
Burning Reanimator
Eldrazi and Taxes
Bug Threshold
Enchantress
Dead Guy Ale
Combo Zombies
Pyromancer Pox
Currently Playing:
Burning Reanimator
Eldrazi and Taxes
Bug Threshold
Enchantress
Dead Guy Ale
Combo Zombies
Pyromancer Pox
Currently Playing:
Burning Reanimator
Eldrazi and Taxes
Bug Threshold
Enchantress
Dead Guy Ale
Combo Zombies
Pyromancer Pox
What do you guys do about counter heavy decks? You guys usually pack a cavern of souls, but in my recent games non-basics would rarely go one or two turns without being wasted. Is this generally enough? My old goblin deck is mono-red using only wastelands, ports, and mountains, so wastelands were never a problem against me. Do you mulligan if you don't have a cavern against counter-heavy decks?
I've been considering using vexing shusher and summoning trap. The shusher is a 2 mana 2/2 that neuters a blue decks most powerful control arsenal, but he is a defensive creature, so would he slow the deck down too much? Summoning trap seems very appealing. Trade any countered creature for another creature. Is there too little to gain from having this in your deck versus something else?
Either way, I'm gonna start playing around with my decklists and see what I can come up with.
Last.fm
3-4 Mogg War Marshal
-more efficient gobbos-
Dark Triumph hits *really* fast with Bushwacker and pushes up the number of T3 kills by a lot, and Bushwacker tends to be leagues better than Chieftain
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
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Fetch
Look