I have been working on designing my first serious tournament deck for a few days. Based on my research and previous playing experience, I have decided that my deck would be a WU control. However, it is untested and I am curious what more experienced players say about it. I will also give the pros of the deck and my worries about it. My main list is not with me, so I might be missing something obvious in my deck (I am writing this deck from memory).
Note: I am not including tundra because it is too expensive. If any of these cards are super expensive, please alert me.
Thank you for looking at my deck! Analysis is next post.
I believe he did given the Plows and Counterspells.
If this is intended for tournament play there are large sweeping issues with the deck.
- You have 4 cards @ 1 CMC
- You have 6 cards @ 2CMC
- You have 29 cards @ 3CMC and above
What this means is you essentially don't get into the game most of the time until T3+. I'd take your deck to a practice night or on cockatrice (or mtgo) and see how it performs and figure out why it is not anywhere near the power level that the tournament version of this format is about. If this is just for casual, you're in the wrong subforum.
I'd attempt to critique the deck but it's much easier to point you towards UW/x Miracle Control and have you read that. That deck is quite powerful in legacy and seeing it's balance of removal, cantrips, and finishers (including Entreat like you have) will help you get an idea of what it takes to get into the game early enough as a control deck that you get to play your 3+ drops.
Thank you very much for your advice. I looked further into miracle decks, and I see why they are powerful. However, I think that for now I would prefer the flexibility and therefore versatility of non-miracle control deck. I am interested, though, in ways I could bring up the number of cards in my deck with lower CMCs. I also looked up some control decks, and found that I could take out the Elspeth, render silent, and dissolve, and replace them with maybe 2-4 mana leak? Path to exile is also a low CMC card. Despite this, Alexander Hayne's WU control (at grand prix) only had nine cards with CMC <3. Thanks
The list I think you're referring to is in standard; which is much-much slower than Legacy. The biggest way to increase your ability to do things early are Sensei's Divining Top, Ponder/Preordain, and Brainstorm ( only if you start getting Fetch-lands.)
Spell Pierce is decent early game and if you're staying with a budget you probably won't find many more early game counters that are decent, Mana Leak is fine but the regular counterspell is probably better for your purposes.
Aside from cantrips, top, and cheap counters, I can really only point you to semi-budget options to allow yourself to survive long enough to hit spells you want to cast (of which I disagree with everything you have over 4 mana.)
-Semi budget options.-
Getting a set of stoneforge + equipment is ~$150 and would be a good replacement for a lot of your high mana cards. If you're on a super budget I'd probably look into cards like Jotun Grunt, Warden of the Beyond, and similar. Well costed beaters that are a little oversized.
You could instead go Enlightened Tutors with Rip/Helm combo (or even Painter's Servant) combo for ~$120 either way.
Once you've played a few games in legacy you'll figure out the cards you don't like/want to cut and you'll start getting a feel as to why. Without sounding mean, you're going to lose most of your games (let alone matches) for the next 6 months I imagine, but that's how you figure out the absolutely gargantuan landscape that is Legacy compared to the other formats. Each step of the way you'll find another card/combo/issue you have to answer and you'll shore up the deck a little bit and try again. Eventually you'll come up with something (if you stay in these colors) that looks like Miracles, Stoneblade, Patriot Delver, Esper Control or similar.
Best of luck on the journey!
EDIT: This is how it goes for most people who dive in, even on simple decks like Burn. Hence why newbs will often play burn (though some very experienced players will too), or dredge, or what have you. It's budget, it gets your feet wet, you see the cards people play and get a feel for the sequencing they'll be doing in regular games. You get countered at awkward times when you think you're safe, and by the time you transition to a "real" deck you'll have an idea of some of the things to play around, so the shock of "I'm losing every game!" is less abrupt and less likely.
Thank you Tescrin. My deck is built more for the slower paced standard, and I did not realize it. I like stoneforge combo. In addition, I like your ideas about early game card draw. Finally, in my research, I found a card called Council's Judgment. It seems like a good substitute for detention sphere? Below is a rewritten version of the deck; and is the one I will probably end up getting. My budget is medium; I don't know exactly how much my parents want to spend. Also, I was thinking that miracle decks allowed more flexibility than thought. Anyway, is this deck better (or more in the right direction)?
Beseech is super awkward for non-black (and even for black.) You can get a similar effect either by spamming cantrips or using the appropriate tutors (Enlightened Tutor, Merchant scroll, etc..)
Basically you'll be half miracles, half stoneblade.
I should point out that Sensei's Divining top is *horrid* in multiples and takes a lot of practice to get used to (because you have to get used to the complex decision trees that seeing 3 more cards per turn offer.) Further, because it's terrible in multiples most decks that run them will have lots of fetches not only to get utility out of shuffling the top 3, but because you can get rid of extras by shuffling them away using their draw function.
To do this I'd probably do something like:
-1 Sensei's divining top
-2 Island
+2 Ponder
+1 Preordain
As a control player I can tell you that 22 lands will be enough after tops and cantrips help you. Another option you can consider to help with controlling draws and getting rid of Tops is Dakra Mystic; who happens to be a nice equipment holder as well.
As a final note, your manabase will require some work over time to deal with all of these WW and UU costs, but as a non-miracles non-budget player I can't make a lot of suggestions other than mystic gate. I imagine in time you'll drop another councils (or all of them) simply for being difficult to kill. Oblivion Ring is a reasonable replacement and more helpful for Show and Tell MUs.
P.S. you'll probably have players fooled for awhile thinking you're a non-budget player and playing around Force of Will or expecting Jace.
You could always try something like Parfait if you're looking for a more affordable control deck, or if blue and white are your colors, a more tempo oriented UW Delver/Stoneforge deck could be relatively more affordable than going with miracles (essentially because no Jace). Something more like this one. This is legacy, so affordable is pretty relative. From what you're looking to play though, it seems like Miracles is the closest thing to up your alley.
I'd definitely recommend playing some games on cockatrice or lackey to try and get a feel for the decks, or to see how your brew will fare against well tuned developed decks. I like others think you will have a very challenging time casting your big spells (big being anything of more than 3 converted mana cost), like Frost Titan and Tamiyo.
If you want to stick to almost miracles maybe something like this?
Looking at the odds, I would rather have four Sensei's Diving Top, despite it being horrid in multiples, because four of a card gives a 50% chance of getting by turn 4, while with three copies my chance isn't 50/50 until turn 7 (I use a private tappedout.net deck for probability and stats). However, I see that most stoneblade only play 0-2 copies, but miracles play 4.
I'd drop the Jitte and SoFaF, and the other swords in the sideboard, you don't really have anything to carry them effectively. Also, this is going to sound funny but, I think you have too many win conditions. Batterskull, 3x Entreat and 2 Elspeth is quite a few for a deck that wants to durdle. You could try Portent in place of Preordain. It can setup a miracled Terminus all by itself, and is another shuffle effect which you'll want for getting rid of what you do not need with top. Without the fetchlands to shuffle for you, I think you want some mechanism for shuffling away chaff.
I'd also suggest moving this to the budget forum where you might get better advice other than to add $1,500 worth of land and Jace.
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Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
Portent looks good. I guess I can take out Elspeth and an entreat, along with the swords and jitte, but what should I put in their place? Thank you. I probably should have put it in budget; sorry. I just don't want to start a whole new thread. What do you suggest in place of the five cards coming out of the main deck, plus two cards in the sideboard?
You could always try playing Jace Beleren. He is a decent way to draw cards and cmc 3. I think if you are going to play Stoneforge Mystic, maybe 2 copies of True Name Nemesis would be ideal (and I dont think he is that expensive). The other option is Geist of St. Traft but I would think you would need Sword of X or Y to get him to push damage through, or Elspeth's "jump" ability. Only problem with playing swords for equipment is abrupt decay (so this may be where meddling mages would be stellar in the sideboard).
Thank you for suggestions. Jace Beleren is good, but is a lot of money for not an amazing card. I like the idea of Geist of Saint Traft with a sword or jitte and meddling mage in sideboard, though. Then:
So the issue there is as you add more creatures, your boardwipes hurt you as well. The point of boardwipes is to make the effect asymmetrical, causing a bigger problem for the opponent than you. If you want to play control, you'd be better off sticking non-creature threats that break symmetry (Batterskull, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Entreat the Angels) and probably leaning more toward a miracles like build. If you want to play a more aggressive creature based plan with Geist of Saint Traft, I'd look at the Delver/Stoneforge/Geist deck that I linked to earlier.
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Legacy: WRDeath and Taxes UWRMiracles UBTezzerator GTrinity GBWRLoam URLandstill
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
Brainstorm is bad without fetchlands (Ponder and Preordain are usually better). Brainstorm and Top lose much power at controlling your draws without the expensive fetches. Miracle spells and CounterTop get significantly weaker without Brainstorms and Jace and become less consistent without fetches to shuffle. Basically, I don't think a budget deck should be trying to play CounterTop Miracles. You just can't support the engine as well.
Playing UW control seems fine otherwise. You can get a lot of value out of Supreme Verdicts, Planeswalkers and bluffing Force of Will. Maybe you should try playing LandStill instead? No one plays it these days because Miracles is a better control deck for money players, but LandStill was always a staple UWx control build. Standstill is very strong with Planeswalkers and manlands out and opponents may be hesitant to crack it if they think you have Force of Will in hand!
That's just an example off the top of my head. You can tweak the number/distribution of planeswalkers, disruptive spell suite, sideboard, etc.. Basically you play counterspells, cantrips, spot removal, and mass removal as the control shell. The real power comes from using Standstill to lock opponent/draw cards while you can keep playing Magic by attacking with manlands or using planeswalker abilities. You also bluff having Force of Will like crazy. Post-board you can board into Misdirection (if you actually need a free counter) or board into Rest in Peace+Helm combo as an alternate win. Enlightened Tutor helps you find the combo or any toolbox answer cards, maybe worth maindeck consideration.
I have been working on designing my first serious tournament deck for a few days. Based on my research and previous playing experience, I have decided that my deck would be a WU control. However, it is untested and I am curious what more experienced players say about it. I will also give the pros of the deck and my worries about it. My main list is not with me, so I might be missing something obvious in my deck (I am writing this deck from memory).
2 Meddling Mage
1 Frost Titan
2 AEtherling
Enchantments
4 Detention Sphere
2 Martial Law
Artifacts
1 Akroma's Memorial
Spells
2 Dissipate
2 Dissolve
4 Counterspell
2 Render Silent
4 Beseech the Queen
2 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Glacial Fortress
8 Islands
8 Plains
Planeswalkers
3 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Circle of Protection: Red
3 Land Tax
3 Terminus
4 Propaganda
2 Swords to Plowshares
Note: I am not including tundra because it is too expensive. If any of these cards are super expensive, please alert me.
Thank you for looking at my deck! Analysis is next post.
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
If this is intended for tournament play there are large sweeping issues with the deck.
- You have 4 cards @ 1 CMC
- You have 6 cards @ 2CMC
- You have 29 cards @ 3CMC and above
What this means is you essentially don't get into the game most of the time until T3+. I'd take your deck to a practice night or on cockatrice (or mtgo) and see how it performs and figure out why it is not anywhere near the power level that the tournament version of this format is about. If this is just for casual, you're in the wrong subforum.
I'd attempt to critique the deck but it's much easier to point you towards UW/x Miracle Control and have you read that. That deck is quite powerful in legacy and seeing it's balance of removal, cantrips, and finishers (including Entreat like you have) will help you get an idea of what it takes to get into the game early enough as a control deck that you get to play your 3+ drops.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
Spell Pierce is decent early game and if you're staying with a budget you probably won't find many more early game counters that are decent, Mana Leak is fine but the regular counterspell is probably better for your purposes.
Aside from cantrips, top, and cheap counters, I can really only point you to semi-budget options to allow yourself to survive long enough to hit spells you want to cast (of which I disagree with everything you have over 4 mana.)
-Semi budget options.-
Getting a set of stoneforge + equipment is ~$150 and would be a good replacement for a lot of your high mana cards. If you're on a super budget I'd probably look into cards like Jotun Grunt, Warden of the Beyond, and similar. Well costed beaters that are a little oversized.
You could instead go Enlightened Tutors with Rip/Helm combo (or even Painter's Servant) combo for ~$120 either way.
Once you've played a few games in legacy you'll figure out the cards you don't like/want to cut and you'll start getting a feel as to why. Without sounding mean, you're going to lose most of your games (let alone matches) for the next 6 months I imagine, but that's how you figure out the absolutely gargantuan landscape that is Legacy compared to the other formats. Each step of the way you'll find another card/combo/issue you have to answer and you'll shore up the deck a little bit and try again. Eventually you'll come up with something (if you stay in these colors) that looks like Miracles, Stoneblade, Patriot Delver, Esper Control or similar.
Best of luck on the journey!
EDIT: This is how it goes for most people who dive in, even on simple decks like Burn. Hence why newbs will often play burn (though some very experienced players will too), or dredge, or what have you. It's budget, it gets your feet wet, you see the cards people play and get a feel for the sequencing they'll be doing in regular games. You get countered at awkward times when you think you're safe, and by the time you transition to a "real" deck you'll have an idea of some of the things to play around, so the shock of "I'm losing every game!" is less abrupt and less likely.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Frost Titan
Enchantments
4 Council's Judgment
Spells
4 Spell Pierce
4 Counterspell
2 Mana Leak
2 Beseech the Queen
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Lands
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Glacial Fortress
8 Islands
8 Plains
Planeswalkers
3 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
3 Rest in Peace
4 Terminus
4 Helm of Obedience
4 Propaganda
Then I'd drop:
-1 Spell Pierce
-2 Beseech the queen
-2 Council's Judgement
-3 Tamiyo
+3 Counterbalance
+2 Ponder
+2 Elspeth (or something.)
+1 Entreat
Beseech is super awkward for non-black (and even for black.) You can get a similar effect either by spamming cantrips or using the appropriate tutors (Enlightened Tutor, Merchant scroll, etc..)
Basically you'll be half miracles, half stoneblade.
I should point out that Sensei's Divining top is *horrid* in multiples and takes a lot of practice to get used to (because you have to get used to the complex decision trees that seeing 3 more cards per turn offer.) Further, because it's terrible in multiples most decks that run them will have lots of fetches not only to get utility out of shuffling the top 3, but because you can get rid of extras by shuffling them away using their draw function.
To do this I'd probably do something like:
-1 Sensei's divining top
-2 Island
+2 Ponder
+1 Preordain
As a control player I can tell you that 22 lands will be enough after tops and cantrips help you. Another option you can consider to help with controlling draws and getting rid of Tops is Dakra Mystic; who happens to be a nice equipment holder as well.
As a final note, your manabase will require some work over time to deal with all of these WW and UU costs, but as a non-miracles non-budget player I can't make a lot of suggestions other than mystic gate. I imagine in time you'll drop another councils (or all of them) simply for being difficult to kill. Oblivion Ring is a reasonable replacement and more helpful for Show and Tell MUs.
P.S. you'll probably have players fooled for awhile thinking you're a non-budget player and playing around Force of Will or expecting Jace.
Look, Fetch, Draw, Look
Draw
Fetch
Look
I'd definitely recommend playing some games on cockatrice or lackey to try and get a feel for the decks, or to see how your brew will fare against well tuned developed decks. I like others think you will have a very challenging time casting your big spells (big being anything of more than 3 converted mana cost), like Frost Titan and Tamiyo.
If you want to stick to almost miracles maybe something like this?
4 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Snapcaster Mage
Spells
2 Spell Pierce
2 Council's Judgment
2 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
Planeswalkers
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Lands
3 Seachrome Coast
3 Glacial Fortress
8 Islands
8 Plains
4 Rest in Peace
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Pithing Needle
2 Detention Sphere
3 Swan Song
1 Counterspell
2 Council's Judgement
It's a deep and interesting format, I hope you don't think we're trying to scare you away! It does take some time however.
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
Spells
3 Spell Pierce
4 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Portent
2 Ponder
4 Terminus
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
Lands
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Glacial Fortress
5 Islands
5 Plains
4 Mystic Gate
2 Rest in Peace
1 Batterskull
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Propaganda
2 Council's Judgement
2 Swan Song
Looking at the odds, I would rather have four Sensei's Diving Top, despite it being horrid in multiples, because four of a card gives a 50% chance of getting by turn 4, while with three copies my chance isn't 50/50 until turn 7 (I use a private tappedout.net deck for probability and stats). However, I see that most stoneblade only play 0-2 copies, but miracles play 4.
I'd also suggest moving this to the budget forum where you might get better advice other than to add $1,500 worth of land and Jace.
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
Spells
1 Spell Pierce
3 Counterspell
2 Misdirection
1 Spell Snare
3 Counterbalance
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Ponder
3 Preordain
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
Lands
2 Seachrome Coast
4 Glacial Fortress
5 Island
5 Plains
4 Mystic Gate
3 Reflecting Pool
2 Rest in Peace
1 Propaganda
2 Council's Judgment
2 Dakra Mystic
1 Energy Field
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Helm of Obedience
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Meddling Mage
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
Playing UW control seems fine otherwise. You can get a lot of value out of Supreme Verdicts, Planeswalkers and bluffing Force of Will. Maybe you should try playing LandStill instead? No one plays it these days because Miracles is a better control deck for money players, but LandStill was always a staple UWx control build. Standstill is very strong with Planeswalkers and manlands out and opponents may be hesitant to crack it if they think you have Force of Will in hand!
Sample budget decklist:
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Preordain
3 Ponder
4 Counterspell
2 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
2 Council's Judgment
2 Supreme Verdict
//Enchantments and Artifacts: 8
4 Standstill
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1 Gideon Jura
//Lands: 26
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dust Bowl
2 Tolaria West
2 Celestial Colonnade
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Glacial Fortress
2 Mystic Gate
3 Seachrome Coast
7 Island
4 Rest in Peace
2 Helm of Obedience
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Detention Sphere
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Misdirection
2 Pithing Needle
That's just an example off the top of my head. You can tweak the number/distribution of planeswalkers, disruptive spell suite, sideboard, etc.. Basically you play counterspells, cantrips, spot removal, and mass removal as the control shell. The real power comes from using Standstill to lock opponent/draw cards while you can keep playing Magic by attacking with manlands or using planeswalker abilities. You also bluff having Force of Will like crazy. Post-board you can board into Misdirection (if you actually need a free counter) or board into Rest in Peace+Helm combo as an alternate win. Enlightened Tutor helps you find the combo or any toolbox answer cards, maybe worth maindeck consideration.
1x Batterskull
4x Sensei's Divining Top
Lands
4x Flooded Strand
2x Glacial Fortress
2x Hallowed Fountain
6x Island
1x Mystic Gate
3x Plains
4x Polluted Delta
Instants
4x Brainstorm
3x Counterspell
2x Misdirection
2x Spell Pierce
4x Swords to Plowshares
2x Council's Judgment
3x Terminus
4x Ponder
2x Personal Tutor
2x Entreat the Angels
Enchantments
4x Counterbalance
Creatures
3x Stoneforge Mystic
1x Serenity
1x Back to Basics
1x Energy Field
2x Engineered Explosives
4x Enlightened Tutor
1x Helm of Obedience
2x Meddling Mage
1x Propaganda
2x Rest in Peace
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes
Modern: WUBValue Titan UMerfolk WGDeath and Taxes