Veteran Explorer is the ramping engine behind the deck and while it is supposed to be symmetrical due to the ability to have perfect mana in legacy due to true dual lands and access to all 10 fetches, there are a good amount of decks with little to no basics. Using this ramp we are able to cast cards, mainly planeswalkers, sooner and more frequently, than our opponent can answer them.
The deck utilizes the Gitaxian Probe + Cabal Therapy in order to disrupt the opponent's hand and as a way to kill Veteran Explorer in order to allow us to ramp, while also continuing to alleviate your opponent of those cumbersome cards in their hand.
Pernicious Deed is our main way of keeping the board cleared of those pesky creatures that decks play in order to win. Due to when the card was printed it does not hit Planeswalkers and even has the added benefit of not specifying non-land, so manlands, such as Mishra's Factory and Mutavault are able to be dealt with also.
The planeswalkers that we use are able to help clear the board, end the game, strip cards from hands, and be difficult to deal with and so we have Liliana of the Veil, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and my personal favorite, Karn Liberated. Jace and Liliana are found in several decks and are known power houses. Karn however, is not used very often outside of Gr Tron in Modern. Karn is in the unique place where he is able to clear the board, hand, and restart the game with any exiled permanents in play which is often enough to be too much for most decks to handle.
BUGSideboard OptionsBUG
The way I look at it the sideboard is where we have the room for the most changes and will be the key to winning against unfavorable matchups. Force of Will is necessary, we have no other way to deal with combo deck's like Belcher and Flusterstorm is the best card we have access to that stops a storm combo. Personally I'd hedge my bets with these cards and have 4 and 2 respectively.
After that the Surgical Extraction helps with problem cards, such as planeswalkers and combo pieces. We also have the option of either paying the life or the black mana which is particularly useful against aggressive decks such as Burn and Merfolk.
Notion Thief is a particularly iffy choice in my opinion and could easily be something else, such as Abrupt Decay, which I feel is a much better choice.
Ensnaring Bridge is are bring in for creature heavy decks, such as Death and Taxes and stops Show and Tell decks from dropping an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and attacking.
Spell Pierce and Swan Song are value counterspells and with our ramping ability it's easy to leave a blue source open. These could be different spells but I think we need more counterspells, particularly since we lack any in the main deck.
BUGMatch UpsBUG
I haven't played enough games with the deck to be able to properly provide a breakdown and specific strategies or anything more than vague musings at this point and welcome any and all thoughts.
Dredge
This match seems like it could be done but playing it is just awkward. So far I’ve only played against the manaless version and I’ve lost every single time. Now this very easily could be because I’m not sure how to approach the match up but the only way we have to interact with the graveyard is surgical extraction and it doesn’t seem powerful enough for a deck that works solely through the graveyard. Ashiok can do some work but you need to get lucky and hit their flayer of the hatebound. The Vendilion Cliques can be brought in to help legend rule the other to death to get rid of the bridges and the innocent bloods and cabal therapy flashbacks help kill a creature also, unfortunately even bringing in 2 Cliques and a Notion Thief there isn't a high enough creature density to make that easily accomplished.
Miracles
This so far has been roughly 50/50 depending on the draws. If we’re able to open with a gitaxian probecabal therapy turn 1 and then drop an explorer and flash the therapy back and follow that up with a Liliana of the Veil without them stopping you it’s almost guaranteed to win the game from there. If that rare occurrence doesn't happen because we’re not in magical Christmas land, it’s all about getting a deed down to keep the field clean of angels and germ tokens. After the sideboard we can bring in some cliques and counterspells, and I usually take out the explorers since miracles often has basics of their own and you don’t want to accelerate them also if you can help it.
New idea, apparently someone spoke to McDarby about the deck and he wants to add red back into the deck for Pyroblast's and Red Elemental Blast. In response to this I will be adapting the Punishing Fire list to attempt to incorporate this thought process and will add results once I settle on a list.
I haven't tested this deck out yet, but I like the suggested inclusion of Abrupt Decay in the sideboard: It answers a lot of problems, including Liliana of the Veil (which by David McDarby's admission, this deck is soft to). I think there could also be an argument for the inclusion of a Maelstrom Pulse as this can potentially answer a Jace (the only answer at the moment are the Karns, which look a bit slow to me). Swan Song looks good (in fact, I prefer it to Flusterstorm against Storm), but Spell Pierce looks bad to me in a deck that can also ramp the opponent and I presume that's way David McDarby was running a singleton Negate in the side. I think this could be the best choice: Spell Snare looks a bit narrow and it's lower cost is probably irrelevant in a deck that looks to make 4 lands by T2, while Counterspell's UU cost could be awkward at some junctures in a 3-colour deck and countering creatures is probably less relevant in a deck that already has a lot of answers to them.
I must admit I liked the idea behind the red list and I think the idea of adding the red back in for the red blasts and P-Fire combo may be a good idea (more counters and answers to Jace/ Lili), though a fourth colour may prove to be too ambitious and may lead to more mulligans/ getting colour-screwed. Also, I'd definitely vote for the second Karn over the Nicol Bolas: The latter's mana cost looks significantly more difficult and he doesn't really do anything that the other walkers can't already accomplish.
Is there an argument for running some counter magic (or Decays?) in the main ahead of, say, the Hymns?
I agree with almost everything that you went over. The only flex spots I feel the deck really has are the 3 Hymn to Tourach in the main and maybe one of the walkers (Karn or a Jace). That being said, I just updated My list to reflect some changes to include Red for pyroblast and main deck Force of Will also. I will be running this exact list in the Tournament practice room and hopefully tomorrow morning in the daily, pending any changes and that my schedule is able to accommodate that.
the only part I'm not a fan of is the Punishing Fires. I don't feel that the groves are reliable enough and the punishing fire is thus made inefficient because of that. The maelstrom pulse I could see trying out but I feel Abrupt decay will hit the same problem permanents anyway.
The last weekend I played the version with Nicol Bolas and puunishing fire. I draw the first raound against Miracles, The second and third rounds I won easly, The fourth round against team America I think I keep bad hands and I loose. In the last Round I lost vs Marit Lage token.
I think the deck need some instant answers like bouncers, or more counters. By the way Punishing fire really deals with opponent planeswalkers
this deck looks like so much fun but this decks 1 and only win condition is jace... is that enough? i feel like even miracles plays jace with entreat the angels also right?
Yeah, the issue is that I think he should be cast (not countered) and stay alive. Nowadays there are more tools to get rid of planeswalker than before, I think it's not that reliable to trust jace to win the game. There's also Karn, but he should stay alive until he uses his ultimate
I think manlands would be really great here, but they need to be colored-mana-lands like creeping tarpit or faerie conclave, I dont rely in a 3-color deck with mishra's factory or mutavault. Theres also a green manland which becomes a 3/3 trample for 1G, I just don't remember it's name. I guess those would be cool choises, as nowadays a lot of decks take about 3-6 damage from themselves with fetchlands, thoughtseize, probe, etc.
is there another primer or forum or whatever for this deck or one similar to it? I would really like to figure out where to go from here, anyone have any ideas?
Dredge
This match seems like it could be done but playing it is just awkward. So far I’ve only played against the manaless version and I’ve lost every single time. Now this very easily could be because I’m not sure how to approach the match up but the only way we have to interact with the graveyard is surgical extraction and it doesn’t seem powerful enough for a deck that works solely through the graveyard. Ashiok can do some work but you need to get lucky and hit their flayer of the hatebound. The Vendilion Cliques can be brought in to help legend rule the other to death to get rid of the bridges and the innocent bloods and cabal therapy flashbacks help kill a creature also, unfortunately even bringing in 2 Cliques and a Notion Thief there isn't a high enough creature density to make that easily accomplished.
I haven't made that match yet, but I guess the real chances are stablishing a pernicious deed and having enough mana to blow it and also sacrificing your creatures to get rid of the bridge
I've played this deck against affinity and surprisingly it did well (2-1 the first matches), but it was something like hold on for the 4 first turn and blowing everything with pernicious deed (it's really beyond optimal since it blows all the artifact lands)
I've played against Bant Stoneblade, and it did average, about 50-50%
I guess it's really a good idea, I think we should discuss more about the matches and details of the deck to optimize it. I think it really may perform as a tier1 deck!
here is my deck list, I dont have all the duals or the correct fetches, but i have been getting by with this setup. I got blown out by shardless bug; the card advantage is crazy and he plays hymns and abrupt decays which is very difficult to deal with. I took on an america deck pretty easily, that deck doesnt have enough threats for our massive amount of control. Maverick deck was a little more annoying, but as soon as you resolve one deed with a planeswalker out ur pretty much set. I know the vraska is a little weird but has been super useful as a karn wannabe for less mana and the ashiok is really just for fun to have even more planeswalkers ha ha. Well let me know if you guys have any ideas or help or any insight on playing this style of deck.
I've added some of the new tangos instead of the old duals. But I also added a tabernacle at pendrell vale. Was also thinking of adding one petrified field in case it gets wastelanded.
I feel like Oath of Nissa may be very helpful in this deck. It should hit more often than not, as well as make it easier to cast the Walkers. It would also give us the ability to play Walkers outside our colors. I can already see myself having an Ajani Vengeant in the side for Miracles. Ugin would be a nice addition to this deck as well. Maybe Nahiri for removal of pesky artifacts and enchantments. What does everyone else think?
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Veteran Explorer is the ramping engine behind the deck and while it is supposed to be symmetrical due to the ability to have perfect mana in legacy due to true dual lands and access to all 10 fetches, there are a good amount of decks with little to no basics. Using this ramp we are able to cast cards, mainly planeswalkers, sooner and more frequently, than our opponent can answer them.
The deck utilizes the Gitaxian Probe + Cabal Therapy in order to disrupt the opponent's hand and as a way to kill Veteran Explorer in order to allow us to ramp, while also continuing to alleviate your opponent of those cumbersome cards in their hand.
Pernicious Deed is our main way of keeping the board cleared of those pesky creatures that decks play in order to win. Due to when the card was printed it does not hit Planeswalkers and even has the added benefit of not specifying non-land, so manlands, such as Mishra's Factory and Mutavault are able to be dealt with also.
The planeswalkers that we use are able to help clear the board, end the game, strip cards from hands, and be difficult to deal with and so we have Liliana of the Veil, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and my personal favorite, Karn Liberated. Jace and Liliana are found in several decks and are known power houses. Karn however, is not used very often outside of Gr Tron in Modern. Karn is in the unique place where he is able to clear the board, hand, and restart the game with any exiled permanents in play which is often enough to be too much for most decks to handle.
BUGSideboard OptionsBUG
The way I look at it the sideboard is where we have the room for the most changes and will be the key to winning against unfavorable matchups. Force of Will is necessary, we have no other way to deal with combo deck's like Belcher and Flusterstorm is the best card we have access to that stops a storm combo. Personally I'd hedge my bets with these cards and have 4 and 2 respectively.
After that the Surgical Extraction helps with problem cards, such as planeswalkers and combo pieces. We also have the option of either paying the life or the black mana which is particularly useful against aggressive decks such as Burn and Merfolk.
Notion Thief is a particularly iffy choice in my opinion and could easily be something else, such as Abrupt Decay, which I feel is a much better choice.
Ensnaring Bridge is are bring in for creature heavy decks, such as Death and Taxes and stops Show and Tell decks from dropping an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn and attacking.
Spell Pierce and Swan Song are value counterspells and with our ramping ability it's easy to leave a blue source open. These could be different spells but I think we need more counterspells, particularly since we lack any in the main deck.
BUGMatch UpsBUG
I haven't played enough games with the deck to be able to properly provide a breakdown and specific strategies or anything more than vague musings at this point and welcome any and all thoughts.
Dredge
This match seems like it could be done but playing it is just awkward. So far I’ve only played against the manaless version and I’ve lost every single time. Now this very easily could be because I’m not sure how to approach the match up but the only way we have to interact with the graveyard is surgical extraction and it doesn’t seem powerful enough for a deck that works solely through the graveyard. Ashiok can do some work but you need to get lucky and hit their flayer of the hatebound. The Vendilion Cliques can be brought in to help legend rule the other to death to get rid of the bridges and the innocent bloods and cabal therapy flashbacks help kill a creature also, unfortunately even bringing in 2 Cliques and a Notion Thief there isn't a high enough creature density to make that easily accomplished.
Miracles
This so far has been roughly 50/50 depending on the draws. If we’re able to open with a gitaxian probe cabal therapy turn 1 and then drop an explorer and flash the therapy back and follow that up with a Liliana of the Veil without them stopping you it’s almost guaranteed to win the game from there. If that rare occurrence doesn't happen because we’re not in magical Christmas land, it’s all about getting a deed down to keep the field clean of angels and germ tokens. After the sideboard we can bring in some cliques and counterspells, and I usually take out the explorers since miracles often has basics of their own and you don’t want to accelerate them also if you can help it.
1 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer
Land(22)
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Island
1 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Karn Liberated
Enchantment(4)
4 Pernicious Deed
Sorcery(16)
4 Innocent Blood
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ponder
Instant(4)
4 Brainstorm
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Force of Will
3 Swan Song
2 Notion Thief
1 Flusterstorm
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Spell Pierce
A video Deck Tech at the latest Starcity event in Knoxville with David McDarby can be found here, with a slightly different sideboard.
Another version of the list, which includes red and a Punishing Fire package can be found here.
Some playtesting videos found here.
1 Baleful Strix
4 Veteran Explorer
Land(22)
2 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Snow-Covered Island
1 Snow-Covered Forest
3 Snow-Covered Swamp
1 Snow-Covered Mountain
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Karn Liberated
Enchantment(4)
4 Pernicious Deed
Sorcery(13)
4 Innocent Blood
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Ponder
Instant(7)
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Notion Thief
2 Flusterstorm
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Plague
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
New idea, apparently someone spoke to McDarby about the deck and he wants to add red back into the deck for Pyroblast's and Red Elemental Blast. In response to this I will be adapting the Punishing Fire list to attempt to incorporate this thought process and will add results once I settle on a list.
UWR MiraclesUWR
Veteran WalkerBUG
Lands RUG
Karn
I agree with almost everything that you went over. The only flex spots I feel the deck really has are the 3 Hymn to Tourach in the main and maybe one of the walkers (Karn or a Jace). That being said, I just updated My list to reflect some changes to include Red for pyroblast and main deck Force of Will also. I will be running this exact list in the Tournament practice room and hopefully tomorrow morning in the daily, pending any changes and that my schedule is able to accommodate that.
the only part I'm not a fan of is the Punishing Fires. I don't feel that the groves are reliable enough and the punishing fire is thus made inefficient because of that. The maelstrom pulse I could see trying out but I feel Abrupt decay will hit the same problem permanents anyway.
UWR MiraclesUWR
Veteran WalkerBUG
Lands RUG
Karn
I think the deck need some instant answers like bouncers, or more counters. By the way Punishing fire really deals with opponent planeswalkers
I think manlands would be really great here, but they need to be colored-mana-lands like creeping tarpit or faerie conclave, I dont rely in a 3-color deck with mishra's factory or mutavault. Theres also a green manland which becomes a 3/3 trample for 1G, I just don't remember it's name. I guess those would be cool choises, as nowadays a lot of decks take about 3-6 damage from themselves with fetchlands, thoughtseize, probe, etc.
I haven't made that match yet, but I guess the real chances are stablishing a pernicious deed and having enough mana to blow it and also sacrificing your creatures to get rid of the bridge
I've played this deck against affinity and surprisingly it did well (2-1 the first matches), but it was something like hold on for the 4 first turn and blowing everything with pernicious deed (it's really beyond optimal since it blows all the artifact lands)
I've played against Bant Stoneblade, and it did average, about 50-50%
I guess it's really a good idea, I think we should discuss more about the matches and details of the deck to optimize it. I think it really may perform as a tier1 deck!
// Lands
2 Bayou
2 Flooded Strand
2 Forest
2 Island
2 Marsh Flats
2 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Watery Grave
// Creatures
4 Veteran Explorer
// Spells
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Garruk Relentless
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Innocent Blood
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Karn Liberated
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Pernicious Deed
1 Vraska the Unseen