The challenge here is to make a crazy combo (Lich/Mirror Universe) viable in Legacy.
This will never win a tournament, but the objective is to win some games with something original (may I even venture "bold"..?)
The land base is what I have/can afford. Of course 4 Scrubland would be better, but let's think "limited budget" here.
This assumes a Legacy-"meta" where:
- Wasteland are not always 4-a-deck
- Enchantment destruction is a rarity
which may or maybe not be the case in your area.
The whole thing is just a prototype right now, criticisms and suggestions welcomed.
Especially if you think of an helpful card I haven't considered yet.
Thx!
(And yes, I know that you can't "pay 2 life" for Godless Shrine once Lich is in)
The Lich deck I used to play was based on maro. Junk maro-gyser was sweet to play when I did, but it does lead me to believe you may experience the same problems I did. The deck is slow and tends to have a lot of awkward costed spells. That said it's hard to go wrong with discard to protect the combo. I think you should find space for thoughtseize/duress.
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Easily made better. The next issue is going to be focus. Lich/mirror universe is extremly bad and requires at least a turn for 2 pieces to survive. Ideally you will want ways to gain life since that is what makes Lich potentially powerful. It's also key to be able to do that at instant speed in some way, but only because you will be taxing your mana... Actually, rather then start to ramble I'll just think of a tenative list.
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Ok, this was off my head so hopefully it's 60 cards. But it should give you some ideas. You'll also notice that there is the ability to become untouchable here so Lich can work extra hard fueling an army.
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Great, thanks!
I ran some of those cards in my edh Lich deck, so I see the pattern.
Now I guess actual playtesting will decide which pattern comes out fast enough and protected enough.
I thought Delaying shield was better then Solitary confinement, but that takes care of burn decks also.
I'll sleep on this and give this version a try!
Might have to add my Diamond Valley in, so I can sac my Academy rector, I'm afraid they will not be blocked in the early turns.... and miss on Cabal Therapy in the opening hand.
Academy rector is a way for you to not be attacked. You will find people avoid killing rectors if they can. The key to therapy is just to name cards that will prevent you from doing what you need to if you are forced to blindly name something.
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i wouldn't focus that much on graveyard if it's just to throw stuff in the graveyard. Could be an alternative winning con on paper but must of the time you won't make a race against a tarmogoyf and a Deathrite those a *****ty 2/2 i played Zombardement for a while and i can say that even with the CA you're making with faitless loothing, it wasn't enough... so maybe you should reconsider this heavy graveyard build, because if you want to play it graveyard heavy play dredge in both scenarios you're gonna get hated the same way.
Maybe you should consider splashing green Ground seal seems to be good against deathrite shaman and play innocent blood just to have an other kill for Academy rector. But there is still the abrupt decay problem. But if you have some discard maybe you can keep it on board. Maybe playing green can also gives you the possibility to play nourishing shoal like the old nefarious lich deck, and also overgrown estate but those are just idea thrown randomly.
But for me playing with graveyard is a waste of space.
Yeah, I guess I prefer the Thoughtseize/Holy Day way to get through my combo.
Although the zombie stuff surely works on its own, it's another deck.
I guess I'll try to get the Lich out with Academy Rector and the Mirror out with Copper Gnomes.
...as I said to start the thread, I just expect to win a game here and there, but THOSE will surely be sweet!
Thanks for all the great comments. Now I guess I have to playtest the thing.
So we are I clear, I suggested gravecrawler and bloodghast as answers to your own Lich. They will allow you to put Lich into play before you are ready to combo. They also can act as fodder for flashback therapy. It's also worth noting that what I posted is far from a dedicated graveyard strategy and DRS is easily played around.
Fog is going to be a bad card regardless of name. Decks have become very versatile to the point of the combat step being "ignored." If you are intent of playing it still then play it in the side board.
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Academy rector, phyrexian unlife, form of the dragon.
Let me explain. Form sets your life to five always. Phyrexian unlife only gives sources infect if you already have less than 0 life. You get swung at, damage is dealt simultaneously, all those source then gain infect. Turn passes, your life goes to five and you chunk your opponent for five to the dome. I think this is a more reasonable way build around this type of effects. Lich is awesome, dont get me wrong, but this is a lock and a wincon.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Academy rector, phyrexian unlife, form of the dragon.
Let me explain. Form sets your life to five always. Phyrexian unlife only gives sources infect if you already have less than 0 life. You get swung at, damage is dealt simultaneously, all those source then gain infect. Turn passes, your life goes to five and you chunk your opponent for five to the dome. I think this is a more reasonable way build around this type of effects. Lich is awesome, dont get me wrong, but this is a lock and a wincon.
I will add one copy of each to the original deck, that makes an great alternative wincon for the 2nd, 3rd game.
Modern: UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy: UWBMiracles
Edh: UUUThassa Control WWWHokori Stax GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy BBBGriselbrand French List RBGShattergang(Super Villians) RWGHazezon Flicker UBRMarchesa Aggro URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
Hello again!
I've done my homework and played my deck extensively on MTGO for 6 weeks.
Here is the philosophy:
Disrupt opponent's hand with Thoughtseize, Orim's Chant and Tidehollow Scullers and try to achieve one of those three winning combos:
1) Sacrifice Academy Rector into Diabolic Intent and put Omniscience and Enter the infinite on the table. (play all the TideHollw Scullers before to clear the way). Instant win with Lich and Repay in Kind.
2) Play Lich (with Academy rector) + Mirror Universe (with Copper Gnomes)
3) Go the hard way: play Blightsteel Colossus (tutored the turn before) with Copper Gnomes.
The most interesting Lich decks I've seen are those that run Nourishing Shoal + Autochthon Wurm. Pitch a wurm to the Shoal to gain 14 life, which draws you a huge chunk of your deck and likely allows you to repeat the process. If you run enough Ritual effects in your deck, you can manage this pretty early and probably draw into the mana to cast Repay in Kind and win.
This is worth a look, but testing the opening hand of that deck in Tappedout, I see that you have the Wurm-Shoal-Lich-Repay combo by turn 1 less than half the time.. and then this is getting very chancy.
My deck is more cumbersome, but I always have the parts of one of my 3 combos by turn 3, unless I'm heavily disturbed by Pox or counterspells.
THAT said, I have all the pieces of your Wurm idea, except for a couple of chrome Mox and the Wurms, so I'll definitively try to run it!
This will never win a tournament, but the objective is to win some games with something original (may I even venture "bold"..?)
Apart from the combo, you have a somewhat fast/versatile landbase, some Lich side-effect protection (Holy Day, Darkness, Delaying Shield), a bit of protection (Mana Tithe, Greater Auramancy and Tidehollow Sculler), some Tutors and an alternative win condition (Death's Shadow).
The land base is what I have/can afford. Of course 4 Scrubland would be better, but let's think "limited budget" here.
This assumes a Legacy-"meta" where:
- Wasteland are not always 4-a-deck
- Enchantment destruction is a rarity
which may or maybe not be the case in your area.
Repay in Kind and Copper Gnomes are alternative combo enablers in the sidedeck
The whole thing is just a prototype right now, criticisms and suggestions welcomed.
Especially if you think of an helpful card I haven't considered yet.
Thx!
(And yes, I know that you can't "pay 2 life" for Godless Shrine once Lich is in)
2x City of Traitors
4x Crystal Vein
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
2x Scrubland
1x Swamp
The combo + enablers
4x Lich
4x Mirror Universe
2x Death's Shadow
4x Dark Ritual
2x Lotus Petal
3x Darkness
2x Delaying Shield
1x Greater Auramancy
3x Holy Day
3x Mana Tithe
2x Tidehollow Sculler
Draw/Tutors
2x Cremate
2x Cruel Tutor
2x Dark Confidant
2x Rhystic tutor
2x Copper Gnomes
3x Pithing Needle
2x Repay in kind
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Wasteland
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Good point, that's why I went with the Scullers, so maybe this would be better:
2x City of Traitors
4x Crystal Vein
4x Gemstone Mine
4x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
2x Scrubland
1x Swamp
The combo + enablers
4x Lich
4x Mirror Universe
2x Death's Shadow
4x Dark Ritual
2x Lotus Petal
3x Darkness
2x Delaying Shield
1x Greater Auramancy
3x Holy Day
1x Mana Tithe
2x Tidehollow Sculler
Draw/Tutors
2x Cruel Tutor
2x Dark Confidant
Discard
3x Duress
3x Thoughtseize
2x Copper Gnomes
3x Pithing Needle
2x Repay in kind
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Wasteland
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
4 cabal therapy
4 gerrards verdict
4 enlightened tutor
2 Lich
2 mirror universe
4 gravecrawler
4 bloodghast
4 life burst
1 zuran orb
1 ivory tower
1 ghostly prison
1 solitary confinement
1 greater auramancy
1 zombie infestation
4 scrubland
4 lotus petal
4 Crystal vein
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
1 swamp
4 plains
Ok, this was off my head so hopefully it's 60 cards. But it should give you some ideas. You'll also notice that there is the ability to become untouchable here so Lich can work extra hard fueling an army.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I ran some of those cards in my edh Lich deck, so I see the pattern.
Now I guess actual playtesting will decide which pattern comes out fast enough and protected enough.
I thought Delaying shield was better then Solitary confinement, but that takes care of burn decks also.
I'll sleep on this and give this version a try!
Might have to add my Diamond Valley in, so I can sac my Academy rector, I'm afraid they will not be blocked in the early turns.... and miss on Cabal Therapy in the opening hand.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Maybe you should consider splashing green Ground seal seems to be good against deathrite shaman and play innocent blood just to have an other kill for Academy rector. But there is still the abrupt decay problem. But if you have some discard maybe you can keep it on board. Maybe playing green can also gives you the possibility to play nourishing shoal like the old nefarious lich deck, and also overgrown estate but those are just idea thrown randomly.
But for me playing with graveyard is a waste of space.
Although the zombie stuff surely works on its own, it's another deck.
I guess I'll try to get the Lich out with Academy Rector and the Mirror out with Copper Gnomes.
...as I said to start the thread, I just expect to win a game here and there, but THOSE will surely be sweet!
Thanks for all the great comments. Now I guess I have to playtest the thing.
Fog is going to be a bad card regardless of name. Decks have become very versatile to the point of the combat step being "ignored." If you are intent of playing it still then play it in the side board.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
How about this:
2x City of Traitors
4x Crystal Vein
4x Gemstone Mine
2x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
2x Scrubland
1x Swamp
1x Diamond Valley
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
The combo + enablers
2x Lich
2x Mirror Universe
1x Death's Shadow
4x Dark Ritual
3x Enlightened Tutor
4x Academy Rector
1x Copper Gnomes
1x Repay in Kind
2x Lotus Petal
3x TideHollow Sculler
3x Gravecrawler
1x Delaying Shield
1x Greater Auramancy
1x Mana Tithe
Draw/Tutors
1x Dark Confidant
2x Diabolic Intent
2x Life Burst
Discard
4x Cabal Therapy
Sidedeck (the usual anti-grave, anti-combo stuff)
4x Pithing Needle
3x Rest in Peace
2x Surgical Extraction
3x Relic of Progenitus
3x Wasteland
I don't understand why you would play any less then 4.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Let me explain. Form sets your life to five always. Phyrexian unlife only gives sources infect if you already have less than 0 life. You get swung at, damage is dealt simultaneously, all those source then gain infect. Turn passes, your life goes to five and you chunk your opponent for five to the dome. I think this is a more reasonable way build around this type of effects. Lich is awesome, dont get me wrong, but this is a lock and a wincon.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I will add one copy of each to the original deck, that makes an great alternative wincon for the 2nd, 3rd game.
Draft it Here!
UUUBlue Man Group
Legacy:
UWBMiracles
Edh:
UUUThassa Control
WWWHokori Stax
GGGJolrael, Empress of Land Stompy
BBBGriselbrand French List
RBGShattergang(Super Villians)
RWGHazezon Flicker
UBRMarchesa Aggro
URGMaelstom Wanderer (Maelstorm)
I've done my homework and played my deck extensively on MTGO for 6 weeks.
Here is the philosophy:
Disrupt opponent's hand with Thoughtseize, Orim's Chant and Tidehollow Scullers and try to achieve one of those three winning combos:
1) Sacrifice Academy Rector into Diabolic Intent and put Omniscience and Enter the infinite on the table. (play all the TideHollw Scullers before to clear the way). Instant win with Lich and Repay in Kind.
2) Play Lich (with Academy rector) + Mirror Universe (with Copper Gnomes)
3) Go the hard way: play Blightsteel Colossus (tutored the turn before) with Copper Gnomes.
Here is the current version:
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
1x Phyrexian Tower
2x Plains
2x Scrubland
2x Swamp
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
The combos + enablers
2x Lich
2x Mirror Universe
4x Dark Ritual
4x Academy Rector
4x Diabolic Intent
4x Copper Gnomes
1x Repay in Kind
2x Omniscience
1x Enter the Infinite
1x Blightsteel Colossus
4x TideHollow Sculler
2x Orim's Chant
1x Council's Judgment
2x Mother of Runes
2x Thoughtseize
Draw/Tutors
4x Rhystic Tutor
3x Pithing Needle
3x Rest in Peace
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Surgical Extraction
2x Chalice of the Void
2x Swords to Plowshares
I've had some success against Burn, Reanimate, 12-Post, Elves, and any slower deck.
I'm still struggling against Storm, Delver, Tarmogoyf, Miracles/Counterbalance, Pox and Death and Taxes (and any counterspell-heavy decks)
Constructive criticism would be very welcomed at this point. Thx!
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StaffThe deck probably looks something like this:
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Grim Tutor
4 Duress
4 Lich
4 Nourishing Shoal
4 Autochthon Wurm
18 Swamp
Currently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
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My deck is more cumbersome, but I always have the parts of one of my 3 combos by turn 3, unless I'm heavily disturbed by Pox or counterspells.
THAT said, I have all the pieces of your Wurm idea, except for a couple of chrome Mox and the Wurms, so I'll definitively try to run it!
Here's the result:
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
3 Chrome Mox
1 Diamond Mox
4 Rhystic Tutor
2 Grim Tutor
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Sign in Blood
4 Duress
4 Lich
4 Nourishing Shoal
4 Autochthon Wurm
3 Repay in Kind
10 Swamp
3x Chalice of the Void
2x Grafdigger's Cage
4x Pithing Needle
4x Relic of Progenitus
2x Surgical Extraction
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StaffCurrently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!
I do have a couple of Cruel Tutor, is this viable in Legacy ??
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StaffCurrently Playing:
Legacy: Something U/W Controlish
EDH Cube
Hypercube! A New EDH Deck Every Week(ish)!