Actually i can still remember most of your Mono-White(Seven Kingdoms) deck. It looks the strongest it can be, so if you dont mind i'll add your Mono-White decklist into my primer in the first post and credit you as the original creator. To be honest I doubt my mono-white creation will be much different from your list when i comes round to it after i finish my other decklists.
we only have those few knights and the Stoneforge toolbox to play with...
I don't mind at all, I'd be happy to have my deck as part of the primer. And I'm hoping for another knight lord or some more knight synergy cards in either M12 or Innistrad. 8 lords might actually put us on the competitive map.
For BW Knights, how about a nice Phyrexian Tower. Sure, you don't want many colorless cards, but it'll help keep things going to the graveyard as well for being a sometimes-help sac`ing off a blocked critter to pump a knight or cast an Inversion off from one land.
Phyrexian Tower looks reasonable here with some decent applications. It can be used when we are unable to get the 2 black to cast Haakon, or like you mention the additional mana it provides might enable us to pump a knight/equip and attack same turn or cast planeswalker one turn earlier etc.
However being quite conservative i would still prefer to stick to basic lands.
Between Flagstones, Flats, White Orchid, Entomb and Bob I've had a good amount of speed and fixing to help setup. Vindicate and Wastelands for added control. Everything else is pretty much old hat. I'm pretty happy with its performance so far. You can tear it apart if you like, our builds are going to come down to personal preference I think at this point.
How is the Flagstones working for you? Early on when you have a Flagstone in play i realised we temporarily lose one mana drop because we cannot tap the second Flagstone for mana when put into play. When this happens during the 3rd or 4th turn it really messes up our tempo.
Yeah, you are absolutely right here, at this point it is mostly personal preference and meta call.
I don't mind at all, I'd be happy to have my deck as part of the primer. And I'm hoping for another knight lord or some more knight synergy cards in either M12 or Innistrad. 8 lords might actually put us on the competitive map.
Thanks, i have added your decklist into the Primer.
I also hope we'll get some worthly knights in the new expansions. Puresteel is so weak it didnt even had first strike!
I'm not sure if Sigiled Paladin is good enough, exalted is good but protection from colors are better. The knights deck usually need to stall in the early turns and exalted does not aid this purpose at all.
Pariah is also fun when enchanting someone elses Indestructable creature and serves as creature removal is a way.
Honor of the Pure is also preference, again you can trade it in for Armored Ascension for more beats or more equip swords and Stoneforge Mystic - sometimes pulling out equip swords and messing around with Mystics can be beaten just by beefing up your Squadron Hawks with an Honor of the Pure out and a couple of swords of plowshares at the ready
Against other swords decks I just go creature hate by delving into my sideboard
Knights can beat people fairly fast, but if theres no gas in your draws or disruption, this deck features the indestructable combo you can aim for until you are able to do something about it
The sideboard allows you to go artifact/enchantment hate or creature hate\
Pariah is also fun when enchanting someone elses Indestructable creature and serves as creature removal is a way.
Honor of the Pure is also preference, again you can trade it in for Armored Ascension for more beats or more equip swords and Stoneforge Mystic - sometimes pulling out equip swords and messing around with Mystics can be beaten just by beefing up your Squadron Hawks with an Honor of the Pure out and a couple of swords of plowshares at the ready
Against other swords decks I just go creature hate by delving into my sideboard
Knights can beat people fairly fast, but if theres no gas in your draws or disruption, this deck features the indestructable combo you can aim for until you are able to do something about it
The sideboard allows you to go artifact/enchantment hate or creature hate\
I think your deck might be a bit too slow with the 4 Squadron Hawks. Tapping 2 mana for a 1/1 flyer is also too underwhelming compared to other popular legacy creatures. Those turns casting the Hawks will just allow your opponent to set up the board easily. Crawblade is not even competitive in legacy.
By playing Mother of Runes do you think you have too many 1-drop? In total there is 12 1-drop here. I'll give the Pariah/Knight exemplar a miss because no one plays enchant creatures anymore and this mini-combo is too reliant on having a Knight Exemplar and another Knight creature for it to work. Besides he can easily kill your Knight Exemplar to mess up the combo.
Since there isn't any fourth drop, maybe you can consider replacing the 3 Honor of the pure for Ajani Goldman. Always around when you have no creatures, never around when you have plently of creatures. Most of the time you will prefer to have another creature,removal or DOJ. Reason enough to exclude it.
This play style for this deck list actually looks quite similar to my Type 2 Mono-White Build.
[deck]
Knights can beat people fairly fast, but if theres no gas in your draws or disruption, this deck features the indestructable combo you can aim for until you are able to do something about it
Unfortunately i think with this decklist if you cant swarm opponents for the win during the early turns your "gas" is not big or strong enough to kill off your opponent.
I think your deck might be a bit too slow with the 4 Squadron Hawks. Tapping 2 mana for a 1/1 flyer is also too underwhelming compared to other popular legacy creatures. Those turns casting the Hawks will just allow your opponent to set up the board easily. Crawblade is not even competitive in legacy.
By playing Mother of Runes do you think you have too many 1-drop? In total there is 12 1-drop here. I'll give the Pariah/Knight exemplar a miss because no one plays enchant creatures anymore and this mini-combo is too reliant on having a Knight Exemplar and another Knight creature for it to work. Besides he can easily kill your Knight Exemplar to mess up the combo.
Since there isn't any fourth drop, maybe you can consider replacing the 3 Honor of the pure for Ajani Goldman. Always around when you have no creatures, never around when you have plently of creatures. Most of the time you will prefer to have another creature,removal or DOJ. Reason enough to exclude it.
This play style for this deck list actually looks quite similar to my Type 2 Mono-White Build.
Unfortunately i think with this decklist if you cant swarm opponents for the win during the early turns your "gas" is not big or strong enough to kill off your opponent.
I guess I was trying a different approach from just all out knights, a defensive approach if you like
against a fast aggro deck theres plenty of first strikers to put them off attacking, and as the game progresses the knights just get tougher
the birds are there to carry over the equipment - and if your not packing equipment, they quickly draw each other out into your hand and thin your deck and provide some chump blockers or small damage
equipment like a jittes on a bird can give you alot of control - and the opponent will usually use a spell getting rid of the bird, only to have the bird bring 3 of his mates along for the following turns, so its more of a consistent creature as opposed to a beater
as much as it looks like aggro, theres actually just as much control - but in legacy it can be a pain to play, but it has won me some tourney practice games
I cant tell you how many times Mother of Runes has protected my Knight Exemplar till the 2nd one comes out, and shes also very good at blocking - shes a great one drop and is all part of the defensive strat - and can also be used in the offensive with equipment to make things unblockable - she is also a magnet for removal so other things get less of the heat. Usually when someone wants to bolt a bird with jittes they have to aim at mother first, so she can be a big stall for removal
Heres the Sword build which i find works much better
good against aggro
hates combo/control - has sideboard to handle both
Maybe consider adding Silence/Orims Chant/Leyline of S. for combo decks
One things for sure, White has the control spells to back up knights
im actually pretty happy with the way it plays, it makes people think and can slow down someones tempo, and has many good matchups against other aggro decks - however i cant see it winning any tourneys
i think disruption is king at the moment - and this deck can handle it to and extent, but not enough
I think its a good all rounder but master of none - Its kind of control/aggro all in one, and works well, but is it enough? I will test further! One things for sure, its a solid white weenie with all the answers for board of play in the MD and SB against most matchups
This decklist is definitely much stronger than your previous list with the stoneforge toolbox, as the deck now has a more consistent win-con and better firepower to win the game.
I have been tempted to play Mother of Runes as it is a good stall board. And i agree with Mother being a magnet for removal will at least enable your other creatures to hang around for a longer time. Long enough to setup the 2x Knight Exemplar combo. There were many games when at least 2 of my Knight Exemplar were removed soon after the other.
However i think you will find yourself spoiled with choices in the early turns on how best to utilise your mana, there may be some turns whereby the possibilities is endless: 1) Cast Squadron Hawk to fill up the hand
2) Cast a Stoneforge Mystic 3) Drop an equipment into play
4) Equip an Equipment 5) Pump a Student of Warfare
My experiences from my type 2 build, out of the 5 options it seems Squadron Hawk is the worst card to play most of the time.
When you get board wiped or locked by counter-balance or Jace T2 etc, this may be key to recovering from such a matchup.
Alternatively, it is better playing Elspeth rather than a bunch of weenies when the game stalls..
However i think you will find yourself spoiled with choices in the early turns on how best to utilise your mana, there may be some turns whereby the possibilities is endless:
My experiences from my type 2 build, out of the 5 options it seems Squadron Hawk is the worst card to play most of the time.
Sword of Feast and famine allows you to do all of this so my answer is 2 and 3
but that also depends on what options are avaliable to you - In short, - The more choices the better.
gotta say i love the deck, some watchers said they really like it - im so happy I am now playing white, the control spells are very powerful.
Matchup to U.G.W. (2-1) Knights Win - Fight for board - The Indestructible Knights obsorbed the Tarmogoyfs / Mothers and equipped Hawks obsorbed the swords to plowshares and the equipment presence abosorbed Qasali Pridemage - But in the end, constant Indestructible Knights backed with Plowshares and Path to Exile wins - My blockers stop his aggro until I get aggro control and life link Knights on the table - its a long game, and control and board presence is key here.
Most of my Plowshares got eaten by UGW's counters - and he had to spend turns getting out his Qasali Pridemage trying to control the artifacts to come.
Each game lasted a long time, on the last one I knew his game plan. Once a couple of Qasali Pridemage had been summoned to kill vial and jittes, and his sowrds to plowshares on other numerous creatures i waited for the right moment to get Sword of Light and Shadow into play (which made my knight protected to his white removal and at the same time he didnt draw into his last Qasali Pridemage) , stuck it onto a lifelink first striking 5/5 indestructable knight and took game, using a mother to make it prot from green. He only had Green/White goldies on the field and a Goyf, but this life Gaining Knight was protected from it all, at 8 life a turn, even an all out attack from him wouldnt have really done much even if i chose not to block (However i had 2 indestructible blockers avaliable and some chump birds to last enough turns to take the 3rd game)
How is the Flagstones working for you? Early on when you have a Flagstone in play i realised we temporarily lose one mana drop because we cannot tap the second Flagstone for mana when put into play. When this happens during the 3rd or 4th turn it really messes up our tempo.
Pretty well, I haven't run into problems. Flagstones origins started back when I was running Buried Alive to lower the amount of lands I drew into after filling my yard and to get closer to changeling/misc cards (Marsh Flats wasn't around back then when I first built my knight deck either :P). They're good for hitting both colors in a pinch. IMO, I feel they help more than hurt as the thinning and fixing out weigh losing the one mana drop. The build that I use has such a low mana curve it shouldn't hurt to much as almost every card (10 cards excluded) in the deck can be played on turn two. Mileage may vary but I'd still recommend them even for a higher cmc deck.
@Gallimar: Your list looks a lot better, but like others I recommend against Squadron Hawk. It's a great card in standard, but it just doesn't make the cut in Legacy, and certainly not in a tribal-ish deck. I would cut them for 3 Mirran Crusader. If you can attach a Sword or a Jitte to it and swing, then you've automatically gained a huge advantage. 4 Counters on Jitte? Deal 4 damage to a creature or player and draw 2 cards with SoFaI? Gain 6 life and return 2 creatures from the grave with SoLaS? Plus, it has relevent protection, from Black and Green. One other thing I see is that you might want 1 or 2 more lands, I don't think 20 is really enough, since you have to equip stuff too. I've cut Elspeth from my current build because 4 mana is too much for me with everything else, and simply run a Neurok Hoversail in my Stoneforge Package to get around Moat. Elspeth's a great card, but in my deck I found her to be too much over the curve to work. I run 23 lands in my current build (Horizon Canopy helps against mana flood), and I'd recommend at least 22. Also, why so many fetchlands? I run 3 for Knight of the White Orchid shenanigans (sac the land, then Vial in Knight in response), but 8 is way too many imo. I think it's been shown statistically that deck thinning from fetchlands is insignificant.
The Puresteel Paladin deck idea didn't really work out as planned, so I changed it back closer to the original build. Here's what I have now:
The Puresteel Paladin deck idea didn't really work out as planned, so I changed it back closer to the original build.
I understand that without an exorbitant amount of equipment there isn't much benefit from the card drawing effect of Puresteel Paladin but has the free equip effect not been useful enough to warrant its overall use?
@Gallimar: Your list looks a lot better, but like others I recommend against Squadron Hawk. It's a great card in standard, but it just doesn't make the cut in Legacy, and certainly not in a tribal-ish deck. I would cut them for 3 Mirran Crusader. If you can attach a Sword or a Jitte to it and swing, then you've automatically gained a huge advantage. 4 Counters on Jitte? Deal 4 damage to a creature or player and draw 2 cards with SoFaI? Gain 6 life and return 2 creatures from the grave with SoLaS? Plus, it has relevent protection, from Black and Green. One other thing I see is that you might want 1 or 2 more lands, I don't think 20 is really enough, since you have to equip stuff too. I've cut Elspeth from my current build because 4 mana is too much for me with everything else, and simply run a Neurok Hoversail in my Stoneforge Package to get around Moat. Elspeth's a great card, but in my deck I found her to be too much over the curve to work. I run 23 lands in my current build (Horizon Canopy helps against mana flood), and I'd recommend at least 22. Also, why so many fetchlands? I run 3 for Knight of the White Orchid shenanigans (sac the land, then Vial in Knight in response), but 8 is way too many imo. I think it's been shown statistically that deck thinning from fetchlands is insignificant.
The Puresteel Paladin deck idea didn't really work out as planned, so I changed it back closer to the original build. Here's what I have now:
however they have taken counter spells and have absorbed the most burn compared to any of my other creatures when an equipment is sitting on the table - they work, on paper they look rubbish, but they do work! when someone kills a bird with a jitte on it, youy know you have 3 more in your hand for them to think about, making them think about that and the indestuctible knights and a mother makes it very hard for them to make desicions about removal and the opposing artifact equipment on the table
Still testing the addition of esplith on my deck.... sure she costs 4.... but she only costs 4 once, allowing more board presence. When equiping something a turn early simply wont do, its time to cast her - She also has the ability to give creatures flying, just like your artifact equipment
i need to update my deck as i am running more lands now. but not much more, however i have never had a mana issue in this deck,
Mirran Crusader may make it into the deck, but the birds are still winning me games and give me card draw, deck thinning and creatures
RE: deck thinning - Birds, Orchids and Stoneforges and fetches all in one deck speed this process up, - Granted Fetchs on their own dont do much, But all these together do
ive won games with mother, birds and stonforges; before even playing into the knights package, within my knights deck theres a small package based around the reliability of the birds alone. Can anyone say engineered plague? (respectivley white can deal with E.Plague very well lol)
people shouldnt under-estimate the birds ability and what threat it puts into the opponents head when coupled with an equipment piece and hand full of other birds - its changed players tactics, in focusing on removing my birds and equipment, whilst the knights slowly build on the ground; and if they target my knights, i got a bird in the air with a jitte backed with a swords to plowshares against any blockers
birds are very cheap to get hold off, i recommend you try them in your decks, it wont cost an arm and a leg and youll see new tactics open up. youll also notice that when you have one on the table, youll have backups to fire and attract removal and how much attention they get when equipment is on the table leaving you free to do other things with your knights
the birds also give something for aether vial to do when youve emptied your hand
now lets look at legacy and the amount of creature removal people use in decks (swords to plowshares mainly, but theres plenty out there in the format)
scenario
=========
Ok so youve got a crusader out with a jitte on it (swords answers it)
Ive got a bird with jitte on it (swords stalls it but it will happen again soon, i may even give it protection from white using mother)
scenario 2
=========
You got a flying double striking knight somehow with a jitte on it
i answer that with bird, mother, protection from white and block / or use swords
at minimum you should Run mother in your deck to protect your knights from removal. There is to much of it in Legacy to ignore her tender breasts of life
it important to note that people who play serious legacy usually have creatures with some type of evasion, usually this is flying. birds can chump block any of those that fly, for the next 3 turns also as they summon each other into your hand, but when backed by mother, you got yourself a solid flyer, mother also gives it protection from being blocked by giving it a protection from the colour of your choice. Just add equipment
I dont think knights could handle some situations in legacy without having some creatures with built in abilitys to fly. There is Leonin Skyhunter in the shape of a knight, but if i want a flyer, i usally want a few more to, so its preference of play. the birds definatley work for me. Anyhow, if they can deal with a bird, it also means they can deal with Leonin Skyhunter (Unless Exemplar is on the field) - So i like to fill my hand with a backup plan
If you rule the sky, and have equipment out, its pretty much game. you can free up mother for more usefull advantages on the ground or to sit and wait for the removal spell - Mother is part of the core.
I am tempted to say Knight of Meadowgrain is part of the core, as a lifelink first Striker can always get you out of trouble and makes a good blocker that gives life especially when indestructable, hes definatley won me a game and puts people off attacking, and when protected by mother and given +3/+3 by Elspeth on turn 4 is a massive life giver whilst doing decent 1st strike damage
White Orchid depends on your mana base, if its strong, you dont really need him abd becomes more redundant with vial. However he does draw more land out of your deck and can help get Elspeth into play - and he has a good synergy with Vial to if you play it right.
Try your decks with this core and let me know how you go.
If you want a Deck Name its called "Mommy's Knights" - She is the key card, she protects your knights, then when your knights become indestructable and can look after themselves, she gives them protection from the blocking creatures colour of your choice
Sword of Feast and famine allows you to do all of this so my answer is 2 and 3
but that also depends on what options are avaliable to you - In short, - The more choices the better.
I'm not sure but i usually won't look for a Sword of F&F although it has good synergy with Student of Warfare. The sword is not even in my maindeck. But since you are playing Hawks i guess that's the right choice.
Matchup to U.G.W. (2-1) Knights Win - Fight for board - The Indestructible Knights obsorbed the Tarmogoyfs / Mothers and equipped Hawks obsorbed the swords to plowshares and the equipment presence abosorbed Qasali Pridemage - But in the end, constant Indestructible Knights backed with Plowshares and Path to Exile wins - My blockers stop his aggro until I get aggro control and life link Knights on the table - its a long game, and control and board presence is key here.
It seems Mother of Runes was key in stalling the board which eventually gave you the time to setup the board effectively with indestructable knights. I have been tempted to try Mom but having 12 one drops (including Student & Vial) will tend to make the deck quite lightweight. That said i might still play Mom when i form my Mono-white.
Pretty well, I haven't run into problems. Flagstones origins started back when I was running Buried Alive to lower the amount of lands I drew into after filling my yard and to get closer to changeling/misc cards (Marsh Flats wasn't around back then when I first built my knight deck either :P). They're good for hitting both colors in a pinch. IMO, I feel they help more than hurt as the thinning and fixing out weigh losing the one mana drop. The build that I use has such a low mana curve it shouldn't hurt to much as almost every card (10 cards excluded) in the deck can be played on turn two. Mileage may vary but I'd still recommend them even for a higher cmc deck.
I'll probably play only 2-3 flagstones as the potential early mana-drop lost did happened to me a few times when i was running 4 of them. Getting 2 of them in your first 10 cards is a very real possibility and the mana-drop lost was crucial to my game-plan. It was too much to sacrifice for the extra bit of thinning it does for the deck.
Good try on the Puresteel Paladin, i guess you know better than us it wasnt going to work but you just had to go for it? I haven't build my mono-white yet but i'm still quite reluctant to try puresteel at the moment. If he wasn't a knight i wouldnt be so torn over him...
Anyway i noticed you had 4 Knight of Meadowgrain maindeck. What is your take on them over White or Silver Knight? I would like to think it is personal preference but i'm starting to lean towards Meadowgrain after i playtest them in my B/W knight deck.
Below is my B/W deck which i playtested against a Tier One U/W Counterbalance Thorpter deck and a Casual Faerie deck.
Kindly let me know what you guys think about it. I removed Vindicate before knowing which decks i was playing against. Leonin Relic-Warder was added because i felt i had too many 3 casting cost spells and it feels cool to be able to Vial in artifact/enchantment removal.
Matchup Counter-Thropter W 5-1
Managed to beat Counter-throper very easily, the only game i lost was when i was struck with 1 Plains & 1 Swamps for a few turns which was sufficient for him to setup his combo and lock. For that game Haakon was in my graveyard ready to be cast into play but it was too late.
During our games my opponent was not impressed with Haakon saying he could Swords to Plowshares him, i promptly told him to keep his Plowshares for Haakon then.
Most of the games were a breeze for me because Leonin Relic-Warder was able to smash him combo to pieces. A first turn Vial will also be a very easy win for me. Stillmoon & Student was a huge source of damage against his deck which often draw his removal before i cast Leonin Relic-Warder.
Faerie-Curiosity W 4-1
Lost the only game because i was land-screwed again. The other games were also a breeze as I mostly use Vial to bypass his Spellsutter combo. The trick against this deck is to remove his Faerie early which is quite easy when i have 7 removals maindecked. Knight of Meadowgrain was also able to provide me with enough life-gain to overcome early damage from the flyers.
In a matchup against Zoo it was just to rough, I need to work on that and will hopefully report some findings soon. Maybe i got unlucky as i didnt draw into any PtE or StP. My hand just wasnt as quick as what it sometimes is - any way that was just one match against Zoo. I need more than 1 before i make any deep analysis.
Mom is a key card. She protects your Knights from removal and makes them immune to damage when blocking until they are made indestructable. When this happens she then gives them protection from the opposing blockers making sure they get through. Just add equipment for even more control
I added 2 more land and took out the hawks for Mirran Crusader
I also took out sword of feast and famine and added a basilisk collar, to many 3cc equipments make them to exspensive to get out on to the table
In a matchup against Zoo it was just to rough, I need to work on that and will hopefully report some findings soon. Maybe i got unlucky as i didnt draw into any PtE or StP. My hand just wasnt as quick as what it sometimes is - any way that was just one match against Zoo. I need more than 1 before i make any deep analysis.
Mom is a key card. She protects your Knights from removal and makes them immune to damage when blocking until they are made indestructable. When this happens she then gives them protection from the opposing blockers making sure they get through. Just add equipment for even more control
I think by now it has been established which of the knights are the usual "suspects". Good to hear Mom is working well in your deck. I just brought a set of Moms and will try them too.
I feel the matchup against Zoo is unfavourable as they simply have way too many removals than us. Their creatures is cheaper and bigger as well. In most games my Zoo opponent does not even bother to remove the equipments as they can simply kill all my creatures. To make it worse, even a typical knight equipped with SoFI & SoLS is not big enough to kill Tarmogoyf. They probably have 10 removal spells or more for my Knight Exemplar so dont count on it sticking around for even a few turns. Mirran Crusader suffers the same fate with Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares all over the place.
Some of the best ways to play Zoo will be to resolve a Jitte or Elspeth to stall the board PLUS killing their first turn Nacatl. I always kill the cat whenever i sees it. Never allow Nacatl to deal early damage as Zoo can easily finish you off before you can set up your board. Zoo is also fast in clearing their hand and relying on topdeck mode unlike our deck which tend to have more "gas" thanks to the Stoneforge toolbox & Elspeth.
Sideboarding Retribution of the Meek will be key in removing their biggies. Your StP and PtE will be sufficient in taking out their Wild Nacatl and Grim Lavamancer. From there you should have more "gas" to finish off your Zoo opponent.
Privileged Position has a nasty ability but at 5cc it is too expensive so i dont know how i can utilise it. It is too expensive as a maindeck card and i'm not sure how i can sideboard him. I dont think i'll ever use him. At 5cc i want a bomb, and this is not a bomb. This is probably a card which will enhance an already winning board. Take note that the card is useless if you dont have a strong board. It doesnt do anything if you are struggling in a game and is looking for a solution.
Thanks for suggesting this 2 cards, however as per my analysis i wont be adding it into the primer. Please let me know if my opinions on them needs to be corrected. I'm more than keen to find deserving cards to add into the primer.
I think by now it has been established which of the knights are the usual "suspects". Good to hear Mom is working well in your deck. I just brought a set of Moms and will try them too.
I feel the matchup against Zoo is unfavourable as they simply have way too many removals than us. Their creatures is cheaper and bigger as well. In most games my Zoo opponent does not even bother to remove the equipments as they can simply kill all my creatures. To make it worse, even a typical knight equipped with SoFI & SoLS is not big enough to kill Tarmogoyf. They probably have 10 removal spells or more for my Knight Exemplar so dont count on it sticking around for even a few turns. Mirran Crusader suffers the same fate with Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares all over the place.
Some of the best ways to play Zoo will be to resolve a Jitte or Elspeth to stall the board PLUS killing their first turn Nacatl. I always kill the cat whenever i sees it. Never allow Nacatl to deal early damage as Zoo can easily finish you off before you can set up your board. Zoo is also fast in clearing their hand and relying on topdeck mode unlike our deck which tend to have more "gas" thanks to the Stoneforge toolbox & Elspeth.
Sideboarding Retribution of the Meek will be key in removing their biggies. Your StP and PtE will be sufficient in taking out their Wild Nacatl and Grim Lavamancer. From there you should have more "gas" to finish off your Zoo opponent.
Privileged Position has a nasty ability but at 5cc it is too expensive so i dont know how i can utilise it. It is too expensive as a maindeck card and i'm not sure how i can sideboard him. I dont think i'll ever use him. At 5cc i want a bomb, and this is not a bomb. This is probably a card which will enhance an already winning board. Take note that the card is useless if you dont have a strong board. It doesnt do anything if you are struggling in a game and is looking for a solution.
Thanks for suggesting this 2 cards, however as per my analysis i wont be adding it into the primer. Please let me know if my opinions on them needs to be corrected. I'm more than keen to find deserving cards to add into the primer.
As someone who's been playing knights since Ice Age came out, it's good to see interest in a competitive deck seems to be picking up. It would be nice to see comprehensive input from regular tourney players as to how the different flavors of knights stack up against the major deck types in today's meta and the strategies each variant uses to deal with each of the decks to beat. Maybe it can be part of the primer, or maybe the folks with experience piloting the different flavors can chip in with their analysis of their favorite knight deck and how it does against the major decks?
hmmm....for the birds build, although I know it's been taken out for the moment, have you considered a 1 of mistveil plains? I know it's a horrible draw, but it does have some serious synergy with the hawks and you'll never run out provided it ran into a non exile effect. Also, you're running something like 8 fetches, which means it should be no problem to go get it.
I need to start evaluating my matchups to define the perfect sideboard
Zoo - need a card to slow them down or kill the burst of 1cc creatures to get control but faster than a turn 4 ***
Need a card to destroy those decks that setup moat/challice of the void/trinisphere/smokestack
need a card to handle the GY
Need a card to handle Combo Decks
silence/Orims Chant could be good against zoo and combo, slowing zoo down a turn
Relic of Prognitus is a lovley card for GY hate
I got 4x Mental Mistep - which could be good against zoo as half the deck costs 1cc and good against high tide?
What do you think?
maybe a turn 2 chalice of the void?
Pardon me for asking, how many sideboard cards do you intend to prepare? It seems like you are going to burst 15 cards here..
Against Zoo:
Personally i would'nt use ratchet bomb or ghostly prison because the former is too slow and the latter does not really stop Zoo. I play ghostly prison in armageddon Stax against Zoo and if it wasn't good enough even with mana denial i doubt it'll work here. You are correct, *** is definitely too slow, you would have taken too much early damage and Zoo will just finish you off with burn. chalice of the void is pointless as we don't play the likes of Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors. Actually i think just play more removals like 4x StP & PtE. Or even 4x Rune Halo so you stop Gofy and Kotr?
Against "moat/challice of the void/trinisphere/smokestack", just play 4x Leonin Relic-Warder. It gives you an extra body to beatdown at 2 mana and it is versatile enough to remove either enchantment or artifact.
As someone who's been playing knights since Ice Age came out, it's good to see interest in a competitive deck seems to be picking up. It would be nice to see comprehensive input from regular tourney players as to how the different flavors of knights stack up against the major deck types in today's meta and the strategies each variant uses to deal with each of the decks to beat. Maybe it can be part of the primer, or maybe the folks with experience piloting the different flavors can chip in with their analysis of their favorite knight deck and how it does against the major decks?
To be frank Knights deck was much stronger before NPH. Unfortunately Mental Misstep has affected creatures deck(especially with Vial) and further strengthened control deck. I have been hit with a first turn misstep these few weeks so frequently it makes a opening hand with Aether Vial nothing to be excited about. I had some good success against tournament decks previously which i will update my main primer along the way. You can tune in to the B/W Haakon Knights deck for updates as that is the current deck i'm playing now.
hmmm....for the birds build, although I know it's been taken out for the moment, have you considered a 1 of mistveil plains? I know it's a horrible draw, but it does have some serious synergy with the hawks and you'll never run out provided it ran into a non exile effect. Also, you're running something like 8 fetches, which means it should be no problem to go get it.
Mistveil Plains looks good on paper but i'm still worried with having a land which comes into play tapped messing up your tempo during the early game. Besides i try to run as few non-basic lands as possible. However it's worth trying if your meta is full of mid-game decks. My meta is mostly popular with mana/card denial decks so i can't play such a card which might affect consistency.
I guess it really depends on the meta where you play. my area runs more to aggro than control, so Mental Misstep is good news since it hurts goblins and zoo much more than it hurts knights - they run so many more 1-drops and are more dependent on the explosive start. And these are the decks knights have trouble racing. Against control I have Cataclysms and a 1-of Boseiju for Knight of the Reliquary to tutor up.
That's right. Unfortunately my meta is already mostly Control and few aggro even before MM. This 2 weeks i suddenly saw many people in my meta playing 4x Mental Misstep, 4x Stifle and card disruptions like Hymn to Tourach and Thoughtseize.
I can't get my first few cards(Student of Warfare/Aether Vial) out due to MM and Stifle, the 2-drops get disrupted due to the discard spells. It makes a difficult matchup much harder to overcome at the moment.
I ever got thrashed by a Dark Horizons deck in my local tournament before even before the advent of MM.
Sorry for ranting but i'm quite disappointed with the creation of MM.
Knights can also make use of Mental Misstep while WB can also use Hymn to Tourach and Thoughtseize which help a little against control and zoo. Zoo is fast but you can get them into top deck mode if you hold out and help strip their hand. I don't think NPH has made things worse when we gain access to a control card too. Force of Will and Daze have been around prior and have been a pain in the rear. Misstep only adds to what was already around for the most part.
One card I like to sideboard is Extirpate you can knock out all other copies of STPS, Path, Bolt, etc from zoo. Also, knock out counter suites with Split Second protection. Depending on if you sideboard in/are using discard you don't gain a disadvantage of being tagged by their first spell before you extirpate.
There are times when Haakon and the Equipment need to come out for a different strategy.
I'm not sure if Mental Misstep is suitable, at most a sideboard card. Especially with Sideboard you really want to put cards which is useful against bad matchups rather than MM. Playing MM will actually dilute our deck focus while it complement control decks.
Depending on your Knights build, the 2 BB for Hymn makes it pretty impossible to cast during the early turns but Thoughtseize might be a good choice although don't forget you already have 4x Aether Vial & 4x Student of Warfare as your first drop. Casting Thoughtseize so you can cast a Vial or Student on the second turn is not how the deck should be played.
I'm not sure but extirpate sounds like a good inclusion, i might try it if i manage to get hold of that card.
I don't mind at all, I'd be happy to have my deck as part of the primer. And I'm hoping for another knight lord or some more knight synergy cards in either M12 or Innistrad. 8 lords might actually put us on the competitive map.
My list was:
17 Plains
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Mutavault
Creatures: 23
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Silver Knight
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Path to Exile
Artifacts: 8
4 Aether Vial
1 Basilisk Collar
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
Planeswalkers: 3
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Silence
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Oblivion Ring
If I were to go back to that, I think I might switch out Silver Knight for something else, either Knight of Meadowgrain or Sigiled Paladin, and then switch out Sword of Light and Shadow for Sword of War and Peace.
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Phyrexian Tower looks reasonable here with some decent applications. It can be used when we are unable to get the 2 black to cast Haakon, or like you mention the additional mana it provides might enable us to pump a knight/equip and attack same turn or cast planeswalker one turn earlier etc.
However being quite conservative i would still prefer to stick to basic lands.
How is the Flagstones working for you? Early on when you have a Flagstone in play i realised we temporarily lose one mana drop because we cannot tap the second Flagstone for mana when put into play. When this happens during the 3rd or 4th turn it really messes up our tempo.
Yeah, you are absolutely right here, at this point it is mostly personal preference and meta call.
Thanks, i have added your decklist into the Primer.
I also hope we'll get some worthly knights in the new expansions. Puresteel is so weak it didnt even had first strike!
I'm not sure if Sigiled Paladin is good enough, exalted is good but protection from colors are better. The knights deck usually need to stall in the early turns and exalted does not aid this purpose at all.
I'm very glad you find it useful. That is the very intention of this primer. Cheers.
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
So why is Mother of Runes and squadron hawk in here?
Well squadron hawk gives you card draw and thins your deck and provides some creatures to play
Mother of Runes is a good 1 drop to get the party started and is good early and late game
fetch lands also thin your deck - So getting this deck to flow right without running out of gas is vital
Pariah + Any Knight + Knight Exemplar
against mono coloured decks - Pariah + Mother of Runes (doesnt work well against red unless you got 2xMother of Runes defending one another each turn
Pariah is preference, you can trade it in for Armored Ascension for more beats or more equip swords and Stoneforge Mystic
Pariah is also fun when enchanting someone elses Indestructable creature and serves as creature removal is a way.
Honor of the Pure is also preference, again you can trade it in for Armored Ascension for more beats or more equip swords and Stoneforge Mystic - sometimes pulling out equip swords and messing around with Mystics can be beaten just by beefing up your Squadron Hawks with an Honor of the Pure out and a couple of swords of plowshares at the ready
Against other swords decks I just go creature hate by delving into my sideboard
Knights can beat people fairly fast, but if theres no gas in your draws or disruption, this deck features the indestructable combo you can aim for until you are able to do something about it
The sideboard allows you to go artifact/enchantment hate or creature hate\
I think your deck might be a bit too slow with the 4 Squadron Hawks. Tapping 2 mana for a 1/1 flyer is also too underwhelming compared to other popular legacy creatures. Those turns casting the Hawks will just allow your opponent to set up the board easily. Crawblade is not even competitive in legacy.
By playing Mother of Runes do you think you have too many 1-drop? In total there is 12 1-drop here. I'll give the Pariah/Knight exemplar a miss because no one plays enchant creatures anymore and this mini-combo is too reliant on having a Knight Exemplar and another Knight creature for it to work. Besides he can easily kill your Knight Exemplar to mess up the combo.
Since there isn't any fourth drop, maybe you can consider replacing the 3 Honor of the pure for Ajani Goldman. Always around when you have no creatures, never around when you have plently of creatures. Most of the time you will prefer to have another creature,removal or DOJ. Reason enough to exclude it.
This play style for this deck list actually looks quite similar to my Type 2 Mono-White Build.
4 Knight Exemplar
3 Knight of Cliffhaven
4 Squadron Hawk
4 Student of Warfare
2 Sun Titan
2 White Knight
2 Ajani Goldmane
Spells [16]
4 Brave the Elements
4 Day of Judgment
4 Emerge Unscathed
4 Journey to Nowhere
3 Emeria, the Sky Ruin
20 Plains
Unfortunately i think with this decklist if you cant swarm opponents for the win during the early turns your "gas" is not big or strong enough to kill off your opponent.
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I guess I was trying a different approach from just all out knights, a defensive approach if you like
against a fast aggro deck theres plenty of first strikers to put them off attacking, and as the game progresses the knights just get tougher
the birds are there to carry over the equipment - and if your not packing equipment, they quickly draw each other out into your hand and thin your deck and provide some chump blockers or small damage
equipment like a jittes on a bird can give you alot of control - and the opponent will usually use a spell getting rid of the bird, only to have the bird bring 3 of his mates along for the following turns, so its more of a consistent creature as opposed to a beater
as much as it looks like aggro, theres actually just as much control - but in legacy it can be a pain to play, but it has won me some tourney practice games
I cant tell you how many times Mother of Runes has protected my Knight Exemplar till the 2nd one comes out, and shes also very good at blocking - shes a great one drop and is all part of the defensive strat - and can also be used in the offensive with equipment to make things unblockable - she is also a magnet for removal so other things get less of the heat. Usually when someone wants to bolt a bird with jittes they have to aim at mother first, so she can be a big stall for removal
Heres the Sword build which i find works much better
good against aggro
hates combo/control - has sideboard to handle both
Maybe consider adding Silence/Orims Chant/Leyline of S. for combo decks
One things for sure, White has the control spells to back up knights
im actually pretty happy with the way it plays, it makes people think and can slow down someones tempo, and has many good matchups against other aggro decks - however i cant see it winning any tourneys
i think disruption is king at the moment - and this deck can handle it to and extent, but not enough
I think its a good all rounder but master of none - Its kind of control/aggro all in one, and works well, but is it enough? I will test further! One things for sure, its a solid white weenie with all the answers for board of play in the MD and SB against most matchups
I have been tempted to play Mother of Runes as it is a good stall board. And i agree with Mother being a magnet for removal will at least enable your other creatures to hang around for a longer time. Long enough to setup the 2x Knight Exemplar combo. There were many games when at least 2 of my Knight Exemplar were removed soon after the other.
However i think you will find yourself spoiled with choices in the early turns on how best to utilise your mana, there may be some turns whereby the possibilities is endless:
1) Cast Squadron Hawk to fill up the hand
2) Cast a Stoneforge Mystic
3) Drop an equipment into play
4) Equip an Equipment
5) Pump a Student of Warfare
My experiences from my type 2 build, out of the 5 options it seems Squadron Hawk is the worst card to play most of the time.
Maybe you can also try:
+2 Elpseth, the Knight Errant
-1 Knight of Meadowgrain
-1 Squadron Hawk
When you get board wiped or locked by counter-balance or Jace T2 etc, this may be key to recovering from such a matchup.
Alternatively, it is better playing Elspeth rather than a bunch of weenies when the game stalls..
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
- 1x Jitte
- 1x Squadron Hawk
Sword of Feast and famine allows you to do all of this so my answer is 2 and 3
but that also depends on what options are avaliable to you - In short, - The more choices the better.
gotta say i love the deck, some watchers said they really like it - im so happy I am now playing white, the control spells are very powerful.
Matchup to U.G.W. (2-1) Knights Win - Fight for board - The Indestructible Knights obsorbed the Tarmogoyfs / Mothers and equipped Hawks obsorbed the swords to plowshares and the equipment presence abosorbed Qasali Pridemage - But in the end, constant Indestructible Knights backed with Plowshares and Path to Exile wins - My blockers stop his aggro until I get aggro control and life link Knights on the table - its a long game, and control and board presence is key here.
Most of my Plowshares got eaten by UGW's counters - and he had to spend turns getting out his Qasali Pridemage trying to control the artifacts to come.
Each game lasted a long time, on the last one I knew his game plan. Once a couple of Qasali Pridemage had been summoned to kill vial and jittes, and his sowrds to plowshares on other numerous creatures i waited for the right moment to get Sword of Light and Shadow into play (which made my knight protected to his white removal and at the same time he didnt draw into his last Qasali Pridemage) , stuck it onto a lifelink first striking 5/5 indestructable knight and took game, using a mother to make it prot from green. He only had Green/White goldies on the field and a Goyf, but this life Gaining Knight was protected from it all, at 8 life a turn, even an all out attack from him wouldnt have really done much even if i chose not to block (However i had 2 indestructible blockers avaliable and some chump birds to last enough turns to take the 3rd game)
guess it was a game well played
The Puresteel Paladin deck idea didn't really work out as planned, so I changed it back closer to the original build. Here's what I have now:
15 Plains
3 Marsh Flats
3 Horizon Canopy
2 Mutavault
Creatures: 24
4 Student of Warfare
4 Knight of the White Orchid
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Mirran Crusader
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Neurok Hoversail
1 Basilisk Collar
Instants/Sorceries: 4
4 Path to Exile
4 Relic of Progenitus
4 Silence
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Oblivion Ring
In Modern:
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so many people object against my budgies lol
however they have taken counter spells and have absorbed the most burn compared to any of my other creatures when an equipment is sitting on the table - they work, on paper they look rubbish, but they do work! when someone kills a bird with a jitte on it, youy know you have 3 more in your hand for them to think about, making them think about that and the indestuctible knights and a mother makes it very hard for them to make desicions about removal and the opposing artifact equipment on the table
Still testing the addition of esplith on my deck.... sure she costs 4.... but she only costs 4 once, allowing more board presence. When equiping something a turn early simply wont do, its time to cast her - She also has the ability to give creatures flying, just like your artifact equipment
i need to update my deck as i am running more lands now. but not much more, however i have never had a mana issue in this deck,
Mirran Crusader may make it into the deck, but the birds are still winning me games and give me card draw, deck thinning and creatures
RE: deck thinning - Birds, Orchids and Stoneforges and fetches all in one deck speed this process up, - Granted Fetchs on their own dont do much, But all these together do
ive won games with mother, birds and stonforges; before even playing into the knights package, within my knights deck theres a small package based around the reliability of the birds alone. Can anyone say engineered plague? (respectivley white can deal with E.Plague very well lol)
people shouldnt under-estimate the birds ability and what threat it puts into the opponents head when coupled with an equipment piece and hand full of other birds - its changed players tactics, in focusing on removing my birds and equipment, whilst the knights slowly build on the ground; and if they target my knights, i got a bird in the air with a jitte backed with a swords to plowshares against any blockers
birds are very cheap to get hold off, i recommend you try them in your decks, it wont cost an arm and a leg and youll see new tactics open up. youll also notice that when you have one on the table, youll have backups to fire and attract removal and how much attention they get when equipment is on the table leaving you free to do other things with your knights
the birds also give something for aether vial to do when youve emptied your hand
now lets look at legacy and the amount of creature removal people use in decks (swords to plowshares mainly, but theres plenty out there in the format)
scenario
=========
Ok so youve got a crusader out with a jitte on it (swords answers it)
Ive got a bird with jitte on it (swords stalls it but it will happen again soon, i may even give it protection from white using mother)
scenario 2
=========
You got a flying double striking knight somehow with a jitte on it
i answer that with bird, mother, protection from white and block / or use swords
at minimum you should Run mother in your deck to protect your knights from removal. There is to much of it in Legacy to ignore her tender breasts of life
it important to note that people who play serious legacy usually have creatures with some type of evasion, usually this is flying. birds can chump block any of those that fly, for the next 3 turns also as they summon each other into your hand, but when backed by mother, you got yourself a solid flyer, mother also gives it protection from being blocked by giving it a protection from the colour of your choice. Just add equipment
I dont think knights could handle some situations in legacy without having some creatures with built in abilitys to fly. There is Leonin Skyhunter in the shape of a knight, but if i want a flyer, i usally want a few more to, so its preference of play. the birds definatley work for me. Anyhow, if they can deal with a bird, it also means they can deal with Leonin Skyhunter (Unless Exemplar is on the field) - So i like to fill my hand with a backup plan
If you rule the sky, and have equipment out, its pretty much game. you can free up mother for more usefull advantages on the ground or to sit and wait for the removal spell - Mother is part of the core.
I would say my decks core to success consists of:
1xUmezawa's Jitte
1xSword of Light and Shadow
1x A Sword for your Meta or a backup Jitte
1x A Sword for your Meta or a backup Jitte
I am tempted to say Knight of Meadowgrain is part of the core, as a lifelink first Striker can always get you out of trouble and makes a good blocker that gives life especially when indestructable, hes definatley won me a game and puts people off attacking, and when protected by mother and given +3/+3 by Elspeth on turn 4 is a massive life giver whilst doing decent 1st strike damage
White Orchid depends on your mana base, if its strong, you dont really need him abd becomes more redundant with vial. However he does draw more land out of your deck and can help get Elspeth into play - and he has a good synergy with Vial to if you play it right.
Try your decks with this core and let me know how you go.
If you want a Deck Name its called "Mommy's Knights" - She is the key card, she protects your knights, then when your knights become indestructable and can look after themselves, she gives them protection from the blocking creatures colour of your choice
I'm not sure but i usually won't look for a Sword of F&F although it has good synergy with Student of Warfare. The sword is not even in my maindeck. But since you are playing Hawks i guess that's the right choice.
It seems Mother of Runes was key in stalling the board which eventually gave you the time to setup the board effectively with indestructable knights. I have been tempted to try Mom but having 12 one drops (including Student & Vial) will tend to make the deck quite lightweight. That said i might still play Mom when i form my Mono-white.
I'll probably play only 2-3 flagstones as the potential early mana-drop lost did happened to me a few times when i was running 4 of them. Getting 2 of them in your first 10 cards is a very real possibility and the mana-drop lost was crucial to my game-plan. It was too much to sacrifice for the extra bit of thinning it does for the deck.
Good try on the Puresteel Paladin, i guess you know better than us it wasnt going to work but you just had to go for it? I haven't build my mono-white yet but i'm still quite reluctant to try puresteel at the moment. If he wasn't a knight i wouldnt be so torn over him...
Anyway i noticed you had 4 Knight of Meadowgrain maindeck. What is your take on them over White or Silver Knight? I would like to think it is personal preference but i'm starting to lean towards Meadowgrain after i playtest them in my B/W knight deck.
Below is my B/W deck which i playtested against a Tier One U/W Counterbalance Thorpter deck and a Casual Faerie deck.
Kindly let me know what you guys think about it. I removed Vindicate before knowing which decks i was playing against. Leonin Relic-Warder was added because i felt i had too many 3 casting cost spells and it feels cool to be able to Vial in artifact/enchantment removal.
Black & White Legacy Knights, Haakon's Confidant
2 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
4 Knight Exemplar
4 Knight of Meadowgrain
4 Dark Confidant
2 Mirran Crusader
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Stillmoon Cavalier
4 Student of Warfare
Spells [15]
4 AEther Vial
2 Buried Alive
2 Entomb
3 Nameless Inversion
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
6 Plains
4 Scrubland
5 Swamp
2 Retribution of the Meek
4 Extirpate
1 Haakon, Stromgald Scourge
4 Orim's Chant
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Vindicate
Matchup
Counter-Thropter W 5-1
Managed to beat Counter-throper very easily, the only game i lost was when i was struck with 1 Plains & 1 Swamps for a few turns which was sufficient for him to setup his combo and lock. For that game Haakon was in my graveyard ready to be cast into play but it was too late.
During our games my opponent was not impressed with Haakon saying he could Swords to Plowshares him, i promptly told him to keep his Plowshares for Haakon then.
Most of the games were a breeze for me because Leonin Relic-Warder was able to smash him combo to pieces. A first turn Vial will also be a very easy win for me. Stillmoon & Student was a huge source of damage against his deck which often draw his removal before i cast Leonin Relic-Warder.
Faerie-Curiosity W 4-1
Lost the only game because i was land-screwed again. The other games were also a breeze as I mostly use Vial to bypass his Spellsutter combo. The trick against this deck is to remove his Faerie early which is quite easy when i have 7 removals maindecked. Knight of Meadowgrain was also able to provide me with enough life-gain to overcome early damage from the flyers.
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[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I added 2 more land and took out the hawks for Mirran Crusader
I also took out sword of feast and famine and added a basilisk collar, to many 3cc equipments make them to exspensive to get out on to the table
In a matchup against Zoo it was just to rough, I need to work on that and will hopefully report some findings soon. Maybe i got unlucky as i didnt draw into any PtE or StP. My hand just wasnt as quick as what it sometimes is - any way that was just one match against Zoo. I need more than 1 before i make any deep analysis.
Mom is a key card. She protects your Knights from removal and makes them immune to damage when blocking until they are made indestructable. When this happens she then gives them protection from the opposing blockers making sure they get through. Just add equipment for even more control
GY hate or mill protection - Wheel of Sun and Moon
This could be nasty Privileged Position
I think by now it has been established which of the knights are the usual "suspects". Good to hear Mom is working well in your deck. I just brought a set of Moms and will try them too.
I feel the matchup against Zoo is unfavourable as they simply have way too many removals than us. Their creatures is cheaper and bigger as well. In most games my Zoo opponent does not even bother to remove the equipments as they can simply kill all my creatures. To make it worse, even a typical knight equipped with SoFI & SoLS is not big enough to kill Tarmogoyf. They probably have 10 removal spells or more for my Knight Exemplar so dont count on it sticking around for even a few turns. Mirran Crusader suffers the same fate with Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Path to Exile and Swords to Plowshares all over the place.
Some of the best ways to play Zoo will be to resolve a Jitte or Elspeth to stall the board PLUS killing their first turn Nacatl. I always kill the cat whenever i sees it. Never allow Nacatl to deal early damage as Zoo can easily finish you off before you can set up your board. Zoo is also fast in clearing their hand and relying on topdeck mode unlike our deck which tend to have more "gas" thanks to the Stoneforge toolbox & Elspeth.
Sideboarding Retribution of the Meek will be key in removing their biggies. Your StP and PtE will be sufficient in taking out their Wild Nacatl and Grim Lavamancer. From there you should have more "gas" to finish off your Zoo opponent.
I think Relic of Progenitus and Tormod's Crypt are better graveyard hate. They are cheaper to put into play and can be sacrifice in response to bounce or removal spells unlike Wheel of Sun and Moon.
Privileged Position has a nasty ability but at 5cc it is too expensive so i dont know how i can utilise it. It is too expensive as a maindeck card and i'm not sure how i can sideboard him. I dont think i'll ever use him. At 5cc i want a bomb, and this is not a bomb. This is probably a card which will enhance an already winning board. Take note that the card is useless if you dont have a strong board. It doesnt do anything if you are struggling in a game and is looking for a solution.
Thanks for suggesting this 2 cards, however as per my analysis i wont be adding it into the primer. Please let me know if my opinions on them needs to be corrected. I'm more than keen to find deserving cards to add into the primer.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
been thinking of board control against zoo
and its in the form of ratchet bomb or ghostly prison but im torn between the two
I need to start evaluating my matchups to define the perfect sideboard
Zoo - need a card to slow them down or kill the burst of 1cc creatures to get control but faster than a turn 4 ***
Need a card to destroy those decks that setup moat/challice of the void/trinisphere/smokestack
need a card to handle the GY
Need a card to handle Combo Decks
silence/Orims Chant could be good against zoo and combo, slowing zoo down a turn
Relic of Prognitus is a lovley card for GY hate
I got 4x Mental Mistep - which could be good against zoo as half the deck costs 1cc and good against high tide?
What do you think?
maybe a turn 2 chalice of the void?
Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
Pardon me for asking, how many sideboard cards do you intend to prepare? It seems like you are going to burst 15 cards here..
Against Zoo:
Personally i would'nt use ratchet bomb or ghostly prison because the former is too slow and the latter does not really stop Zoo. I play ghostly prison in armageddon Stax against Zoo and if it wasn't good enough even with mana denial i doubt it'll work here. You are correct, *** is definitely too slow, you would have taken too much early damage and Zoo will just finish you off with burn. chalice of the void is pointless as we don't play the likes of Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors. Actually i think just play more removals like 4x StP & PtE. Or even 4x Rune Halo so you stop Gofy and Kotr?
Against "moat/challice of the void/trinisphere/smokestack", just play 4x Leonin Relic-Warder. It gives you an extra body to beatdown at 2 mana and it is versatile enough to remove either enchantment or artifact.
Graveyard hate - the same old standard graveyard hate cards - just play more Relic of Progenitus & Tormod's Crypt or even 4x Leyline of the void
Combo deck - Orim's Chant and Leyline of Sanctity
Yeah, i was playing the B/W knights since Ice Age too. That was when i ran Knights of Stromgald/Order of White Shield with removals like StP/Vindicate and Contagion. Now Contagion can't kill anything. Now the meta is so quick i can't even Vindicate in time to save the game.
To be frank Knights deck was much stronger before NPH. Unfortunately Mental Misstep has affected creatures deck(especially with Vial) and further strengthened control deck. I have been hit with a first turn misstep these few weeks so frequently it makes a opening hand with Aether Vial nothing to be excited about. I had some good success against tournament decks previously which i will update my main primer along the way. You can tune in to the B/W Haakon Knights deck for updates as that is the current deck i'm playing now.
Mistveil Plains looks good on paper but i'm still worried with having a land which comes into play tapped messing up your tempo during the early game. Besides i try to run as few non-basic lands as possible. However it's worth trying if your meta is full of mid-game decks. My meta is mostly popular with mana/card denial decks so i can't play such a card which might affect consistency.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
I can't get my first few cards(Student of Warfare/Aether Vial) out due to MM and Stifle, the 2-drops get disrupted due to the discard spells. It makes a difficult matchup much harder to overcome at the moment.
I ever got thrashed by a Dark Horizons deck in my local tournament before even before the advent of MM.
Sorry for ranting but i'm quite disappointed with the creation of MM.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
One card I like to sideboard is Extirpate you can knock out all other copies of STPS, Path, Bolt, etc from zoo. Also, knock out counter suites with Split Second protection. Depending on if you sideboard in/are using discard you don't gain a disadvantage of being tagged by their first spell before you extirpate.
There are times when Haakon and the Equipment need to come out for a different strategy.
Depending on your Knights build, the 2 BB for Hymn makes it pretty impossible to cast during the early turns but Thoughtseize might be a good choice although don't forget you already have 4x Aether Vial & 4x Student of Warfare as your first drop. Casting Thoughtseize so you can cast a Vial or Student on the second turn is not how the deck should be played.
I'm not sure but extirpate sounds like a good inclusion, i might try it if i manage to get hold of that card.
Signature by Syndarion from Aeternal Studios!
[Deck/Primer] Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Darth Knights in Legacy
[Deck] Casual Knights in Legacy
[Deck/Primer] Modern Knights
[Deck/Primer] Modern Ninjas
LEGACY
Legacy Knights Variants WG,WU,WR,WB,W,B
Soldiers Stompy W
NinjaStill UB
FOWless Merfolk UW
Aggro Elves G
MODERN
Modern Knights Variants WG,BR
Modern Ninjas Variants UB,UG,UW,UWR
Modern Kithkins WR,W
been playing with this and seems much better than vial, Let me know what you think