I just really dislike Land Grant the few times I would want to reveal it T1 and not go off until T2 or later. It could easily lead my opponent to spend his turn on digging for an answer, or he could choose to hold mana open for a counterspell or Thoughtseize me in a situation where he'd otherwise drop a creature. Stuff like that. I think I might swap my current 3x Grant for 1x Grant and 2x G/X fetches. I still want one Grant because I'm running Personal Tutor. Maybe I'll keep the two Grants in my almost empty sideboard and swap them in G2 when my opponent knows my plan anyway.
Thanks for your replies.
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Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
This is my current list. It's a "plain" style list, trying to stay safe. As described in the above post, the plan is to swap the two fetches for Land Grants in game 2 when my opponent knows my plan anyway. I'm still keeping one in the main in case I need to tutor it.
I usually don't play Land Grant anymore, I think I have 3 in one of my lists but none of the others. If you are worried about it, feel free to ditch it. A less safe, but much, much stronger replacement is Summoner's Pact. It does exactly the same jobs (grabbing a mana source and colorfixing) without revealing your hand, and with the added benefit of flexibility and great utility mid-combo (grabbing Cantor or Skyshroud Cutter can draw you cards, or grab ESG for more mana when a Land Grant would either grab you a land you couldn't play, or just be dead because you were already holding a land).
Pact means that you are going off this turn, and absolutely cannot brick. But it is also just much better at doing everything Land Grant does and more. On a related note, I cannot think of very many situations in which you can cast Personal Tutor, but would not be better off just casting or tutoring Glimpse. If your hand is Tutor+Petal, you still want to tutor Glimpse and hope to topdeck mana, as your odds are waaaay better than topdecking Glimpse. If you have Glimpse+Tutor+Mana, you should probably either 1) cast Glimpse now and hold the tutor to either fetch Grapeshot or fetch another Glimpse if you brick, or 2) fetch a second Glimpse now and then cast 2x Glimpse turn 2.
4 lands seems a bit heavy, but not completely unreasonable. I'm weary of fetches since they can be Stifled, however. If you do replace Land Grant, I would suggest taking out the fetches as well and adding in 3 Pacts. If you want to run 4 Pact/4 ESG, you can remove two Kobolds. I've been testing at around 25 lately and it's fairly stable.
I also suggest at least trying a few games with only 1 Grapeshot maindeck. When you sideboard, you can play Grapeshot/Bushwhacker to cover all the bases, but one wincon maindeck has been enough for me. You're safe from everything except Mindbreak Trap thanks to Noxious Revival, and that's pretty rare nowadays. It's really more of a personal preference, since 2x Grapeshot does offer some reliability and safety, but just something to think about.
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That is a very interesting take on Cheeri0s, I like it! I'm not usually a fan of Manamorphose, but it seems necessary here. I don't think Rest and X-drops is as good as just running Scapegoat, but it is definitely very unexpected and cool.
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Did you guys see the Dragons of Tarkir cards? I loved Impact Tremors a lot, can replace the storm card as an alternate wincon mainly if you expect something like Flusterstorm or Mindbreak Trap.
If you're paying three mana, Beastmaster Ascension is already used as a win condition sometimes. Assault Formation produces a smaller version of the effect for only two mana, which could be relevant. My first thought is that it's not quite good enough, but it's worth trying out.
If you're paying three mana, Beastmaster Ascension is already used as a win condition sometimes. Assault Formation produces a smaller version of the effect for only two mana, which could be relevant. My first thought is that it's not quite good enough, but it's worth trying out.
playing around with Assault Formation's not going to give you a turn one win; but it does make the deck a little more stable. Assault Formation Can beat your opponent even when you deck stalls turn one and you only have a few creatures. It's ability used on a card like Shield Sphere combined with its static ability suddenly gives you a 6/6 beater for one. Also I like that it's green which keeps your colors down.
I'm currently flirting with legacy, and while I normally go for aggro/midrange turn dudes sideways decks I keep finding myself drawn to legacy decks like this and Oops All Spells. I'm surprised that Tinder Wall seems to be so unpopular, especially since the two main wincons are two mana red spells. Wouldn't it function as a cantrip ritual in this deck?
I'm taking the black version to an event tomorrow.
The primer recommends that we choose to be on the draw. Do most of you do that or not? I'm worried about cards like Force Spike, Daze and Spell Pierce.
I'm surprised that Tinder Wall seems to be so unpopular, especially since the two main wincons are two mana red spells. Wouldn't it function as a cantrip ritual in this deck?
With three Wild Cantor, four Lotus Petal and no other source for red I've never ever gone off and not found enough red to cast Grapeshot or even Goblin Bushwhacker, so you shouldn't weigh that in when you evaluate the card.
I'm taking the black version to an event tomorrow.
The primer recommends that we choose to be on the draw. Do most of you do that or not? I'm worried about cards like Force Spike, Daze and Spell Pierce.
Nobody plays Force Spike, so don't worry about that one.
If you know your opponent is blue then it may be better to take to play, especially if he knows what you're on as well because he'll only keep a hand with a counter. Otherwise, this deck is just faster than everything else when it works, so having the extra card to reduce the odds of fizzling is much more valuable than going first. Besides, unless you have a turn one kill then you're not going to do anything but pass, giving your opponent both the play and the draw.
I'm surprised that Tinder Wall seems to be so unpopular, especially since the two main wincons are two mana red spells. Wouldn't it function as a cantrip ritual in this deck?
With three Wild Cantor, four Lotus Petal and no other source for red I've never ever gone off and not found enough red to cast Grapeshot or even Goblin Bushwhacker, so you shouldn't weigh that in when you evaluate the card.
True. We're not really interested in ritual effects, we only need one mana for most of the game. And by the time you need any red mana you should have drawn most of your deck, so it's highly unlikely to set everything else up but then whiff on mana/colors.
I see. I had another thought since my last post: I own a Gaea's Cradle, what can we do in terms of a Cradle wincon package? Hardcasting Emrakul was the first thing that came to mind (needs 15 cheerios and gets random free wins against Show and Tell) and Craterhoof Behemoth gets there too (14 cheerios). Those cards dodge Leyline of Sanctity and Flusterstorm, so if you switch back and forth between games your opponents will have to roll the dice on their board options.
Fear Spell Pierce and FoW. You already have an answer for Daze - Elvish Spirit Guide
I used it sometimes in my old monogreen Berserk Infect. Normally you tilt your opponent...
I like to have a Gaea's Cradle in the sideboard, but I don't know about running something like Emrakul. We're inconsistent enough as it is, I wouldn't want the added requirements of having to find both the Cradle and Emrakul, and with my land drop still available. It's also bad as a maindeck land because it can't make mana for Glimpse until you drop a creature first, which is essentially a mulligan.
Cradle is already an answer to Flusterstorm without running a different win condition. It won't quite match the Storm count, but you can pay to keep as many Grapeshot copies as you have creatures, which should be enough to come away with the win.
As for Leyline, the typical second wincon is either Goblin Bushwhacker or Beastmaster Ascension. I like the Bushwhacker myself because it's a mana cheaper and usually kills the same turn, and can keep the chain going in a pinch.
Craterhoof seems worse and worse the more I think about it, so let's set it aside for now.
The one turn delay is precisely why I don't like Beastmaster Ascension for this deck. That delay is sort of there with Emrakul, but getting an extra turn then wiping their board nullifies that concern. I thought of the land drop issue, and had the idea of swapping an Explore for a Land Grant so that you're not precluded from dropping a land before attempting to go off; not sure if that's insane or not. The 5 life from Skyshroud Cutter is not really a drawback with Emrakul, so you're free to to use 4 if you want; not sure how much of an advantage that is having not played the deck.
In Cradle lists, run maindeck Beastmaster, all four Cradle, and Summoner's Pact/Mistcutter Hydra. It's dangerous, but you can also do Dryad Arbor and 4 Crop Rotation.
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I'm chiming in on my experience with this deck over the last couple of months, as well as my opinions on the best wincons. I've been running this version: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-09-14-legacy-cheerios/ off and on at local legacy tournaments and (as noted earlier in this thread) a GP. Overall, I strongly believe this deck (no matter what version) is marginally worse than Belcher (the other premier turn-one deck in Legacy). That said, I firmly believe Cheeri0s is vastly more fun. Literally everyone I play against is happy to see me go off. That said, there's a couple points I'd like to make.
1) Summoners Pact. It's such a gas card. It does everything you need. The problem is that it strictly limits the kind of win condition the deck can run. All of these two turn plans are strictly impossible if you plan on running pact. That said, this is the card that beats you the most. It stabilizes the combo nicely but is literally the reason we lose to ourselves (in my experience, roughly 20% of the time).
2) Play/Draw. Blind, it's incredibly necessary to shoot for a turn 1. I'm aware that the percentage of turn 1s is on the order of 35-45% of hands, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. This deck lives and dies on opponent's disruption. Giving an opponent 1 turn to land disruption is really bad. Problem cards: any discard (except cabal therapy), any counterspell, cantrips into counterspells, permanent hate (chalice of the void, trinisphere, Thalia, etc). If I'm aware of the matchup, there are actually very few legacy decks I'm willing to take the drawn on: Death and Taxes (game 1, but not 2 or 3); Nic Fit (game 1, not 2 or 3); Shardless BUG (game 1, maybe 2 or 3); Any Variant of Burn (note, combo *must* be achieved before Eidolon comes down); Maverick (games 1, 2, 3); Lands (Game 1, not 2 or 3). Everything else err on the side of playing rather than drawing.
3) Combo Protection Totally honestly, I've never ever been able to protect my glimpse *and* go off. I've tried pretty much everything, autumn's veil, pact of negation, silence, etc. The key problem is, you're often so down on resources that it's impossible to go off. I have had much success with protecting the wincon. Obviously, having your deck in your hand helps with that. To protect win cons, I've had the most success with a singleton silence cast directly before you go for the win. If it gets countered, you can recycle it and go for it again. Silence just stops any meaningful interaction.
4) Land Grant There's much debate about this card. Adding to storm count is irrelevant. The points that sway me are A) No life loss from fetching B) Thinning past the first land C) Counterspell bait. I'll speak more about the life loss in the next point. Thinning, while a very very marginal thing is not irrelevant. Getting the second (or third if you play 3) land out of the deck can be very good. Bait, I have had people counterspell my landgrant since I have no other mana sources in hand. That's *totally okay*. The deck plays way more mana sources than glimpses. As such, I'd rather lose a mana than a glimpse.
5) Shock Lands/Life Loss I have had mixed success with using shocks over duals. Ideally, they should be duals but I'm a cheap bastard. Between the shocks, revivals and probes, you deal a lot of damage to yourself. Any marginal ways to improve that is important. I have been locked out from casting a revival because of a too low life total. As such, I recommend using duals and no fetches if at all feasible.
6) Win Conditions As I hinted at above, two-turn wins are impossible if you run pacts. As such, my greatest success has been grapeshot game one, with laboratory maniac game 2/3. Grapeshot is ridiculous game one. No one holds up stifle during your combo. Similarly, it wrecks conditional counterspells. Also, pretty much no-one plays flusterstorm main. Games 2, Maniac shines. It blanks your opponents Stifles, Flusterstorms, Spell Pierces. Similarly, it plays into the fact that your opponent has likely removed all their creature removal/red blasts. Backed up by silence, Maniac plays around things like leyline of sanctity, moat, and most other permanent based answers. Obviously, Bushwacker does the same thing for one less mana, but Maniac plays around even more things.
7) Tutors Personal Tutor vs Gamble. Gamble has been, lackluster. It does what you want, in color, but I've never been happy to see a gamble either pre-combo or during the combo. That said, it can get *anything* and it can help you out of a jam unlike Personal Tutor. PT is better if you're going with a slower, more stable version of this deck. When you have time to sculpt your hand, PT is better. In the end, they're both really bad. If we could play burning wish, I'd be much happier.
I'm more than happy to expand on any of these points. I'd like to go over some matchups quickly.
Miracles (UWr Control): Game 1 is fairly positive. They run few counterspells and Cheeri0s is much faster than Balance/Top. Needless to say, if they get Balance/Top down, it's all over. If you're running a creature win con, be very careful of Terminus off the top. Games 2 and 3 are very very rough. Most Miracles list side into an insane amount of counterspells. At this point, just jam the combo as early as possible and pray.
Cards to Play Around: Game 1: FoW, Spell Pierce Game 2/3: FoW, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm
Show and Tell/Omni Tell: Game 1 is fairly positive. They have a ton of disruption, but will likely spend the first turn cantriping for their own combo. Once they know what's up, games 2 and 3 become nearly impossible. Between the insane number of counterspells and cunning wish, you just have to jam and pray.
Cards to Play Around: Game 1: FoW, Spell Pierce Game 2/3: FoW, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Trickbind
Death and Taxes: This is a very weird matchup. D&T plays a ton of hate, but it all comes down no sooner than turn 2. As such, take heavy advantage of your combo and crush them. Games 2 and 3 get no better for D&T unless they play mindbreak trap (unlikely) or silence (also unlikely). You literally can't beat any of their hate (Thalia, Canonist, Spirit of the Labyrinth) so don't even try. Try not to play into a wasteland.
Cards to Play Around: Game 1: Nothing Game 2/3: Silence, Mindbreak Trap
BUG Delver: Counterspells and Discard! Yay! Very hard to win game 1, and it gets worse post board. I cannot stress enough how important is to go for it, no matter what. If they don't have it, you win. If they do have it, you weren't winning by waiting anyway. At least make an effort to play around Daze. Again, avoid playing into a wasteland if you can.
Cards to Play Around: Game 1: FoW, Daze, Thoughtseize/IoK Game 2/3: FoW, Daze, Thoughtseize/IoK, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce
RUG Delver: Counterspells! This matchup is not terrible game 1. Your turn 0 combo should be good. Often these lists don't play a full 4 FoW, so you can slide through. Additionally, play around stifle if you can, same goes for wasteland. Games 2/3 it gets almost as bad as BUG Delver.
Cards to Play Around: Game 1: FoW, Daze, Stifle Game 2/3: FoW, Daze, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Stifle
If anyone has any specific matchups, I can go over those as well. As always, try to enjoy the most fun deck in Legacy. People will love that you're playing it. Try to be a good sport when you smash people turn 0, but also be a good sport when you beat yourself, or they crush you with multiple answers.
TL;DR Play this deck into a non-blue meta and smash face.
So I'm doing some goldfish testing with Assault Formation and I think I like it as a 1-of. It's not as quick as the deck typically tries to be, but it's a solid win condition when you're not able to combo off. I just dealt an opening 7 of 2x Phyrexian Walker, Crookshank Kobolds, Memnite, Noxious Revival, Land Grant, and Assault Formation. That's attacking for 8 on turn 2, without drawing any cards besides those 7. The bottom line for me is that it's one more card that can make an opening hand keepable, which is a pretty big deal in this deck.
Assault Formation is an interesting card. Much like Beastmaster Ascension, it turns our Cheerios into real creatures. As always, these one card enablers are soft to permission though. The question is, is assault formation better than other win conditions? Potentially it adds a ton of value to the Gaea's Cradle lists. Giving us a late game mana sink seems very good. Particularly since it makes running Shield Sphere an actually positive thing. I'd like to see a list like that. I'm not sure it has a place in the all-out combo list though, nor does it have a spot in the Multani's Presence lists.
I'm planning on taking this to whatever Legacy events are at PAX Prime to get in some practice before GP Seattle/Tacoma. You mentioned that Gamble has been lackluster for you and Autumn's Veil hasn't done anything for you either. Have you replaced those slots with anything that's worked out better for you?
I've always wanted to play a artifact version of this deck, but have always been choked on the sheer number of artifact creatures. However, I just realized that Wizards gave us Hangarback Walker, giving us 28 "0" cmc artifacts!
This artifact version let's us have a "free" Scapegoat with Retract, but the downside is that our Retracts are going to do less for us, with twelve of our Cheeri0s going to the bin. I feel as if it's worth the risk with the majority of our Cheeri0s living after being cast, along with our Noxious Revival doubling as card draw for all of Cheeri0s that do bit the dust once they hit the field. We also now only have three colors, which doesn't matter a whole lot in a deck like this, but I do enjoy it in theory. I was also messing around with a build that looked more like this;
Just got back from GP SeaTac. Felt ok about how I did; made one major play mistake that ended up giving me a worse record than I would have hoped for but the thing that mostly killed me was Blue.
Round 1 - Burn
Game 1, won the die roll, went off on turn one.
Game 2, was running through the combo and got to the point where my hand was Glimpse, Scape, Cheerio, Land Grant. I had sided in Lab Man and Breeding Pool for safety against Leyline. I ended up deciding to fetch Breeding Pool and casting Glimpse and then bricked when I cast the Cheerio. What I should have done was grabbed Temple Garden and Scapegoated.
Game 3, both mulled to 5. Turn 3 or 4 (don't remember which) I had Glimpse and a mana source, but I had enough life that I wanted to wait a turn to try and draw through one more card's worth of chaff. He drops Eidolon which I'm able to kill with a drawn Lotus Petal and the Grapeshot in my hand, but it took me low enough he killed me next turn.
Opponent thought the deck was hilarious. It was a fun round even though I punted game 2.
Round 2 - Burn
Game 1, won the die roll, went off on turn one.
Game 2, he plays mountain Swiftspear, I go off on my turn. He's getting pretty salty through this game as he realizes that I'm going inevitable but it isn't just an instant "I win" like with Belcher.
Round 3 - Sultai Pod
Game 1, won the die roll, opening 7 is Glimpse and 6 Cheerios. I figure I can draw into mana, so I pass. On his turn he casts Therapy naming Ritual (figuring I have Oops All Spells). Turn 2 I don't draw mana and drop a Shield Sphere. He drops Dryad Arbor and flashes back to kill Glimpse. He then proceeds to get the counter mana up and keeps me from getting anything going.
Game 2, no turn one play, turn two try to go off but he Envelops my Glimpse. Don't draw another one or a Revival. He liked the idea of my deck but did agree that it's super fragile.
Round 4 - Sultai Delver
Game 1, he keeps countering every single thing I try to do. Whether it's Pact to get a mana source or Glimpse when I hit lands. Just can't get anything to stick.
Game 2, mull to 5 and I have utter junk. I decline to mull to four and end up turn one getting out Memnite and Cantor to go for some early beats and hoping I draw the Assault Formation I boarded into (or hell, the Signal Pest). He ends up burning Abrupt Decay on both before getting out some dudes while I sit there drawing absolute junk.
Like everyone but my round two opponent he loved the combo. And when I was going off I got some admiring remarks from people around me. So success in the fun factor of the deck, but the consistency for me was lousy.
Nice job, glad people enjoyed it, and I hope you enjoyed it most of all! It sounds like you did your best and had a great time.
A few suggestions about your list:
1) No tutors makes the deck a lot more fragile. You really need to maximize the odds of opening with Glimpse, and Gambles or Personal Tutors are the best way to do that.
2) My current opinion of Land Grant is that it is only good if you run a single Skyshroud Cutter and 4 Pacts. If you keep it in, I recommend cutting a Kobold for Cutter.
3) 4 Scapegoats, no questions asked. Once you start rolling, the only two cards that make the chain "inevitable" are a second Glimpse or a Scapegoat. Maximize your odds of hitting the golden combo cards.
4) You can probably run fewer zero drops, as weird as that sounds. I would say that 23 or 24 is probably the bare minimum, but slots are extremely valuable in this deck, so even just going down to 26 gives you so much more space to work with. I believe my current deck has 27, though I'd have to double check.
I hope the deck keeps giving you good times and Turn 1 wins for as long as you can play it!
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Thanks for your replies.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Any feedback is appreciated.
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
4 Crimson Kobolds
4 Crookshank Kobolds
4 Kobolds of Kher Keep
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Personal Tutor
4 Scapegoat
4 Noxious Revival
3 Wild Cantor
1 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Brain Freeze
1 Goblin Bushwhacker
2 Land Grant
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Pact means that you are going off this turn, and absolutely cannot brick. But it is also just much better at doing everything Land Grant does and more. On a related note, I cannot think of very many situations in which you can cast Personal Tutor, but would not be better off just casting or tutoring Glimpse. If your hand is Tutor+Petal, you still want to tutor Glimpse and hope to topdeck mana, as your odds are waaaay better than topdecking Glimpse. If you have Glimpse+Tutor+Mana, you should probably either 1) cast Glimpse now and hold the tutor to either fetch Grapeshot or fetch another Glimpse if you brick, or 2) fetch a second Glimpse now and then cast 2x Glimpse turn 2.
4 lands seems a bit heavy, but not completely unreasonable. I'm weary of fetches since they can be Stifled, however. If you do replace Land Grant, I would suggest taking out the fetches as well and adding in 3 Pacts. If you want to run 4 Pact/4 ESG, you can remove two Kobolds. I've been testing at around 25 lately and it's fairly stable.
I also suggest at least trying a few games with only 1 Grapeshot maindeck. When you sideboard, you can play Grapeshot/Bushwhacker to cover all the bases, but one wincon maindeck has been enough for me. You're safe from everything except Mindbreak Trap thanks to Noxious Revival, and that's pretty rare nowadays. It's really more of a personal preference, since 2x Grapeshot does offer some reliability and safety, but just something to think about.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
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Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
Curse of Predation is better
playing around with Assault Formation's not going to give you a turn one win; but it does make the deck a little more stable. Assault Formation Can beat your opponent even when you deck stalls turn one and you only have a few creatures. It's ability used on a card like Shield Sphere combined with its static ability suddenly gives you a 6/6 beater for one. Also I like that it's green which keeps your colors down.
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/02-04-15-nfG-assault-formation/
Is what I have been playing around with. Any suggestions are welcome.
Pauper: Burn
Modern: Burn
Legacy: Burn
EDH: Marath, Will of the Wild - Ramp/Combo | Anafenza the Foremost - French | Uril, the Miststalker - Voltron | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Goodstuff
Ghost Council of Orzhov - Tokens | Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - Control | Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Tiny Leaders
The primer recommends that we choose to be on the draw. Do most of you do that or not? I'm worried about cards like Force Spike, Daze and Spell Pierce.
With three Wild Cantor, four Lotus Petal and no other source for red I've never ever gone off and not found enough red to cast Grapeshot or even Goblin Bushwhacker, so you shouldn't weigh that in when you evaluate the card.
Stay reasonable, be mindful of your expectations and don't feed the trolls.
Doomsdayin'
Nobody plays Force Spike, so don't worry about that one.
If you know your opponent is blue then it may be better to take to play, especially if he knows what you're on as well because he'll only keep a hand with a counter. Otherwise, this deck is just faster than everything else when it works, so having the extra card to reduce the odds of fizzling is much more valuable than going first. Besides, unless you have a turn one kill then you're not going to do anything but pass, giving your opponent both the play and the draw.
True. We're not really interested in ritual effects, we only need one mana for most of the game. And by the time you need any red mana you should have drawn most of your deck, so it's highly unlikely to set everything else up but then whiff on mana/colors.
Pauper: Burn
Modern: Burn
Legacy: Burn
EDH: Marath, Will of the Wild - Ramp/Combo | Anafenza the Foremost - French | Uril, the Miststalker - Voltron | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Goodstuff
Ghost Council of Orzhov - Tokens | Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - Control | Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Tiny Leaders
I used it sometimes in my old monogreen Berserk Infect. Normally you tilt your opponent...
Commander: Child of Alara BURGW, Adeliz, the Cinder Wind UR
Tiny Leaders: Gwafa, Hazid Profiteer UW
Regular Pauper: Stompy G, Mono-G Tron G, Infect G
Cradle is already an answer to Flusterstorm without running a different win condition. It won't quite match the Storm count, but you can pay to keep as many Grapeshot copies as you have creatures, which should be enough to come away with the win.
As for Leyline, the typical second wincon is either Goblin Bushwhacker or Beastmaster Ascension. I like the Bushwhacker myself because it's a mana cheaper and usually kills the same turn, and can keep the chain going in a pinch.
The one turn delay is precisely why I don't like Beastmaster Ascension for this deck. That delay is sort of there with Emrakul, but getting an extra turn then wiping their board nullifies that concern. I thought of the land drop issue, and had the idea of swapping an Explore for a Land Grant so that you're not precluded from dropping a land before attempting to go off; not sure if that's insane or not. The 5 life from Skyshroud Cutter is not really a drawback with Emrakul, so you're free to to use 4 if you want; not sure how much of an advantage that is having not played the deck.
Pauper: Burn
Modern: Burn
Legacy: Burn
EDH: Marath, Will of the Wild - Ramp/Combo | Anafenza the Foremost - French | Uril, the Miststalker - Voltron | Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury - Goodstuff
Ghost Council of Orzhov - Tokens | Lazav, Dimir Mastermind - Control | Isamaru, Hound of Konda - Tiny Leaders
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
I'm chiming in on my experience with this deck over the last couple of months, as well as my opinions on the best wincons. I've been running this version: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-09-14-legacy-cheerios/ off and on at local legacy tournaments and (as noted earlier in this thread) a GP. Overall, I strongly believe this deck (no matter what version) is marginally worse than Belcher (the other premier turn-one deck in Legacy). That said, I firmly believe Cheeri0s is vastly more fun. Literally everyone I play against is happy to see me go off. That said, there's a couple points I'd like to make.
1) Summoners Pact. It's such a gas card. It does everything you need. The problem is that it strictly limits the kind of win condition the deck can run. All of these two turn plans are strictly impossible if you plan on running pact. That said, this is the card that beats you the most. It stabilizes the combo nicely but is literally the reason we lose to ourselves (in my experience, roughly 20% of the time).
2) Play/Draw. Blind, it's incredibly necessary to shoot for a turn 1. I'm aware that the percentage of turn 1s is on the order of 35-45% of hands, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try. This deck lives and dies on opponent's disruption. Giving an opponent 1 turn to land disruption is really bad. Problem cards: any discard (except cabal therapy), any counterspell, cantrips into counterspells, permanent hate (chalice of the void, trinisphere, Thalia, etc). If I'm aware of the matchup, there are actually very few legacy decks I'm willing to take the drawn on: Death and Taxes (game 1, but not 2 or 3); Nic Fit (game 1, not 2 or 3); Shardless BUG (game 1, maybe 2 or 3); Any Variant of Burn (note, combo *must* be achieved before Eidolon comes down); Maverick (games 1, 2, 3); Lands (Game 1, not 2 or 3). Everything else err on the side of playing rather than drawing.
3) Combo Protection Totally honestly, I've never ever been able to protect my glimpse *and* go off. I've tried pretty much everything, autumn's veil, pact of negation, silence, etc. The key problem is, you're often so down on resources that it's impossible to go off. I have had much success with protecting the wincon. Obviously, having your deck in your hand helps with that. To protect win cons, I've had the most success with a singleton silence cast directly before you go for the win. If it gets countered, you can recycle it and go for it again. Silence just stops any meaningful interaction.
4) Land Grant There's much debate about this card. Adding to storm count is irrelevant. The points that sway me are A) No life loss from fetching B) Thinning past the first land C) Counterspell bait. I'll speak more about the life loss in the next point. Thinning, while a very very marginal thing is not irrelevant. Getting the second (or third if you play 3) land out of the deck can be very good. Bait, I have had people counterspell my landgrant since I have no other mana sources in hand. That's *totally okay*. The deck plays way more mana sources than glimpses. As such, I'd rather lose a mana than a glimpse.
5) Shock Lands/Life Loss I have had mixed success with using shocks over duals. Ideally, they should be duals but I'm a cheap bastard. Between the shocks, revivals and probes, you deal a lot of damage to yourself. Any marginal ways to improve that is important. I have been locked out from casting a revival because of a too low life total. As such, I recommend using duals and no fetches if at all feasible.
6) Win Conditions As I hinted at above, two-turn wins are impossible if you run pacts. As such, my greatest success has been grapeshot game one, with laboratory maniac game 2/3. Grapeshot is ridiculous game one. No one holds up stifle during your combo. Similarly, it wrecks conditional counterspells. Also, pretty much no-one plays flusterstorm main. Games 2, Maniac shines. It blanks your opponents Stifles, Flusterstorms, Spell Pierces. Similarly, it plays into the fact that your opponent has likely removed all their creature removal/red blasts. Backed up by silence, Maniac plays around things like leyline of sanctity, moat, and most other permanent based answers. Obviously, Bushwacker does the same thing for one less mana, but Maniac plays around even more things.
7) Tutors Personal Tutor vs Gamble. Gamble has been, lackluster. It does what you want, in color, but I've never been happy to see a gamble either pre-combo or during the combo. That said, it can get *anything* and it can help you out of a jam unlike Personal Tutor. PT is better if you're going with a slower, more stable version of this deck. When you have time to sculpt your hand, PT is better. In the end, they're both really bad. If we could play burning wish, I'd be much happier.
I'm more than happy to expand on any of these points. I'd like to go over some matchups quickly.
Miracles (UWr Control): Game 1 is fairly positive. They run few counterspells and Cheeri0s is much faster than Balance/Top. Needless to say, if they get Balance/Top down, it's all over. If you're running a creature win con, be very careful of Terminus off the top. Games 2 and 3 are very very rough. Most Miracles list side into an insane amount of counterspells. At this point, just jam the combo as early as possible and pray.
Cards to Play Around: Game 1: FoW, Spell Pierce Game 2/3: FoW, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm
Show and Tell/Omni Tell: Game 1 is fairly positive. They have a ton of disruption, but will likely spend the first turn cantriping for their own combo. Once they know what's up, games 2 and 3 become nearly impossible. Between the insane number of counterspells and cunning wish, you just have to jam and pray.
Cards to Play Around: Game 1: FoW, Spell Pierce Game 2/3: FoW, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Trickbind
Death and Taxes: This is a very weird matchup. D&T plays a ton of hate, but it all comes down no sooner than turn 2. As such, take heavy advantage of your combo and crush them. Games 2 and 3 get no better for D&T unless they play mindbreak trap (unlikely) or silence (also unlikely). You literally can't beat any of their hate (Thalia, Canonist, Spirit of the Labyrinth) so don't even try. Try not to play into a wasteland.
Cards to Play Around: Game 1: Nothing Game 2/3: Silence, Mindbreak Trap
BUG Delver: Counterspells and Discard! Yay! Very hard to win game 1, and it gets worse post board. I cannot stress enough how important is to go for it, no matter what. If they don't have it, you win. If they do have it, you weren't winning by waiting anyway. At least make an effort to play around Daze. Again, avoid playing into a wasteland if you can.
Cards to Play Around: Game 1: FoW, Daze, Thoughtseize/IoK Game 2/3: FoW, Daze, Thoughtseize/IoK, Flusterstorm, Spell Pierce
RUG Delver: Counterspells! This matchup is not terrible game 1. Your turn 0 combo should be good. Often these lists don't play a full 4 FoW, so you can slide through. Additionally, play around stifle if you can, same goes for wasteland. Games 2/3 it gets almost as bad as BUG Delver.
Cards to Play Around: Game 1: FoW, Daze, Stifle Game 2/3: FoW, Daze, Spell Pierce, Flusterstorm, Stifle
If anyone has any specific matchups, I can go over those as well. As always, try to enjoy the most fun deck in Legacy. People will love that you're playing it. Try to be a good sport when you smash people turn 0, but also be a good sport when you beat yourself, or they crush you with multiple answers.
TL;DR Play this deck into a non-blue meta and smash face.
-Belisaurius
4 Phyrexian Marauder
4 Shifting Wall
4 Memnite
4 Ornithopter
4 Phyrexian Walker
4 Shield Sphere
3 Wild Cantor
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
3 Land Grant
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Noxious Revival
3 Gamble
4 Retract
1 Grapeshot
1 Brain Freeze
1 Breeding Pool
1 Stomping Ground
This artifact version let's us have a "free" Scapegoat with Retract, but the downside is that our Retracts are going to do less for us, with twelve of our Cheeri0s going to the bin. I feel as if it's worth the risk with the majority of our Cheeri0s living after being cast, along with our Noxious Revival doubling as card draw for all of Cheeri0s that do bit the dust once they hit the field. We also now only have three colors, which doesn't matter a whole lot in a deck like this, but I do enjoy it in theory. I was also messing around with a build that looked more like this;
+3 Personal Tutor
+2 Songs of the Damned
+1 Tendrils of Agony
+1 Overgrown Tomb
-3 Gamble
-1 Hangarback Walker
-1 Grapeshot
-1 Retract
-1 Stomping Ground
I went with the less mana hungry build for now, but if testing goes well I may still try the Tendrils build. Thoughts? Ideas?
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/cheeri0s-17-06-13-2/
Round 1 - Burn
Game 1, won the die roll, went off on turn one.
Game 2, was running through the combo and got to the point where my hand was Glimpse, Scape, Cheerio, Land Grant. I had sided in Lab Man and Breeding Pool for safety against Leyline. I ended up deciding to fetch Breeding Pool and casting Glimpse and then bricked when I cast the Cheerio. What I should have done was grabbed Temple Garden and Scapegoated.
Game 3, both mulled to 5. Turn 3 or 4 (don't remember which) I had Glimpse and a mana source, but I had enough life that I wanted to wait a turn to try and draw through one more card's worth of chaff. He drops Eidolon which I'm able to kill with a drawn Lotus Petal and the Grapeshot in my hand, but it took me low enough he killed me next turn.
Opponent thought the deck was hilarious. It was a fun round even though I punted game 2.
Round 2 - Burn
Game 1, won the die roll, went off on turn one.
Game 2, he plays mountain Swiftspear, I go off on my turn. He's getting pretty salty through this game as he realizes that I'm going inevitable but it isn't just an instant "I win" like with Belcher.
Round 3 - Sultai Pod
Game 1, won the die roll, opening 7 is Glimpse and 6 Cheerios. I figure I can draw into mana, so I pass. On his turn he casts Therapy naming Ritual (figuring I have Oops All Spells). Turn 2 I don't draw mana and drop a Shield Sphere. He drops Dryad Arbor and flashes back to kill Glimpse. He then proceeds to get the counter mana up and keeps me from getting anything going.
Game 2, no turn one play, turn two try to go off but he Envelops my Glimpse. Don't draw another one or a Revival. He liked the idea of my deck but did agree that it's super fragile.
Round 4 - Sultai Delver
Game 1, he keeps countering every single thing I try to do. Whether it's Pact to get a mana source or Glimpse when I hit lands. Just can't get anything to stick.
Game 2, mull to 5 and I have utter junk. I decline to mull to four and end up turn one getting out Memnite and Cantor to go for some early beats and hoping I draw the Assault Formation I boarded into (or hell, the Signal Pest). He ends up burning Abrupt Decay on both before getting out some dudes while I sit there drawing absolute junk.
Like everyone but my round two opponent he loved the combo. And when I was going off I got some admiring remarks from people around me. So success in the fun factor of the deck, but the consistency for me was lousy.
A few suggestions about your list:
1) No tutors makes the deck a lot more fragile. You really need to maximize the odds of opening with Glimpse, and Gambles or Personal Tutors are the best way to do that.
2) My current opinion of Land Grant is that it is only good if you run a single Skyshroud Cutter and 4 Pacts. If you keep it in, I recommend cutting a Kobold for Cutter.
3) 4 Scapegoats, no questions asked. Once you start rolling, the only two cards that make the chain "inevitable" are a second Glimpse or a Scapegoat. Maximize your odds of hitting the golden combo cards.
4) You can probably run fewer zero drops, as weird as that sounds. I would say that 23 or 24 is probably the bare minimum, but slots are extremely valuable in this deck, so even just going down to 26 gives you so much more space to work with. I believe my current deck has 27, though I'd have to double check.
I hope the deck keeps giving you good times and Turn 1 wins for as long as you can play it!
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.