If anyone has the stuff for this ill gladly pick up all of it. I have officially decided to play this at scg charlotte at the end of the month and currently own pretty much nothing. Ive tested on cockatrice quite a bit but i need to start picking it all up now. just pm me.
Personally I would replace the 4 mained Git probes with your 4 Noxious Revivals. Revival has helped me get back Forced Glimpse of Natures for a turn 2 kill many many times. It can also get you back a Flusterstormed Grapeshot, recycle fast mana Like Lotus Petals, and modify the number of cards left in your deck so that you don't deck yourself. It can also just add a ton of Storm counters, I've had games where I just cycled Revivals with themselves until I was at 1 or 2 life, and got another 8 Storm count.
I can do that. I originally had the probes in there as a way to see if the path was clear and replace itself, but noxious revival can just get it back for me and has those added benefits.
I originally had four Probes for basically the same reason, but after a while I started to realize that seeing whether the path is clear doesn't actually do anything. If they don't have an answer you win anyway (as long as you don't fizzle), and if they do have an answer you still need a way to deal with it. The information is worth something, but it doesn't help you do anything about whatever they have; this isn't a deck that really gets a lot of value out of information. Revival is a great replacement because it "answers" all the things you're trying to play around by seeing their hand, and also works the same against discard.
Hey guys, I have been testing this and the modern version as well for about 2 weeks now. I am a huge combo player so i can see lines of play with decks very well. Here is the list I have been testing. I feel like it is missing.... something. I just cant put my finger on what will take it from being "okay" to awesome. Im not expecting to top an open with this, but Id like to optimize as much as possible for local tourneys where winning in a fun way would be great.
If you wish to play a Cradle build, I highly suggest running 3-4 Beastmaster Ascensions. The ability to open without Glimpse and just go "Dudes, Cradle, BMA, pass" is very, very strong. I also suggest Summoner's Pacts, to fetch Elvish Spirit Guide, Wild Cantor, Skyshroud Cutter, and supersecret tech Mistcutter Hydra, which is REALLY REALLY GOOD in Cradle builds.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I just tried this deck with brainfreeze and grapeshot mainboarded. It's such a hilarious deck to use in MTGO but for the opponent it has to be such a boring experience.
And it only costed me roughly 20 bucks to make because I just needed kobolds and glimpses.
Though I did have a problem against a miracles player who FoW'd my first glimpse then casted meddling mage on the second.
If you wish to play a Cradle build, I highly suggest running 3-4 . The ability to open without Glimpse and just go "Dudes, Cradle, BMA, pass" is very, very strong. I also suggest , to fetch , , , and supersecret tech , which is REALLY REALLY GOOD in Cradle builds.
If Death and Taxes is a known part of the meta, do you think it's worth running a couple Gut Shot in the board for the likes of Thalia and the new Spirit, as well as Canonist? They'll be on the play for at least one game, and if we keep a hand with, for example, Land and Tutor but no Glimpse, then they'll get a two drop on us that we probably need to kill before going off. Still costs a mana to kill Thalia, but that's miles better than needing two mana.
Here's the thing, Cheerios is not a traditional Storm deck like ANT where you can pack a fairly large disruption suite and still have a strong ritual/tutor or ritual/draw engine. We play more like a Belcher deck, where speed is the answer to every problem. Cards like Thalia are obviously a problem, but they come down turn 2 at the earliest (barring some variant of D&T that uses mana rocks), so the best way I've found to deal with them is to just crush them turn 1 and relish in the look of defeat the have as they look at their hand and wish they weren't special snowflakes and had just playing something blue. Obviously that can't always happen, but when you start adding too many answers like Gutshot you make the somewhat fragile draw engine we have even more fragile, which can make the deck slower on average. Especially since for cards like that to be even a somewhat reliable draw, you'll need 4, which is just too big a hit. Then since you slow down, more hate is able to effect you, and you need more answers....... Eventually you end up with a different deck that's running 10 card discard suites, Silence, etc, and doesn't win till turn 5.
As far as I'm concerned, Cheerios is a turn 1 deck, and building around that is what has worked best for me. The only things I worry about are cards that come out turn 1, like Force of Will, Daze, Chalice of the Void, etc. Fitting in answers for those cards already fills up a sideboard, so I just don't see any reason to worry about things like Thalia and Cannonist that come out turn 2. Also minimize how many cards you have to remove, every cheerio, tutor, or mana source you take out is a hit on the reliability percentage of the deck. So for example, instead of siding in Wispmares or Chain of Vapors or something to deal with Leyline of Sanctity, just switch out Grapeshot for Goblin Bushwhacker. With that, you've answered that problem without a drop in reliability or speed.
Playing all-in super fast combo decks can often require a way of thinking that's different than "normal" decks. You need to balance speed and reliability of your combo against dealing with the hate people board in. Just throwing in answers for cards that stop you may actually hurt you, if they effect your speed enough.
I definitely understand what you're saying about needing the speed, but D&T specifically has access to all three of those hate bears after board and they'll be on the play at least one game. If I have a hand that can win turn two, it's way too greedy to mulligan looking for a turn one. I would like to have outs in my deck so that if they are able to drop a turn two Canonist or Spirit (which we absolutely cannot win through) I can at least draw into something that lets me go off at some point. I don't think you need to run four because it's a matchup where you aren't on an incredibly fast clock, so you've got some time to draw into it.
The deck has no other disruption besides those x/1s, so I think in boarding I could afford to shave one or two of Noxious Revival and/or Wild Cantor (it's not actually mana, just filter) for probably two Gut Shot. Considering I would often have really thought about bringing in one or two Ingot Chewer just for Canonist, I think a couple Gut Shot that can kill any of the three for 0 mana is better. Assuming I can make the space in my 15 of course.
I'm mainly bringing this up because there's at least one D&T deck floating around my LGS that gets either played or loaned out, and I'm sure it runs all three of those in some number. If I start playing this deck around there more, I've been thinking of ways to deal with them so I'm not always pressured to go off turn one or never.
Hey, guys, sorry about the long silence. To make it up to you, here's a video of Cheeri0s beating Belcher over the head with a lead pipe. Both guys are good friends of mine, and "Dr. Science" (Aaron LaCluyze) has a fantastic podcast about Magic called Card Advantage.
Well, I think you and I are the only two people who actually still play the deck. I just haven't taken it to any real events or made any changes lately. I did play at a local Legacy event about 2 weeks ago, and in round 2 I had my opponent play a turn one Show and Tell off of a Lotus Petal and Ancient Tomb, drop Emrakul, then lean back with a smug grin. I started my turn 1, and shot him in the face with 40 Grapeshots. It was a good game. Only went 2-2 for the day though.
I went 2-2 at my local last night with a pretty standard list (2 gamble, 2 personal tutor, 2 summoner's). First Legacy tournament for me and first time playing the deck against non-goldfish, so plenty of play errors - honestly think I could have gone 3-1 or better with some smarter play. But so fun - people either didn't have any idea what I was doing, or had heard of the deck but never seen it in action. Only one opponent was a little bored when I comboed off, everyone else thought it was hilarious
G1 v reanimator: First game I was nervous and didn't mull to 5 when no Glimpse appeared. Listen to the primer! I almost got there without it, though, when my opponent, not knowing what I was playing, went down to two with Griselbrand when I had two Cheeri0s and grapeshot in hand...but no red mana. Tragedy. Second game I forgot to use Noxious Revival on the reanminate target and then fizzled. 0-1
G2 v ANT: Further lessons in using weird cards. Lost the first game. Second game, my opponent cabal therapied for Glimpse after I fetched with Personal Tutor -- but the card was on the top of my library! -- so I went off next turn. Third game, he LED'ed his Ad Nauseum into the graveyard, I let his Infernal Tutor resolve, and then I Noxious Revival'ed the Ad Nauseum back to the top of his library. Dude was crestfallen. 1-1
G3 v GB Pox: So painful. Noxious'ed my ESG onto my deck mid-combo so that I could get double Glimpse going, and then found out that I had actually put the first Glimpse back on top rather than ESG. Fizzle. Second game I flat out bricked, and then used a single memnite to ping him down to 11 before Liliana, chalice on 0, and zombies could do their jobs. 1-2
G4 v TES: Lost the first on a mid-combo fizzle. Second game I Noxious'ed a rite of flame out of his graveyard mid-combo to give him one less mana, and it worked! Ad Nauseum'ed to death trying to find another ritual. Third game I went off first turn with a small crowd - finally could show off the absurdity! "Do you...do you even care which way your creatures are facing?" "Nah!" 2-2
MVP goes to Noxious Revival all the way. That thing is a toolbox to itself. And the deck rules! Thanks for the primer and the thread. Now there are at least three people who still play it, I guess?
I've still got the deck built, but I don't ever play it at real events. The last time I tried I mulliganed to death in more than half my games, which is not a fun way to go when you're paying money to play.
I don't think I'll ever get rid of it though. I've had people ask me to trade my Glimpses, but the deck is too much fun to take it apart.
One thing I was able to learn from my last event was that Personal Tutor should probably only be run along with Land Grant. I tried a list with a couple Tutors but no Grants and it did not work out; needing the mana over two separate turns (not to mention just needing a second mana overall) really demands that you have a permanent mana source, not one-use like ESG or Lotus Petal.
I bought today the cards to complete my Cheeri0s, except tutors. In two months the order will arrive @ home from ABU Store (Customs Office import is horrible here in Brasil..). I had to import because i haven't found kobolds cards in any store to buy.
Thank's and let the kobold storm begins !
Tiago Silva
If availability is an issue Beck/Call can work, but it's not quite as good. I ran a 1-of for a while and found that hitting two mana is too rare in this deck; with a Tutor you can at least use the same dual land two turns in a row. I would say go ahead and play with Beck/Call to get some practice, but try to get one or the other tutor when you can.
Im looking into building this deck it seems fun. I know land might be an issue but with the stack would it be possible to, as a last resort, play the following.
Mind you have already cast everything. Have all creatures in play and somehow they countered all win conditions.
Cast feldons cane
Cast lions eye diamond
Crack feldons
In response, play scapegoat
In response, crack lions eye
In response, play another scape goat
The idea here is to return everything but 3 or so creature to your hand. Discard everything and get land prepped for another run of the deck. And with the second scape goat return a few creatures after the lions eye resolves since your glimpse is still in effect.
Trying to put together a sideboard with a worst case scenerio where everything failed
You could also chalice and scapegoat to get everything in the graveyard for feldons but lions eye gives you some mana to work with since all your spirit guides are exiled
So I have been looking at Cheeri0s some, but I noticed the OP hadn't been updated for a little while. Has anything changed recently with this deck? Sideboards, etc.? Is there any sort of organized thoughts on matchups? What are some of the latest lists? I'd like to see if anyone has played this recently and what they are playing.
There haven't been any significant changes. With a deck as streamlined as this, it's pretty rare for any new cards to come out that are relevant to what we're trying to do.
There isn't a whole lot to say about matchups really. You want to do the same thing every game, regardless of what your opponent is playing. The only really important thing to know is whether you have to play around counterspells - that's not exactly a matchup, just the whole category of "blue decks"
Sideboards can be pretty tricky. On top of the mana constraints, it's a very streamlined combo deck, so you don't want to take out many pieces in general. What you run in the board is going to depend on how exactly you build the deck, specifically which colors you have access to. I'll just go over some of the typical choices. Cabal Therapy - if you have black mana, you want four of these. Thoughtseize (or even Duress) will do if you don't feel confident in naming a card with Therapy, but the fact that our main strategy is able to cast the flashback so easily really boosts Therapy. Ingot Chewer/Wispmare - These are the cheapest way to kill the hate cards that neuter the deck, namely Chalice of the Void and Rule of Law variants. Chalice is by far the more popular one, so if you have red mana you want 3-4 Chewers. Knowing when you're going to need these is mostly a matter of experience and reading/knowing your opponent. Xantid Swarm - one of the best/cheapest ways to get through counterspells. If they don't counter this, they can't counter your other stuff (nobody keeps in removal against you). If they do counter it, they have one less for your Glimpse. Pact of Negation - another anti-counterspell, but a risky one. You will never be able to pay for it, so this makes going for it a "win now or die" kind of thing. But then again, that's the deck's whole philosophy anyway. Goblin Bushwhacker - if it's not in the main deck, you need one sideboard. It's a way around Leyline of Sanctity specifically, but just having a different kind of win condition in general is good. Beastmaster Ascension is also used sometimes, but I personally prefer the 'Whacker.
I like to run one Gaea's Cradle in the board as an answer to Flusterstorm, but I am not running the black version with discard spells. I have the sideboard spot available, and already owned a copy, so it fit nicely, but if I didn't already have one I wouldn't bother with it.
Edit: You can skip on graveyard hate because you're faster than all the graveyard decks. Trying to bring any hate in will dilute your deck, you're better off just not boarding except to answer the hate they bring in for you.
This is just probably winning more, but what about that new altar of the brood? I have not looked at this primer in a while and was fixing my deck away from the chalice version today and that popped out in my mind. Also i had never seen scapegoat before today either(wow that is soo cool). Like i said it has been a while since i scoured this primer. For the record i just went back to the goof ball beastmaster version from years ago, running 2 gold bordered cradles
I hope you are not playing those (Gold Border) Cradles in a tournament, as they are not technically MTG cards and are not legal in a competitive environment.
I proxied up the fast version of the deck... I'm goldfishing very consistent T1 wins compared to other glass cannon decks. I'd guess around 80%.
However it feels extremely vulnerable to hard and soft counters. Aside from silence-type spells and xantid swarm, has anyone considered a veteran explorer package in the board to fight soft counters and wasteland? Does anyone have a board plan that doesn't automatically lose to blue decks?
Pact of Negation can help. Really though, I think Silence is one of your best bets because you can gamble for it, and then go off on the next turn. It is guaranteed to either eat a counter spell, or win you the game. Someone may have more thoughts on this, but that's my opinion.
Noxious Revival is the current anti-counter tech of choice for the main deck. If they counter your Glimpse, just put it back on top and try again next turn. No deck with counters is putting you on a clock fast enough that you can't wait a turn.
It's the best option because it works equally well against discard spells, while at the same time it works great to fuel the main engine. For example, I've kept a hand of Glimpse, Revival, two mana sources, and three creatures. You can Glimpse, Revival it to the top, play a creature to draw, and Glimpse again. Then, with double Glimpse active and two more creatures to play, it's pretty hard to lose the game from there.
In the board, Pact and Xantid Swarm are probably best. You can never pay for the Pact, but if you don't win that turn you wouldn't win anyway.
I originally had four Probes for basically the same reason, but after a while I started to realize that seeing whether the path is clear doesn't actually do anything. If they don't have an answer you win anyway (as long as you don't fizzle), and if they do have an answer you still need a way to deal with it. The information is worth something, but it doesn't help you do anything about whatever they have; this isn't a deck that really gets a lot of value out of information. Revival is a great replacement because it "answers" all the things you're trying to play around by seeing their hand, and also works the same against discard.
If you wish to play a Cradle build, I highly suggest running 3-4 Beastmaster Ascensions. The ability to open without Glimpse and just go "Dudes, Cradle, BMA, pass" is very, very strong. I also suggest Summoner's Pacts, to fetch Elvish Spirit Guide, Wild Cantor, Skyshroud Cutter, and supersecret tech Mistcutter Hydra, which is REALLY REALLY GOOD in Cradle builds.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
And it only costed me roughly 20 bucks to make because I just needed kobolds and glimpses.
Though I did have a problem against a miracles player who FoW'd my first glimpse then casted meddling mage on the second.
R/W Devotion
Mono-R Devotion
Legacy
Burn
Punishing Jund
*EDIT*
Disregard, misread card.
As far as I'm concerned, Cheerios is a turn 1 deck, and building around that is what has worked best for me. The only things I worry about are cards that come out turn 1, like Force of Will, Daze, Chalice of the Void, etc. Fitting in answers for those cards already fills up a sideboard, so I just don't see any reason to worry about things like Thalia and Cannonist that come out turn 2. Also minimize how many cards you have to remove, every cheerio, tutor, or mana source you take out is a hit on the reliability percentage of the deck. So for example, instead of siding in Wispmares or Chain of Vapors or something to deal with Leyline of Sanctity, just switch out Grapeshot for Goblin Bushwhacker. With that, you've answered that problem without a drop in reliability or speed.
Playing all-in super fast combo decks can often require a way of thinking that's different than "normal" decks. You need to balance speed and reliability of your combo against dealing with the hate people board in. Just throwing in answers for cards that stop you may actually hurt you, if they effect your speed enough.
The deck has no other disruption besides those x/1s, so I think in boarding I could afford to shave one or two of Noxious Revival and/or Wild Cantor (it's not actually mana, just filter) for probably two Gut Shot. Considering I would often have really thought about bringing in one or two Ingot Chewer just for Canonist, I think a couple Gut Shot that can kill any of the three for 0 mana is better. Assuming I can make the space in my 15 of course.
I'm mainly bringing this up because there's at least one D&T deck floating around my LGS that gets either played or loaned out, and I'm sure it runs all three of those in some number. If I start playing this deck around there more, I've been thinking of ways to deal with them so I'm not always pressured to go off turn one or never.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy77qjU_zUg
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
G1 v reanimator: First game I was nervous and didn't mull to 5 when no Glimpse appeared. Listen to the primer! I almost got there without it, though, when my opponent, not knowing what I was playing, went down to two with Griselbrand when I had two Cheeri0s and grapeshot in hand...but no red mana. Tragedy. Second game I forgot to use Noxious Revival on the reanminate target and then fizzled. 0-1
G2 v ANT: Further lessons in using weird cards. Lost the first game. Second game, my opponent cabal therapied for Glimpse after I fetched with Personal Tutor -- but the card was on the top of my library! -- so I went off next turn. Third game, he LED'ed his Ad Nauseum into the graveyard, I let his Infernal Tutor resolve, and then I Noxious Revival'ed the Ad Nauseum back to the top of his library. Dude was crestfallen. 1-1
G3 v GB Pox: So painful. Noxious'ed my ESG onto my deck mid-combo so that I could get double Glimpse going, and then found out that I had actually put the first Glimpse back on top rather than ESG. Fizzle. Second game I flat out bricked, and then used a single memnite to ping him down to 11 before Liliana, chalice on 0, and zombies could do their jobs. 1-2
G4 v TES: Lost the first on a mid-combo fizzle. Second game I Noxious'ed a rite of flame out of his graveyard mid-combo to give him one less mana, and it worked! Ad Nauseum'ed to death trying to find another ritual. Third game I went off first turn with a small crowd - finally could show off the absurdity! "Do you...do you even care which way your creatures are facing?" "Nah!" 2-2
MVP goes to Noxious Revival all the way. That thing is a toolbox to itself. And the deck rules! Thanks for the primer and the thread. Now there are at least three people who still play it, I guess?
I don't think I'll ever get rid of it though. I've had people ask me to trade my Glimpses, but the deck is too much fun to take it apart.
One thing I was able to learn from my last event was that Personal Tutor should probably only be run along with Land Grant. I tried a list with a couple Tutors but no Grants and it did not work out; needing the mana over two separate turns (not to mention just needing a second mana overall) really demands that you have a permanent mana source, not one-use like ESG or Lotus Petal.
I bought today the cards to complete my Cheeri0s, except tutors. In two months the order will arrive @ home from ABU Store (Customs Office import is horrible here in Brasil..). I had to import because i haven't found kobolds cards in any store to buy.
Thank's and let the kobold storm begins !
Tiago Silva
Edit: bought 3 Personal Tutor (main), 4 Autumn's Veil, 4 Ingot Chewer, 1 Brain Freeze, 1 Laboratory Maniac, 4 Xantid Swarm and 1 Goblin Bushwhacker for sideboard.
Mind you have already cast everything. Have all creatures in play and somehow they countered all win conditions.
Cast feldons cane
Cast lions eye diamond
Crack feldons
In response, play scapegoat
In response, crack lions eye
In response, play another scape goat
The idea here is to return everything but 3 or so creature to your hand. Discard everything and get land prepped for another run of the deck. And with the second scape goat return a few creatures after the lions eye resolves since your glimpse is still in effect.
Trying to put together a sideboard with a worst case scenerio where everything failed
You could also chalice and scapegoat to get everything in the graveyard for feldons but lions eye gives you some mana to work with since all your spirit guides are exiled
There isn't a whole lot to say about matchups really. You want to do the same thing every game, regardless of what your opponent is playing. The only really important thing to know is whether you have to play around counterspells - that's not exactly a matchup, just the whole category of "blue decks"
Sideboards can be pretty tricky. On top of the mana constraints, it's a very streamlined combo deck, so you don't want to take out many pieces in general. What you run in the board is going to depend on how exactly you build the deck, specifically which colors you have access to. I'll just go over some of the typical choices.
Cabal Therapy - if you have black mana, you want four of these. Thoughtseize (or even Duress) will do if you don't feel confident in naming a card with Therapy, but the fact that our main strategy is able to cast the flashback so easily really boosts Therapy.
Ingot Chewer/Wispmare - These are the cheapest way to kill the hate cards that neuter the deck, namely Chalice of the Void and Rule of Law variants. Chalice is by far the more popular one, so if you have red mana you want 3-4 Chewers. Knowing when you're going to need these is mostly a matter of experience and reading/knowing your opponent.
Xantid Swarm - one of the best/cheapest ways to get through counterspells. If they don't counter this, they can't counter your other stuff (nobody keeps in removal against you). If they do counter it, they have one less for your Glimpse.
Pact of Negation - another anti-counterspell, but a risky one. You will never be able to pay for it, so this makes going for it a "win now or die" kind of thing. But then again, that's the deck's whole philosophy anyway.
Goblin Bushwhacker - if it's not in the main deck, you need one sideboard. It's a way around Leyline of Sanctity specifically, but just having a different kind of win condition in general is good. Beastmaster Ascension is also used sometimes, but I personally prefer the 'Whacker.
I like to run one Gaea's Cradle in the board as an answer to Flusterstorm, but I am not running the black version with discard spells. I have the sideboard spot available, and already owned a copy, so it fit nicely, but if I didn't already have one I wouldn't bother with it.
Edit: You can skip on graveyard hate because you're faster than all the graveyard decks. Trying to bring any hate in will dilute your deck, you're better off just not boarding except to answer the hate they bring in for you.
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However it feels extremely vulnerable to hard and soft counters. Aside from silence-type spells and xantid swarm, has anyone considered a veteran explorer package in the board to fight soft counters and wasteland? Does anyone have a board plan that doesn't automatically lose to blue decks?
Thanks
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It's the best option because it works equally well against discard spells, while at the same time it works great to fuel the main engine. For example, I've kept a hand of Glimpse, Revival, two mana sources, and three creatures. You can Glimpse, Revival it to the top, play a creature to draw, and Glimpse again. Then, with double Glimpse active and two more creatures to play, it's pretty hard to lose the game from there.
In the board, Pact and Xantid Swarm are probably best. You can never pay for the Pact, but if you don't win that turn you wouldn't win anyway.
I guess it can't be super fast AND well-protected.