The problem is their speed. Slowing them down is key but doing it through their control is tricky especially when they can but draw turn 2 wins. You almost need a plow or chant in your opener to compete. The flip side is that if they have a bad draw it's almost impossible for us to lose.
The matchup gets better game 2 when we can also side in dudes thus pressuring them to win faster while disrupting them and having chump blockers to let us survive longer.
The big thing here is taxing them. Needle on blinkmoth is good. Trinisphere makes them have to pay mana. Blood moon shuts off their mana. Prison makes it hard for them to attack and play spells. Humility beats infect. Etc
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i would also like to add that some infect players run a copy of teferi's response in their board, so we should be mindful when trying to path their blinkmoth, yes, i think needling the blinkmoths is the safer move..i know its a corner case but i would just like to mention it..
WeaponX:
what made you drop the angel for the batterskull? i'm still with the angel because i feel the opponent will side out their creature removal against us after game 1 making the angel devastating post board, but i think they will side in their artifact(and enchantment) hate which the batterskull is susceptible to..
Generally it was just how bad I needed it. Batterskull protects itself and is tutorable, Baneslayer isn't. Genju is the other card I put in that slot. The choice comes down to when you need that life to begin implementing a plan.
Genju -> batterskull -> Baneslayer
Baneslayer is the best in the chain, but I was having games where I couldn't afford to wait for it so batterskull became the go to. When I first built the deck there was a lot of sligh, so Genju was a house.
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Oooh, that reminds me. I played infect at a win a dual about a year ago maybe and won 2-0.
I boarded in a Peacekeeper. GG as he had no dude removal and wasted a force on LT. He had no t2 win in that game and just used the Force on LT as it was really good game 1- when Peacekeeper hit and resolved I was golden.
I expected to lose G1 but got the play and IIRC and managed to put his opening play (dork?) on top with UA for 0. My land tax/scroll rack went nuts in the first game and drew me all the Chants, Halo, Ghostly, Needle action I needed to not die. I play a slightly more anti critter version than most, but it was ok. It helps if they don't know your deck well.
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Oooh, that reminds me. I played infect at a win a dual about a year ago maybe and won 2-0.
I boarded in a Peacekeeper. GG as he had no dude removal and wasted a force on LT. He had no t2 win in that game and just used the Force on LT as it was really good game 1- when Peacekeeper hit and resolved I was golden.
I expected to lose G1 but got the play and IIRC and managed to put his opening play (dork?) on top with UA for 0. My land tax/scroll rack went nuts in the first game and drew me all the Chants, Halo, Ghostly, Needle action I needed to not die. I play a slightly more anti critter version than most, but it was ok. It helps if they don't know your deck well.
how good are the halos? i can see it useful against storm, what other matchups does it shine?
wow! peacekeeper! cool "moat-wannabe" creature! i'm just worried that we don't have too many ways to protect her to protect us..
i agree that the opponent not knowing how to fight against us is one of the strong qualities of this deck, we are so under the radar that few know or have even heard of parfait..
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"I am the purifier, the light that clears all shadows."
—Seal inscription
Halo does a general job, and is useful as removal that does not target against Infect, RUG delver and Affinity (for the pro-dude)- supplementing your Swords/Unexpectedly/Oring cards. It is great against Burn (Eidolon/Vortex) and can two for one if they draw two of the same threat. It is rarely bad, I found it useful against Reanimator for dealing with the shroud dude (I run Maze and Karakas style effects that deal with the Legendary dudes) , and resolving it t1/2 against Tin -Fin reanimation of Griselbrand is strong, (Humility is better, obviously, but at 4 has a harder time resolving).
It is not that stellar against Enchantress's Helm and and Painter''s Grindstone combos as they can deal with it and win, but it can be very good vs Storm.
It is weakest against BG-X decks because it can be killed easily at EOT and ruin your plans. It effectively takes the place of a Swords in my list.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
@drmarkb
hmm, i see now..its like a proactive o-ring that can also target lands and non-permanent spells..
cards like these makes me wanna consider karmic justice in my 75, especially against b/gx decks..
i no longer fear enchantress, because i know we have decent game against it, trinisphere and my new addition to the 75, aura of silence(it replaced my 2nd seal of cleansing) are very good against it..
i have no experience yet against painted stone with parfait, i know we have good cards against it(well we almost always do against most decks)but what's your game plan against it?..i used to run 3 canonists at the side but just recently replaced one of them with a Suppression Field(its still in the experimental stage), because it seems good against decks that run top, it also slows down fetch lands..do you think suppression field is effective against it? and aura of silence is another card that i think is effective against it to slow it down because they need to deal with it first before they can combo off, and also seal of cleansing..
do you think its a favorable match-up?
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"I am the purifier, the light that clears all shadows."
—Seal inscription
Unless you're facing deeds, there really is no need for karmic justice.
We have great game against painter. They try to aggro and have a combo. We already beat the aggro and we have spot removal to stop the combo. That ignores the hate we have available.
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I have only played Painter once, I remember it well. Lost G1 after a bad mull to 6 on the draw (I was blind- thought he was on a different deck), I stopped the combo with a Needle after his sol-land explosive start, went to t4 I think. Sadly it got Pyro'd and I had no removal in hand for Painter [my version is lighter on swords than most]. Lost the second game peculiarly, went on forever, stopped the comb totally, drew humility and died slowly to one/ones drawing zero cards other than lands and the odd o ring. All that anti critter stuff and none in sight......most upsetting, which is why I remember it.
On BG-X, I have noted they seem to use Vraska now from the board, which can be irritating for us but is no deed. Just FYI.
On Enchantress I would say I like AoS, of course it is good if they don't have mega-sanctum mana, but you also want any Rule of Law effects too, alongside any Spirit or other appropriate hatebears. I may use AoS in my board as well in future if my meta demands it.
rule of law is good, you can see it in my board from time to time..but lately i replaced it with another copy of Ethersworn Canonist because it can attack..i like WeaponX' approach of going aggro post board because the opponent will likely side out their removal after game 1, kinda like a pseudo transformational-sideboard..
vraska is a *****, but the fact that she costs 5 is a good thing because that means that she won't resolve without making the opponent allow us to tax..
the 1-of aura of silence is my latest change in the board, but i still like keeping the 1 copy of seal of cleansing in the 75 because it can be cast earlier..
I'm still not worried about vraska. 5 mana sorcery speed removal is beaten easily.
But to reiterate, the aggro plan game 2+ is great because it means we are pressuring our opponent instead of just trying to lock/combo. You can get into situations where you have cut dead cards for aggro and suddenly almost every card you play needs to be answered; every card is now a lock piece, a combo piece, hate, etc. It's a huge benefit to have some lock pieces that can also attack as a result. I would just recommend tutorable guys if possible since our hate pieces can be broad enough while still being heavy hitters. There should be no wasted space in the sideboard.
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I only mentioned Vraska as an FYI, since Deed was being discussed and it is worth noting that the card is now seeing some play. I also use "Rule of Law effects" to mean Canonist, Arcane Lab (not that I splash blue), Eidolon etc. I like a mixture of those sorts of cards if I can- I do not want all my hate being all killed by Pryroclasms, but of course do want the damage, and am alway aware of Echoing truth- common here in boards.
I don't know what constitutes an aggro plan, but I do run some hatebear cards like a couple of Spirit of The Labyrinths/Canonist etc. in game two, and already have the Cursed Scroll/Outpost plan from game one, so that if the opposing deck is one where Humility is not needed then I do win game two through damage very often. I have an Elspeth lurking in the board too now, which is a fast finisher and can come in when Humility stays or goes. Because I run so many RIPs I can cut, say, 3 and a Helm so that the combo is still there as two one ofs while the focus changes to other avenues. How aggro is aggro?
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
Honestly I feel I gloss it quite a bit. As far as this deck is considered I would call adding "creatures" the aggro plan. I have elspeth and cannonists and maybe some token generation as my aggro plan. It's not heavy by any means, but with enlightened tutors being able to find my guys it is consistent.
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Got you, similar to mine then- I probably pinched the Elspeth plan off you at some point in the past 6 months, but I do like a hate bear board, have experimented with a fair few, I even had Mangara there for a while, with Karakas main- it is not there now though.
Obviously token generation is something I have always liked in the deck since I got into it seriously.
The Elspeth is a great addition- those 5/5 canonists or for me 6 power sotl's still pack hell of a punch, even without 4/4 flyers it naturally produces. The great thing is Humility can be down with the card.
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i was having fun earlier and inserted a singleton cursed scroll as the 61st card(i wouldn't do that in a competitive REL) and played my friend's Punishing Abzan..midway in the game, he had spent all 4 of his abrupt decays on 2 land taxes, a scroll rack and a rest in peace, luckily the rip was able to exile a Punishing Fire from his yard before it got decayed..he was stubbornly determined not to let me get the tax/rack engine going, he smugly said: "without the engine, your deck will falter" ..a humility in play bought me some more turns and a zuran orb gave me a little life shield, but his 1/1's are slowly picking my life total apart, and i know that he's bound to draw another punishing fire soon..but a timely bloodmoon from a lucky top deck ensured that he can't recur his punishing fire anymore..i still have about 2 turns before his 3 1/1's kill me, realizing that ghostly prison will not prevent him from attacking, and my handsize is too small(2 cards) for the ivory tower to be useful and i don't think confinement will also save me without the tax/rack engine going, having no rip yet and my library still full of lands, i still can't combo off; so instead i tutored for the 61st "spice card" that i added, the lone cursed scroll!
its amazing how powerful cursed scroll becomes against creatures with a humility in play, ha ha ha ha..having spent all of his decays on the tax/rack engine allowed cursed scroll to lock him out of the game, every creature that he top-decks, even liliana, is a sitting duck for the cursed scroll..
my inclusion of cursed scroll is not yet set in stone, i just sometimes like adding a 61st "spice card" in casual games just for fun, but props to drmarkb, i got the idea from him.
decaying the RIP was a correct move on his part because it can shut off his card draw in loam and the cycling moors and thickets, its stops his punishing grove combo and it shrinks his knight of the reliquary; not to mention that we can just combo off if he keeps it in play long enough..but i feel he should've saved his other abrupt decays on the bloodmoon..waddya think?
if you were on punishing abzan, would you save your decays for the bloods and rips or would you destroy the draw engine pieces?
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"I am the purifier, the light that clears all shadows."
—Seal inscription
People in GB-X tend to shoot RIP with decay without thinking in my experience, their decks normally use the bin to an extent, they get very worried by Helm combo and often a Chant can get them decaying in response- they are never too sure how much "explosiveness" we have mana wise, and fear helm. Most BG-X decks will run either a Loam engine, Punishing engine, or top deck engine with cards like Volrath's Stronghold and ETB effects, or some flashback cards and most run Goyfs too, so they tend to shoot RIP. The thing about Moon is do they know you have it, and what is their basic count? Without that information you can't say what the right play is. Some people get very greedy mana wise. All I can say is that in my experience few people in BG-X let me have RIP for long.
On Scroll, I have found it very useful in many matches, R/U Delver decks are especially vulnerable to it, and its a nice card in the Miracles match if it resolves early. It controls the board with Humility down, can wipe out most dudes in a Burn, D N T or R/U delver deck, can be a win con in its own right and can interact with Planeswalkers. It works for me.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
went 3-1 last saturday on a small tourney at my LGS..
1st round vs eldrazi: lost(0-2)
-this is the first time i lost to this deck twice in a row..he just chaliced on (1) me in both games and i wasn't able to draw into any o-rings to set my PTE's free to stop his creatures from running over me..
2nd round vs death and taxes: won(2-0)
-knowing what he was on even before the game began helped me win game one easily, i cast a pithing needle turn 1 naming aether vial, on his turn he laid down a port a vial and passed..on my 2nd turn, i laid down a diamond(pitching plains) to cast an early blood moon..turns out, he's holding a ton of non-basics that he wasn't able to cast things for many turns because of blood moon, and that gave me a lot of room to set up the rip/helm combo..2nd game also went easy, i just drew into all my removal the entire game, i guess i was just lucky..i know its favorable but i don't think its supposed to be THAT easy, i feel i just got too lucky in this game, would love to play against DnT again in the future..
3rd round vs storm: won(2-1)
-first turn canonist in games 1 and 3 really made it look like a one-sided game..the game i lost(game 2) was due to him holding 2 decays in hand, he was able to get rid of my canonist and a sphere in play, he comboed off afterwards..
4th round vs titan post: won(2-0)
-the match up felt really favorable, they never pressure us, so there is really so much room to set up the combo..he needled my helm, but we got o-ring to get free from that..he surgicalled my tutor but the tax/rack engine still got me there..
notes:
-i'm running a 3/1 split of PTE and swords because i just want to try things out but mostly to play around extraction effects and cabal therapy, same reason why i replaced one of my ***'s with DoJ..one situation where it mattered was in my game against DnT when i got him unable to play spells under a blood moon, and his Flickerwisp, Mirran Crusader, Serra Avenger got stuck in hand because they require double white..when he landed a mom, i didn't want to path it because it can allow him to search up a plains and it felt great that i had a swords to kill it instead..
-i'm thinking of incorporating a copy of runed halo in the board maybe in lieu of the 2nd white leyline, its good against combo and aggro..i saw some infect players in the room that i must've dodged in pairing..
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"I am the purifier, the light that clears all shadows."
—Seal inscription
what's our game plan against elves? what creatures do we path first? what cards do we side out against them? i know they can generate a lot of mana, do we side out ghostly prison? trinisphere stays, right? does pithing needle stay? if it does, what card do we name? is it worth keeping blood moon in for cradle? got any tips?
Against elves, drop a humility and a trinisphere and it's basically game. Blood moon is almost always good because everyone plays fetches with skeletal mana bases. As for creature to path, that's entirely dependant on what's going on. Heritage Druid, quirion ranger, nettle sentinel, wirewood symbiote, etc can all be great targets but your choice may be more dependant on how it lines up with your hand/options.
Honestly this is also one of the few matches where shaving off some of the engine is probably right. Think like a zorb, tax, and rack. Orim's chant is MVP here. You can literally watch them solitaire until NO into craterhoof, chant them, and wrath on your turn and easily 18-1 them.
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Seconded. Humility is your friend, and I am going to give a shout to Rule of Law effects eg Canonist (despite the Humility nonbo), Rule of law ec.
Also I am happy to bring in Spirit of the Lab to interfere with Glimpse.
I would also shave the engine rather than, say, Solitary confinements or Orim's (which I agree is brilliant in the match in many ways, and I would also put as MVP.)
I believe there is a commander card that munches artifacts and enchantments - a natural order target than basically board wipes us. Watch out for it. Bane of Progress or some such. You can still hold stuff back in hand if they have it.
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People with belligerent signatures are trying to compensate for something....
I believe there is a commander card that munches artifacts and enchantments - a natural order target than basically board wipes us. Watch out for it. Bane of Progress or some such. You can still hold stuff back in hand if they have it.
Well it finally happened, I'm making changes to my board. The biggest one for me is playing nahiri the harbinger, something I thought I would never play. As I thought of some tweeks however it found its way in the forefront. Batterskull is gone and I'm back to Baneslayer almost exclusively because of nahiri. I have also finally cut leyline of the void in favour of a third rip. The deck feels as tight as ever.
Card economy and versatility continue to win the day.
Also still want to run monastery mentor in the board. Every other deck I've played where I can side them in feels amazing. It also creates obscene pressure in this deck.
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The matchup gets better game 2 when we can also side in dudes thus pressuring them to win faster while disrupting them and having chump blockers to let us survive longer.
The big thing here is taxing them. Needle on blinkmoth is good. Trinisphere makes them have to pay mana. Blood moon shuts off their mana. Prison makes it hard for them to attack and play spells. Humility beats infect. Etc
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
WeaponX:
what made you drop the angel for the batterskull? i'm still with the angel because i feel the opponent will side out their creature removal against us after game 1 making the angel devastating post board, but i think they will side in their artifact(and enchantment) hate which the batterskull is susceptible to..
—Seal inscription
Genju -> batterskull -> Baneslayer
Baneslayer is the best in the chain, but I was having games where I couldn't afford to wait for it so batterskull became the go to. When I first built the deck there was a lot of sligh, so Genju was a house.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I boarded in a Peacekeeper. GG as he had no dude removal and wasted a force on LT. He had no t2 win in that game and just used the Force on LT as it was really good game 1- when Peacekeeper hit and resolved I was golden.
I expected to lose G1 but got the play and IIRC and managed to put his opening play (dork?) on top with UA for 0. My land tax/scroll rack went nuts in the first game and drew me all the Chants, Halo, Ghostly, Needle action I needed to not die. I play a slightly more anti critter version than most, but it was ok. It helps if they don't know your deck well.
how good are the halos? i can see it useful against storm, what other matchups does it shine?
wow! peacekeeper! cool "moat-wannabe" creature! i'm just worried that we don't have too many ways to protect her to protect us..
i agree that the opponent not knowing how to fight against us is one of the strong qualities of this deck, we are so under the radar that few know or have even heard of parfait..
—Seal inscription
It is not that stellar against Enchantress's Helm and and Painter''s Grindstone combos as they can deal with it and win, but it can be very good vs Storm.
It is weakest against BG-X decks because it can be killed easily at EOT and ruin your plans. It effectively takes the place of a Swords in my list.
hmm, i see now..its like a proactive o-ring that can also target lands and non-permanent spells..
cards like these makes me wanna consider karmic justice in my 75, especially against b/gx decks..
i no longer fear enchantress, because i know we have decent game against it, trinisphere and my new addition to the 75, aura of silence(it replaced my 2nd seal of cleansing) are very good against it..
i have no experience yet against painted stone with parfait, i know we have good cards against it(well we almost always do against most decks)but what's your game plan against it?..i used to run 3 canonists at the side but just recently replaced one of them with a Suppression Field(its still in the experimental stage), because it seems good against decks that run top, it also slows down fetch lands..do you think suppression field is effective against it? and aura of silence is another card that i think is effective against it to slow it down because they need to deal with it first before they can combo off, and also seal of cleansing..
do you think its a favorable match-up?
—Seal inscription
We have great game against painter. They try to aggro and have a combo. We already beat the aggro and we have spot removal to stop the combo. That ignores the hate we have available.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
On BG-X, I have noted they seem to use Vraska now from the board, which can be irritating for us but is no deed. Just FYI.
On Enchantress I would say I like AoS, of course it is good if they don't have mega-sanctum mana, but you also want any Rule of Law effects too, alongside any Spirit or other appropriate hatebears. I may use AoS in my board as well in future if my meta demands it.
vraska is a *****, but the fact that she costs 5 is a good thing because that means that she won't resolve without making the opponent allow us to tax..
the 1-of aura of silence is my latest change in the board, but i still like keeping the 1 copy of seal of cleansing in the 75 because it can be cast earlier..
—Seal inscription
But to reiterate, the aggro plan game 2+ is great because it means we are pressuring our opponent instead of just trying to lock/combo. You can get into situations where you have cut dead cards for aggro and suddenly almost every card you play needs to be answered; every card is now a lock piece, a combo piece, hate, etc. It's a huge benefit to have some lock pieces that can also attack as a result. I would just recommend tutorable guys if possible since our hate pieces can be broad enough while still being heavy hitters. There should be no wasted space in the sideboard.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I don't know what constitutes an aggro plan, but I do run some hatebear cards like a couple of Spirit of The Labyrinths/Canonist etc. in game two, and already have the Cursed Scroll/Outpost plan from game one, so that if the opposing deck is one where Humility is not needed then I do win game two through damage very often. I have an Elspeth lurking in the board too now, which is a fast finisher and can come in when Humility stays or goes. Because I run so many RIPs I can cut, say, 3 and a Helm so that the combo is still there as two one ofs while the focus changes to other avenues. How aggro is aggro?
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Obviously token generation is something I have always liked in the deck since I got into it seriously.
The Elspeth is a great addition- those 5/5 canonists or for me 6 power sotl's still pack hell of a punch, even without 4/4 flyers it naturally produces. The great thing is Humility can be down with the card.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
its amazing how powerful cursed scroll becomes against creatures with a humility in play, ha ha ha ha..having spent all of his decays on the tax/rack engine allowed cursed scroll to lock him out of the game, every creature that he top-decks, even liliana, is a sitting duck for the cursed scroll..
my inclusion of cursed scroll is not yet set in stone, i just sometimes like adding a 61st "spice card" in casual games just for fun, but props to drmarkb, i got the idea from him.
—Seal inscription
if you were on punishing abzan, would you save your decays for the bloods and rips or would you destroy the draw engine pieces?
—Seal inscription
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
On Scroll, I have found it very useful in many matches, R/U Delver decks are especially vulnerable to it, and its a nice card in the Miracles match if it resolves early. It controls the board with Humility down, can wipe out most dudes in a Burn, D N T or R/U delver deck, can be a win con in its own right and can interact with Planeswalkers. It works for me.
1st round vs eldrazi: lost(0-2)
-this is the first time i lost to this deck twice in a row..he just chaliced on (1) me in both games and i wasn't able to draw into any o-rings to set my PTE's free to stop his creatures from running over me..
2nd round vs death and taxes: won(2-0)
-knowing what he was on even before the game began helped me win game one easily, i cast a pithing needle turn 1 naming aether vial, on his turn he laid down a port a vial and passed..on my 2nd turn, i laid down a diamond(pitching plains) to cast an early blood moon..turns out, he's holding a ton of non-basics that he wasn't able to cast things for many turns because of blood moon, and that gave me a lot of room to set up the rip/helm combo..2nd game also went easy, i just drew into all my removal the entire game, i guess i was just lucky..i know its favorable but i don't think its supposed to be THAT easy, i feel i just got too lucky in this game, would love to play against DnT again in the future..
3rd round vs storm: won(2-1)
-first turn canonist in games 1 and 3 really made it look like a one-sided game..the game i lost(game 2) was due to him holding 2 decays in hand, he was able to get rid of my canonist and a sphere in play, he comboed off afterwards..
4th round vs titan post: won(2-0)
-the match up felt really favorable, they never pressure us, so there is really so much room to set up the combo..he needled my helm, but we got o-ring to get free from that..he surgicalled my tutor but the tax/rack engine still got me there..
notes:
-i'm running a 3/1 split of PTE and swords because i just want to try things out but mostly to play around extraction effects and cabal therapy, same reason why i replaced one of my ***'s with DoJ..one situation where it mattered was in my game against DnT when i got him unable to play spells under a blood moon, and his Flickerwisp, Mirran Crusader, Serra Avenger got stuck in hand because they require double white..when he landed a mom, i didn't want to path it because it can allow him to search up a plains and it felt great that i had a swords to kill it instead..
-i'm thinking of incorporating a copy of runed halo in the board maybe in lieu of the 2nd white leyline, its good against combo and aggro..i saw some infect players in the room that i must've dodged in pairing..
—Seal inscription
—Seal inscription
Honestly this is also one of the few matches where shaving off some of the engine is probably right. Think like a zorb, tax, and rack. Orim's chant is MVP here. You can literally watch them solitaire until NO into craterhoof, chant them, and wrath on your turn and easily 18-1 them.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Also I am happy to bring in Spirit of the Lab to interfere with Glimpse.
I would also shave the engine rather than, say, Solitary confinements or Orim's (which I agree is brilliant in the match in many ways, and I would also put as MVP.)
I believe there is a commander card that munches artifacts and enchantments - a natural order target than basically board wipes us. Watch out for it. Bane of Progress or some such. You can still hold stuff back in hand if they have it.
and i thought Presence of the Master was scary..
—Seal inscription
Sideboard
Card economy and versatility continue to win the day.
Also still want to run monastery mentor in the board. Every other deck I've played where I can side them in feels amazing. It also creates obscene pressure in this deck.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord