I'm not aware of any videos of the deck in action. I know I personally would like to go to an SCG open or similar to shed light on the deck and have pondered doing a video during a legacy event and my LGS before but have yet to.
I'd definitely watch something like that. I've had fun testing the deck, but sometimes I suspect that I'm doing a fundamental thing or two wrong haha.
Videos of the deck can certainly help newer players to learn how to play optimally.
That said i haven't been able to find good ones yet
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712.5b The controller of another player can't make choices or decisions for that player that aren't called for by the rules or by any objects. The controller also can't make any choices or decisions for the player that would be called for by the tournament rules.
Example: The player who's being controlled still chooses whether he or she leaves to visit the restroom, trades a card to someone else, agrees to an intentional draw, or calls a judge about an error or infraction.
That's like old school k-run tech. My complaint is that it doesn't actually do anything helpful. Ok you have more creatures, they phase out, then on your turn they phase in and I get beaten. Replace other types in the same setting. You want cards that have some impact especially when they are played as a bullet. Equipoise doesn't fit the bill.
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------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
What has everyones win percentage been with the bdi list? I finally got all of the cards online and have been testing it. Im around 20 to 30% win with it at pretty much the bdi list. I have cut ajani and went over to other cards. Blind obedience is a house. I could be because all of my testing has been with friends who I know playstyle and decks they run. With friends I was just over 50%, which im happy with.
Its making me unsure if I want to just audible into a more mainstream deck for stl. I want to at least have a fighting chance. I love the toolbox style of the deck but I just dont know.
Just to put this in context I am a fairly skilled player with a couple top 16's and typically in top 32.
Anyone interested in me streaming so I can get tips and tricks on it? I think part of it is mulligans. Any tips on mulligan? Thanks for all your help on this everyone, especially weapon x. I think he may be one of the more under appreciated brewers in the community.
Its making me unsure if I want to just audible into a more mainstream deck for stl. I want to at least have a fighting chance. I love the toolbox style of the deck but I just dont know
I have the same feelings. I love this deck's and Mighty quinn's idea, but the lack of results today. makes this a very tough choice. I already play EDH if i want to play casual, 100+ dollars decks are to be the most competitive possible.
I feel there are a lot of holes left to be answered, and the player piloting these mono white control decks must have sharp skills with it. Because if not the power level isnt there, i think.
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Modern: RBW Mardu Pyro X Eldrazi
Pauper: X Affinity G Stompy
Perhaps your results are based on your changes. I'm not sure how you arrived at the changes you made, but I hope it was through goldfishing with the "stock list" first. Making changes first can skew how the deck can play out. Simple example with the BDI list you need at most 1 red source and there are potentially at least 15 ways to get it. Compare that to the W, BB, and R needs of your modified list.
A second consideration may simply be how you are testing. Are you facing the same deck 20 times for example? My testing was simply to play with the deck in tournaments (high risk/high reward to say the least) but that is also from playing similar decks in extended.
For what it's also worth I find I try to stress familiarity with the format for piloting decks like these. It rewards your knowledge of decks in a way that allows you to exploit the weaknesses within them. I'm also nearing the end of my deckstravaganza and should be back to new and old builds soon. Also hopefully I can get the recording plan sorted out by the same time so that that info can get out there for more people to take in.
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------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
Typically our testing is about 6 of us get together and test a couple realm matches with sideboarding. We have all of the major tier 1 and 1.5 decks made so we typically run the gauntlet. I tested the original bdi list and had the same problems I am having now. That spurred the changes.
I was hoping that familiarity would increase my win. Typically against my friends, since they know my deck and playstyle, is 50% or lower. This is with any pet deck I take on. This was true with D&T, tezzerator, and manaless dredge. I typically play them into the ground with my friends. When I move into modo I typically raise my win percentage. I feel like I have a handle on the deck though and this time it went down.
I will probably test online more, move to completely stock list and restart testing from that online. THe fair aggro decks are what I kind of have problems with on the stock list. That is why I went away from it. My version still has the same deck.
I would ignore boarding then and let yourself explore the deck. Keep bad hands for example, see in you can puzzle your way out of a situation. Simple things like that can help in a tournament setting. Land tax is usually a priority, but if you just try playing without getting it right away. I would wager a good article could easily be written on testing, but the bottom line on any deck is be aware of what plays are available.
I'd highlight that with an experience. I was playing a friend, he was on DnT, and he had a vial out playing another vial. I tutored about 2 times before he played a third vial around which I tutored again. Needless to say I lost to the vials and it was during game 2 I remembered my main deck needle. Even going through my deck I managed to forget I played it main. It was a hiatus period for me but I still forgot the obvious play. Stuff happens during a game, but the more prepared you are the better. Being out of your comfort zone helps.
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I was playing with a proxy list with moderate success against my friends. I think I could really use a more in-depth look at the interactions and how to pilot this properly.
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EDH RGOmnath, Locus of ManaRG URThe Locust godUR
Modern UWMiraclesUW
Legacy BGIce Station Zebra (Living Fins)BG UBRGrixis ControlUBR RGLandsRG
I seem to have component located so far. Next step will be getting a hold of them. I guess at least there has been some progress. I think this Sunday I will probably pick some random deck that hasn't been played at a tournament yet and be back to parfait decks. I think I have my new plan for black that I kind of want to try for example plus the other splash builds that I have posted reminders for.
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I seem to have component located so far. Next step will be getting a hold of them. I guess at least there has been some progress. I think this Sunday I will probably pick some random deck that hasn't been played at a tournament yet and be back to parfait decks. I think I have my new plan for black that I kind of want to try for example plus the other splash builds that I have posted reminders for.
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@WeaponX
sorry for the bother dude, but may i see your current deck list? the list i run is almost similar to yours but ever since the site underwent some changes and got the new look, i'm not sure where to see your most current deck list..it used to be readily available for viewing in your sig, but now, i'm not sure where to find it..thanks man..
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"I am the purifier, the light that clears all shadows."
—Seal inscription
First Impressions:
It reminds me of "The Rock" with a draw engine to go the distance.
I've only been able to play-test it vs combo elves so far, which housed me with turn 2 and 3 Craterhoof Behemoth, but I still think the deck shows promise. We're going to proxy some other decks tonight and see how it does vs the field.
- Regarding card/play sequencing, is it generally better to use an Enlightened Tutor to find a stall/lock piece, grab a piece of the draw engine, or a piece of the win?
In gold fishing, I've been prioritizing it like this:
1) Set up Engine
2) Lock Piece
3) Combo Win
But against faster decks it should probably be:
1) Lock Piece
2) Set up Engine
3) Combo Win
I'm playing a W/r list with my own twist. Please feel free to comment on my card choices and offer any suggestions.
I guess I will just touch on sequencing for now. There really isn't a specific way to play every game. I stress being able to recognize decks for that reason. That ability combines with playing the hand you are dealt. Think of a hand with 2 land, 2 mox, a tax, and a tutor. It is really a boring hand but it is packed with decision. Is mox, mox, tax, tutor for rack better then land tax and a land? That comes down to what you are playing against. I hope that highlights the sequencing question for you, or at least sheds a little light on it.
It is basically mono white rock, but it plays more like a prison deck with the silver bullet strategy.
I don't like your blightsteel/sneak plan as both cards are bad individually making them not even silver bullets. That is the reason for rip/helm. Even if not comboing, both cards are strong enough on their own. If you are not going to play multiple copies of solitary confinement, then you should at least look into leyline of sanctity. Combo is the worst matchup but it can be hedged against in some ways. Also, while I'm not opposed to burning wish, it just doesn't seem like you are taking advantage of it and are sacrificing sideboard space to boot.
With regards to blue decks: Chant stays in. It is a must counter otherwise you can do what you want. Blasts are more of a concession to planeswalkers, jace specifically.
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------------------- Keep Abiding or Get Mangled ------------------
-1 Blightsteel
-1 Sneak Attack
-3 Burning Wish
+1 Rest in Peace
+1 Helm of Obedience
+1 Solitary Confinement
+2 Wrath of God
SB:
Scrap the wish board and add +4 Leyline of Sanctity, other meta slots.
or something like that?
I understand what you are saying about Blightsteel/Sneak Attack. Maybe I'm making too big of a deal about Abrupt Decay. I play Welder MUD as my main Legacy deck, so I figured I would try and port Blightsteel.
Assuming I keep Burning Wish in, would you have any suggestions to better take advantage of it? Or is the whole idea too clunky?
Thanks for the suggestions on card choices and sequencing.
Well a lot of your wish targets are costly and don't have that impact they will need, or at the very least supplement what is present. Since I'm not sure how to put it I'll use wrath as an example. I play 3 main. In your deck with burning wish it may make more sense to have 2 wrath main and a pyroclasm in the board. If anything I think the bigger draw to the wish plan is having a wishable win con like decree of justice or white suns zenith. To refer to reinforcements however, that card gets better in multiples, and that is in a nut shell the wish problem. Wish is fine just be aware of what it can do and what it hurts when you build with it. Do you want a 75 card deck or maybe just a 65 card deck with some tools. Burning wish may be the best way for the deck to play Armageddon for what it's worth.
As for leyline, 4 is probably not necessary. In fact it is one of the main reasons for playing confinement main. Confinement is a catch all that can just beat some decks and synergizes with tax. Minimally it acts as a time walk. Leyline tends to come in when speed and upkeep can be an issue. There is also the benefit of avoiding abrupt decay.
Also if you are curious there should be a link to the part of the primer I wrote and my deck list in my signature.
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I've tried to include "free" spells in the wish board where i could, if time is of the essence, and I meet the alternative casting cost requirements, I will wish for one of those.
I like Armageddon as a wish target, nice idea.
I'm using Call the Skybreaker as my wish win con. The retrace cost is easily met with the tax rack engine.
About Sneak Attack/Blightsteel:
I keep coming back to the abrupt decay issue, it seems like this deck is extra vulnerable to it. Belcher would normally serve the purpose of a decay-proof win con, but I feel that Crystal Vein is worth running for the tempo and synergy.
The new Elspeth as a 2 of might be a nice replacement for my Sneak Attack/Blightsteel approach. She is relevant on her own at least.
I've read through this whole thread so I've been able to see everyone's variations. It seems yours has become the norm though.
Blind Obedience is good for many different matchups. I am wondering if running my moat and chains in the SB is even worth it.
I have some serious testing to do next week and so will tune it some more.
I'd definitely watch something like that. I've had fun testing the deck, but sometimes I suspect that I'm doing a fundamental thing or two wrong haha.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/661941-list-of-stores-that-support-legacy
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?28892-Compilation-Of-Legacy-Streams
That said i haven't been able to find good ones yet
Example: The player who's being controlled still chooses whether he or she leaves to visit the restroom, trades a card to someone else, agrees to an intentional draw, or calls a judge about an error or infraction.
How about this?
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
It seems like we could stack the triggers and blow most people out of the water.
Someone suggested it on another board.
Thoughts?
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
Its making me unsure if I want to just audible into a more mainstream deck for stl. I want to at least have a fighting chance. I love the toolbox style of the deck but I just dont know.
Just to put this in context I am a fairly skilled player with a couple top 16's and typically in top 32.
Anyone interested in me streaming so I can get tips and tricks on it? I think part of it is mulligans. Any tips on mulligan? Thanks for all your help on this everyone, especially weapon x. I think he may be one of the more under appreciated brewers in the community.
I have the same feelings. I love this deck's and Mighty quinn's idea, but the lack of results today. makes this a very tough choice. I already play EDH if i want to play casual, 100+ dollars decks are to be the most competitive possible.
I feel there are a lot of holes left to be answered, and the player piloting these mono white control decks must have sharp skills with it. Because if not the power level isnt there, i think.
RBW Mardu Pyro
X Eldrazi
Pauper:
X Affinity
G Stompy
A second consideration may simply be how you are testing. Are you facing the same deck 20 times for example? My testing was simply to play with the deck in tournaments (high risk/high reward to say the least) but that is also from playing similar decks in extended.
For what it's also worth I find I try to stress familiarity with the format for piloting decks like these. It rewards your knowledge of decks in a way that allows you to exploit the weaknesses within them. I'm also nearing the end of my deckstravaganza and should be back to new and old builds soon. Also hopefully I can get the recording plan sorted out by the same time so that that info can get out there for more people to take in.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I was hoping that familiarity would increase my win. Typically against my friends, since they know my deck and playstyle, is 50% or lower. This is with any pet deck I take on. This was true with D&T, tezzerator, and manaless dredge. I typically play them into the ground with my friends. When I move into modo I typically raise my win percentage. I feel like I have a handle on the deck though and this time it went down.
I will probably test online more, move to completely stock list and restart testing from that online. THe fair aggro decks are what I kind of have problems with on the stock list. That is why I went away from it. My version still has the same deck.
I'd highlight that with an experience. I was playing a friend, he was on DnT, and he had a vial out playing another vial. I tutored about 2 times before he played a third vial around which I tutored again. Needless to say I lost to the vials and it was during game 2 I remembered my main deck needle. Even going through my deck I managed to forget I played it main. It was a hiatus period for me but I still forgot the obvious play. Stuff happens during a game, but the more prepared you are the better. Being out of your comfort zone helps.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I was playing with a proxy list with moderate success against my friends. I think I could really use a more in-depth look at the interactions and how to pilot this properly.
RGOmnath, Locus of ManaRG
URThe Locust godUR
Modern
UWMiraclesUW
Legacy
BGIce Station Zebra (Living Fins)BG
UBRGrixis ControlUBR
RGLandsRG
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
sorry for the bother dude, but may i see your current deck list? the list i run is almost similar to yours but ever since the site underwent some changes and got the new look, i'm not sure where to see your most current deck list..it used to be readily available for viewing in your sig, but now, i'm not sure where to find it..thanks man..
—Seal inscription
It's in the spoiler tag. I seem to notice it disappears from time to time for me though. Also updated the link now so it should work.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
—Seal inscription
do you have a link to this?
—Seal inscription
I started testing this deck out yesterday.
First Impressions:
It reminds me of "The Rock" with a draw engine to go the distance.
I've only been able to play-test it vs combo elves so far, which housed me with turn 2 and 3 Craterhoof Behemoth, but I still think the deck shows promise. We're going to proxy some other decks tonight and see how it does vs the field.
- Regarding card/play sequencing, is it generally better to use an Enlightened Tutor to find a stall/lock piece, grab a piece of the draw engine, or a piece of the win?
In gold fishing, I've been prioritizing it like this:
1) Set up Engine
2) Lock Piece
3) Combo Win
But against faster decks it should probably be:
1) Lock Piece
2) Set up Engine
3) Combo Win
I'm playing a W/r list with my own twist. Please feel free to comment on my card choices and offer any suggestions.
Tax Rack Engine: 8
4 Land Tax
4 Scroll Rack
Control: 13
4 Orim's Chant
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Oblivion Ring
2 Terminus
Tutor: 7
4 Enlightened Tutor
3 Burning Wish
Silver Bullets: 10
1 Blood Moon
1 Ivory Tower
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Sneak Attack
1 Solitary Confinement
1 Rest in Peace
1 Pithing Needle
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Humility
1 Trinisphere
Mana: 22
4 Mox Diamond
3 Mountain
11 Plains
4 Crystal Vein
SB:
4 Pyroblast
Timely Reinforcements
Wrath of God
Sunscour
Terminus
Show and Tell
Pyroclasm
Cave-in
Replenish
Call the Skybreaker
Tormod's Crypt
Grafdigger's Cage
Regarding some of my card choices that I'm testing:
- Swords to Plowshares instead of Path to Exile: Path to Exile has the potential to advance the opponents board, color fix them, and/or negate Blood Moon, with a minor Land Tax synergy. I chose Swords to Plowshares because it's drawback doesn't hurt. My win conditions are not reliant on life total, and it also has a minor synergy with Timely Reinforcements.
- Burning Wish: Playing with a red splash makes this an obvious inclusion IMO. It is basically 3x Wrath of God/Sunscour/Show and Tell/Pyroclasm/Cave-in/Replenish/Call the Skybreaker. It takes the "Silver Bullet" concept to another level.
- Crystal Vein: Allows for turn 2 Oblivion Ring/Blood Moon/Solitary Confinement/Trinisphere and has a synergy with Land Tax.
- Rest in Peace and Helm of Obedience: This is Win Con #1. Most people agree with this as a win condition in this deck.
- Sneak Attack and Blightsteel Colossus: This is Win Con #2. It is able to be tutored for in the same fashion as Win Con #1, but Sneak Attack can't be hit by Abrupt Decay, which I feel is relevant. I'm not running Goblin Charbelcher because of the Crystal Vein's.
- Pyroblast: I have not been able to test this yet, but my thought is that I would side out Orim's Chant and bring in Pyroblast vs blue decks.
- Burning Wish targets:
It is basically mono white rock, but it plays more like a prison deck with the silver bullet strategy.
I don't like your blightsteel/sneak plan as both cards are bad individually making them not even silver bullets. That is the reason for rip/helm. Even if not comboing, both cards are strong enough on their own. If you are not going to play multiple copies of solitary confinement, then you should at least look into leyline of sanctity. Combo is the worst matchup but it can be hedged against in some ways. Also, while I'm not opposed to burning wish, it just doesn't seem like you are taking advantage of it and are sacrificing sideboard space to boot.
With regards to blue decks: Chant stays in. It is a must counter otherwise you can do what you want. Blasts are more of a concession to planeswalkers, jace specifically.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
-1 Blightsteel
-1 Sneak Attack
-3 Burning Wish
+1 Rest in Peace
+1 Helm of Obedience
+1 Solitary Confinement
+2 Wrath of God
SB:
Scrap the wish board and add +4 Leyline of Sanctity, other meta slots.
or something like that?
I understand what you are saying about Blightsteel/Sneak Attack. Maybe I'm making too big of a deal about Abrupt Decay. I play Welder MUD as my main Legacy deck, so I figured I would try and port Blightsteel.
Assuming I keep Burning Wish in, would you have any suggestions to better take advantage of it? Or is the whole idea too clunky?
Thanks for the suggestions on card choices and sequencing.
As for leyline, 4 is probably not necessary. In fact it is one of the main reasons for playing confinement main. Confinement is a catch all that can just beat some decks and synergizes with tax. Minimally it acts as a time walk. Leyline tends to come in when speed and upkeep can be an issue. There is also the benefit of avoiding abrupt decay.
Also if you are curious there should be a link to the part of the primer I wrote and my deck list in my signature.
-----The Legacy Flowchart-----
Tiny Leaders Overlord
I've tried to include "free" spells in the wish board where i could, if time is of the essence, and I meet the alternative casting cost requirements, I will wish for one of those.
I like Armageddon as a wish target, nice idea.
I'm using Call the Skybreaker as my wish win con. The retrace cost is easily met with the tax rack engine.
About Sneak Attack/Blightsteel:
I keep coming back to the abrupt decay issue, it seems like this deck is extra vulnerable to it. Belcher would normally serve the purpose of a decay-proof win con, but I feel that Crystal Vein is worth running for the tempo and synergy.
The new Elspeth as a 2 of might be a nice replacement for my Sneak Attack/Blightsteel approach. She is relevant on her own at least.
I've read through this whole thread so I've been able to see everyone's variations. It seems yours has become the norm though.