The Unnamed Combo Deck: Balustrade Spy and Undercity Informer
This deck abuses the two new gatecrash cards Balustrade Spy and Undercity Informer. The idea of the deck is that it mills itself as early as turn one. The deck then plays like a breakfast deck and uses dread returns to pull out a win condition. The most common one being Dread Return targeting Angel of Glory's Rise which brings back Laboratory Maniac and Azami, Lady of Scrolls. From there you just tap a wizard and win!
Advantages over Traditional Belcher
It does not have to target the opponent to win.
Requires Less Mana 4 vs 7.
Does not use the attack step.
Can protect itself with cabal therapy and Cavern of Souls .
Disadvantages over Traditional Belcher .
Hurt by graveyard hate.
Must mulligan more aggressively.
Combo pieces may become stuck in hand.
No lands to fall back on other than in the wish board.
Here is a quick list for what I have been testing. The Phyrexian Negators are just temporary slots.
Unless you actually run Belchers, this isn't a new Belcher deck, it's a new Hermit Druid deck.
Your current version also looks pretty shaky on a lot of card choices. Hermit Druid (and new-age variants) is famous for being a one-card combo that can protect itself with both Cabal Therapy AND Force of Will, yet you run only a single Therapy. Run at least 2 Therapy and 4 Force of Will, probably 3/4.
Spy and Informer are both barely passable Hermit Druids for costing twice as much, though they make up for it moderately by not needing an untap step.
Memnite is useless in this deck. You aren't running Culling the Weak (and you shouldn't), you have Narcies to sac/make Zombies, Memnite is just weak. I suppose it can be a free Therapy flashback, but that's not the best use of space.
LED is pretty bad here. Belcher uses it to activate Belcher. You use it...to activate Informer, badly.
Careful Study will allow you to dig quickly and pitch combo pieces. More Therapies will allow you to ditch combo pieces as well.
Reanimate and a big target or two could be a powerful backup plan, as it also allows you to Careful Study away your own Spy and bring it back, for only 2 mana. And it is a way to fight through Force when they counter Spy.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
Unless you actually run Belchers, this isn't a new Belcher deck, it's a new Hermit Druid deck.
Your current version also looks pretty shaky on a lot of card choices. Hermit Druid (and new-age variants) is famous for being a one-card combo that can protect itself with both Cabal Therapy AND Force of Will, yet you run only a single Therapy. Run at least 2 Therapy and 4 Force of Will, probably 3/4.
Spy and Informer are both barely passable Hermit Druids for costing twice as much, though they make up for it moderately by not needing an untap step.
Memnite is useless in this deck. You aren't running Culling the Weak (and you shouldn't), you have Narcies to sac/make Zombies, Memnite is just weak. I suppose it can be a free Therapy flashback, but that's not the best use of space.
LED is pretty bad here. Belcher uses it to activate Belcher. You use it...to activate Informer, badly.
Careful Study will allow you to dig quickly and pitch combo pieces. More Therapies will allow you to ditch combo pieces as well.
Reanimate and a big target or two could be a powerful backup plan, as it also allows you to Careful Study away your own Spy and bring it back, for only 2 mana. And it is a way to fight through Force when they counter Spy.
Memnite is used to help turn on Mox opal but I will admit they are the weakest card in the main. They also allow for extra Undercity Informer
activations if a stile occurs.
The LEDs are fine in the list since they help with metal craft and still can provide an intinal black source when combined with living wish.
Finding an initial black source is the hardest thing in this deck since it runs no lands. This makes any non free and non mana producing spell a complete liability unless its a sideboard card or tutor.
I would Run pact of negation main before force of will. This deck will rarely have two blue cards in its hand so force is near useless.
I have been getting around 35+% Turn one win rate with this deck and around 60% with two extra draws.
If you don't like the name that is fine but it is basically a combination between the two decks. It is Belcher's mana base and Breakfast's win condition.
I'm not saying that I don't like the name, I'm saying that the name is completely inaccurate. It is not a mix of Belcher and anything. The only thing this has in common with Belcher is the lack of lands.
This deck attempts to use one card to mill itself completely as fast as possible. That is the core idea of the deck, and it is clearly a Hermit Druid knockoff, not a Belcher knock off.
Based on your statement about LED, I don't think you understand how to run a landless deck. Having played many landless Legacy and Vintage decks, I can tell you that non-mana cards are not a liability. Mana is not a more precious resource simply because you don't run lands. Mana just comes form different sources. Your current list runs 20 non-LED mana sources that can essentially be considered lands, except you can play more than one per turn.
Force is fine here, because, if you'd noticed, I am suggesting adding a lot of Blue to the deck. I didn't mention in my first post, but you definitely want 4 Chain of Vapor in the sideboard.
The Force/Therapy package gives you much more protection and allows you to Therapy yourself to ditch combo pieces when you go off.
Progenitus is a failsafe if you need an extra draw step for some reason, pitches to Force, and provides every color of mana through Chrome Mox. Now all of your Summoner's Pacts "pitch" to Force.
Infernal Tutor abuses LED much better than Living Wish does.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
Another kill option for this is The Mimeoplasm, Triskelion, and Lord of Extinction. While it does target, it also plays around Stifle. I've been testing a version of this worked up on another forum. Testing there is showing that the dig type of spells, Gitaxian Probes etc, are unnecessary. There is essentially nothing in there other than rituals, the wincon package, and Cabal Therapy. Testing is also suggesting that some of the Rituals could go for Pact of Negation as a sideboard option against decks with a strong chance of first turn Force of Will.
Really the only chance and advantage this deck is going to have is blind speed. Anything to increase the first turn win percentage is essential. It's entirely susceptible to any kind of graveyard hate, force, etc, so you just have to go off in a hurry and hope that nobody has a turn 1 answer.
Though I do think it is silly to try and name a deck before it even has a full list, I want to point out that magic has a strong tradition of naming decks after breakfast items. Cephalid breakfast, cheerios, raisin bran, fruity pebbles etc. I don't think this one should be any different.
Well, blind speed is a smallish advantage in a format with Force of Will. There just isn't a lot of room for protection, what room there is runs a high risk of slowing you down, and any loss of speed is death to a bunch of other things. Honestly anything after turn 2 is just dumb luck for this deck. Once they know what you're doing, there are so many turn 1 plays that can be made against you. Any hand disruption, a Relic of Progenitus, any sort of counter magic, it's all bad. The turn 1 kill rate needs to be really high, like well over 50% for this to really work I think, on a competitive level anyhow.
EDIT: Also regarding combo pieces being stuck in hand; Cabal therapy can help here. If all 4 of your Narcomoeba were milled, or if you managed to drop a Wild Cantor or Tinder Wall or something before going off, you can Cabal Therapy yourself to get Lord of Extinction/Azami/Dread Return/Whatever into the yard. The only thing that really sucks is getting 2 Narcomoeba in your hand. You are almost definitely screwed in that case.
Well since cabal therapy forces you to discard every copy, 2 narcomoeba would be no different than one. an extincion and a dread return would be an issue though. BooBerry uses phantasmagorian to offset that issue.
Yah, I had thought of Phantasmagorian, the other problem though is that often you don't have three cards in your hand after casting a bunch of spirit guides/rituals/chrome mox. It's a pretty specific occurrence to be sure, but it's come up for me in testing a couple of times so far. Good call on discarding all copies, heh, think I'm too used to Duress.
EDIT: Also to weigh in on the name, int he other forum I've been following this deck on, they've been calling it 'Breakfast Burrito'. Not sure what the Burrito connection is but hey.
Having an LED also solves any issues of combo pieces in hand.
I don't think the deck is capable of running Force. You just can't support the blue count needed. 8 non-Force, non-combo blue cards? No way that's even remotely consistent. Pact of Negation would just be better if you wanted the effect. You win the then you combo out a majority of the time anyways. The only time you wouldn't is when you are resolving Undercity Informant and don't have the mana to activate it which should be fairly uncommon.
Having an LED also solves any issues of combo pieces in hand.
I don't think the deck is capable of running Force. You just can't support the blue count needed. 8 non-Force, non-combo blue cards? No way that's even remotely consistent. Pact of Negation would just be better if you wanted the effect. You win the then you combo out a majority of the time anyways. The only time you wouldn't is when you are resolving Undercity Informant and don't have the mana to activate it which should be fairly uncommon.
Did you see my proposed list? I run waaaaay more than 8 cards that can pitch to Force, and you ALWAYS count the other Forces, because, duh, they pitch.
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Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
The best name for this deck so far, in my opinion, is "Hobo with a Shotgun." Harkens back to the days when Men were Men and decks were named stuff like "The Deck," "The Rock and His Millions," and not just for existing the archetype they most resemble.
Anyway, read all threads on the topic and swap ideas. This one-card combo has legs, and people are going to break it wide open once they get the right formula. I'm excited to see which format breaks first.
The way I see it is you land grant to grab your bayou then ritual into an informer you then crack a petal to mill through your entire deck to get infinite zombies and haste them for the win. I really dont know how/what else to do with it to make it simpler.
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"You can't stop the signal, Mel." - Mr. Universe
If wizards would print a green, black and white version of Hydroblast and Blue Elemental Blast Painter could be done in every color.
Running test hands on this list this morning is showing a higher than 50% first turn kill rate (17 kills of 28 runs). 3 of the failures would have worked had I included Deathrite Shaman in the list I ran. Further, infernal tutor seemed to be the least effective item, so I've turned one into a Deathrite Shaman in this list:
Tennfingers, I really must insist... Why are you using more balustrade spy than undercity informer ? What is the justification behind it? It doesn't make sense to me...
There is 1 Undercity Informer in the sideboard as a Living Wish target. You could put either in the board it really doesn't matter, as both equate to 3B in terms of generating the effect. Undercity Informer is ever so slightly more flexible, since if you can play him with a Lion's Eye Diamond in play, you can crack the Diamond then to pay for his activation cost and then discarding your hand won't matter, whereas all of the mana for the Spy will need to be upfront, but that's a pretty small difference.
Stays on the battlefield after self-milling (can be sacced to Therapy)
Cons:
Costs 4 mana (yes, I've run into DR into Informer into LED being relevant, so this is a drawback)
I've currently stuck a Spy in the Living Wishboard because I like the Therapy interaction, but Wish into Informer is 1 mana cheaper and can be clutch if you can only produce 5 mana (e.g. 2 IMS's into DR into Cabal Ritual into Wish into Informer into LED).
There is 1 Undercity Informer in the sideboard as a Living Wish target. You could put either in the board it really doesn't matter, as both equate to 3B in terms of generating the effect. Undercity Informer is ever so slightly more flexible, since if you can play him with a Lion's Eye Diamond in play, you can crack the Diamond then to pay for his activation cost and then discarding your hand won't matter, whereas all of the mana for the Spy will need to be upfront, but that's a pretty small difference.
1 mana is a big difference for a deck that runs no mana (land) wishing for an informer is just bad. its like wishing for a trinket mage so you can tutor a tutor and say Done because you have no more options left.
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A team should be as happy as a meal - TEAM HAPPYMEAL
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tronGR
Buy All the planeswalkers!!!
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
I've had this come up a couple times in goldfishing.
Two mana available for Living Wish (or Infernal), crack LED in response for BBB.
Tutor for Undercity Informer and cast off the LED. Hope to draw a mana source next turn, or if you had a Chrome Mox untap and win.
Not ideal, but I've had some hands where I had to mulligan to the point where it was the only option available to me. That's why I have three Informers and one in the board as opposed to the Spy.
EDIT: And I have to add my voice to the numbers here. Belcher breakfast is not the best of names... So far I've seen "spy hard" and "second coming of the hermit"... There has to be something better...
@hagalaz I'm sorry I meant to ask if the deck was made less fragile by not having to dig for just one win condition but having multiple cards to combo off with and the answer is both yes and no. the fundamentsal problem still exsists but it's severly mitigated. I am well aware of the limitations of Destroy the Evidence you forgot that it makes the deck auto lose to Wasteland, Stripmine and even freakin Ghost Quarter but I have been playing my list since RTR dropped and this was the only grind card available. I'm planning on dropping DTE and Seething Songs for the new cards
...
Progenitus is a failsafe if you need an extra draw step for some reason, pitches to Force, and provides every color of mana through Chrome Mox. Now all of your Summoner's Pacts "pitch" to Force.
Interesting thing about Progenitus (and any card with that kind of shuffle effect) : If you're milling yourself, the card in question doesn't wait until you're done milling to shuffle itself back into the deck. Progenitus shuffles itself back into the deck before the milling continues. I'm pretty sure what translates to for this deck is that as a fail safe, instead of a mulligan in the game, you can just throw the game as a draw with an infinite loop and try again next game.
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Vive, vale. Siquid novisti rectius istis,
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
Advantages over Traditional Belcher
4 Narcomoeba
1 Cabal Therapy
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
2 Mox Opal
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Memnite
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Living Wish
4 Balustrade Spy
3 Undercity Informer
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Undercity Informer
4 Pact of Negation
4 Nature's Claim
1 Bayou
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Phyrexian Negator
Comments and suggestions are welcome.
Your current version also looks pretty shaky on a lot of card choices. Hermit Druid (and new-age variants) is famous for being a one-card combo that can protect itself with both Cabal Therapy AND Force of Will, yet you run only a single Therapy. Run at least 2 Therapy and 4 Force of Will, probably 3/4.
Spy and Informer are both barely passable Hermit Druids for costing twice as much, though they make up for it moderately by not needing an untap step.
Memnite is useless in this deck. You aren't running Culling the Weak (and you shouldn't), you have Narcies to sac/make Zombies, Memnite is just weak. I suppose it can be a free Therapy flashback, but that's not the best use of space.
LED is pretty bad here. Belcher uses it to activate Belcher. You use it...to activate Informer, badly.
Careful Study will allow you to dig quickly and pitch combo pieces. More Therapies will allow you to ditch combo pieces as well.
Reanimate and a big target or two could be a powerful backup plan, as it also allows you to Careful Study away your own Spy and bring it back, for only 2 mana. And it is a way to fight through Force when they counter Spy.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Memnite is used to help turn on Mox opal but I will admit they are the weakest card in the main. They also allow for extra Undercity Informer
activations if a stile occurs.
The LEDs are fine in the list since they help with metal craft and still can provide an intinal black source when combined with living wish.
Finding an initial black source is the hardest thing in this deck since it runs no lands. This makes any non free and non mana producing spell a complete liability unless its a sideboard card or tutor.
I would Run pact of negation main before force of will. This deck will rarely have two blue cards in its hand so force is near useless.
I have been getting around 35+% Turn one win rate with this deck and around 60% with two extra draws.
If you don't like the name that is fine but it is basically a combination between the two decks. It is Belcher's mana base and Breakfast's win condition.
Thank you for the input.
http://deckstats.net/deck-1858780-29f9b05cf8daa3d2f6be3d57c2d48bdb.html
Carrion Feeder = Informer
Bloodghast = Spy
Turn 1 kill > 50% of time if you mull when not having informer, spy, wish, or infernal tutor in opening hand.
This deck attempts to use one card to mill itself completely as fast as possible. That is the core idea of the deck, and it is clearly a Hermit Druid knockoff, not a Belcher knock off.
Based on your statement about LED, I don't think you understand how to run a landless deck. Having played many landless Legacy and Vintage decks, I can tell you that non-mana cards are not a liability. Mana is not a more precious resource simply because you don't run lands. Mana just comes form different sources. Your current list runs 20 non-LED mana sources that can essentially be considered lands, except you can play more than one per turn.
Force is fine here, because, if you'd noticed, I am suggesting adding a lot of Blue to the deck. I didn't mention in my first post, but you definitely want 4 Chain of Vapor in the sideboard.
I would try something like this:
4 Undercity Informer
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Careful Study
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Dark Ritual
3 Manamorphose
4 Force of Will
1 Progenitus
1 Dread Return
3 Narcomoeba
1 Bridge from Below
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Lotus Petal
4 Summoner's Pact
3 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
The Force/Therapy package gives you much more protection and allows you to Therapy yourself to ditch combo pieces when you go off.
Progenitus is a failsafe if you need an extra draw step for some reason, pitches to Force, and provides every color of mana through Chrome Mox. Now all of your Summoner's Pacts "pitch" to Force.
Infernal Tutor abuses LED much better than Living Wish does.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
Really the only chance and advantage this deck is going to have is blind speed. Anything to increase the first turn win percentage is essential. It's entirely susceptible to any kind of graveyard hate, force, etc, so you just have to go off in a hurry and hope that nobody has a turn 1 answer.
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EDIT: Also regarding combo pieces being stuck in hand; Cabal therapy can help here. If all 4 of your Narcomoeba were milled, or if you managed to drop a Wild Cantor or Tinder Wall or something before going off, you can Cabal Therapy yourself to get Lord of Extinction/Azami/Dread Return/Whatever into the yard. The only thing that really sucks is getting 2 Narcomoeba in your hand. You are almost definitely screwed in that case.
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Getting Started in Legacy and Legacy Budget Primer 5!
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EDIT: Also to weigh in on the name, int he other forum I've been following this deck on, they've been calling it 'Breakfast Burrito'. Not sure what the Burrito connection is but hey.
I don't think the deck is capable of running Force. You just can't support the blue count needed. 8 non-Force, non-combo blue cards? No way that's even remotely consistent. Pact of Negation would just be better if you wanted the effect. You win the then you combo out a majority of the time anyways. The only time you wouldn't is when you are resolving Undercity Informant and don't have the mana to activate it which should be fairly uncommon.
Did you see my proposed list? I run waaaaay more than 8 cards that can pitch to Force, and you ALWAYS count the other Forces, because, duh, they pitch.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44954.0
...and Legacy.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25386-The-Rogue-Hermit\
The best name for this deck so far, in my opinion, is "Hobo with a Shotgun." Harkens back to the days when Men were Men and decks were named stuff like "The Deck," "The Rock and His Millions," and not just for existing the archetype they most resemble.
Anyway, read all threads on the topic and swap ideas. This one-card combo has legs, and people are going to break it wide open once they get the right formula. I'm excited to see which format breaks first.
4 Narcomoeba
3 Gaea's Blessing
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Flame-Kin Zealot
3 Dread Return
3 Burning Wish
4 Land Grant
1 Bayou
The way I see it is you land grant to grab your bayou then ritual into an informer you then crack a petal to mill through your entire deck to get infinite zombies and haste them for the win. I really dont know how/what else to do with it to make it simpler.
If wizards would print a green, black and white version of Hydroblast and Blue Elemental Blast Painter could be done in every color.
RRImperial PainterRR
UUUUMonoOmniTellUUUU
BGURWDredgeWRUGB
4x Desperate Ritual
3x Pyretic Ritual
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Manamorphose
4x Land Grant
4x Dark Ritual
1x The Mimeoplasm
1x Dread Return
1x Lord of Extinction
1x Deathbringer Thoctar
3x Lotus Petal
1x Overgrown Tomb
4x Brainstorm
4x Faithless Looting
4x Seething Song
3x Narcomoeba
3x Gitaxian Probe
4x Cabal Therapy
here is what I've been working with based on the grind mechanic do you feel like spy and informer are stronger than destory the evidence? if so why?
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
4 Balustrade Spy
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Lord of Extinction
4 Narcomoeba
4 Simian Spirit Guide
1 The Mimeoplasm
1 Triskelion
3 Undercity Informer
1 Deathrite Shaman
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Dread Return
2 Infernal Tutor
4 Living Wish
4 Rite of Flame
Instant (12)
4 Dark Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Summoner's Pact
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
I don't have the sideboard all worked out yet, but just assume there is an Undercity Informer to wish for in there, as well as a swamp.
There is 1 Undercity Informer in the sideboard as a Living Wish target. You could put either in the board it really doesn't matter, as both equate to 3B in terms of generating the effect. Undercity Informer is ever so slightly more flexible, since if you can play him with a Lion's Eye Diamond in play, you can crack the Diamond then to pay for his activation cost and then discarding your hand won't matter, whereas all of the mana for the Spy will need to be upfront, but that's a pretty small difference.
Undercity Informer
Pros:
Balustrade Spy
Pros:
I've currently stuck a Spy in the Living Wishboard because I like the Therapy interaction, but Wish into Informer is 1 mana cheaper and can be clutch if you can only produce 5 mana (e.g. 2 IMS's into DR into Cabal Ritual into Wish into Informer into LED).
1 mana is a big difference for a deck that runs no mana (land) wishing for an informer is just bad. its like wishing for a trinket mage so you can tutor a tutor and say Done because you have no more options left.
EDH - UWGrand Arbiter Agustin IV
UBW Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
Modern - Mono U tron / Polymorph / NFTW (ninja for the win)GR tron GR
Buy All the Dual Lands!!!
Buy All the fetches!
Create tons of EDH Decks!!!
Eat Nothing but Oats!! (LOL, not true)
Train MMA!!!
Marry My girlfriend!!!
Get her Pregnant only Once!
Teach my Son/Daughter Sports and magic cards!!!
Continue my legacy son!!!/Daughter!!
Two mana available for Living Wish (or Infernal), crack LED in response for BBB.
Tutor for Undercity Informer and cast off the LED. Hope to draw a mana source next turn, or if you had a Chrome Mox untap and win.
Not ideal, but I've had some hands where I had to mulligan to the point where it was the only option available to me. That's why I have three Informers and one in the board as opposed to the Spy.
I like "Spy Hard".
I like the "Hobo with a Shotgun" name they went with on the other site.
RGoblinsR
RWerewolf StompyR
URU/R DelverRU
RGBelcherGR
BThe GateB
GBLoam PoxBG
WGBNic FitBGW
UHigh TideU
UMerfolkU
UFaerieNinjaStillU
WBUAffinityUBW
GSquirrelsG
UWGSliversGWU
I like Spy Hard too.
Interesting thing about Progenitus (and any card with that kind of shuffle effect) : If you're milling yourself, the card in question doesn't wait until you're done milling to shuffle itself back into the deck. Progenitus shuffles itself back into the deck before the milling continues. I'm pretty sure what translates to for this deck is that as a fail safe, instead of a mulligan in the game, you can just throw the game as a draw with an infinite loop and try again next game.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~