I don't know anything about this deck but it keeps bugging me when I see "Unnamed Combo" in the title LOL. I think name is pretty obvious from the cards mentioned, simply:
So... do i build this deck or Belcher !?(competitive and fun point of view ) Some people say that this deck is just Worst than Belcher... :S
thx !:D
I can't really see that being true. Belcher has slightly more consistent mana generation, but this deck has Cabal Therapy and Chancellor of the Annex to protect the combo. It seem like it should be about on par with Belcher, or even better.
Strictly better. Cause this deck can win without targeting opponent. Some decks have Leyline of sanctity in the SB to hose belcher and snapshot.
Belcher might want to go for Empty the Warren game 2, but EtW is such a fragile win condition, since Show and Tell would not even care about these tokens while other decks can just EE or put down Ethersworn.
For this deck, if it goes to Belcher game 2 to avoid the obvious graveyard hate, your opponent would have dead Rest in Peace... etc.
At least with current incarnations, I don't think this deck is strictly better than Belcher. You'd think being able to go off with less mana would make this deck more consistent, but I've found that getting any two of a win con/Narcomoeba/Dread Return stranded in hand to be nearly an auto-mull, and even getting one of them stranded can get annoying. Even after I amped up my mana sources to include 4 Chancellor of the Tangle and 2 Simian Spirit Guide (already running 8 rituals/4 Petals/4 LED/4 ESG/4 Summoner's Pact/1 Wild Cantor), I still feel that this deck's Turn 1 win percentage is measurably lower than Belcher's. It has to mull more often and it can have trouble fixing its mana (Wild Cantor helps a lot, but I can only fit in so many of it).
yeah, having trouble with LED. With it you almost wanna run wish/tutor or else its only to discard cards needed in hand or for undercity. And without them it gives us more room. I think I'm gonna go no led first then go from there, mainly for budget reasons lol
and for the decks name:
we have a "Lands" deck: called "Lands"
this runs no lands, so why not call it "Landless"?
One question to the people playing Gitaxian Probe:
Is it really good? When I tested Carddraw, I didn't really liked it, since you cannto keep a hand withou one of the 8 creatures anyway.
And then the carddraw would need to find a ritual most of the time.
Especially since he is playing Chancellors I don't like the carddraw, since drawing them is not what you want.
Also I think I like the Chancellor of the Annex against Show and Tell.
If we cannot win on turn one it would be best to not show the Chancellor to a Show and Tell oppoennt and drop him if they play show and tell and then go off in your turn. Since they will not be able to win in their turn (unless they have Omniscience and Emrakul) it will protect our combo in our next turn against Force of Will and so on.
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My new houserules:
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
Probe is useful to see what you're up against, although there's not often much you can do about it anyway. you're right about needing to cantrip into mana, so the only real alternative would be to play another mana source in it's place, and I'm not sure what you'd play. Possibly go all in on chancellors and play the green one main as well?
I can certainly see the argument for not revealing chancellor against S+T, but in every game I played against it on Sunday, they just went for it anyway, so you don't gain that much. S+T is a pretty good matchup anyway, 'cause they let you put informer in for free, and if they can't kill you immediately, you go off on your next turn with therapies to take counterspells before they can use them.
You absolutely need LED + living wish in my opinion. 8 win-cons gives you only a 65% chance of having a rogue in your opening hand. Do you really want to mulligan down to 6 (maybe lower) once every 3 games? Also, one single thoughtseize/duress while you're on the play is pretty much game over since they'll most likely take away your single rogue. Living wish can also fix your mana by pulling a swamp from the wishboard and protects your combo with cavern of souls. Your opponent can still counter your mana source but that's much better than getting blown out by having your rogues countered. Gitaxian probes work for belcher because they increase the storm count for free. It does almost nothing in this deck except for the off chance you get to play cabal therapy from hand but at the expense of making your mulligan decisions tougher. Try my list below and compare it to Ben Williams' list and you'll see what I mean.
I'm going to be testing out a LEDless build, and I will definitely be using Living Wish. I suggest maining the Spy over the Informer (for that one slot) simply for that slight resilience you get to IoK.
Sorry about that. Just added the tag. I have informer md because it can use LED for that 4th mana and spy can be fetched via wish to give an additional creature in case I have narcomoebas stuck in hand.
Sorry about that. Just added the tag. I have informer md because it can use LED for that 4th mana and spy can be fetched via wish to give an additional creature in case I have narcomoebas stuck in hand.
Isn't LED a dead card if you have the Spy and not the Informer? You cannot play the Spy if your final mana source is LED since you have to discard your hand to generate the final mana. I can definitely see Wish as being useful for significantly increasing the chances of getting the Spy/Informer, but I'm not sold on LED.
Are there any other reasons LED should be included?
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"When you're playing legacy everyday is Christmas." ~Moa
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
Isn't LED a dead card if you have the Spy and not the Informer? You cannot play the Spy if your final mana source is LED since you have to discard your hand to generate the final mana. I can definitely see Wish as being useful for significantly increasing the chances of getting the Spy/Informer, but I'm not sold on LED.
Are there any other reasons LED should be included?
Yes, LED is a dead card if you only have the spy. That's why I placed the single spy in the wishboard to maximize the use of informer with LED. I also just tweaked the list I posted to have a 3-2 split between narcomoeba and bridge from below. In addition to discarding combo pieces, LED discards bridges which reduces the chance of not having creatures available to sac to therapy and dread return. This allows for the cutting of 1 therapy and 1 narcomoeba/bridge post-board for sb options. LED also becomes more valuable if you add 1+ infernal tutors in addition to wish. Finally, LED gives you the option of swapping belchers for wishes post-board to dodge gy hate.
Probe is useful to see what you're up against, although there's not often much you can do about it anyway. you're right about needing to cantrip into mana, so the only real alternative would be to play another mana source in it's place, and I'm not sure what you'd play. Possibly go all in on chancellors and play the green one main as well?
I can certainly see the argument for not revealing chancellor against S+T, but in every game I played against it on Sunday, they just went for it anyway, so you don't gain that much. S+T is a pretty good matchup anyway, 'cause they let you put informer in for free, and if they can't kill you immediately, you go off on your next turn with therapies to take counterspells before they can use them.
I was playing an all in version without the Chancellor of the Annex main anyway.
I play your list with green instead of white Chancellor main and with Tinder Wall instead of Gitexian Probe main.
But maybe it would be better to switch the two Chancellors as they are in your build.
But in my testing carddraw was just quite bad, this is why i don't really like the Probe (also the more carddraw you have the bigger the chances of drawing combo pieces).
Ok maybe you are right with S n T I just thought that if they don't expected it they will maybe make the error of playing it without emediatly winning more often.
And about Living Wish.
I cannot see having 6 Mana for Living Wish without Lion's Eye Diamond.
And having Lion's Eye Diamond with the Spy is as mentioned also useless.
Also with the Living Wish you have like an 80% Chance of Having a Winning Source in your Oppening hand instead of a 65% Chance.
So you still have to take a mulligan every fith game instead of every third game. And you have a way more fragile Manabase.
Also the Chances of having no Spy in 6 cards (without the Living Wish) is: 59%
So only in 14% of the games you have to mulligan to 5.
And in only 6% of the games you have to mulligan to 4.
Of course this can happen, but this is acceptable somehow.
Of course the 80% are better, but having Mana Problems is also something which is not nice. I tested some versions with the Wish mainboard, but I allways got Mana Problems...
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My new houserules:
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
I'm not a huge combo player; can someone explain living wish to me? Can this deck generate enough mana consistently enough to cast wish plus our rogue?
also, I understand LED infernal tutor but people are saying LED wish is good? Do we float mana and cast wish, then crack LED for rest?
I was playing an all in version without the Chancellor of the Annex main anyway.
I play your list with green instead of white Chancellor main and with Tinder Wall instead of Gitexian Probe main.
But maybe it would be better to switch the two Chancellors as they are in your build.
But in my testing carddraw was just quite bad, this is why i don't really like the Probe (also the more carddraw you have the bigger the chances of drawing combo pieces).
Ok maybe you are right with S n T I just thought that if they don't expected it they will maybe make the error of playing it without emediatly winning more often.
And about Living Wish.
I cannot see having 6 Mana for Living Wish without Lion's Eye Diamond.
And having Lion's Eye Diamond with the Spy is as mentioned also useless.
Also with the Living Wish you have like an 80% Chance of Having a Winning Source in your Oppening hand instead of a 65% Chance.
So you still have to take a mulligan every fith game instead of every third game. And you have a way more fragile Manabase.
Also the Chances of having no Spy in 6 cards (without the Living Wish) is: 59%
So only in 14% of the games you have to mulligan to 5.
And in only 6% of the games you have to mulligan to 4.
Of course this can happen, but this is acceptable somehow.
Of course the 80% are better, but having Mana Problems is also something which is not nice. I tested some versions with the Wish mainboard, but I allways got Mana Problems...
In many of the instances where you have living wish, you'll also have at least one of the rogues so they'll be your primary option. In these cases, you'll most likely win anyways. However, living wish helps when you don't actually draw the rogue because you still can potential go off. In addition, half your matches you'll be on the draw. What happens if they t1 thoughtseize you with only 1 rogue in hand?
If living wish is your only win-con, LED is ideal but I've managed to generate 6 mana within 2 draw steps in my goldfishing more times than not. Though admittedly rare, I've even done it without a draw step. Moreover, if chrome mox is in your hand, you only need 5 sources since you can reuse the mox the next turn if needed. This situation is actually very relevant.
It might just be a difference of opinion but I feel there's a big difference between mulling once every 5 games as opposed to 3.
Unless you're running 4 tinder walls (instead of cyclers) in addition to all of the mana generation I'm running, I don't think my mana generation is that much less with regards to density. Moreover, living wish for swamp off mox/spirit guides to turn on dark ritual and cast rogue is a very common play for me during testing. This not only fixes your mana but opens up many more lines of play. Furthermore, there are occasions where you can wish for cavern of souls to fight through FoW.
Your concerns about LED not playing with spy are valid and I'll concede that the deck isn't as explosive as the one running cyclers. However, generating 4 mana with spy usually isn't a problem anyways. I think the redundancy makes LED+wish versions much more resilient.
I'm not a huge combo player; can someone explain living wish to me? Can this deck generate enough mana consistently enough to cast wish plus our rogue?
also, I understand LED infernal tutor but people are saying LED wish is good? Do we float mana and cast wish, then crack LED for rest?
Yes, generate 3 mana to cast wish and crack LED in response.
I actually like having card draw in this deck. It's a combo deck after all. You need the cantrips to hit all of your pieces. You need a critical mass of spells to go off. Multiple rituals into a spy/informer.
Having Living Wish is a personal preference, IMO. I don't think it's quite needed in this build, but having the extra insurance that you will "draw" your enabler is quite appealing.
I've been working on a version with the Recross the Paths kill...having no lands in your deck stacks it after Recross resolves. Thus you can set up Meditate into three LEDs and a Gitaxian Probe, and then from their you can win. (Watch SCG video of the 0 land Belcher kill to understand this point).
There's been talk about including Living Wish to increase the consistency of getting your Spy/Informer, but what about Worldly Tutor? It costs 1 less mana overall and if you have any kind of cyclers and/or draw power it works really well. Even without, it pretty much guarantees you can go off next turn if you didn't draw Spy/Informer.
Thoughts?
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"When you're playing legacy everyday is Christmas." ~Moa
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
Just my observation. I haven't yet built this deck.
Generating Black Mana? This deck has 4 chrome mox, 4 Lotus petals, 4 Manamorphose, and Wild Cantors, if you want to run them, to generate black mana. This deck only has 8 spies/informers. The Worldly tutor can get the spies/informers at the cost of only 1 green mana, whereas Living Wish will set you back 2 mana, which this deck cannot afford unless your cracking LED which has too many drawbacks IMO. The tutor can also get you mana filters as you stated, which I hadn't even considered yet. As previously stated, with only 8 copies of the spies/informers, the odds of drawing them in your opening hand are not quite good enough to be really consistent and Both Living Wish and Worldly Tutor solve this issue, but Worldly tutor does it for 1 less mana at the cost of slightly less utility.
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"When you're playing legacy everyday is Christmas." ~Moa
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
Generating Black Mana? This deck has 4 chrome mox, 4 Lotus petals, 4 Manamorphose, and Wild Cantors, if you want to run them, to generate black mana. This deck only has 8 spies/informers. The Worldly tutor can get the spies/informers at the cost of only 1 green mana, whereas Living Wish will set you back 2 mana, which this deck cannot afford unless your cracking LED which has too many drawbacks IMO. The tutor can also get you mana filters as you stated, which I hadn't even considered yet. As previously stated, with only 8 copies of the spies/informers, the odds of drawing them in your opening hand are not quite good enough to be really consistent and Both Living Wish and Worldly Tutor solve this issue, but Worldly tutor does it for 1 less mana at the cost of slightly less utility.
but living wish does give you the card in hand, even though you pay one more.
our only draw cards are probe wraith and manamorph.
i'm a little torn on the choice of wish or tutor since both have equal pros and cons.
i guess if we can generate the mana regardless, wish and tutor would be almost equal, tutor being better.
huh. . . as i'm writing this i kind of like the tutor better since it helps make sure you draw what you want.
but i do like the idea of LED wish together, along with LED in general as it helps discard what we don't want in our hand so we don't have to waste a therapy on ourselves and use it on an opponent. but using therapy and not LED keeps us on a cheap budget and still can discard key parts in our hand.
of course if our opponent could stop us, it would be at instant speed and therapy might not matter if we tried it on them so we might as well just go for it lol.
darn! back on the fence. tutor vs wish. both are good.
so are we suggesting exchanging pact for tutor or wish for tutor?
but living wish does give you the card in hand, even though you pay one more.
our only draw cards are probe wraith and manamorph.
i'm a little torn on the choice of wish or tutor since both have equal pros and cons.
i guess if we can generate the mana regardless, wish and tutor would be almost equal, tutor being better.
huh. . . as i'm writing this i kind of like the tutor better since it helps make sure you draw what you want.
but i do like the idea of LED wish together, along with LED in general as it helps discard what we don't want in our hand so we don't have to waste a therapy on ourselves and use it on an opponent. but using therapy and not LED keeps us on a cheap budget and still can discard key parts in our hand.
of course if our opponent could stop us, it would be at instant speed and therapy might not matter if we tried it on them so we might as well just go for it lol.
darn! back on the fence. tutor vs wish. both are good.
so are we suggesting exchanging pact for tutor or wish for tutor?
I'm suggesting exchanging wish for tutor and removing any LEDs and adding probes and wraiths, if you don't already have them.
The main reason I don't like Living Wish is because I'm against LED. The main reasons I'm so against LED is because it's worthless if you have the spy and not the informer, which is half of your win conditions, needs both living wish and LED in hand to be really useful since Living Wish alone is too costly without LED, doesn't allow for pact in hand or anything similar for that matter, generates 3 mana to pay a cost of 1 for informer, etc. It just seems to have too many drawbacks that Worldly Tutor doesn't seem to have. Additionally, Living Wish alone takes two mana to fetch the Spy/Informer and this deck has a near impossible time paying two mana just to fetch the Spy/Informer and still generate enough to cast them.
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"When you're playing legacy everyday is Christmas." ~Moa
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
^^yeah that makes a lot of sense. and with 12 draw cards, using a tutor shouldn't be a problem when we can easily draw the creature we put on top.
so in this version do you still run pacts or chancellor of the tangle?
slowly trying to perfect my version
and i assume if you get a piece or two of the combo in hand, you just cabal therapy yourself? because in that situation 1 bridge from below in the deck would be useful and if you don't get in grave, maybe we can put it on the mox
The Spy Informant
I can't really see that being true. Belcher has slightly more consistent mana generation, but this deck has Cabal Therapy and Chancellor of the Annex to protect the combo. It seem like it should be about on par with Belcher, or even better.
At least with current incarnations, I don't think this deck is strictly better than Belcher. You'd think being able to go off with less mana would make this deck more consistent, but I've found that getting any two of a win con/Narcomoeba/Dread Return stranded in hand to be nearly an auto-mull, and even getting one of them stranded can get annoying. Even after I amped up my mana sources to include 4 Chancellor of the Tangle and 2 Simian Spirit Guide (already running 8 rituals/4 Petals/4 LED/4 ESG/4 Summoner's Pact/1 Wild Cantor), I still feel that this deck's Turn 1 win percentage is measurably lower than Belcher's. It has to mull more often and it can have trouble fixing its mana (Wild Cantor helps a lot, but I can only fit in so many of it).
looks like it. LED doesn't appear to have much to add to the deck. besides paying the sacrifice cost of undercity informer.
R GOBLINSR
WDeath and taxesW
WRParfaitRW
and for the decks name:
we have a "Lands" deck: called "Lands"
this runs no lands, so why not call it "Landless"?
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Is it really good? When I tested Carddraw, I didn't really liked it, since you cannto keep a hand withou one of the 8 creatures anyway.
And then the carddraw would need to find a ritual most of the time.
Especially since he is playing Chancellors I don't like the carddraw, since drawing them is not what you want.
Also I think I like the Chancellor of the Annex against Show and Tell.
If we cannot win on turn one it would be best to not show the Chancellor to a Show and Tell oppoennt and drop him if they play show and tell and then go off in your turn. Since they will not be able to win in their turn (unless they have Omniscience and Emrakul) it will protect our combo in our next turn against Force of Will and so on.
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
I can certainly see the argument for not revealing chancellor against S+T, but in every game I played against it on Sunday, they just went for it anyway, so you don't gain that much. S+T is a pretty good matchup anyway, 'cause they let you put informer in for free, and if they can't kill you immediately, you go off on your next turn with therapies to take counterspells before they can use them.
http://deckstats.net/deck-1950502-934907686724c599595d39d7fa1e2226.html
4 Undercity Informer
3 Balustrade Spy
4 Living Wish
Mana Fixing
4 Summoner's Pact
1 Wild Cantor
Mana Generation
4 Chancellor of the Tangle
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Lotus Petal
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
1 Bridge from Below
1 Dread Return
1 Angel of Glory's Rise
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
1 Laboratory Maniac
1 Balustrade Spy
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Swamp
3 Leyline of Lifeforce
3 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Goblin Charbelcher
Sorry about that. Just added the tag. I have informer md because it can use LED for that 4th mana and spy can be fetched via wish to give an additional creature in case I have narcomoebas stuck in hand.
Isn't LED a dead card if you have the Spy and not the Informer? You cannot play the Spy if your final mana source is LED since you have to discard your hand to generate the final mana. I can definitely see Wish as being useful for significantly increasing the chances of getting the Spy/Informer, but I'm not sold on LED.
Are there any other reasons LED should be included?
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
Yes, LED is a dead card if you only have the spy. That's why I placed the single spy in the wishboard to maximize the use of informer with LED. I also just tweaked the list I posted to have a 3-2 split between narcomoeba and bridge from below. In addition to discarding combo pieces, LED discards bridges which reduces the chance of not having creatures available to sac to therapy and dread return. This allows for the cutting of 1 therapy and 1 narcomoeba/bridge post-board for sb options. LED also becomes more valuable if you add 1+ infernal tutors in addition to wish. Finally, LED gives you the option of swapping belchers for wishes post-board to dodge gy hate.
I was playing an all in version without the Chancellor of the Annex main anyway.
I play your list with green instead of white Chancellor main and with Tinder Wall instead of Gitexian Probe main.
But maybe it would be better to switch the two Chancellors as they are in your build.
But in my testing carddraw was just quite bad, this is why i don't really like the Probe (also the more carddraw you have the bigger the chances of drawing combo pieces).
Ok maybe you are right with S n T I just thought that if they don't expected it they will maybe make the error of playing it without emediatly winning more often.
And about Living Wish.
I cannot see having 6 Mana for Living Wish without Lion's Eye Diamond.
And having Lion's Eye Diamond with the Spy is as mentioned also useless.
Also with the Living Wish you have like an 80% Chance of Having a Winning Source in your Oppening hand instead of a 65% Chance.
So you still have to take a mulligan every fith game instead of every third game. And you have a way more fragile Manabase.
Also the Chances of having no Spy in 6 cards (without the Living Wish) is: 59%
So only in 14% of the games you have to mulligan to 5.
And in only 6% of the games you have to mulligan to 4.
Of course this can happen, but this is acceptable somehow.
Of course the 80% are better, but having Mana Problems is also something which is not nice. I tested some versions with the Wish mainboard, but I allways got Mana Problems...
1. Every player saing exiled or battlefield will be kicked out.
2. Not using you mana deals 2 points of manaburn.
3. Combat damage goes over the Stack and you can freely assign it.
4. Lifelinks does stack and doesn't safe you from dying.
5. Tokens are owned bye the one who has made them.
Everyone thinking M10 will not affect a lot of cards or Limited a lot, either has no clue about magic or has never played limited or is getting paid by wizards to do propaganda.
also, I understand LED infernal tutor but people are saying LED wish is good? Do we float mana and cast wish, then crack LED for rest?
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In many of the instances where you have living wish, you'll also have at least one of the rogues so they'll be your primary option. In these cases, you'll most likely win anyways. However, living wish helps when you don't actually draw the rogue because you still can potential go off. In addition, half your matches you'll be on the draw. What happens if they t1 thoughtseize you with only 1 rogue in hand?
If living wish is your only win-con, LED is ideal but I've managed to generate 6 mana within 2 draw steps in my goldfishing more times than not. Though admittedly rare, I've even done it without a draw step. Moreover, if chrome mox is in your hand, you only need 5 sources since you can reuse the mox the next turn if needed. This situation is actually very relevant.
It might just be a difference of opinion but I feel there's a big difference between mulling once every 5 games as opposed to 3.
Unless you're running 4 tinder walls (instead of cyclers) in addition to all of the mana generation I'm running, I don't think my mana generation is that much less with regards to density. Moreover, living wish for swamp off mox/spirit guides to turn on dark ritual and cast rogue is a very common play for me during testing. This not only fixes your mana but opens up many more lines of play. Furthermore, there are occasions where you can wish for cavern of souls to fight through FoW.
Your concerns about LED not playing with spy are valid and I'll concede that the deck isn't as explosive as the one running cyclers. However, generating 4 mana with spy usually isn't a problem anyways. I think the redundancy makes LED+wish versions much more resilient.
Yes, generate 3 mana to cast wish and crack LED in response.
cool. Looks like I'll have to test out a few versions to see which I like better. Thanks
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Having Living Wish is a personal preference, IMO. I don't think it's quite needed in this build, but having the extra insurance that you will "draw" your enabler is quite appealing.
I've been working on a version with the Recross the Paths kill...having no lands in your deck stacks it after Recross resolves. Thus you can set up Meditate into three LEDs and a Gitaxian Probe, and then from their you can win. (Watch SCG video of the 0 land Belcher kill to understand this point).
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
It sounds cool and identifies the two cards that create the combo.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
Thoughts?
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
Just my observation. I haven't yet built this deck.
Standard: UWR
Modern: RDW, Twin
Legacy: I am 3 Candelabra of Tawnos from being able to build almost any tier 1 or 1.5 deck. Here are the ones I care about right now:
-Aggro: UWR/RUB/WUB/RUG/UR Delver; Affinity; Burn
-Control: Stoneblade; UWr Miracles; UB Tezzeret
-Combo: Hive Mind; Combo Elves; Omni Tell; T.E.S.
Vintage: Grixis Painter
EDH: Rith, the Awakener
Generating Black Mana? This deck has 4 chrome mox, 4 Lotus petals, 4 Manamorphose, and Wild Cantors, if you want to run them, to generate black mana. This deck only has 8 spies/informers. The Worldly tutor can get the spies/informers at the cost of only 1 green mana, whereas Living Wish will set you back 2 mana, which this deck cannot afford unless your cracking LED which has too many drawbacks IMO. The tutor can also get you mana filters as you stated, which I hadn't even considered yet. As previously stated, with only 8 copies of the spies/informers, the odds of drawing them in your opening hand are not quite good enough to be really consistent and Both Living Wish and Worldly Tutor solve this issue, but Worldly tutor does it for 1 less mana at the cost of slightly less utility.
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
but living wish does give you the card in hand, even though you pay one more.
our only draw cards are probe wraith and manamorph.
i'm a little torn on the choice of wish or tutor since both have equal pros and cons.
i guess if we can generate the mana regardless, wish and tutor would be almost equal, tutor being better.
huh. . . as i'm writing this i kind of like the tutor better since it helps make sure you draw what you want.
but i do like the idea of LED wish together, along with LED in general as it helps discard what we don't want in our hand so we don't have to waste a therapy on ourselves and use it on an opponent. but using therapy and not LED keeps us on a cheap budget and still can discard key parts in our hand.
of course if our opponent could stop us, it would be at instant speed and therapy might not matter if we tried it on them so we might as well just go for it lol.
darn! back on the fence. tutor vs wish. both are good.
so are we suggesting exchanging pact for tutor or wish for tutor?
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I'm suggesting exchanging wish for tutor and removing any LEDs and adding probes and wraiths, if you don't already have them.
The main reason I don't like Living Wish is because I'm against LED. The main reasons I'm so against LED is because it's worthless if you have the spy and not the informer, which is half of your win conditions, needs both living wish and LED in hand to be really useful since Living Wish alone is too costly without LED, doesn't allow for pact in hand or anything similar for that matter, generates 3 mana to pay a cost of 1 for informer, etc. It just seems to have too many drawbacks that Worldly Tutor doesn't seem to have. Additionally, Living Wish alone takes two mana to fetch the Spy/Informer and this deck has a near impossible time paying two mana just to fetch the Spy/Informer and still generate enough to cast them.
"You know a set is bad when people would rather discuss dildos than the spoiled cards."
~Barook
so in this version do you still run pacts or chancellor of the tangle?
slowly trying to perfect my version
and i assume if you get a piece or two of the combo in hand, you just cabal therapy yourself? because in that situation 1 bridge from below in the deck would be useful and if you don't get in grave, maybe we can put it on the mox
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