Welcome to the 12-Post Thread. For the general introduction, I'd like to explain why someone would want to play a 12-Post deck. The primary player that 12-Post will attract is players that like to run decks with the mana curve of a vertical line. The abundance of mana provided allows for easy access of expensive win conditions, namely the Eldrazi from Zendikar Block, although I'm thinking other major wins down the line will crop up eventually.
But that's the how. The why of the deck is much more important. The deck beats control flat. Most decks that don't win within the first three turns of the game have to deal with the fact that's when 12-Post kicks into high gear. Starting turn 4, 12-Post starts making explosive play after explosive play by either dropping Primeval Titan, who can win the game on its own, but more importantly by consistently powering out Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.
Before moving to the breakdown of the deck, there is one thing I'd like to address: one of the oddest things about 12-Post is that it's difficult to classify between combo, control, and aggro. 12-Post has a strong control element because 12-Post players need to be able to control what cards they get and when they get them, and being able to control opponents' helps keep the game in their favor. However, the control element leads into the combo element because 12-Post has access to the cruelest combo in Magic: Karakas + an Eldrazi (especiallyEmrakul, the Aeons Torn). And that is a combo that 12-Post players often actively seek because it ends the game right there. However, 12-Post has a strong aggro element because the deck can just beat down with Eldrazi and Primeval Titan via living long enough (by "long enough", I generally mean turn 4) or cheating them in with Show and Tell. So while 12-Post probably plays off the control element the most, in reality I'd say it's probably all three (because it has the mana to do whatever it pleases).
The mana:
The starting point of 12-Post is the Locus Lands (the Cloudpost sub-type):
*Thanks to insanely for helping to provide content*
Cloudpost breaks on of the most basic mechanics in Magic: one mana from one land. And that's the central idea that we intend to break to make Eldrazi and other early turn plays. If unchecked, the mana from Cloudpost (especially in conjunction with Candelabra of Tawnos) can bring Eldrazi and Primeval Titan into play as soon as turn 3-4. Coming into play tapped does make this card require knowledge to know how to play it around your opponent, especially with Wasteland running in the format.
Glimmerpost is what keeps a Post player alive long enough to win. With a variety of decks aiming to win by turn three conflicting with our desire to get off the ground on turn 3, life gain (without losing card advantage) is an essential aspect of the deck. And Glimmerpost can net you a lot of life. Aggro and burn have hard time reaching lethal when Glimmerpost has netted 10-20 life off of their triggers, which will happen on a regular basis. Also, being a Locus that comes into play untapped helps when it comes to solving some of the math errors that come into play tapped can cause with Cloudpost and Vesuva.
Vesuva primary purpose is to serve as Locus count nine through twelve. This allows us to fill our land count with more Cloudposts and/or Glimmerposts (depending on what the situation calls for) than are actually legally allowed in the deck. But that's not the only function of Vesuva. It can also copy Bujoka Bog for multiple graveyard hosings in a single game, copy opposing legendary lands to get rid of them, or copy a Glacial Chasm that's raked in a high cumulative upkeep count to reset Glacial Chasm while searching for more outs.
12-Post, or at least the current incarnations of it that are popular, needs colored mana to properly function. Specifically UG. G, as the mana fixing color, pulls its weight by grabbing lands, and U provides card advantage, manipulation, and control.
Quick explanation on things not Tropical Island or Misty Rainforest: basic lands help the deck because Wasteland (oh the things I'll have to say about Wasteland down the line) is popular in Legacy. As for variant fetchlands not named Misty Rainforest, first, Pithing Needle is on the rise in popularity as a main deck card... and least where I live, and that might be my fault for leading the trend, and second multiple fetches with different names allows the deck to fill out more colored mana slots without actually running mana producing lands in those slots and instead use them for deck thinning and shuffling away bad draws.
As a side, I'd like to apologize that the links for Misty Rainforest, Island, and Forest don't work because range numbers interfere with the coding recognition. And the other fetchlands UG 12-Post can play are:
Utility lands are the other important aspect of 12-Post because 12-Post can toolbox their lands thanks to Primeval Titan and Crop Rotation.
I'm going to work backwards on explaining these lands because Thespian's Stage (as of 2/3/2013) is a newly released Gatecrash card that may significantly alter 12-Post. While space is so tight in the deck that I don't think that it can make the deck push all the way to 16-Post, it is still important enough to note. So far, I think that UG 12-Post players have found room for two to three, but I do see potential for 16-Post (my abbreviation for Colorless or MUD 16-Post) to take full advantage of this card in the future.
Karakas, as I mentioned earlier is primarily run to pull off the cruelest combo in Legacy of infinite turns via bouncing Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. If you don't think that's the cruelest combo in Legacy, please educate me on what could be crueler (note: not broken combo and not easier to pull off) than that. To continue on with Karakas, combo potential is not the only reason to run this land. Karakas also provides a means for the Eldrazi to dodge Swords to Plowshares and Oblivion Ring. In addition, Eldrazi are not the only legendary creatures viable in Legacy, so Karakas can also provide openings by swatting away opposing problematic creatures like Vendilion Clique (be careful with that one), Griselbrand, or... those other legendary creatures that come up every now and again.
Glacial Chasm is an interesting card because I hate it with a fierce passion but still believe it to be essential to the deck because it is. I consider Glacial Chasm to be a necessary evil within 12-Post because it covers one of 12-Posts weaknesses: aggro players that try to win by turn 3. It generally comes out when 12-Post gets in the 8-10 life remaining stage until 12-Post can restabilize... usually with Glimmerpost or hardcasting an Eldrazi card. While Glacial Chasm is highly restrictive and painful to play and keep alive, 12-Post can pull it off because it plays enough lands to feed the enter the battlefield cost and gains enough life through Glimmerpost to keep it around longer than anyone would want.
The Eye of Ugin is the centerpiece of 12-Post because it fetches Eldrazi creatures to win the game. Without it, it can take significantly longer to find a win condition within the deck considering there are generally only seven creatures altogether within the deck with no other way to deal damage. Generally, if a 12-Post player has the 7 to tap the Eye of Ugin, the Eye of Ugin should be finding its way to field because it is one of the lynch pins to bringing about an early late game.
Bojuka Bog fills one of 12-Post's requirement of being a Legacy viable deck: hating Dredge (and reanimator and other graveyard decks, but let's face it, it's for Dredge). And in 12-Post specifically, graveyard decks have a reason to hate 12-Post more than any other grave-hate strategy in all of Legacy, and that's not an exaggeration. Thanks to Crop Rotation, a player can put a Bujoka Bog into play, at instant speed, at any point, during any turn (given the player left themselves a G). That's a big deal because opponents' don't know whether or not Crop Rotation is in the 12-Post player's hand, so they have a much more difficult time playing around it because they can't see it. What makes this trick of surprise grave hate even more devastating for opponents is that 12-Post players don't main four Vesuva solely to copy Locus lands.
The Creatures:
So now that I have briefly explained the mana base of 12-Post... or to be analogous, the bones, I'd like to talk about the muscle of the deck: the creatures. 12-Post has a low creature count, but those creatures are fearsome and will always impact the game if they resolve (even the occasionally played Trinket Mage), and the Eldrazi don't even have to resolve to impact the game.
Trinket Mage (tagged correctly here) is actually an on again-off again card in 12-Post. However, there is a long list of cards that Trinket Mage can retrieve that are are essential to 12-Post. The most important is Sensei's Divining Top, but Trinket Mage also finds Expedition Map, Pithing Needle, and Candelabra (who's importance will vary from specific situation to situation). The reason that Trinket Mage fell out of favor, in my opinion, is because the two most essential cards that Trinket Mage fetched, Candelabra of Tawnos and Expedition Map, can be circumvented altogether by Primeval Titan. So while those cards stayed because they are that important, the need to search them fell and Titan fell into Trinket Mage's slots. So while the majority of decks will not have the room for Trinket Mage, I could see it filling the role of Primeval Titan (who's not that expensive at the moment) or a niche role of fetching Pithing Needle... maybe try him in a sideboard?
Primeval Titan is one of the strangest creatures... in any deck to be honest... because a card like Primeval Titan would normally be the final win condition. It isn't in 12-Post. Primeval Titan, although as 6/6 trample capable of winning games by itself, is the set-up for the real late game threat of the Eldrazi. This is a huge advantage to 12-Post players because Primeval Titan and the Eldrazi Titans can be played in such a way that they are mutually exclusive strategies (kind of) instead of Titan into Eldrazi, primarily thanks to Show and Tell.
But for the more important aspect of actually landing a Primeval Titan, here's the general order to fetch lands for Primeval Titan:
The order that these come down is of course situation specific, but the Eye of Ugin should always be first unless you see a Wasteland and can't take advantage of the search before the Eye dies (you can get it back when an Eldrazi dies). The only thing that might be a truly difficult question is whether to get a Locus land or to get a Vesuva and copy a Locus land. But either way, between Show and Tell and Locus mana, there should be no problem casting or cheating him in. Always run 4 Primeval Titan.
Before I get into the specific legendary Eldrazi, I'd like to say something about them as a collective. Whatever a 12-Post may need, one of them will be able to solve that need. And if you need one of them more than once, use Karakas. And lastly, because they have effects that say, "When ~ is cast..." you get the effect even if the Eldrazi doesn't resolve, although opponents can still Stifle those. Because of that, there should rarely be a situation where one would wish they ran multiples of any particular one. So without further ado:
Kozilek, the Butcher of Truth is my personal favorite Eldrazi. Even more so than Emrakul because Kozilek makes sure the 12-Post player has *stuff*. Normally in other decks that play Eldrazi, this would be an issue because that means that 12-Post has to wait a turn to cast the drawn *stuff*. In 12-Post, when the player normally casts Kozilek, he/she can cast the *stuff* that same turn because there can be that much mana left over. Also, being a 12/12 that can be cast for as low as 8 with Annihilator 4 doesn't hurt either.
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre fixes problems. Its cast trigger in particular is important because it was ruled that it escapes Humility, which is important. Killing any permanent though can solve any number of problems that could be thrown at 12-Post. And the indestructible means that it's harder to kill with Wrath effects. The drawback to that though is that there're a lot more than Wrath effects in Legacy such as Swords to Plowshares, Terminus, and Diabolic Edict. But between destroying the most problematic permanent and Annihilator 4, Ulamog can easily sweep up a game.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is the most fearsome single card that any deck can put into play at this point and time... well, Turn 1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur might be... but Emrakul is harder to kill, ergo, I still call her the scariest creature in the game. Having the largest base stats, a cast trigger of Time Walk (which 98% of the time might as well mean super haste), being uncounterable, protection from most of the things that would kill even Ulamog, and Annihilator 6 generally adds up to swiftly killing the opponent on the spot. Oh... and she flies because... why not?
Ramp!:
All the creatures in 12-Post are made possible by the mana produced by the Locus lands. The Locus lands though have some help of their own.
Candelabra of TawnosCandelabra of Tawnos is one of the saddest cards since someone put t in its effect (it's important to know that because it's not on the printed card).* Regardless, it is still the strongest ramp card in the deck. For example, with just two Cloudposts, Candelabra could make a Wurmcoil Engine. In UG 12-Post though, it makes the GG for Primeval Titan and untapping a field of Cloudposts and/or a used Eye of Ugin/Karakas can mean casting multiple Eldrazi (even the same one) in the same turn. A devastating move that should seal the game. In terms of numbers, running 1 is not optimal but doable, 2 works a lot easier, and 3 apparently the number to maximize their abuse factor (or so I read on MTGSource). The biggest drawback to this card though is it's on the reserve list and cost a lot.
*This punchline will be lost on anyone that knows what a Mono Artifact is.
Crop Rotation is one of those rare green cards that has a dual function that the creators couldn't have intended when it was created (then again... it's from Urza's Saga, which I hear the creators had no clue what any of what they printed in there would end up doing). The cute standard trick to Crop Rotation is to sack a land for a Cloudpost or Vesuva copying a Cloudpost for more mana. Fortunately, as an instant, 12-Post can do a lot more than just that. I already mentioned the interaction with Bojuka Bog, but it also is one of the few outs to Wasteland that 12-Post players can use. The trick is when they sacrifice Wasteland for the cost and declare their target, the 12-Post player responds by sacrificing the target for the cost of Crop Rotation and then replacing it with a fresh, not to be destroyed land. One thing to watch out for though is that sacrificing the land to Crop Rotation is a cost, so the land is gone regardless of what happens to Crop Rotation.
Expedition Map is an early game search for the land the 12-Post player will need. While significantly weaker than Primeval Titan, it has the significant advantage of costing 1 to cast and 2 to activate (at any point). Using only colorless mana and being a Locus, color, and utility mana fixing card is not something to just pass by.
Show and Tell is the primary way that to land anything before it should hit the board (followed by Candelabra and then just actually curving into it). For example, earlier I mentioned that Primeval Titan and the Eldrazi could be played as mutually exclusive strategies that throw opponents off and Show and Tell makes that possible. Show and Tell itself makes opponents uneasy because regardless of what 12-Post players drop in, they'll be in a much better position unless their opponent drops in Hive Mind, Griselbrand, Terastodon... or their Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Generally, this is how I'd prioritize the top 10 things Show and Tell should drop into play:
The reason that I put Primeval Titan ahead of the Eldrazi is because if the Eldrazi and put in via Show and Tell, they miss their cast triggers. However, this list is of course dependent on what is in the hand when this all goes down and who the opponent is. The only specific one I'll address because I set myself up for it though is Primeval Titan vs. Eldrazi Titan. Which one should go in first? In my current experience, go for Primeval Titan because he'll get the land you need to hardcast said competing Eldrazi next turn. The exception is when getting the Annihilator online is more important than anything the deck could possibly do otherwise. This namely comes up when I'm going against Storm.
12-Post's Control Package:
Lastly, the mainboard has to maintain control. Unlike most control decks in Legacy, the control the 12-Post player mostly keeps is over their own resources, not their opponents' (with one glaring exception called Wasteland). We just generally don't care what the opponent does because it can be undone with Glimmerpost or held off with Glacial Chasm (no spiteful comment here... that's where Glacial Chasm shines).
All is Dust is an expensive sweeper, but it hits almost everything that might be a problem to us... unless the problem is artifacts. But right now most mainstream Legacy decks rely on colored permanents to win. And with the exception of Primeval Titan, we don't. What this means is that we can clear the board of a bad situation in most cases without losing any board presence and then advance our own even further.
I'm going to talk about Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top together because they serve the same basic function: fix bad hands. Everyone should know this is why these cards are run, but their really important in 12-Post because at any given point, over half a player's hand can be dead. Point is, 12-Post gets bad hands sometimes like everyone else, these make them either more tolerable or altogether go away with one of the many shuffle effects.
Oblivion Stone is an answer to opponents that rely on non-land permanents to win. After all, unless the deck is... well... combo, at some point an opponent has to commit something to the board to win. And regardless of what that something is, unless it's a land, Oblivion Stone solves it. And unlike All is Dust, players get to tell MUD to shove it as well. General consensus at the moment is to main 2-3 and side the rest. Also, word of warning. 12-Post commits to the board as well, especially Candelabra, so be careful when laying one of these to blow. Granted losing a Candelabra is better than losing the game, but there are possibilities to avoid those tight spots.
Pithing Needle. Two words sum up its function in the mainboard: call Wasteland. There's a long list of cards that Pithing Needle stops including planeswalkers, Griselbrand, Sword of Feast and Famine, and anything with ":" in its effect. But as long as those cards are not on the field, call Wasteland. If you already called Wasteland with a Pithing Needle, do it again because Pithing Needles get destroyed all the time (although hold back that second one if Maelstrom Pulse is coming). And if you are sure enough that you can handle a problem activated ability, call Wasteland. So to recap, unless Pithing Needle has to answer a more immediate problem, CALL WASTELAND.
Repeal is one of the most unique control cards that is (I think but am not certain) exclusive to 12-Post because it's a swiss army knife for what we want to do. First, Repeal cantrips. That's always a plus. Second, it protects the 12-Posts (non-land) *stuff*. 12-Post produces enough mana to bounce back Emrakul (if she didn't have protection from colored Spells), so saving something important is a non-issue. Third, it makes annoying things the opponent plays go away. Funniest thing to Repeal yet: a reanimated Griselbrand that my opponent was hoping to use the life link to stay alive. And fourth, combo potential. This falls in Repealing a Primeval Titan that's already swung for pseudo-vigilance and more land, but the much easier play is to bounce Candelabra of Tawnos after tapping it once to make an abundance of mana to make an even more abundance of mana.
The Sideboard:
The sideboard is the most essential tool to 12-Post because Legacy is a diverse meta that's entirely to widespread to deal with just the 60 cards alone. These are the key cards and what they are needed for:
Flusterstorm is one of the best counterspells in Legacy. The main reason it is played is because it helps to solve storm, pesky control matches, and decks that rely heavily on non-creature spells to pull victory through (that's namely Reanimator off the top of my head). And 12-Post deck generally doesn't run enough blue cards for Force of Will, and we really don't want to pitch what we do have for it. I'm sure Negate, Mana Leak, Remand, or Rune Snag would be a good budget fit as well (if Storm wasn't be a concern), but I bring it up because one thing to remember is the deck doesn't create UU very often in the early game, so stick to costs with a single U if siding them is important.
Venser, Shaper Savant is another control card with the bonus of being a creature. Siding two is important because he basically serves as Repeal five and six, except Venser can hit spells as well, so he can break games with Mindbreak Trap type results. The most popular thing to do with him though at the moment is to use him to help reign in the Show and Tell match-up. As a creature, he can bounce whatever an opponent may try to cheat into play, hopefully to keep it out of play.
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale helps solve aggro (Goblins, Jund, and Esper Stoneblade with Lingering Souls) and taxes control decks that run out early game threats (namely RUG and BUG Delver). Generally not mained because there can only be so many useful lands that don't produce mana, and Glacial Chasm shows more immediate results in a tight spot.
If the player needed to blow their opponent's *things* up game one, having a full set of Oblivion Stone makes the task much easier come game two to blow their opponent's *things* up again and again.
Generally, a full play set of Pithing Needle isn't needed main board. Siding the last one is optional. I guess if someone feels they really need to up the odds of getting them, then go for it. Personally, I'd say use the space for Trinket Mage at that point.
All is Dust is not always a main deck card. If the local meta has a lot of artifact decks, then it's better to drop it. If it has plenty of artifact decks but still a lot of decks that require colored permanents, then try All is Dust for the side board instead. Or do a 1-1 split.
Elephant Grass is technically a worse version of Propaganda, which this deck could easily side... except Elephant Grass (costing G) comes down as soon as turn 1, and Propaganda (costs 2U) can only come down as soon as turn 3... and if 12-Post taps out turn 3 only to have their sole defense destroyed, that'd usually spells game. Side Elephant Grass in against aggro decks and low cost, low-curve decks because they generally don't have the mana to attack and cast their defenses.
Spellskite is a 0/4 for 2, which provides a lot of defense on its own, but for (P/U), it also draws a lot of attention to itself that opponents' don't want it to. I'm not entirely sure what it's optimal against, but I know it can draw away Swords to Plowshares, Ancient Grudge, Lightning Bolt, and a lot of other things as well.
Chalice of the Void is to hate on Storm as well as low curve decks. Set it to 0, 1, or 2, and most storm decks hit a hard place (still want to set a Chalice to 5 one day against ANT to see if it's possible and what happens next), and most decks that curve out at 3 will have to answer it soon or lose access to a good chunk of their deck.
Phyrexian Revoker has a neat trick that gives it an edge against Pithing Needle in certain matches: Phyrexian Revoker can hit mana abilities, which is why the player can't name lands. This makes it useful against MUD (call Metalworker) and ANT (call Lion's Eye Diamond most of the time).
Additional Resources:
I am an amateur when it comes to playing 12-Post (<-That's a pretty important tell as well since the deck is also known as "Turbo Eldrazi"). And while I'm working towards creating a worthy Locus Lands Primer, there are people who have been working for a long time on the deck.
Despite what onlookers might think, this is not a pick-up-and-play deck...
Underneath the janky-looking exterior lies a deck with so many intricacies, that weeks of playtesting still leaves its pilot open to misplays that can cost the game.
In fact, this is one of the few decks I've encountered that can lose a whole game based on the opening hand keep that you make....
With that, let me add a few tidbits of information with regards to match-ups, based on experience with the deck:
Miracles - Heavily Favorable:
There is virtually nothing that Miracles can do to your game-plan. Ramp up naturally, keep casting spells without worry that they get countered (what few players realize is that without the CB/Top combo, Miracles can't counter every single spell). Eventually, you will resolve a business spell, or get enough lands to hard-cast Emrakul, which spells game over for them.
Sideboarding entails removing useless or liability cards (typically a few copies of Crop Rotation and/or Repeal), and replacing them with cards that can help your inevitability.
Most players would consider this match-up a virtual bye.
Stoneblade Variants - Very Favorable
Though their clock is faster than Miracles, their late-game is still inferior to yours. SFM + Batterskull can be dangerous if you're not careful, but Primeval Titan stops it in its tracks. Repeal is extremely strong against Germ Tokens, and of course you can always use Chasm as a last resort.
Sideboarding is similar to Miracles, though I would leave in Repeals and take out a few copies of Crop Rotation, due to the mere fact that getting one countered screws with your tempo big-time.
RUG Delver - Slightly Favorable to even
RUG is very dangerous if you're not prepared. They can disrupt you all day, and apply a fast clock in the process. Resolving a Needle completely shuts down Wasteland, since they can't reliably remove it from play. Play around Daze and Stifle (they will often stifle Primeval Titan, and stifle your fetches and Exped Maps too). Repealing flipped Delvers for 1 mana gives you a lot of breathing room. Resolving a Show and Tell into any big creature (preferrably Titan) would usually be game-over for them. Chasm and Glimmerpost is your friend, and Bojuka Bog shrinks Mongeese into reasonable sizes.
Sideboarding, adding Tabernacle and Elephant Grass (if you pack them) gives them fits as they run with a low land-count.
One thing to note is that they can sometimes have Nuts openings that you just can't fight against. I've experienced these first-hand, and they don't feel good, but luckily, they seldom happen.
Goblins - Favorable
Goblins apply a whole lot of disruption via Wastelands and Rishadan Ports. Don't be cute by naming Rishadan Port with Pithing Needle. It should name Wasteland 95% of the time. Rishadan Ports slow you down, but they can't really stop you, especially with a Candelabra in play. Stem the bleeding from a fast hand with Glacial Chasm and Glimmerposts. Repeal Vials with counters in them when you can. Unlike the RUG matchup, their disruption does not come with counterspells, so fortunately, they can do nothing about Crop Rotation tricks.
Sideboard Tabernacle and Elephant Grass and a Favorable match-up becomes even more favorable.
Merfolk - Slightly Favorable
Merfolk is a harder matchup than Goblins because of the lords, who pump everyone and give them Islandwalk, since Turbo Eldrazi plays at least 5 islands. Again, Pithing Needle on Wasteland whenever you can, but if you resolve one, you can name Mutavault or Aether Vial on the second (since they can't remove resolved Needles in play most of the time). Play around Daze. Their creatures can get out of hand very quickly, so Chasm when you get below 13 life for some breathing room, until you can resolve a Primeval Titan, which will be game-breaking for them.
Sideboard, again, Tabernacle and Elephant Grass is your best friend.
Burn - Slightly Favorable to Even:
Yes, Burn is still a deck, and in the hands of a competent pilot can be very dangerous to Turbo Eldrazi. Price of Progress is the main offender, with Fireblast a close second. What sucks about this match-up is that their best weapons against you are instant-speed, which means you have to be very, very careful on how your lands play out. When you resolve Primeval Titan, always fetch for 1 Glimmerpost and 1 Glacial Chasm first (if the latter isn't already in play), and succeeding Primeval Titan triggers keep fetching Glimmerposts and Vesuvas (copying Glimmerpost).
Sideboard in Flusterstorms and Chalices for game 2 and 3. Chalice for 2 as soon as you can to turn off PoP, and it will become much easier to maneuver.
Three more I'd like to add that are not on the list yet:
BUG Delver - Game 1: even match; post board: favorable.
BUG applies the same pressure as RUG, but rather than burn, they can hit hard with hand disruption. The good news is that disruption's biggest enemy (Brainstorm) can help keep your hand safe, but side board wise, Tabernacle and Elephant Grass can mitigate problems (watch out for Abrupt Decay), but also keep in mind that Cursed Totem can keep Deathrite Shaman at bay, and I've used Chalice of the Void to keep my opponent off balance.
MUD - Game 1: unfavorable; post board: even match.
Ad Nauseum Tendrils - Game 1: Unfavorable; Post board: slightly favorable
There's not much we can do about ANT game 1. Best case is game one you call the right fetchland with Pithing Needle and kill their hand... but that's nothing to rely on. Things that will help though: Chalice of the Void, Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap, Phyrexian Revoker (call Lion's Eye Diamond), and Venser, Shaper Savant. The focus post board, as with all decks that go against ANT, moves from pushing our threats out to shutting them down.
Elves can kill you out of nowhere. What's worse is that Pithing Needle does nothing against them except stop their dorks from untapping. Fortunately, unlike other Combo decks, you actually have a main-deck tool against them in the form of Glacial Chasm. Still, it doesn't do a thing against Deathrite Shaman, who can grind you out while you're losing life from Glacial Chasm. If you can ramp up behind Glacial Chasm into an All is Dust or Oblivion Stone, then you have a chance, but if they do it early enough, repetitive DRS activations will hurt badly.
Sideboarding against them involves playing a Cursed Totem or two to turn his dorks into Vanilla 1/1's and 2/2's, but be careful as they have ways of destroying it. Elephant Grass + Tabernacle also would cripple them a lot, particularly since they play little lands.
Mockingbird's Note: If Mindbreak Trap is in the sideboard, bring it in against Elves as well.
Maverick - Favorable to Slightly Favorable (depends on build)
Maverick can be a beating due to the KotR/Wasteland combo, and also depending on the amount of hate-bears they pack. Again, their lack of counters makes Crop Rotation a great card against them. Pithing Needle into Wasteland all day. Be wary of Aven Mindcensors in response to fetches, Maps and Crop Rotations though. Try not to Show and Tell the Eldrazi into play, as they can get Karakas virtually anytime they want to. GW builds are usually harder matchups than the Punishing Fire variant, but the Punishing list packs Life from the Loam maindeck, so remedy that with a well-timed Bojuka Bog.
Post-board, Cursed Totem will totally ruin their day, though KotR can still become a huge threat. Elephant Grass + Tabernacle is also good. Tight plays will continue to keep this matchup in your favor.
So after doing a quick search of the Legacy Forums, I found that the last time that 12-Post had its own thread was in March. So rather than bump that, I'm creating a new one after 12-Post made 2nd in the StarCity Games Open Series in Providence.
Also, as a quick explanation of the deck for those who don't know, 12-Post is a ramp deck designed to accumulate Cloudposts onto the battlefield as fast as possible to ramp into an early game massive threat and/or victory. The Cloudpost is then supported by Glimmerpost, which adds to the Locus (the Posts subtype) count and keeps you alive, and Vesuva, for copying either Cloudpost or Glimmerpost, although if the occasion calls for it, it can copy a utility or colored land as well.
Deck plays as a toolbox when it is not fishing for Locus lands.
This deck is nuts. I have a close friend that plays it and he wins so many tournaments. I actually know the guy who placed 2et; he plays at my local meta. Some of the duel land detriments I play at in RI ends up have 3/4 12 post players.
The deck has a great match up against many decks, and people tend not to know it so they don’t know how to react. When the opponent sb against 12 post, the 12 post player just wins by using different tricks that they didn’t use the first game..
I playtested this deck a bit today and found it disappointingly weak, especially against tempo decks. Will try it some more later, maybe there is something I'm missing.
I playtested the deck and an issue I ran into is a hand full of land and nothing to use it on..
I've mulled to 4 once because of this...
just something to note....
As a Tron player in Modern , mulling to 4 is dangerous, but not unmanageable. Also, as someone who's played 26 lands in ramp decks, mana clumping like that is generally caused by a bad shuffle after a game where Primeval Titan went nuts for too long.
I've been looking into potential draw power, and one card I've actually thought about helping the deck out is Stroke of Genius because it's the only draw x card I could find that requires only one U, so it's relatively easy on a primarily colorless mana base. Also with Candelabra of Tawnos, it can make for another win condition by targeting your opponent or digging out Emrakul (and then get around decking yourself out by discarding Kozilek with the rest of your over limit hand at end of turn).
As a Tron player in Modern , mulling to 4 is dangerous, but not unmanageable. Also, as someone who's played 26 lands in ramp decks, mana clumping like that is generally caused by a bad shuffle after a game where Primeval Titan went nuts for too long.
I've been looking into potential draw power, and one card I've actually thought about helping the deck out is Stroke of Genius because it's the only draw x card I could find that requires only one U, so it's relatively easy on a primarily colorless mana base. Also with Candelabra of Tawnos, it makes for another win condition by targeting your opponent or digging out Emrakul (and then get around decking yourself out by discarding Kozilek with the rest of your over limit hand at end of turn).
*Sigh* I figured you'd say that which is why I gave myself a little leeway with the word "generally."
But I still stand by my statement that 25 Lands shouldn't normally be too much of a problem with flooding. About what is your (guessed) ratio of early mana flooding to getting a decent hand?
*Sigh* I figured you'd say that which is why I gave myself a little leeway with the word "generally."
But I still stand by my statement that 25 Lands shouldn't normally be too much of a problem with flooding. About what is your (guessed) ratio of early mana flooding to getting a decent hand?
I was ending up with 9 good hands: 2 Bad hands: 1 Terribad..
Good means that I could do my thing with protection or could hide my pieces to discard and such
Bad means im missing either the lands (or search), A way to get a fatty out or I was missing Brainstorm or top...
I just didnt feel comfortable with certain hands that ended up being good, so grain of salt...
If you really want something similar in the deck then, Magus of the Candelabra will work just fine.
I think not, as I was using repeal to bounce the candelabra to be able to get more mana.
It may be a fine substitute, but you sometimes will notice where you wish you had a candelabra...
It was an interesting read. Taught me a lot about the deck I didn't know. I think my favorite part of the report was when a Show and Tell was countered, so he just hardcast the Primeval Titan instead. That made me chuckle.
One thing that it did make me wonder is if Venser, the Sojourner could ever be a good fit for the deck because the deck has so many more things to blink than Primeval Titan. The majority of the mana base for example: Bojuka Bog for continual grave hate, Glimmerpost for obscene live totals, Glacial Chasm to reset cumulative upkeep, Vesuva, or even a tapped Island to hold up mana for Brainstorm sounds like a good idea (you know... if it didn't cost 3UW to get it, especially the W).
EDIT: Forgot the Sacrifice a land for Glacial Chasm... so it might not be as good of a Sojourner interaction as I originally thought.
Also as a brief update, I've come up with a list of cards that I'm going to be trying soon, and others can see how they work as well:
Stroke of Genius - Instant speed mass draw power for x2U, I think it's worth trying considering Jeremiah cast Kozilek,Butcher of Truth twice in the same turn with Karakas, which is at least 16-20. Not that it should replace Kozilek, but if you have that kind of mana... draw x sounds like a place to start (you know, until somebody comes along with RG Cloudpost with Banefire).
Karn Liberated - This is the Modern Tron player in me that knows the value of Karn coming down turn 3. I wonder if Cloudpost has the same kind of value.
Amulet of Vigor - With so many come into play tapped lands and Primeval Titan, I'm curious if a singleton would make a difference in how the deck launches.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor- It's Jace, and the deck runs blue. I think there's is a law somewhere that says every blue player has check who can consistently hit the mana to try has to at some point.
an interesting thing is that you can venser an eldrazi, and you'll stilll get the Tidings/vindicate/time walk
If you are talking about Venser, the Sojourner, then that unfortunately is not how the Eldrazi work. All the Eldrazi say, "When you cast ~, Tidings/Vindicate/Time Walk," which means that when you exile and return an Eldrazi to the battlefield for Sojourner's plus, all you've done is give it pseudo-vigilance (which having a blocker as big as them is not that bad). The upside though is that your opponent uses Force of Will on Kozilek or Ulamog (or Mindbreak Trap on Emrakul), you still get the cast trigger unless Stifled.
If you're talking about Venser, Shaper Savant, then personally I find Karakas to be a cheaper alternative to bounce the Eldrazi in question.
I don't mean to necro the thread here, but I am interested in this deck. I have most of the pieces, minus a tropical island and a candelabra, and the smaller stuff like crop rotation/ prime titan + Eldrazi. Luckily, Lands runs three trops, tabernacle and karakas.
I do think Karn would be fun to play, but is there space for him?
If you are talking about Venser, the Sojourner, then that unfortunately is not how the Eldrazi work. All the Eldrazi say, "When you cast ~, Tidings/Vindicate/Time Walk," which means that when you exile and return an Eldrazi to the battlefield for Sojourner's plus, all you've done is give it pseudo-vigilance (which having a blocker as big as them is not that bad). The upside though is that your opponent uses Force of Will on Kozilek or Ulamog (or Mindbreak Trap on Emrakul), you still get the cast trigger unless Stifled.
If you're talking about Venser, Shaper Savant, then personally I find Karakas to be a cheaper alternative to bounce the Eldrazi in question.
I was referencing the Shaper Savannt version, and was pointing it out because some people may not realize that.... I agree karakas may be better, but sometimes Savant may help more...
I do think Karn would be fun to play, but is there space for him?
The short answer is that I'm unsure.
I've started playing the deck in real life myself, and the first thing I learned is that it plays almost nothing like the closest Modern counterpart, UrzaTron, despite the goal of both being to ramp into massive colorless threats. The two leading differences being that first within the decks themselves, you have to play around the fact that eight of the twelve Locus (Cloudpost and Vesuva) come into play tapped, and second, we just have more... things... to deal with coming from our opponents in Legacy than in Modern.
To tie this all back to Karn Liberated, what makes Karn effective in Modern is that he tends to come down turn 3 using the assembled UrzaTron, which swings the tempo of the game. To get that same result in 12-Post, the lands would have to be T1 Cloudpost, T2 Cloudpost/Vesuva, T3 Glimmerpost. Often that is not ideal because you want to get a Tropical Island in the early game so that you can Brainstorm, Show and Tell, or Crop Rotation. Karn is still a strong card though, so I wouldn't say don't try it. My word of caution is don't expect Karn to work like he does in Modern if you play Tron in Modern.
How often do you find yourself with a ton of mana and nothing to do with it?
If you don't get Eye of Ugin as soon as Cloudpost enters Kozilek range without an Eldrazi in hand... you'd be surprised how much mana you wind up not using in a single turn.
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~~~~~
So i've been toying around with turning my metalworker/forgemaster deck into a 12 post stompy that could board into a stax variant please let me know what you all think if it's just a pipe dream or doable with slight changes.
So i've been toying around with turning my metalworker/forgemaster deck into a 12 post stompy that could board into a stax variant please let me know what you all think if it's just a pipe dream or doable with slight changes.
Cloudpost doesn't seem that great with grim monoliths to be honest. The fact they come into play tapped can mean no first turn bonkers (Chalice or the like.) I think posts need a deck with crop rotation and some land fetch (Exp. Map) where MUD already rocks with Mox Diamond and sol lands.
So i've been toying around with turning my metalworker/forgemaster deck into a 12 post stompy that could board into a stax variant please let me know what you all think if it's just a pipe dream or doable with slight changes.
Not a fan of putting in Posts in what is essentially a MUD deck.
The thing with the current post list is that it has plenty of ways of actually assembling Posts in order to generate insane amounts of mana. Jeremiah's list uses Exped Maps, Crop Rots, SDT's, Brainstorms, Primeval Titan and even Repeals to ensure you get whatever lands you need.
Putting the 12post package in a deck with no means of fetching your posts seems a bit too inconsistent for me.
Not a big fan of MUD-Post either because MUD does not like CIPT lands. The best it would like teching Glimmerpost if the life gain was really that necessary beyond Wurmcoil Engine.
Edit: apparently I'm wrong because MUD made T32 (or 16) teching the 12-Post mana base.
By the way, I've still been playing a ripped copy of the Providence deck mainly because irl time restraints and still feeling out the deck. So what other deck lists are there?
I played this deck locally at a semi-major event with 70~ players. I went with a list identical to the one in the primer except with a different SB:
4 x Flusterstorm
3 x Mindbreak Trap
2 x Elephant Grass
2 x Venser Shaper Savant
1 x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 x Chalice of the Void
My buddies and I decided on the 3 x Chalice of the Void instead of 2 x Beast Within and 1 x Spellskite because we expected a lot of Storm Combo in our meta.
Went 5-1-1 after 7 Rounds, and I ended up 7th, but unfortunately I lost at the quarterfinals due to a horrible play error on my part.
Here's a short recap of my matchups that day. I don't have notes on any of my matches so, this will be short and taken from memory:
Round 1: vs. Nic Fit 2-0
Game 1 I was able to power out Ulamog pretty early, but by then the opponent played a Sigarda, Host of Herons. I answered by playing Emrakul, but I was at a semi-dangerous life level at that point (since he had Sigarda and Thrun in play on his side), so i decided to keep both boys on the defense. He responded by sacrificing an Academy Rector to fetch Faith's Fetters on Emrakul, which gave Sigarda free reign to attack. i was able to stall for time by dropping Glimmerposts, until I found Karakas to bounce Emrakul, and play him again for infinite turns.
Game 2 My opponent sided in some Helm of Obediences hoping to flip an eldrazi. He also played Humility in the hopes it would stop the boys from wreaking havoc. Fortunately, the trigger on the eldrazi is on cast, not an EtB effect (we had to confirm with the judge), so a hard-casted Kozilek enabled me to draw into Ulamog, and destroy the pesky enchantment. A last-ditch effort moat tried to stop the damage, but I had Karakas available to bounce Ulamog and play him for the win
Round 2: vs. UW Miracles 2-1
Game 1 I had the sheer unluck of not drawing any Cloudposts. All my fetch spells were countered, and JTMS' ultimate finished me off.
Game 2 and 3 went smoothly, with me able to power out the boys even through counterspells and Vendillion Cliques.
Round 3: vs. LED Dredge 2-0
Game 1 I cast Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog just when he had a ton of cards in the GY and no threats on board. It was over soon after as he could not recover.
Game 2 I rode on the back of Elephant Grass and got 2 Expedition Maps in play ready to fetch the Bog and Vesuva if needed. My opponent scooped when I cracked one of them end of his turn for a Bog.
Round 4: vs. ANT 0-2
Game 1 went without a hitch for the opponent.
Game 2 was the same, as I kept a hand with no answers in the hopes that Brainstorm and SDT will provide them. They didn't.
Round 5: vs. BG Rock 2-0
Game 1 A hard-casted Emrakul weakened my opponent's board, but he had enough resources left-over and played a Liliana of the Veil next turn, and used her -2 ability to force me to sac Emrakul. Phyrexian Revoker on my SDT forced me to top-deck for answers. I eventually drew into Emrakul again and sealed the deal.
Game 2 I was able to Show and Tell Ulamog into play turn 3. My opponent had no outs and scooped.
Round 6: vs. RUG Delver 1-1
Game 1 My opponent had a very strong board and applied a ton of pressure before I could stall with a Glacial Chasm. I struggled to ramp up, but with no Cloudposts going my way, I couldn't get enough mana to cast the All is Dust in my hand, and he finished me off with Lightning Bolts when I could no longer pay for Chasm during my upkeep.
Game 2 I was able to prevent my opponent from applying pressure, but at the same time he was disrupting me. 2 Primeval Titans came down on my side, and went on the assault for the kill. Unfortunately, time was called during this round, so we were unable to play the 3rd game and were forced to draw the round.
Round 7: vs. UW Miracles 2-0
Game 1 I resolved a Show and Tell for Primeval Titan. He scooped once he realized what the deck was up to as he had no removal in his hand.
Game 2 We went back and forth for a while, and a resolved Candelabra powered out Primeval Titan, which, again, he had no answer for. He scooped soon afterward.
Quarterfinals: vs. ANT 1-2
Game 1 He had a terrible hand, and I was able to play Emrakul off a Primeval Titan.
Game 2 He killed me on turn 2 on the back of a Silence. I only had 1 counter in hand, so I couldn't stop it.
Game 3 Is a long game, basically with me able to answer his first attempt. I had a Chalice for 1 and Chalice for 0, but I could not ramp up and made a crucial error of not casting Mindbreak Trap on his Ad Nauseam, which is the last card in his hand, thinking I would be fine. Hull breach on Chalice-1 allowed him to play Silence next turn and combo me out.
I won a Revised Plateau for my trouble, and a bye for the next major event. All in all, the deck performed beautifully, and I would definitely play it again next time!
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As for the 12-Post strategy, the basic strategy is to ramp out the mana of Cloudpost by assembling multiple Cloudposts, Glimmerposts, and Vesuvas. From there, use the accumulation of mana to use Eye of Ugin to grab Kozilek, Butcher of Truth, Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre, and Emrakul, the Aeons Torn to win. If that's taking too long, make up for lost time with with Primeval Titan and/or Show and Tell.
But that's the how. The why of the deck is much more important. The deck beats control flat. Most decks that don't win within the first three turns of the game have to deal with the fact that's when 12-Post kicks into high gear. Starting turn 4, 12-Post starts making explosive play after explosive play by either dropping Primeval Titan, who can win the game on its own, but more importantly by consistently powering out Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.
Before moving to the breakdown of the deck, there is one thing I'd like to address: one of the oddest things about 12-Post is that it's difficult to classify between combo, control, and aggro. 12-Post has a strong control element because 12-Post players need to be able to control what cards they get and when they get them, and being able to control opponents' helps keep the game in their favor. However, the control element leads into the combo element because 12-Post has access to the cruelest combo in Magic: Karakas + an Eldrazi (especially Emrakul, the Aeons Torn). And that is a combo that 12-Post players often actively seek because it ends the game right there. However, 12-Post has a strong aggro element because the deck can just beat down with Eldrazi and Primeval Titan via living long enough (by "long enough", I generally mean turn 4) or cheating them in with Show and Tell. So while 12-Post probably plays off the control element the most, in reality I'd say it's probably all three (because it has the mana to do whatever it pleases).
The mana:
The starting point of 12-Post is the Locus Lands (the Cloudpost sub-type):
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
*Thanks to insanely for helping to provide content*
Cloudpost breaks on of the most basic mechanics in Magic: one mana from one land. And that's the central idea that we intend to break to make Eldrazi and other early turn plays. If unchecked, the mana from Cloudpost (especially in conjunction with Candelabra of Tawnos) can bring Eldrazi and Primeval Titan into play as soon as turn 3-4. Coming into play tapped does make this card require knowledge to know how to play it around your opponent, especially with Wasteland running in the format.
Glimmerpost is what keeps a Post player alive long enough to win. With a variety of decks aiming to win by turn three conflicting with our desire to get off the ground on turn 3, life gain (without losing card advantage) is an essential aspect of the deck. And Glimmerpost can net you a lot of life. Aggro and burn have hard time reaching lethal when Glimmerpost has netted 10-20 life off of their triggers, which will happen on a regular basis. Also, being a Locus that comes into play untapped helps when it comes to solving some of the math errors that come into play tapped can cause with Cloudpost and Vesuva.
Vesuva primary purpose is to serve as Locus count nine through twelve. This allows us to fill our land count with more Cloudposts and/or Glimmerposts (depending on what the situation calls for) than are actually legally allowed in the deck. But that's not the only function of Vesuva. It can also copy Bujoka Bog for multiple graveyard hosings in a single game, copy opposing legendary lands to get rid of them, or copy a Glacial Chasm that's raked in a high cumulative upkeep count to reset Glacial Chasm while searching for more outs.
12-Post, or at least the current incarnations of it that are popular, needs colored mana to properly function. Specifically UG. G, as the mana fixing color, pulls its weight by grabbing lands, and U provides card advantage, manipulation, and control.
Quick explanation on things not Tropical Island or Misty Rainforest: basic lands help the deck because Wasteland (oh the things I'll have to say about Wasteland down the line) is popular in Legacy. As for variant fetchlands not named Misty Rainforest, first, Pithing Needle is on the rise in popularity as a main deck card... and least where I live, and that might be my fault for leading the trend, and second multiple fetches with different names allows the deck to fill out more colored mana slots without actually running mana producing lands in those slots and instead use them for deck thinning and shuffling away bad draws.
As a side, I'd like to apologize that the links for Misty Rainforest, Island, and Forest don't work because range numbers interfere with the coding recognition. And the other fetchlands UG 12-Post can play are:
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
Utility lands are the other important aspect of 12-Post because 12-Post can toolbox their lands thanks to Primeval Titan and Crop Rotation.
I'm going to work backwards on explaining these lands because Thespian's Stage (as of 2/3/2013) is a newly released Gatecrash card that may significantly alter 12-Post. While space is so tight in the deck that I don't think that it can make the deck push all the way to 16-Post, it is still important enough to note. So far, I think that UG 12-Post players have found room for two to three, but I do see potential for 16-Post (my abbreviation for Colorless or MUD 16-Post) to take full advantage of this card in the future.
Karakas, as I mentioned earlier is primarily run to pull off the cruelest combo in Legacy of infinite turns via bouncing Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. If you don't think that's the cruelest combo in Legacy, please educate me on what could be crueler (note: not broken combo and not easier to pull off) than that. To continue on with Karakas, combo potential is not the only reason to run this land. Karakas also provides a means for the Eldrazi to dodge Swords to Plowshares and Oblivion Ring. In addition, Eldrazi are not the only legendary creatures viable in Legacy, so Karakas can also provide openings by swatting away opposing problematic creatures like Vendilion Clique (be careful with that one), Griselbrand, or... those other legendary creatures that come up every now and again.
Glacial Chasm is an interesting card because I hate it with a fierce passion but still believe it to be essential to the deck because it is. I consider Glacial Chasm to be a necessary evil within 12-Post because it covers one of 12-Posts weaknesses: aggro players that try to win by turn 3. It generally comes out when 12-Post gets in the 8-10 life remaining stage until 12-Post can restabilize... usually with Glimmerpost or hardcasting an Eldrazi card. While Glacial Chasm is highly restrictive and painful to play and keep alive, 12-Post can pull it off because it plays enough lands to feed the enter the battlefield cost and gains enough life through Glimmerpost to keep it around longer than anyone would want.
The Eye of Ugin is the centerpiece of 12-Post because it fetches Eldrazi creatures to win the game. Without it, it can take significantly longer to find a win condition within the deck considering there are generally only seven creatures altogether within the deck with no other way to deal damage. Generally, if a 12-Post player has the 7 to tap the Eye of Ugin, the Eye of Ugin should be finding its way to field because it is one of the lynch pins to bringing about an early late game.
Bojuka Bog fills one of 12-Post's requirement of being a Legacy viable deck: hating Dredge (and reanimator and other graveyard decks, but let's face it, it's for Dredge). And in 12-Post specifically, graveyard decks have a reason to hate 12-Post more than any other grave-hate strategy in all of Legacy, and that's not an exaggeration. Thanks to Crop Rotation, a player can put a Bujoka Bog into play, at instant speed, at any point, during any turn (given the player left themselves a G). That's a big deal because opponents' don't know whether or not Crop Rotation is in the 12-Post player's hand, so they have a much more difficult time playing around it because they can't see it. What makes this trick of surprise grave hate even more devastating for opponents is that 12-Post players don't main four Vesuva solely to copy Locus lands.
The Creatures:
So now that I have briefly explained the mana base of 12-Post... or to be analogous, the bones, I'd like to talk about the muscle of the deck: the creatures. 12-Post has a low creature count, but those creatures are fearsome and will always impact the game if they resolve (even the occasionally played Trinket Mage), and the Eldrazi don't even have to resolve to impact the game.
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
4 Primeval Titan
Trinket Mage (tagged correctly here) is actually an on again-off again card in 12-Post. However, there is a long list of cards that Trinket Mage can retrieve that are are essential to 12-Post. The most important is Sensei's Divining Top, but Trinket Mage also finds Expedition Map, Pithing Needle, and Candelabra (who's importance will vary from specific situation to situation). The reason that Trinket Mage fell out of favor, in my opinion, is because the two most essential cards that Trinket Mage fetched, Candelabra of Tawnos and Expedition Map, can be circumvented altogether by Primeval Titan. So while those cards stayed because they are that important, the need to search them fell and Titan fell into Trinket Mage's slots. So while the majority of decks will not have the room for Trinket Mage, I could see it filling the role of Primeval Titan (who's not that expensive at the moment) or a niche role of fetching Pithing Needle... maybe try him in a sideboard?
Primeval Titan is one of the strangest creatures... in any deck to be honest... because a card like Primeval Titan would normally be the final win condition. It isn't in 12-Post. Primeval Titan, although as 6/6 trample capable of winning games by itself, is the set-up for the real late game threat of the Eldrazi. This is a huge advantage to 12-Post players because Primeval Titan and the Eldrazi Titans can be played in such a way that they are mutually exclusive strategies (kind of) instead of Titan into Eldrazi, primarily thanks to Show and Tell.
But for the more important aspect of actually landing a Primeval Titan, here's the general order to fetch lands for Primeval Titan:
2 Karakas
3 A 12-Post Land
4 Other Lands
5 Skip the trigger
6 Glacial Chasm
The order that these come down is of course situation specific, but the Eye of Ugin should always be first unless you see a Wasteland and can't take advantage of the search before the Eye dies (you can get it back when an Eldrazi dies). The only thing that might be a truly difficult question is whether to get a Locus land or to get a Vesuva and copy a Locus land. But either way, between Show and Tell and Locus mana, there should be no problem casting or cheating him in. Always run 4 Primeval Titan.
Before I get into the specific legendary Eldrazi, I'd like to say something about them as a collective. Whatever a 12-Post may need, one of them will be able to solve that need. And if you need one of them more than once, use Karakas. And lastly, because they have effects that say, "When ~ is cast..." you get the effect even if the Eldrazi doesn't resolve, although opponents can still Stifle those. Because of that, there should rarely be a situation where one would wish they ran multiples of any particular one. So without further ado:
Kozilek, the Butcher of Truth is my personal favorite Eldrazi. Even more so than Emrakul because Kozilek makes sure the 12-Post player has *stuff*. Normally in other decks that play Eldrazi, this would be an issue because that means that 12-Post has to wait a turn to cast the drawn *stuff*. In 12-Post, when the player normally casts Kozilek, he/she can cast the *stuff* that same turn because there can be that much mana left over. Also, being a 12/12 that can be cast for as low as 8 with Annihilator 4 doesn't hurt either.
Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre fixes problems. Its cast trigger in particular is important because it was ruled that it escapes Humility, which is important. Killing any permanent though can solve any number of problems that could be thrown at 12-Post. And the indestructible means that it's harder to kill with Wrath effects. The drawback to that though is that there're a lot more than Wrath effects in Legacy such as Swords to Plowshares, Terminus, and Diabolic Edict. But between destroying the most problematic permanent and Annihilator 4, Ulamog can easily sweep up a game.
Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is the most fearsome single card that any deck can put into play at this point and time... well, Turn 1 Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur might be... but Emrakul is harder to kill, ergo, I still call her the scariest creature in the game. Having the largest base stats, a cast trigger of Time Walk (which 98% of the time might as well mean super haste), being uncounterable, protection from most of the things that would kill even Ulamog, and Annihilator 6 generally adds up to swiftly killing the opponent on the spot. Oh... and she flies because... why not?
Ramp!:
All the creatures in 12-Post are made possible by the mana produced by the Locus lands. The Locus lands though have some help of their own.
4 Crop Rotation
4 Expedition Map
Candelabra of TawnosCandelabra of Tawnos is one of the saddest cards since someone put t in its effect (it's important to know that because it's not on the printed card).* Regardless, it is still the strongest ramp card in the deck. For example, with just two Cloudposts, Candelabra could make a Wurmcoil Engine. In UG 12-Post though, it makes the GG for Primeval Titan and untapping a field of Cloudposts and/or a used Eye of Ugin/Karakas can mean casting multiple Eldrazi (even the same one) in the same turn. A devastating move that should seal the game. In terms of numbers, running 1 is not optimal but doable, 2 works a lot easier, and 3 apparently the number to maximize their abuse factor (or so I read on MTGSource). The biggest drawback to this card though is it's on the reserve list and cost a lot.*This punchline will be lost on anyone that knows what a Mono Artifact is.
Crop Rotation is one of those rare green cards that has a dual function that the creators couldn't have intended when it was created (then again... it's from Urza's Saga, which I hear the creators had no clue what any of what they printed in there would end up doing). The cute standard trick to Crop Rotation is to sack a land for a Cloudpost or Vesuva copying a Cloudpost for more mana. Fortunately, as an instant, 12-Post can do a lot more than just that. I already mentioned the interaction with Bojuka Bog, but it also is one of the few outs to Wasteland that 12-Post players can use. The trick is when they sacrifice Wasteland for the cost and declare their target, the 12-Post player responds by sacrificing the target for the cost of Crop Rotation and then replacing it with a fresh, not to be destroyed land. One thing to watch out for though is that sacrificing the land to Crop Rotation is a cost, so the land is gone regardless of what happens to Crop Rotation.
Expedition Map is an early game search for the land the 12-Post player will need. While significantly weaker than Primeval Titan, it has the significant advantage of costing 1 to cast and 2 to activate (at any point). Using only colorless mana and being a Locus, color, and utility mana fixing card is not something to just pass by.
Show and Tell is the primary way that to land anything before it should hit the board (followed by Candelabra and then just actually curving into it). For example, earlier I mentioned that Primeval Titan and the Eldrazi could be played as mutually exclusive strategies that throw opponents off and Show and Tell makes that possible. Show and Tell itself makes opponents uneasy because regardless of what 12-Post players drop in, they'll be in a much better position unless their opponent drops in Hive Mind, Griselbrand, Terastodon... or their Emrakul, the Aeons Torn. Generally, this is how I'd prioritize the top 10 things Show and Tell should drop into play:
2 Eldrazi
3 Locus Lands
4 Artifacts
5 Sideboard answers
6 Trinket Mage
7 Choose not to put in anything
8 Senei's Divining Top
9 Get a warning from a Judge for trying to put in a Brainstorm
10 Glacial Chasm
The reason that I put Primeval Titan ahead of the Eldrazi is because if the Eldrazi and put in via Show and Tell, they miss their cast triggers. However, this list is of course dependent on what is in the hand when this all goes down and who the opponent is. The only specific one I'll address because I set myself up for it though is Primeval Titan vs. Eldrazi Titan. Which one should go in first? In my current experience, go for Primeval Titan because he'll get the land you need to hardcast said competing Eldrazi next turn. The exception is when getting the Annihilator online is more important than anything the deck could possibly do otherwise. This namely comes up when I'm going against Storm.
12-Post's Control Package:
Lastly, the mainboard has to maintain control. Unlike most control decks in Legacy, the control the 12-Post player mostly keeps is over their own resources, not their opponents' (with one glaring exception called Wasteland). We just generally don't care what the opponent does because it can be undone with Glimmerpost or held off with Glacial Chasm (no spiteful comment here... that's where Glacial Chasm shines).
4 Brainstorm
All is Dust is an expensive sweeper, but it hits almost everything that might be a problem to us... unless the problem is artifacts. But right now most mainstream Legacy decks rely on colored permanents to win. And with the exception of Primeval Titan, we don't. What this means is that we can clear the board of a bad situation in most cases without losing any board presence and then advance our own even further.
I'm going to talk about Brainstorm and Sensei's Divining Top together because they serve the same basic function: fix bad hands. Everyone should know this is why these cards are run, but their really important in 12-Post because at any given point, over half a player's hand can be dead. Point is, 12-Post gets bad hands sometimes like everyone else, these make them either more tolerable or altogether go away with one of the many shuffle effects.
Oblivion Stone is an answer to opponents that rely on non-land permanents to win. After all, unless the deck is... well... combo, at some point an opponent has to commit something to the board to win. And regardless of what that something is, unless it's a land, Oblivion Stone solves it. And unlike All is Dust, players get to tell MUD to shove it as well. General consensus at the moment is to main 2-3 and side the rest. Also, word of warning. 12-Post commits to the board as well, especially Candelabra, so be careful when laying one of these to blow. Granted losing a Candelabra is better than losing the game, but there are possibilities to avoid those tight spots.
Pithing Needle. Two words sum up its function in the mainboard: call Wasteland. There's a long list of cards that Pithing Needle stops including planeswalkers, Griselbrand, Sword of Feast and Famine, and anything with ":" in its effect. But as long as those cards are not on the field, call Wasteland. If you already called Wasteland with a Pithing Needle, do it again because Pithing Needles get destroyed all the time (although hold back that second one if Maelstrom Pulse is coming). And if you are sure enough that you can handle a problem activated ability, call Wasteland. So to recap, unless Pithing Needle has to answer a more immediate problem, CALL WASTELAND.
Repeal is one of the most unique control cards that is (I think but am not certain) exclusive to 12-Post because it's a swiss army knife for what we want to do. First, Repeal cantrips. That's always a plus. Second, it protects the 12-Posts (non-land) *stuff*. 12-Post produces enough mana to bounce back Emrakul (if she didn't have protection from colored Spells), so saving something important is a non-issue. Third, it makes annoying things the opponent plays go away. Funniest thing to Repeal yet: a reanimated Griselbrand that my opponent was hoping to use the life link to stay alive. And fourth, combo potential. This falls in Repealing a Primeval Titan that's already swung for pseudo-vigilance and more land, but the much easier play is to bounce Candelabra of Tawnos after tapping it once to make an abundance of mana to make an even more abundance of mana.
The Sideboard:
The sideboard is the most essential tool to 12-Post because Legacy is a diverse meta that's entirely to widespread to deal with just the 60 cards alone. These are the key cards and what they are needed for:
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Flusterstorm is one of the best counterspells in Legacy. The main reason it is played is because it helps to solve storm, pesky control matches, and decks that rely heavily on non-creature spells to pull victory through (that's namely Reanimator off the top of my head). And 12-Post deck generally doesn't run enough blue cards for Force of Will, and we really don't want to pitch what we do have for it. I'm sure Negate, Mana Leak, Remand, or Rune Snag would be a good budget fit as well (if Storm wasn't be a concern), but I bring it up because one thing to remember is the deck doesn't create UU very often in the early game, so stick to costs with a single U if siding them is important.
Venser, Shaper Savant is another control card with the bonus of being a creature. Siding two is important because he basically serves as Repeal five and six, except Venser can hit spells as well, so he can break games with Mindbreak Trap type results. The most popular thing to do with him though at the moment is to use him to help reign in the Show and Tell match-up. As a creature, he can bounce whatever an opponent may try to cheat into play, hopefully to keep it out of play.
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale helps solve aggro (Goblins, Jund, and Esper Stoneblade with Lingering Souls) and taxes control decks that run out early game threats (namely RUG and BUG Delver). Generally not mained because there can only be so many useful lands that don't produce mana, and Glacial Chasm shows more immediate results in a tight spot.
If the player needed to blow their opponent's *things* up game one, having a full set of Oblivion Stone makes the task much easier come game two to blow their opponent's *things* up again and again.
Generally, a full play set of Pithing Needle isn't needed main board. Siding the last one is optional. I guess if someone feels they really need to up the odds of getting them, then go for it. Personally, I'd say use the space for Trinket Mage at that point.
All is Dust is not always a main deck card. If the local meta has a lot of artifact decks, then it's better to drop it. If it has plenty of artifact decks but still a lot of decks that require colored permanents, then try All is Dust for the side board instead. Or do a 1-1 split.
Cursed Totem does not hit triggered abilities, therefore, not only are the Eldrazi safe from it but so is Primeval Titan, Trinket Mage, and Venser, Shaper Savant. Primarily, use this to shutdown Metalworker... or MUD in general, as well as Deathrite Shaman.
Elephant Grass is technically a worse version of Propaganda, which this deck could easily side... except Elephant Grass (costing G) comes down as soon as turn 1, and Propaganda (costs 2U) can only come down as soon as turn 3... and if 12-Post taps out turn 3 only to have their sole defense destroyed, that'd usually spells game. Side Elephant Grass in against aggro decks and low cost, low-curve decks because they generally don't have the mana to attack and cast their defenses.
Spellskite is a 0/4 for 2, which provides a lot of defense on its own, but for (P/U), it also draws a lot of attention to itself that opponents' don't want it to. I'm not entirely sure what it's optimal against, but I know it can draw away Swords to Plowshares, Ancient Grudge, Lightning Bolt, and a lot of other things as well.
Chalice of the Void is to hate on Storm as well as low curve decks. Set it to 0, 1, or 2, and most storm decks hit a hard place (still want to set a Chalice to 5 one day against ANT to see if it's possible and what happens next), and most decks that curve out at 3 will have to answer it soon or lose access to a good chunk of their deck.
Mindbreak Trap further kills storm. It's also a card that opposing 12-Post players or Omniscience players don't want to see because it is one of the few answers to Emrakul, the Aeons Torn.
Phyrexian Revoker has a neat trick that gives it an edge against Pithing Needle in certain matches: Phyrexian Revoker can hit mana abilities, which is why the player can't name lands. This makes it useful against MUD (call Metalworker) and ANT (call Lion's Eye Diamond most of the time).
Additional Resources:
I am an amateur when it comes to playing 12-Post (<-That's a pretty important tell as well since the deck is also known as "Turbo Eldrazi"). And while I'm working towards creating a worthy Locus Lands Primer, there are people who have been working for a long time on the deck.
MTG The Source's "Turbo Eldrazi" Primer
Decks:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Island
Creatures: 7
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Instants
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Repeal
Sorceries
4 Show and Tell
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Cursed Totem
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flusterstorm
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
StarCity Games Open Series in Providence.
1 Island
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cloudpost
1 Flooded Strand
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Tropical Island
4 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Artifacts: 12
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei’s Divining Top
Instants: 12
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Repeal
Sorceries: 4
4 Show and Tell
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Cursed Totem
1 Pithing Needle
2 Elephant Grass
4 Flusterstorm
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
http://www.azmagicplayers.com/articles/not-of-this-world-yes-it-is-1st-place-at-scg-san-diego-with-12post/
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Flooded Strand
1 Polluted Delta
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Primeval Titan
2 Trinket Mage
Artifacts: 11
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Expedition Map
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Oblivion Stone
Instants: 11
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
3 Repeal
4 Show and Tell
4 Flusterstorm
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Oblivion Stone
2 Chalice of the Void
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?25384-NELC-Jan-19-Turbo-Eldrazi-Splits-Top-4-at-Jupiter-Games&p=699150#post699150
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Artifacts: 13
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
4 Oblivion Stone
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Instants: 11
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
3 Repeal
Sorceries: 3
3 Show and Tell
3 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Flusterstorm
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Show and Tell
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=52991
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
1 Thespian's Stage
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
4 Primeval Titan
2 Trinket Mage
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Artifacts: 11
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
3 Oblivion Stone
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Instants: 11
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
3 Repeal
3 Show and Tell
2 Chalice of the Void
1 Oblivion Stone
2 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Flusterstorm
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Spell Pierce
1 Show and Tell
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
2 Island
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Tropical Island
4 Vesuva
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Trinket Mage
4 Primeval Titan
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Oblivion Stone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Expedition Map
Instants: 11
3 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
Sorceries: 4
4 Show and Tell
2 Flusterstorm
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Oblivion Stone
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Unknown cards
Source: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.php?id=10178&iddeck=74136
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Artifacts: 12
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
3 Pithing Needle
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Instants: 12
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Repeal
Sorceries: 4
4 Show and Tell
4 Flusterstorm
3 Chalice of the Void
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Elephant Grass
2 Cursed Totem
1 Pithing Needle
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
1 Thespian’s Stage
8 Forest
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Creatures: 4
2 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
1 Crucible of Worlds
4 Expedition Map
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
Enchantments: 3
3 Exploration
Instants: 4
4 Crop Rotation
Sorceries: 10
3 All Is Dust
4 Ancient Stirrings
3 Explore
3 Krosan Grip
4 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pithing Needle
1 Powder Keg
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Thorn of Amethyst
Source: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?24848-Deck-Turbo-Eldrazi&p=736986&viewfull=1#post736986
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Bojuka Bog
Creatures: 9
2 Trinket Mage
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Insants: 12
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Repeal
Sorceries: 4
4 Show and Tell
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Iona, Shield of Emeria
4 Flusterstorm
4 Force of Will
Match Analysis:
Special thanks to Insanely for providing most of the match analysis thus far.
Three more I'd like to add that are not on the list yet:
BUG Delver - Game 1: even match; post board: favorable.
BUG applies the same pressure as RUG, but rather than burn, they can hit hard with hand disruption. The good news is that disruption's biggest enemy (Brainstorm) can help keep your hand safe, but side board wise, Tabernacle and Elephant Grass can mitigate problems (watch out for Abrupt Decay), but also keep in mind that Cursed Totem can keep Deathrite Shaman at bay, and I've used Chalice of the Void to keep my opponent off balance.
MUD - Game 1: unfavorable; post board: even match.
MUD is one of our most unfavorable match-ups because MUD can race Locus mana with Metalworker and Grim Monolith, resulting in the possibility of them racing use with Wurmcoil Engine, Kudoltha Forgemaster, Sundering Titan, Lodestone Golem, Steel Hellkite, and Blightsteel Colossus. Most of these can come down as soon as turn 2 on a, but most likely they start coming in Turn 3+. Make sure post board there is a full set of Oblivion Stone and Cursed Totem and Phyrexian Revoker shut down Metalworker, which is important because he's a mana ability.
Ad Nauseum Tendrils - Game 1: Unfavorable; Post board: slightly favorable
There's not much we can do about ANT game 1. Best case is game one you call the right fetchland with Pithing Needle and kill their hand... but that's nothing to rely on. Things that will help though: Chalice of the Void, Flusterstorm, Mindbreak Trap, Phyrexian Revoker (call Lion's Eye Diamond), and Venser, Shaper Savant. The focus post board, as with all decks that go against ANT, moves from pushing our threats out to shutting them down.
Mockingbird's Note: If Mindbreak Trap is in the sideboard, bring it in against Elves as well.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
I feel like this deck could benefit from some sort of living wish/cunning wish sideboard to grab show and tells or eldrazi.
The deck has a great match up against many decks, and people tend not to know it so they don’t know how to react. When the opponent sb against 12 post, the 12 post player just wins by using different tricks that they didn’t use the first game..
:symr::symw::symu:Patriot Blade:symu::symw::symr:
:symb::symg:Cherri:0mana:s:symg::symb:
I would love to build a mono-green "budget" version of this deck. That or having Frantic Search unbanned would be sweet for this deck.
Thanks for spiderboy4 of High~Light_Studios for the kick ass avatar.
Thanks for DarkNightCavalier of HotPS for the exceptional signature.
I've mulled to 4 once because of this...
just something to note....
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyAs a Tron player in Modern , mulling to 4 is dangerous, but not unmanageable. Also, as someone who's played 26 lands in ramp decks, mana clumping like that is generally caused by a bad shuffle after a game where Primeval Titan went nuts for too long.
I've been looking into potential draw power, and one card I've actually thought about helping the deck out is Stroke of Genius because it's the only draw x card I could find that requires only one U, so it's relatively easy on a primarily colorless mana base. Also with Candelabra of Tawnos, it can make for another win condition by targeting your opponent or digging out Emrakul (and then get around decking yourself out by discarding Kozilek with the rest of your over limit hand at end of turn).
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
I was playing on teh cockatrice....
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething Spicy*Sigh* I figured you'd say that which is why I gave myself a little leeway with the word "generally."
But I still stand by my statement that 25 Lands shouldn't normally be too much of a problem with flooding. About what is your (guessed) ratio of early mana flooding to getting a decent hand?
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
If you really want something similar in the deck then, Magus of the Candelabra will work just fine.
I was ending up with 9 good hands: 2 Bad hands: 1 Terribad..
Good means that I could do my thing with protection or could hide my pieces to discard and such
Bad means im missing either the lands (or search), A way to get a fatty out or I was missing Brainstorm or top...
I just didnt feel comfortable with certain hands that ended up being good, so grain of salt...
I think not, as I was using repeal to bounce the candelabra to be able to get more mana.
It may be a fine substitute, but you sometimes will notice where you wish you had a candelabra...
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething Spicyhttps://fieldmarshalshandbook.wordpress.com/
RUGLegacy Lands.dec
RUGBLegacy Lands.dec
RGLegacy Lands.dec
WUBRG EDH Lands.dec
UBR EDH Artificer Prodigy
B EDH Relentless Rats
It was an interesting read. Taught me a lot about the deck I didn't know. I think my favorite part of the report was when a Show and Tell was countered, so he just hardcast the Primeval Titan instead. That made me chuckle.
One thing that it did make me wonder is if Venser, the Sojourner could ever be a good fit for the deck because the deck has so many more things to blink than Primeval Titan. The majority of the mana base for example: Bojuka Bog for continual grave hate, Glimmerpost for obscene live totals, Glacial Chasm to reset cumulative upkeep, Vesuva, or even a tapped Island to hold up mana for Brainstorm sounds like a good idea (you know... if it didn't cost 3UW to get it, especially the W).
EDIT: Forgot the Sacrifice a land for Glacial Chasm... so it might not be as good of a Sojourner interaction as I originally thought.
Also as a brief update, I've come up with a list of cards that I'm going to be trying soon, and others can see how they work as well:
Stroke of Genius - Instant speed mass draw power for x2U, I think it's worth trying considering Jeremiah cast Kozilek,Butcher of Truth twice in the same turn with Karakas, which is at least 16-20. Not that it should replace Kozilek, but if you have that kind of mana... draw x sounds like a place to start (you know, until somebody comes along with RG Cloudpost with Banefire).
Karn Liberated - This is the Modern Tron player in me that knows the value of Karn coming down turn 3. I wonder if Cloudpost has the same kind of value.
Remand - A control card that cantrips. Only reason I try it over Force of Will or Spell Pierce for control.
Amulet of Vigor - With so many come into play tapped lands and Primeval Titan, I'm curious if a singleton would make a difference in how the deck launches.
Jace, the Mind Sculptor- It's Jace, and the deck runs blue. I think there's is a law somewhere that says every blue player has check who can consistently hit the mana to try has to at some point.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyIf you are talking about Venser, the Sojourner, then that unfortunately is not how the Eldrazi work. All the Eldrazi say, "When you cast ~, Tidings/Vindicate/Time Walk," which means that when you exile and return an Eldrazi to the battlefield for Sojourner's plus, all you've done is give it pseudo-vigilance (which having a blocker as big as them is not that bad). The upside though is that your opponent uses Force of Will on Kozilek or Ulamog (or Mindbreak Trap on Emrakul), you still get the cast trigger unless Stifled.
If you're talking about Venser, Shaper Savant, then personally I find Karakas to be a cheaper alternative to bounce the Eldrazi in question.
EDIT: to help prevent confusion between Venser's from this point on I will call Venser, the Sojourner "Sojourner" and Venser, Shaper Savant "Savant."
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
I do think Karn would be fun to play, but is there space for him?
WGURBLands!WGURB
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There's so many expensive power cards out there now. I only have a Moat and a Tabernacle. I guess making this deck will add Candelabra to the list.
How often do you find yourself with a ton of mana and nothing to do with it?
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I was referencing the Shaper Savannt version, and was pointing it out because some people may not realize that.... I agree karakas may be better, but sometimes Savant may help more...
540 Peasant cube- Gold EditionSomething SpicyThe short answer is that I'm unsure.
I've started playing the deck in real life myself, and the first thing I learned is that it plays almost nothing like the closest Modern counterpart, UrzaTron, despite the goal of both being to ramp into massive colorless threats. The two leading differences being that first within the decks themselves, you have to play around the fact that eight of the twelve Locus (Cloudpost and Vesuva) come into play tapped, and second, we just have more... things... to deal with coming from our opponents in Legacy than in Modern.
To tie this all back to Karn Liberated, what makes Karn effective in Modern is that he tends to come down turn 3 using the assembled UrzaTron, which swings the tempo of the game. To get that same result in 12-Post, the lands would have to be T1 Cloudpost, T2 Cloudpost/Vesuva, T3 Glimmerpost. Often that is not ideal because you want to get a Tropical Island in the early game so that you can Brainstorm, Show and Tell, or Crop Rotation. Karn is still a strong card though, so I wouldn't say don't try it. My word of caution is don't expect Karn to work like he does in Modern if you play Tron in Modern.
If you don't get Eye of Ugin as soon as Cloudpost enters Kozilek range without an Eldrazi in hand... you'd be surprised how much mana you wind up not using in a single turn.
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Crucible Of Worlds
4 Grim Monolith
Artifact Creatures
2 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Copper Gnomes
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Steel Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine
3 Karn Liberated
Tribal Sorceries
3 All Is Dust
Lands
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Wasteland
4 Trinisphere
4 Smokestack
3 Tangle Wire
2 Sundering Titan
1 Silent Arbiter
1 Platinum Emperion
Cloudpost doesn't seem that great with grim monoliths to be honest. The fact they come into play tapped can mean no first turn bonkers (Chalice or the like.) I think posts need a deck with crop rotation and some land fetch (Exp. Map) where MUD already rocks with Mox Diamond and sol lands.
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Not a fan of putting in Posts in what is essentially a MUD deck.
The thing with the current post list is that it has plenty of ways of actually assembling Posts in order to generate insane amounts of mana. Jeremiah's list uses Exped Maps, Crop Rots, SDT's, Brainstorms, Primeval Titan and even Repeals to ensure you get whatever lands you need.
Putting the 12post package in a deck with no means of fetching your posts seems a bit too inconsistent for me.
How was your testing on this?
Edit: apparently I'm wrong because MUD made T32 (or 16) teching the 12-Post mana base.
By the way, I've still been playing a ripped copy of the Providence deck mainly because irl time restraints and still feeling out the deck. So what other deck lists are there?
candidus inperti; si nil, his utere mecum.
~~~~~
4 x Flusterstorm
3 x Mindbreak Trap
2 x Elephant Grass
2 x Venser Shaper Savant
1 x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3 x Chalice of the Void
My buddies and I decided on the 3 x Chalice of the Void instead of 2 x Beast Within and 1 x Spellskite because we expected a lot of Storm Combo in our meta.
Went 5-1-1 after 7 Rounds, and I ended up 7th, but unfortunately I lost at the quarterfinals due to a horrible play error on my part.
Here's a short recap of my matchups that day. I don't have notes on any of my matches so, this will be short and taken from memory:
Round 1: vs. Nic Fit 2-0
Game 1 I was able to power out Ulamog pretty early, but by then the opponent played a Sigarda, Host of Herons. I answered by playing Emrakul, but I was at a semi-dangerous life level at that point (since he had Sigarda and Thrun in play on his side), so i decided to keep both boys on the defense. He responded by sacrificing an Academy Rector to fetch Faith's Fetters on Emrakul, which gave Sigarda free reign to attack. i was able to stall for time by dropping Glimmerposts, until I found Karakas to bounce Emrakul, and play him again for infinite turns.
Game 2 My opponent sided in some Helm of Obediences hoping to flip an eldrazi. He also played Humility in the hopes it would stop the boys from wreaking havoc. Fortunately, the trigger on the eldrazi is on cast, not an EtB effect (we had to confirm with the judge), so a hard-casted Kozilek enabled me to draw into Ulamog, and destroy the pesky enchantment. A last-ditch effort moat tried to stop the damage, but I had Karakas available to bounce Ulamog and play him for the win
Round 2: vs. UW Miracles 2-1
Game 1 I had the sheer unluck of not drawing any Cloudposts. All my fetch spells were countered, and JTMS' ultimate finished me off.
Game 2 and 3 went smoothly, with me able to power out the boys even through counterspells and Vendillion Cliques.
Round 3: vs. LED Dredge 2-0
Game 1 I cast Crop Rotation into Bojuka Bog just when he had a ton of cards in the GY and no threats on board. It was over soon after as he could not recover.
Game 2 I rode on the back of Elephant Grass and got 2 Expedition Maps in play ready to fetch the Bog and Vesuva if needed. My opponent scooped when I cracked one of them end of his turn for a Bog.
Round 4: vs. ANT 0-2
Game 1 went without a hitch for the opponent.
Game 2 was the same, as I kept a hand with no answers in the hopes that Brainstorm and SDT will provide them. They didn't.
Round 5: vs. BG Rock 2-0
Game 1 A hard-casted Emrakul weakened my opponent's board, but he had enough resources left-over and played a Liliana of the Veil next turn, and used her -2 ability to force me to sac Emrakul. Phyrexian Revoker on my SDT forced me to top-deck for answers. I eventually drew into Emrakul again and sealed the deal.
Game 2 I was able to Show and Tell Ulamog into play turn 3. My opponent had no outs and scooped.
Round 6: vs. RUG Delver 1-1
Game 1 My opponent had a very strong board and applied a ton of pressure before I could stall with a Glacial Chasm. I struggled to ramp up, but with no Cloudposts going my way, I couldn't get enough mana to cast the All is Dust in my hand, and he finished me off with Lightning Bolts when I could no longer pay for Chasm during my upkeep.
Game 2 I was able to prevent my opponent from applying pressure, but at the same time he was disrupting me. 2 Primeval Titans came down on my side, and went on the assault for the kill. Unfortunately, time was called during this round, so we were unable to play the 3rd game and were forced to draw the round.
Round 7: vs. UW Miracles 2-0
Game 1 I resolved a Show and Tell for Primeval Titan. He scooped once he realized what the deck was up to as he had no removal in his hand.
Game 2 We went back and forth for a while, and a resolved Candelabra powered out Primeval Titan, which, again, he had no answer for. He scooped soon afterward.
Quarterfinals: vs. ANT 1-2
Game 1 He had a terrible hand, and I was able to play Emrakul off a Primeval Titan.
Game 2 He killed me on turn 2 on the back of a Silence. I only had 1 counter in hand, so I couldn't stop it.
Game 3 Is a long game, basically with me able to answer his first attempt. I had a Chalice for 1 and Chalice for 0, but I could not ramp up and made a crucial error of not casting Mindbreak Trap on his Ad Nauseam, which is the last card in his hand, thinking I would be fine. Hull breach on Chalice-1 allowed him to play Silence next turn and combo me out.
I won a Revised Plateau for my trouble, and a bye for the next major event. All in all, the deck performed beautifully, and I would definitely play it again next time!