So, now that I discovered Protector of the Crown, that mixes things up. I'm not quite sure how to build the best deck in the format that no one plays. What do you think Drmarkb? I'm even considering taking it out CotW for it. I'm currently testing it 2x CotW and 2x Protector but I'll probably run 3-4 protector just for testing purposes. So we'll see how I fee later, but I've played it enough to know that it's good, just maybe not good enough to replace CotW. The thing is, the real reason this deck is good is because of the insane card draw, and hate creatures, moreso than the fact we can dump a bunch of power on the board.
I'm still not sure though, CotW is really good, and is great in late game grinds with being able to put a bunch of bodies and power down immediately. It's not a replacement for Charioteers, because they are different mana costs, and we need Charioteers to come down early in some matchups.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Playing against Food Chains a bit last week. Looking for some advice on the matchup.
They were able to combo me, chains + Griffins then Emrakul.
After game 1 what comes in? Leonin Relic-Warder (or what ever enchanment hate), Sanctum Prelate - on 3 for food chains, Etherworn Canonist, Phrexian Revoker.
What would be the beat to take out?
Ethersworn, Revoker, Leonin, Sanctum Prelate and Damping Matrix in, take out Protector or CotW
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
So, now that I discovered Protector of the Crown, that mixes things up. I'm not quite sure how to build the best deck in the format that no one plays. What do you think Drmarkb? I'm even considering taking it out CotW for it. I'm currently testing it 2x CotW and 2x Protector but I'll probably run 3-4 protector just for testing purposes. So we'll see how I fee later, but I've played it enough to know that it's good, just maybe not good enough to replace CotW. The thing is, the real reason this deck is good is because of the insane card draw, and hate creatures, moreso than the fact we can dump a bunch of power on the board.
I'm still not sure though, CotW is really good, and is great in late game grinds with being able to put a bunch of bodies and power down immediately. It's not a replacement for Charioteers, because they are different mana costs, and we need Charioteers to come down early in some matchups.
I am not honestly sure about protector- I have not had the time to test it- I have been working on Pox predominantly Legacy wise for a couple of weeks- on of my first decks in Legacy and one of the ones I return to periodically just to keep my hand in for a couple of months a year when I feel it can do well, so I would rather not pass judgement than talk without any experience. I have plenty of COTW experience, and I feel that 3 is the maximum, and 2 is better. Could a deck run 4 x 6 cc things? Maybe, especially if it ran shoal in the board for aggro matches. I could not as I am running just 3 Preeminent- although that may be a mistake, I simply need more hours testing and playing.
Monarch is a fantastic ability, and we use it way better than D N T. Sadly for us D N T has smother draws and does way less self-damage, but I feel the more Monarch cards that enter the format the better for this deck.
Charioteers are ideal as they hit two key points and cover two weaknesses- Flying and 4 toughness on one hand for Delver decks and bolt decks, and Lifelink/Evasion on the other. Evasion is super relevant with Monarch. It is peculiar how a 2/4 lifelinker flyer works so well in certain matches- Infect, RUG, Grixis, Jund, Burn and UR delver, plus as a stalemate breaker vs D N T and BUG. The 4cc cost sort of works in its favour too vs Abrupt Decay suites, whilst they are only weak vs combo decks, and lets face it, they are no weaker than any other dude that does not have a hate ability tacked on. The nominally better 3cc version is simply not up to it due to the toughness- the matches where it is needed often have bolts. I would not swap 6cc for 4cc, they do different things......
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So yeah, this is the list I'm taking to the SCG Legacy Open next Month, because it's not too far from where I live. It will be my first Legacy GP and the first big tournament with the deck. Wish me luck!
I would run no more than 4x 6cc Creatures. It could be right for the Charioteers to be in the maindeck, there's just really nothing I want to cut. Possibly 1x Winter Orb and/or 1x CotW. I like protector because it does a lot of what Charioteers does, and it also turns on Monarch, regains Monarch and of course "protects" the Crown. I don't think the added power, Vigilance and bodies is important enough with CotW to make it better than Protector, except it's nice vs Jace and Lily. The Vigilance is also good at protecting Monarch, but ultimately I think Protector does more. And I feel like with Protector and 2 Charioteers in the Sideboard, my matchup against D&T and TNN and Delver will be much better now. TNN decks and Delver were some of the hardest decks for us to face up against, and that's why I like Protector so much. Problem with Delver is the Wasteland can prevent me from getting to 6 mana fast enough, but as long as I get Protector down the turn before they kill me I'm Gucci. D&T is already a pretty even matchup, with game one being in their favor, and postboard being slightly in our favor. But I don't want to go into a tournament with a 50-50 chance. I want to feel like I have at least a 70 percent chance of beating every deck and with Protector and Charioteers I think that the chance goes up to 70-30 in my favor. It's true that sometimes dropping a fast CotW when ahead on board just overwhelms too fast and that speed can be great "hate" in the sense that some decks won't have time to stabilize, or Ad Nauseum will be at too low a life total to combo off. All in all I think I do have at least a 70-30 chance against most top tier decks I can think of with this list (i.e. Miracles, Ad Nauseum, Reanimator, D&T, Delver, TNN Variants, Lands). Shardless BUG will probably be a better matchup with Protector because the Baleful Strix stealing Monarch was a problem. Of course, the Deathtouch still kills the Protector, but it buys another turn at least.
Eldrazi is a matchup I'm more scared to face up against, although still very winnable, I'm unsure of the percentage, partially because I haven't seen much Eldrazi on Cockatrice for a while. I do think Protector will be fine here as well, although now I can't rely on overpowering with Lords, if the game stalls I have to hope to draw a my Charioteers and fly over them.
With a fat booty on Protector, we also worry less about Captaining him into play to his immediate demise, which could be an issue with CotW.
@DrMarkb I don't think it would be wise for me to run less than 4 Captain in my list since I have Winter Orb and Hokori. 3 Captain doesn't seem too insane, since it's not the card I want to be casting first anyways, it is is one of the cards with least priority in the casting order. Once I've landed hate cards though, the goal is to land a Captain and start pumping out creatures and dmg.
Lucky for @Astebel, since I will be going to this tournament I want to be prepared, and I will be writing down all the Sideboard swaps, and matchup notes for myself. I will share those notes, and I can turn that into a primer while I'm at it perhaps.
I probably should look into the Meta in Massachusetts as well.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Protector does make the deck weaker to Miracles though, because landing a CotW after they Terminus could end the game quickly.
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Rendroc: Are you going to SCG Worcester? That's an Open, but it's NOT a Grand Prix. Grand Prixs are usually even bigger in scope than Opens. An Open is a big tournament and it will be tough to advance to day 2 (I've only done it once), but it's even tougher at a Grand Prix (which is a Wizards sponsored event).
Anyway, I'm going to that Open myself and I am debating whether to rock Soldier Stompy or Legend MUD. Maybe we'll see each other there and I can critique your Soldier list.
I meant to write Open. I'll be there most likely. We'll we increase our odds of Soldier winning the tournament if we're both are piloting the deck, but I would hate to have one of us lose in the Mirror match xD. So I encourage you to play Legend MUD, whatever that is. But play whatever you want!
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Sort of.
In terms of dealing with TNN its obviously worse than RH, but it can do a lot more- e.g. naming Show and Tell or Tendrils against their respective decks. At 4 (effectively 5cc with Thalia) its a shame they did not add cycling to it, but yeah. I will be considering it in a few decks, it seems decent value for Nevermore/Halo combination, especially in a format where 4 mana is easily obtained.
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How is it worse than Runed Halo? I can't see any way that it's better. Intervention is better in everyway. The "prevent all damage" is basically the same as protection.
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Miracles 2-1. Played the Monastery Mentor version of Miracles. Won game 1, game 2 he was able to flood the board with Tokens, game 3 no Terminus and it was a pounding win. This deck went to top 4.
BR Reanimator 1-2. He got Christmas each and every single game. He also had Chancellor of the Annex in hand to start all 3 games, multiples on game 3. I was able to snag game 2 with a Shining Shoal and Protector of the Crown. He was totally taken off guard. This deck went to top 4.
Burn 1-2. Traditional mono red build. Game 1 was Chalice on 1, followed by Chalice on 2 - he was pissed. Called for Ancient Tomb to be banned! Games 2 and 3 were super close. Game 3 I was ahead and ready to win, and then he hit me with a Price of Progress to kill me.
Shardless BUG 1-2. Got him game 1, as he just didn't have the removal needed to stop me. Games 2 and 3 were again close but he just out valued me each game. He gave me some tips to beat him - he suggested sideboarding out - Chalice x4 and Suppression field x3 as he said they didn't disrupt him enough.
Pox 2-1. Ensnaring bridge was killer for him. That is how he won game 1. Armageddon and Leonin Relic-Warder were the keys to winning games 2 and 3.
How is it worse than Runed Halo? I can't see any way that it's better. Intervention is better in everyway. The "prevent all damage" is basically the same as protection.
"
Two more mana....4 v 2, I thought that was clear, sorry for the confusion.
In the scenario you were talking about - TNN- you pay two more for the what is effectively the same effect- nerfing TNN.
A minor point- Protection and damage prevention are the same regarding TNN, but not regarding damage spells- a Skull crack can nerf prevention effects for a turn, but Protection negates targeting of spells, so Pro lightning bolt is marginally better than preventing all damage from lightning bolt. Not really relevant in Legacy of course.
But the extra two mana looks pretty decent as its a Nevermore as well and is Decay proof as a big bonus. Promising.
I think you are missing some ket differences. Internvention not only prevents TNN for dealing damage, it also allows you to attack into TNN which was a huge problem before as 3 power pro everything will eat most creatures on the block. It also doesn't die to Abrupt Decay, and Sultai TNN seems to be the most common TNN deck.
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I think intervention might be better in the sideboard than Charioteers. It does the job Charioteers is trying to do basically and it can do more.
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I think you are missing some ket differences. Internvention not only prevents TNN for dealing damage, it also allows you to attack into TNN which was a huge problem before as 3 power pro everything will eat most creatures on the block. It also doesn't die to Abrupt Decay, and Sultai TNN seems to be the most common TNN deck.
I said it was Decay proof.
Charioteers can be cheated in or cost reduced or pick up bonuses, and with Thalia Intervention costs 5, but yes,they sort of do the same thing sometimes. Charioteers can actually gain life and deal damage of course, in terms of TNN attacking they fulfil the same role because you can deal damage with the dudes on the ground in a way that is hard to do when TNN is down currently. No reason to not play both in a lot of metas, Intervention is a flexible card and can cover a lot of bases, and Charioteers is always going to be better against decks like burn where stopping one card is not that good.
So I guess someone from WotC reads this thread and saw that I said some kind of creature with an activated ability tax would make this deck for sure the best deck in the format, and they decided to make Harsh Mentor Red instead of White!! OMG I wanted to be able to play this card. SO sad.
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So with Sensei's Divining Top in now banned the Legacy meta will shift, and I'm not sure if that's good for Soldiers, although it's not like Miracles was the best matchup anyways, despite Sfied hitting Top. I'm not sure I agree with this banning.
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I mean yeah, Miracles wasn't a BAD matchup, I thought it was usually pretty even fight.
@Astebel doesn't release until November though
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I'm still not sure though, CotW is really good, and is great in late game grinds with being able to put a bunch of bodies and power down immediately. It's not a replacement for Charioteers, because they are different mana costs, and we need Charioteers to come down early in some matchups.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
They were able to combo me, chains + Griffins then Emrakul.
After game 1 what comes in? Leonin Relic-Warder (or what ever enchanment hate), Sanctum Prelate - on 3 for food chains, Etherworn Canonist, Phrexian Revoker.
What would be the beat to take out?
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I am not honestly sure about protector- I have not had the time to test it- I have been working on Pox predominantly Legacy wise for a couple of weeks- on of my first decks in Legacy and one of the ones I return to periodically just to keep my hand in for a couple of months a year when I feel it can do well, so I would rather not pass judgement than talk without any experience. I have plenty of COTW experience, and I feel that 3 is the maximum, and 2 is better. Could a deck run 4 x 6 cc things? Maybe, especially if it ran shoal in the board for aggro matches. I could not as I am running just 3 Preeminent- although that may be a mistake, I simply need more hours testing and playing.
Monarch is a fantastic ability, and we use it way better than D N T. Sadly for us D N T has smother draws and does way less self-damage, but I feel the more Monarch cards that enter the format the better for this deck.
Charioteers are ideal as they hit two key points and cover two weaknesses- Flying and 4 toughness on one hand for Delver decks and bolt decks, and Lifelink/Evasion on the other. Evasion is super relevant with Monarch. It is peculiar how a 2/4 lifelinker flyer works so well in certain matches- Infect, RUG, Grixis, Jund, Burn and UR delver, plus as a stalemate breaker vs D N T and BUG. The 4cc cost sort of works in its favour too vs Abrupt Decay suites, whilst they are only weak vs combo decks, and lets face it, they are no weaker than any other dude that does not have a hate ability tacked on. The nominally better 3cc version is simply not up to it due to the toughness- the matches where it is needed often have bolts. I would not swap 6cc for 4cc, they do different things......
Artifact 10
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
2 Winter Orb
Creature 27
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Palace Jailer
3 Protector of the Crown
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Daru Warchief
1 Captain of the Watch
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker
4 Suppression Field
Land 19
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
6 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Damping Matrix
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Containment Priest
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Dawnbringer Charioteers
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rest in Peace
2 Holy Light
2 Council's Judgment
I would run no more than 4x 6cc Creatures. It could be right for the Charioteers to be in the maindeck, there's just really nothing I want to cut. Possibly 1x Winter Orb and/or 1x CotW. I like protector because it does a lot of what Charioteers does, and it also turns on Monarch, regains Monarch and of course "protects" the Crown. I don't think the added power, Vigilance and bodies is important enough with CotW to make it better than Protector, except it's nice vs Jace and Lily. The Vigilance is also good at protecting Monarch, but ultimately I think Protector does more. And I feel like with Protector and 2 Charioteers in the Sideboard, my matchup against D&T and TNN and Delver will be much better now. TNN decks and Delver were some of the hardest decks for us to face up against, and that's why I like Protector so much. Problem with Delver is the Wasteland can prevent me from getting to 6 mana fast enough, but as long as I get Protector down the turn before they kill me I'm Gucci. D&T is already a pretty even matchup, with game one being in their favor, and postboard being slightly in our favor. But I don't want to go into a tournament with a 50-50 chance. I want to feel like I have at least a 70 percent chance of beating every deck and with Protector and Charioteers I think that the chance goes up to 70-30 in my favor. It's true that sometimes dropping a fast CotW when ahead on board just overwhelms too fast and that speed can be great "hate" in the sense that some decks won't have time to stabilize, or Ad Nauseum will be at too low a life total to combo off. All in all I think I do have at least a 70-30 chance against most top tier decks I can think of with this list (i.e. Miracles, Ad Nauseum, Reanimator, D&T, Delver, TNN Variants, Lands). Shardless BUG will probably be a better matchup with Protector because the Baleful Strix stealing Monarch was a problem. Of course, the Deathtouch still kills the Protector, but it buys another turn at least.
Eldrazi is a matchup I'm more scared to face up against, although still very winnable, I'm unsure of the percentage, partially because I haven't seen much Eldrazi on Cockatrice for a while. I do think Protector will be fine here as well, although now I can't rely on overpowering with Lords, if the game stalls I have to hope to draw a my Charioteers and fly over them.
With a fat booty on Protector, we also worry less about Captaining him into play to his immediate demise, which could be an issue with CotW.
@DrMarkb I don't think it would be wise for me to run less than 4 Captain in my list since I have Winter Orb and Hokori. 3 Captain doesn't seem too insane, since it's not the card I want to be casting first anyways, it is is one of the cards with least priority in the casting order. Once I've landed hate cards though, the goal is to land a Captain and start pumping out creatures and dmg.
Lucky for @Astebel, since I will be going to this tournament I want to be prepared, and I will be writing down all the Sideboard swaps, and matchup notes for myself. I will share those notes, and I can turn that into a primer while I'm at it perhaps.
I probably should look into the Meta in Massachusetts as well.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Anyway, I'm going to that Open myself and I am debating whether to rock Soldier Stompy or Legend MUD. Maybe we'll see each other there and I can critique your Soldier list.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Anyways...
Gideon's Intervention is a new great hate card that can deal with TNN. It's an upgraded Runed Halo for a couple more mana.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
In terms of dealing with TNN its obviously worse than RH, but it can do a lot more- e.g. naming Show and Tell or Tendrils against their respective decks. At 4 (effectively 5cc with Thalia) its a shame they did not add cycling to it, but yeah. I will be considering it in a few decks, it seems decent value for Nevermore/Halo combination, especially in a format where 4 mana is easily obtained.
"
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Went 2-3 at my local GPT for Vegas. 23 people there. Everyone one of my games went the distance.
4x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Preeminent Captain
4x Enlistment Officer
3x Recruiter of the Guard
2x Palace Jailer
2x Protector of the Crown
2x Captain of the Watch
2x Daru Warchief
1x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4x Chrome Mox
3x Suppression Field
1x Winter Orb
2x Armageddon
4x Ancient Tomb
4x Cavern of Souls
2x Karakas
7x Plains
1x Wasteland
2x Rest in Peace
2x Council's Judgment
2x Leonin Relic-Warder
2x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Shining Shoal
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Sanctum Prelate
2x Damping Matrix
Miracles 2-1. Played the Monastery Mentor version of Miracles. Won game 1, game 2 he was able to flood the board with Tokens, game 3 no Terminus and it was a pounding win. This deck went to top 4.
BR Reanimator 1-2. He got Christmas each and every single game. He also had Chancellor of the Annex in hand to start all 3 games, multiples on game 3. I was able to snag game 2 with a Shining Shoal and Protector of the Crown. He was totally taken off guard. This deck went to top 4.
Burn 1-2. Traditional mono red build. Game 1 was Chalice on 1, followed by Chalice on 2 - he was pissed. Called for Ancient Tomb to be banned! Games 2 and 3 were super close. Game 3 I was ahead and ready to win, and then he hit me with a Price of Progress to kill me.
Shardless BUG 1-2. Got him game 1, as he just didn't have the removal needed to stop me. Games 2 and 3 were again close but he just out valued me each game. He gave me some tips to beat him - he suggested sideboarding out - Chalice x4 and Suppression field x3 as he said they didn't disrupt him enough.
Pox 2-1. Ensnaring bridge was killer for him. That is how he won game 1. Armageddon and Leonin Relic-Warder were the keys to winning games 2 and 3.
Playing the deck, I think I want to make some changes. Add in 1 main board artifact hate - Leonin Relic-Warder, scooping to Ensnaring Bridge sucked. Also going to drop the Armageddon and go back up to 2 winter orb, and add a Thorn of Amethyst. Drop 2 plains and add 2 City of Traitors, drop 1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar and add 1 Loxodon Gatekeeper.
Too many times I was flooded with Legendary Draws of Thalia 1 and 2. SB I need to add a Containment Priest for sure.
Two more mana....4 v 2, I thought that was clear, sorry for the confusion.
In the scenario you were talking about - TNN- you pay two more for the what is effectively the same effect- nerfing TNN.
A minor point- Protection and damage prevention are the same regarding TNN, but not regarding damage spells- a Skull crack can nerf prevention effects for a turn, but Protection negates targeting of spells, so Pro lightning bolt is marginally better than preventing all damage from lightning bolt. Not really relevant in Legacy of course.
But the extra two mana looks pretty decent as its a Nevermore as well and is Decay proof as a big bonus. Promising.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I said it was Decay proof.
Charioteers can be cheated in or cost reduced or pick up bonuses, and with Thalia Intervention costs 5, but yes,they sort of do the same thing sometimes. Charioteers can actually gain life and deal damage of course, in terms of TNN attacking they fulfil the same role because you can deal damage with the dudes on the ground in a way that is hard to do when TNN is down currently. No reason to not play both in a lot of metas, Intervention is a flexible card and can cover a lot of bases, and Charioteers is always going to be better against decks like burn where stopping one card is not that good.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
@Astebel doesn't release until November though
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC