I recently made Top 4 at a Legacy $1k with the above list.
Here's what I faced:
Rd1: 2-1 vs. 12post: Winter Orb does the trick here, and Preeminent Captain is too fast a clock.
Rd2: 2-1 vs. Lands(!): Despite losing G1 to Glacial Chasm lock and then Marit Lage kill, in G2 and G3 Rest in Peace and Winter Orb both pull their weight, along with Thalia 2.0.
Rd3: 2-1 vs. Death'n'Taxes(!): Lost one game to a Sword of War and Peace but in the other two games guys like Fairgrounds Warden and Palace Jailer were amazing getting rid of his threats.
Rd4: 0-2 vs. Infect: Could have won G1 if I had untapped City of Traitors under Winter Orb so I could play Recruiter of the Guard -> fetch Jailer -> flash Jailer in on his Blighted Agent, but alas, I didn't. Tough matchup, but winnable.
Rd5: ID
Top8 Rd1: 2-1 vs. RW Painter: G1 he wins quickly with the combo, but in G2 and G3 I have copious hate (4 Damping Matrix, 3 Leonin Relic-Warder) that is too much for his deck to handle, along with the fast clock.
Top8 Rd2: 0-2 vs. Shardless BUG: This was the roughest match of the day. He just hit all of his abrupt decays and Lilis and ancestral visions and even my Rest in Peace from the board wasn't enough.
The deck feels strong. I don't know if it's strong enough to make a run at a really large tournament, but I definitely felt in control for most of the day. I mostly only lost games due to misplays on my own part, and except for the Top8 match against BUG Shardless I felt like even the games I lost I just barely lost. I like the way the deck plays and it's fun and exciting to play.
I'm really curious about Winter Orb instead of Suppression Field. I've been using SField for a long time because when I started creating this deck I remember not liking Winter Orb. Because of you I'm testing it again, but I still haven't played many matches. Sure it's good with Chrome Mox and Preeminent Captain, and Banneret helps out, but it effects the game much differently than SField. Why did you choose it over Sfield?
It's also good with the Thalia's I suppose. hmmm. Damping Matrix shuts down our Chrome Moxes unfortunately.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Damping Matrix does NOT shut down Chrome Moxen. It only affects non-mana abilities. There's nothing in the Soldier deck that is affected by it.
Suppression Field is straight garbage in my opinion, to be honest. It's ONLY ever good if you cast it Turn 1 on the play and you lock out fetchlands. Otherwise, if you play it Turn 2 and beyond, they usually have the ability to just fetch in response, or just straight-up pay 2 mana to get a fetchland and not really be heavily affected by it. And much later in the game it's completely useless.
Winter Orb, however, is very live from the early game to the late game. In fact, it's a great surprise tactic to play a Winter Orb mid-game after opponent has tapped out and expects to use his mana. Winter Orb is much better against Miracles in a grindy long game because in the long game, Suppression Field loses almost all of its relevance and ends up being a blank card.
In my experience S field is better against RUG Delver variants, Vial decks and Infect, Orb better against the plethora of fair midrange decks that do not use Vial, and both equally strong against Miracles. But both cards have been reasonable for me when I have played the deck. I would be happy to experiment with mixtures.
I was going to post on Matrix too, but it has been answered. Null Rod would shut them down, of course.
Yeah, I don't see this deck winning game 1 hardly at all vs. D&T without SField.
Cursed Totem might be good enough to use instead of Damping Matrix. There's isn't much downside to Damping Matrix, it only shuts down some Chrome Moxen, but it does cost 1 more mana. Or Linvala, Keeper of Silence!. IDK
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Rendroc - I stopped reading this thread entirely because of this post here. I only came back today because I noticed Mtg-Fan's post in TheSource and wanted to see what the discussion was like here.
You were completely dismissive of MTG-Fan's Winter Orb idea. You defended Suppression Field at the expense of considering an alternative viewpoint.
My point: in an effort to advance this deck, we should look to those who have tested and have reasoned arguments for cards that affect the strategy. Not just talking about our thoughts on "corner case" scenarios where cards are obviously good (as in Supression Field vs Damping Matrix in "these specific scenarios").
With that said - MGB, tell us more about your experience. What did you find were problematic situations with the deck? Any further testing?
And Rendroc - where has Suppression Field been lacking that you would consider a switch to Winter Orb?
Also - guys - MTG-Fan already mentioned this... Damping Matrix does NOT interact with Chrome Mox.
You have said Suppression Field is bad unless on turn 1. I disagree, most decks in Legacy use activated abilities, and Suppression Field heavily slows most decks, especially any deck running fetchlands. On turn 3 or 4, dropping a Suppression Field can still nix a Sensei's Devining Top, mess with Planeswalkers, and prevent them from playing Fetching. It's great vs sooo many cards!
Just in case you forgot, here are some cards it hoses from he best decks in the format:
Lands: Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Maze of Ith, Thespian Stage, Fetchlands D&T: Aether Vial, Stoneforge Mystic, All Equipment, Mother of Runes, Karakas Miracles: Fetchlands, Sensei's Devining Top, Jace, the Money Snatcher
Tax effects are better when stacked, and since we have two Thalias. That card has performed so well for me, especially in conjunction with the Thalias.
I haven't played the deck with the new Fairgrounds Warden, but I think that card is better than Palace Jailer because it is much safer to play, plus easier to cast and costs less. Honestly, I think this deck could get away with running 4 Thought-Knot Seer as the only non-soldier, but I could be wrong.
I will test your list and see if I can replace anything, it's looks basically the same as what I would play, but from my testing, Winter Orb is not made for this deck. We can't play it early because then we can't cast anything. I'd definitely play Suppression Field over Winter Orb.
The other card I will probably replace is Captain of the Watch because it's just too expensive and a win-more card. I'll probably replace it with a couple more Daru Warchief's. Hero of Bladehold is probably better than CotW as well. Unfortunately, it's not great with Preeminent Captain, because you don't get the tokens or the battle cry trigger when you sneak it into play with Captain. But it's an extremely powerful card nonetheless.
Also, since Flyers have been mentioned as having their benefits, the new Soldier Aerial Responder seems better than any of the flyers I've seen mentioned except Commander Eesha perhaps.
Suppression Field is sometimes lackluster if it's only being used to hinder Fetching and it's not resolved early. SField causes a lot of problems that Damping Matrix can't (i.e. Planeswalkers, Lands, and even the occasional Enchantment). MTGFan has four Matrices in the sideboard. SField is kind of like a mashup of Matrix and Orb. Obviously both Sfield and Orb can be much better than the other in certain situations. They both combo with Thalias; Chrome Mox feels a bit better in an Orb deck.
The Orb effect is very strong, and it's one of the reasons I used to play Hokori, Dust Drinker.
I'll make another post after I've played a lot more with Winter Orb.
The list I'm testing has an identical Mainboard except I have 1 less Fairgrounds Warden and 1 more Palace Jailer.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Since Winter Orb is actually pretty good, and excluding SField opens up the door to activated abilities (namely SFM), I thought I would build a deck around Thalia's and Orb. It's no longer Soldier but it's quite good and potentially better.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I think a lot of this comes down to the fact that you generally need disruption t1 against an unknown opponent- none of the disruption will catch every deck- try dropping Chalice for 1 against Eldrazi.
It does not matter what disruption it is, as long as your t1 helps slow the opponent most of the time. From T2 we lay more/the first threat or disruption, but t1 must disrupt most decks in some way.
The t1 disruption available is limited
Thalia I or II at a push if you hit sol land and mox
S field (which won't disrupt too much later on vs. a fair few decks unless combined with Geddon or Orb effects but does disrupt early)
Chalice
Orb (which does not disrupt whatsoever the actual t1 but disrupts thereafter once they hit two mana)
Post board you can add other hatebears to that list, canonist, containment priest etc.
If you know what they are on you could add Revoker to the potential main deck list if you run it main.
There are always scenarios in which these disruptive pieces do not disrupt- I have seen S field vs 19 mountain burn where it does nothing at all sadly and Winter Orb vs RUG and UR delver- the latter I tested extensively with a RUG player for hours and Orb did nothing. This is always going to be the case given the diversity of Legacy. I can't see the point of arguing that S field is terrible and Winter orb magnificent or vice versa. The adjectives are too strong- we have all played the deck, it is a solid core, and has lots of good matches. Arguing one card commonly used is "rubbish/garbage/etc." is simply ludicrous, we have all played with both in the 75 at some point, many of these cards turn up in lists, so whatever they are they are not rubbish, even if you feel they should not be included.
Finally you will have noticed that I did not respond about matrix/mox because it has been answered, and said so.
Since it's true that Winter Orb is not a very good turn 2 play. Sure it might be the best card to cast turn 2 just to get it on the board, but on the play especially, it's not going to have an effect immediately. I'm wondering if some combination of the both Orb and SField could be good. Since Winter Orb can be a great surprise midgame play, we could run some Soldier list with 4 SField and then 2 Winter Orb.
And yes @MTGFan, SField is not rubbish at all, and it's great vs many deck throughout the entire game. I've played it enough to know this. My question is just whether a list with Orb can be better than a list with SField.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
The problem with Suppression Field is that it doesn't actually *stop* anything. You do realize that they can pay a measly 2 mana to activate what they need to activate? Sometimes it slows them down, but most of the time it's just a minor annoyance.
The corner case scenarios that you're looking at where Sfield is awesome are:
- On the play you cast it, say, off a Chrome Mox and a land. Boom, their first fetchland is hosed.
- You *stack* SFields so that activations cost 4 or 6 mana to use. That's more than a minor annoyance.
The problem with looking at a card this way is that these scenarios are less than 10% of the scenarios that will arise in any given game. You usually *won't* have SField on the play Turn 1, and you generally won't always stack SFields. And even when you *do* stack them, you are literally using 2 or more cards to generate the effect. That's severe card disadvantage for you - you're trading card advantage for tempo advantage in a losing fashion. You don't want to *need* two copies of a card just to generate the effect you want. Winter Orb completely restricts them to 1-2 mana a turn all by itself - no extra copies needed. And it does it at any stage of the game. The difference to me is vast in my playtesting - Winter Orb is generally superior to SField when trying to slow down the mana production of midrange and control decks.
And when I want to "hose" a deck that relies heavily on activated abilities (Death and Taxes and such), I'd rather just flat-out *stop* their ability to use those things completely and not *hope* that they are slowed down by the mana tax of SField. Thus, I rely on 4 Damping Matrix post-board. Matrix just flat-out says "no" to Mother of Runes, AEther Vial, equipment, and Stoneforge Mystic. They have to remove the Matrix before they can even use their abilities, whereas with SField, all it takes is a healthy board full of lands on their end and they laugh at your pitiful attempts to tax their Mystics, Mother, and Vials.
Problem with Dampening Matrix is that you won't be often casting it on the draw against D n T if their deck works, because they Tax us with Port/Thalia/Wastelands and Revokers to switch off our Moxen. Of course their deck won't always work that way, but it can quite easily.
D matrix stops neither Port, Karakas or Wasteland, of course, but actually hates on equipment much better than SF.
Incidentally, I tend to beat D N T by flying over them of course, and tend to do it game 1 a lot anyway, so D N T is not an issue regardless of Orb/S Field.
I think we deal pretty well with card disadvantage.
Of course an ideal board position would have Orb and a couple of SFs...
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Some people like Ghostly Prison for creature matchups, especially vs Eldrazi, what about Windborn Muse? Since Ghostly might cost at least one more mana from Thalia effects, this is the same but on a 2/3 Flying body. Of course it is easier to get rid of. The Prison effect is definitely better with Winter Orb than Suppression Field.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Muse is pretty weak as a non soldier and 2/3 for 4. The way to beat creature matches is with more creatures, evasion, protection, removal etc. and board cards like Jitte.
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Is there a primer for Soldier Stompy anywhere? Quite new to the Legacy format and it would be nice to see what to do against certain top tier decks in the format. Most notably what to sideboard and when.
Recently played Food Chains and Storm. Was able to beat both decks 2-1 with limited knowledge of both our deck and theirs. The only for sure thing I did while playing the deck was to mulligan aggressively until I got disruption for turn 1.
Talking with the opponent afterwards they had said how crippling Chalice on 1, was to the matchups. Suppression Field also was fantasic vs the fetchlands.
Maybe I'll do a primer, I haven't done one before and I'm a bit of a perfectionist so it would take me a while, but I've written down a lot of notes on the deck already that I can use. Also I've been playing a lot less than before so maybe someone else would be better. drmarkb could do one I'm sure. You can take a look at my sideboard for options. I've put a lot of thought into it. I will say though, that usually the first cards to cut are Daru Warchief's and CotW, unless your Chalice or Thalia is crap then you can take those out (vs. D&T and Eldrazi). I try to keep in 1 Warchief and 1 CotW.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
@MTG-Fan, do you use Damping Matrix mostly for D&T? Is it worth including to just shut down Diving Top against Miracles? I seems like it could be really good in this deck, but unfortunately it's basically useless vs Eldrazi.
Can someone take a look at my sideboard and give me some input? I'd like to put in more Damping Matrix, but cuts or other changes would need to be made to make room. Because Matrix can't be tutored, it costs 1 more, is taxed by Thalia, and can't name Planeswalkers, and it can't name LED or Lotus Petal or Mox Diamond is it really better than Revoker? Sure Revoker dies to removal and Jitte but Flickerwisp is still a problem for Matrix and we have Chalice to protect Revoker. The only matchup that I would really want a Matrix over Revoker would be against D&T now that I analyze it harder. And that's still questionable. Now D&T is one of the harder matchups for this deck, so having a card that's mostly just there for D&T could be completely justified.
Mine looks like a much more normal competitive sideboard than MTG-Fan, that has lots of cards than can be used vs different decks, but I'm not dismissing the possibility that his four-of's could be great for countering the weak matchups this deck has, and overall improving its success in a tourny. Mine could be spread TOO thin.
Also, some notes on the never-ending competition of worthiness between SField and Winter Orb. SField stops Deathrite Shaman from activating abilities. This is huge, and Deathrite is strong against Winter Orb. I will go back to SField after a bit of testing with Orb,because I think it's much better, but maybe I'll try to fit a couple Winter Orb's in the sideboard if not the maindeck along with a Hokori, Dust Drinker. Since it's not a great play early, and it's ability is redundant, I'm think that having two in the maindeck by cutting a Warchief and maybe a Recruiter could be alright. This would not make our matchup against Eldrazi easier as Winter Orb is pretty ***** against Eye of Ugin, and for that it's like to have every bit of P&T we can get.
I'd also like including more Faerie Macabre. IMO it's the single best way to deal with Reanimator which is popular now, and is a fail-safe against turn one Reanimator wins. No one likes to lose turn 1 against Reanimator, and it happens a lot.
And one more question for this thread; if anyone has Thorn of Amethyst in the sideboard like myself, which matchups do you side it in against, besides Storm which is a no-brainer.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
So here's my list that's basically the same as MTG-Fan's because I think he did well with the numbers, but I've added Suppression Field because it's just much better IMO. Though a midgame Winter Orb can be brutal so I added two of them. I think that gives us a 25% chance of drawing a Winter Orb by turn 3 or 4, based on some probability charts I saw online, but I'm no mathematician. Also my sideboard is different I think and more fine-tuned. I may choose to go back to my old build with no Banneret, but with Orb it's slightly more appealing than before.
This one is better vs Show and Tell because we have 6 sources of the Fairgrounds Warden effect, including F-Warden, Jailer and Recruiter, and this effect is one of the few ways to deal with Emrakul. It's super strong vs S&T.
The only change I might make is +1 Jailer -1 Warden. Jailer is such a powerhouse, they even run it in D&T now. Definitely deserves more than 1 slot that MTG-Fan had.
One of the biggest reasons I think this list is worse than my other list with more Warchief's and 4x CotW is we have less creature power to deal with Eldrazi. That matchup seems even harder now, whereas before I could actually overpower them with Lords. Hopefully the bigger removal package will be enough.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Until the primer comes out or to help the primer along. Maybe we could look at some builds and sideboards that matchup well vs some of the Tier 1/1.5 decks.
Storm
Death and Taxes
Show and Tell
Eldrazi
Miracles
Infect
Elves
Stoneblade
Elves
any others you can think of.
Played this last night, still no nearer to solving the S field/Orb numbers.
Orb won me a game I was winning, and hurt me as much as my opponent in another. S field was great in one game (nice that it switched off DRS' mana ability, because according to the rules DRS' ability that produces mana is not a mana ability). In other games it felt like it did not matter which I had in hand, both would have been equally useful.
Still waiting for a soldier version of relic warder or some such....
Geddon from the board felt good.
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I think I've found the final version. I run 1 Orb and 1 Hokori, Dust Drinker in the mainbaird, giving me 4 sources of the Orb effect, including Recruiter. It's been working well. Also onyl have 1 Orb it the deck means not having to worry about have a dead draw, because it doesn't have a stacking effect like SField.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Small tourney at my local store. 5 rounds. Very new to the deck. Went 2-3.
R1: Shardless Bug 0-2. Was pretty tough on me.
Game 1: On Draw, Had a good early board but Languish wiped me out, then came the gorfs. 2 at 3/4 ate any
blockers I managed to play, and eventually 2 was just too many.
Game 2: Way closer, I didn't really know the Shardless Bug deck at all, just from the limited stuff he
played game 1. Sideboard: Out Bannerets, 2 Chalice and 1 Recruiter, In Rest in Peace, Selfless Squire
and Council's Judgement. Had Thalia 1 out on play and was going for Thalia 2 turn 2, but ate a Force
of Will. Then it was a back and forth war, but in the end Liliana and Leovold did me in.
R2: Burn 2-1. Game 1: On draw, Turn 1 Chalice, but no other white mana. Didn't draw a mox or white mana source for 8 turns.
Game 2: Out 2 bannerets, 4 suppression field. In, 2 Leylines, 2 Leonin Relic Warders, 2 Council's Judgment.
Leonin was the star in this game. Game was stalled, with an opposing Ensnaring Bridge, then
Recruiter to Leonin on Bridge, then swing for lethal.
Game 3: Followed same script, Recruiter to Leonin on his Eidolon, with a chalice on 1 on turn 3, and he could
not recover.
R3: Merfolk 0-2 Game 1: On Draw, grindy game going quite a few turns. Played a Palace Jailer early and it proved to
be pretty dumb as we both got cards from being the monarch. In the end True Name got me, being unblockable.
Game 2: Out Bannerets and 2 suppression fields, In, Council's Judgement and Sanctum Prelate. He was able to
get 3 True Names in play, and I couldn't find any of my sideboard cards. I was dumb here, should have brought
in Leylines too.
R4: Storm 1-2 Game 1: On draw. Turn 1 got out thalia 1. But it was removed and Storm went off a few plays later.
Game 2: Out bannerets, 1 recruiter, 1 Warchief, In Rest in Peace, Ethersworn Canonist, Sanctum Prelate
(mistake). Chalice on 1 with, P Captain turn 2, scoop.
Game 3: He nails me with 2 Dread of Nite right off the bat. I can't cast very much at all. I was able to
respond with Chalice on 0 and 1. I could hard cast a Captian of the Watch which was basically useless.
I needed a Daru Warchief to get out anything , but I boarded 1 out. He eventually went off.
R5 Burn 2-0 Game 1: On play, Suppression Field killed him game 1, and basic plains wasted his blood moon. P Captain turn
2 made for a quick game.
Game 2: Out bannerets, In Leyline. Chalice on 1, developed excellent board state with Enlistment Officer and
P Captain.
Overall it was I enjoyed playing the deck. Bunch of mistakes, poor sideboard choices contributed to losses.
From playing the deck, I would make the following changes.
Out 2x Ballyrush Bannerets in the main as I boarded them out every single time.
1x Recruiter of the Guard. 4 seemed like too many I usually pitched a Recruiter under Chrome Mox in an opening hand and kept
every card that offered disruption.
2x Phryexian Revokers in the sideboard. Suppression Field was good against any activated abilities I encountered. Plus my
limited knowledge of opposing decks makes them too difficult to cast with certainty.
In: Aegis of the Gods. Need some hexproof. Can be tutored and cheated in and works well with Enlistment Officer. Kor Skyfisher, flying, works well with Enlistment Officer and can be cheated. Maybe 1 more Fairgrounds Warden too.
Revokers might have given you a slow clock vs Storm as they are unaffected by Dread- you lay them and say Lions Eye Diamond, which hurts them. Not all Storm decks run Dread in the board, and they certainly don't often go Dread/Dread. Revokers are great vs D N T and some other decks too (eg those running RIP/Helm combos or Painter)- you need to learn what to name but they will win you matches.
Burn can be a pain with the 2cc Smash to Smithereens able to eat Chalice and do 3 to boot- Price of Progress, Flame Rift, Eidolon and Sulfuric Vortex also beat Leyline and Chalice on 1, so I would be happy with 2 wins v burn from 2, especially as we do a lot of Tomb damage to ourselves
I am not sure why Aegis would be that useful based on the matches you mention- hexproof from Leylines is one thing, but Hexproof from a fragile 2/1 is not as powerful, and you beat the 2 Burn decks anyway- it will just eb a bolt rod. Storm decks all have a method beyond bounce/removal of beating Leylines- normally Empty The Warrens, whilst BUG has far more difficulty with a t0 Leyline hitting any targetted discard than it does with a t1 or 2 2/1 who will be Decayed when required- e.g. when they are about to Lilly ultimate.
I am desperately trying to work out your Merfolk strategy- they run Mutavault, Vial, Jitte x1-2 - 10 effects- and in the odd rogue list maybe a wasteland or two, yet you board out Suppression Field which slows them down. Prelate on any number other than one will hurt you as much as them, and they can vial to avoid casting their dudes, and Prelate can't hit before t2, by which time Vial is likely down, yet you bring it in? Prelate is really for matches where the enemy has a one card you must not let hit or where all their eggs are in one basket. Merfolk is neither. You then say you want Leylines (!!!!) but they have no targetted effects save the odd rogue list running a Jace in the main or board (True Name Nemesis does not target- the template asks you to choose a player as it enters, but does not use the phrase "target player" as it would do if it targetted.).
If you want a card to deal with TNN you have 3 choices- Runed Halo, Holy Light (poor vs Merfolk due to Lords) and Council's Judegment- it is that or race it with flying lifelink critters, which you do not run.
Council's Judgment deals with TNN and is one of the best answer-all cards printed.
I've been working on Soldiers a long time now @astebel, I've encountered the problems you're encountering and I've tested the cards you're considering. I'll save you the trouble. I recommend you use this list.
Notes: the problem with Fairgounds Warden is it's just not a powerful enough card on it's own. Jailer is much more powerful for 1 mana, and we will win more games by resolving one. I do like having Banneret sometimes vs Wasteland decks mostly as it provides some insurance vs Wasteland, which is maybe the single best card vs Stompy decks. I maybe find room for two of them. What this deck wants most, is a Soldier creature with a Suppression Field effect. Like maybe a Frontline Suppressor, a 2/2 for 2W that reads. "All activated abilities cost 1 more unless they are are mana abilities".
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Revokers might have given you a slow clock vs Storm as they are unaffected by Dread- you lay them and say Lions Eye Diamond, which hurts them. Not all Storm decks run Dread in the board, and they certainly don't often go Dread/Dread. Revokers are great vs D N T and some other decks too (eg those running RIP/Helm combos or Painter)- you need to learn what to name but they will win you matches.
Burn can be a pain with the 2cc Smash to Smithereens able to eat Chalice and do 3 to boot- Price of Progress, Flame Rift, Eidolon and Sulfuric Vortex also beat Leyline and Chalice on 1, so I would be happy with 2 wins v burn from 2, especially as we do a lot of Tomb damage to ourselves
I am not sure why Aegis would be that useful based on the matches you mention- hexproof from Leylines is one thing, but Hexproof from a fragile 2/1 is not as powerful, and you beat the 2 Burn decks anyway- it will just eb a bolt rod. Storm decks all have a method beyond bounce/removal of beating Leylines- normally Empty The Warrens, whilst BUG has far more difficulty with a t0 Leyline hitting any targetted discard than it does with a t1 or 2 2/1 who will be Decayed when required- e.g. when they are about to Lilly ultimate.
I am desperately trying to work out your Merfolk strategy- they run Mutavault, Vial, Jitte x1-2 - 10 effects- and in the odd rogue list maybe a wasteland or two, yet you board out Suppression Field which slows them down. Prelate on any number other than one will hurt you as much as them, and they can vial to avoid casting their dudes, and Prelate can't hit before t2, by which time Vial is likely down, yet you bring it in? Prelate is really for matches where the enemy has a one card you must not let hit or where all their eggs are in one basket. Merfolk is neither. You then say you want Leylines (!!!!) but they have no targetted effects save the odd rogue list running a Jace in the main or board (True Name Nemesis does not target- the template asks you to choose a player as it enters, but does not use the phrase "target player" as it would do if it targetted.).
If you want a card to deal with TNN you have 3 choices- Runed Halo, Holy Light (poor vs Merfolk due to Lords) and Council's Judegment- it is that or race it with flying lifelink critters, which you do not run.
Thank you for the input. I have made notes for future matchups based on your suggestions.
As for Merfolk and Aegis, I totally read the TNN card incorrectly, thinking it targeted. I also screwed up with Santum Prelate thinkin it included creatures.
I do want to remove the Bannerets. Ariel Reponder?
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Here's what I faced:
Rd1: 2-1 vs. 12post: Winter Orb does the trick here, and Preeminent Captain is too fast a clock.
Rd2: 2-1 vs. Lands(!): Despite losing G1 to Glacial Chasm lock and then Marit Lage kill, in G2 and G3 Rest in Peace and Winter Orb both pull their weight, along with Thalia 2.0.
Rd3: 2-1 vs. Death'n'Taxes(!): Lost one game to a Sword of War and Peace but in the other two games guys like Fairgrounds Warden and Palace Jailer were amazing getting rid of his threats.
Rd4: 0-2 vs. Infect: Could have won G1 if I had untapped City of Traitors under Winter Orb so I could play Recruiter of the Guard -> fetch Jailer -> flash Jailer in on his Blighted Agent, but alas, I didn't. Tough matchup, but winnable.
Rd5: ID
Top8 Rd1: 2-1 vs. RW Painter: G1 he wins quickly with the combo, but in G2 and G3 I have copious hate (4 Damping Matrix, 3 Leonin Relic-Warder) that is too much for his deck to handle, along with the fast clock.
Top8 Rd2: 0-2 vs. Shardless BUG: This was the roughest match of the day. He just hit all of his abrupt decays and Lilis and ancestral visions and even my Rest in Peace from the board wasn't enough.
The deck feels strong. I don't know if it's strong enough to make a run at a really large tournament, but I definitely felt in control for most of the day. I mostly only lost games due to misplays on my own part, and except for the Top8 match against BUG Shardless I felt like even the games I lost I just barely lost. I like the way the deck plays and it's fun and exciting to play.
It's also good with the Thalia's I suppose. hmmm. Damping Matrix shuts down our Chrome Moxes unfortunately.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Suppression Field is straight garbage in my opinion, to be honest. It's ONLY ever good if you cast it Turn 1 on the play and you lock out fetchlands. Otherwise, if you play it Turn 2 and beyond, they usually have the ability to just fetch in response, or just straight-up pay 2 mana to get a fetchland and not really be heavily affected by it. And much later in the game it's completely useless.
Winter Orb, however, is very live from the early game to the late game. In fact, it's a great surprise tactic to play a Winter Orb mid-game after opponent has tapped out and expects to use his mana. Winter Orb is much better against Miracles in a grindy long game because in the long game, Suppression Field loses almost all of its relevance and ends up being a blank card.
I was going to post on Matrix too, but it has been answered. Null Rod would shut them down, of course.
Cursed Totem might be good enough to use instead of Damping Matrix. There's isn't much downside to Damping Matrix, it only shuts down some Chrome Moxen, but it does cost 1 more mana. Or Linvala, Keeper of Silence!. IDK
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
You were completely dismissive of MTG-Fan's Winter Orb idea. You defended Suppression Field at the expense of considering an alternative viewpoint.
My point: in an effort to advance this deck, we should look to those who have tested and have reasoned arguments for cards that affect the strategy. Not just talking about our thoughts on "corner case" scenarios where cards are obviously good (as in Supression Field vs Damping Matrix in "these specific scenarios").
With that said - MGB, tell us more about your experience. What did you find were problematic situations with the deck? Any further testing?
And Rendroc - where has Suppression Field been lacking that you would consider a switch to Winter Orb?
Also - guys - MTG-Fan already mentioned this... Damping Matrix does NOT interact with Chrome Mox.
The Orb effect is very strong, and it's one of the reasons I used to play Hokori, Dust Drinker.
I'll make another post after I've played a lot more with Winter Orb.
The list I'm testing has an identical Mainboard except I have 1 less Fairgrounds Warden and 1 more Palace Jailer.
My sideboard is the same as the SField version.
// 15 Sideboard
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Since it's a different deck I'll post the link.
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/legacy-type-1-5/developing-legacy/769379-thalia-orb-stompy
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
It does not matter what disruption it is, as long as your t1 helps slow the opponent most of the time. From T2 we lay more/the first threat or disruption, but t1 must disrupt most decks in some way.
The t1 disruption available is limited
Thalia I or II at a push if you hit sol land and mox
S field (which won't disrupt too much later on vs. a fair few decks unless combined with Geddon or Orb effects but does disrupt early)
Chalice
Orb (which does not disrupt whatsoever the actual t1 but disrupts thereafter once they hit two mana)
Post board you can add other hatebears to that list, canonist, containment priest etc.
If you know what they are on you could add Revoker to the potential main deck list if you run it main.
There are always scenarios in which these disruptive pieces do not disrupt- I have seen S field vs 19 mountain burn where it does nothing at all sadly and Winter Orb vs RUG and UR delver- the latter I tested extensively with a RUG player for hours and Orb did nothing. This is always going to be the case given the diversity of Legacy. I can't see the point of arguing that S field is terrible and Winter orb magnificent or vice versa. The adjectives are too strong- we have all played the deck, it is a solid core, and has lots of good matches. Arguing one card commonly used is "rubbish/garbage/etc." is simply ludicrous, we have all played with both in the 75 at some point, many of these cards turn up in lists, so whatever they are they are not rubbish, even if you feel they should not be included.
Finally you will have noticed that I did not respond about matrix/mox because it has been answered, and said so.
This was my acknowledgement that MTG Fan is correct- there is no interaction between the Moxen, which can only be shut down by Null Rod or Revokers.
And yes @MTGFan, SField is not rubbish at all, and it's great vs many deck throughout the entire game. I've played it enough to know this. My question is just whether a list with Orb can be better than a list with SField.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
The corner case scenarios that you're looking at where Sfield is awesome are:
- On the play you cast it, say, off a Chrome Mox and a land. Boom, their first fetchland is hosed.
- You *stack* SFields so that activations cost 4 or 6 mana to use. That's more than a minor annoyance.
The problem with looking at a card this way is that these scenarios are less than 10% of the scenarios that will arise in any given game. You usually *won't* have SField on the play Turn 1, and you generally won't always stack SFields. And even when you *do* stack them, you are literally using 2 or more cards to generate the effect. That's severe card disadvantage for you - you're trading card advantage for tempo advantage in a losing fashion. You don't want to *need* two copies of a card just to generate the effect you want. Winter Orb completely restricts them to 1-2 mana a turn all by itself - no extra copies needed. And it does it at any stage of the game. The difference to me is vast in my playtesting - Winter Orb is generally superior to SField when trying to slow down the mana production of midrange and control decks.
And when I want to "hose" a deck that relies heavily on activated abilities (Death and Taxes and such), I'd rather just flat-out *stop* their ability to use those things completely and not *hope* that they are slowed down by the mana tax of SField. Thus, I rely on 4 Damping Matrix post-board. Matrix just flat-out says "no" to Mother of Runes, AEther Vial, equipment, and Stoneforge Mystic. They have to remove the Matrix before they can even use their abilities, whereas with SField, all it takes is a healthy board full of lands on their end and they laugh at your pitiful attempts to tax their Mystics, Mother, and Vials.
D matrix stops neither Port, Karakas or Wasteland, of course, but actually hates on equipment much better than SF.
Incidentally, I tend to beat D N T by flying over them of course, and tend to do it game 1 a lot anyway, so D N T is not an issue regardless of Orb/S Field.
I think we deal pretty well with card disadvantage.
Of course an ideal board position would have Orb and a couple of SFs...
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Recently played Food Chains and Storm. Was able to beat both decks 2-1 with limited knowledge of both our deck and theirs. The only for sure thing I did while playing the deck was to mulligan aggressively until I got disruption for turn 1.
Talking with the opponent afterwards they had said how crippling Chalice on 1, was to the matchups. Suppression Field also was fantasic vs the fetchlands.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Can someone take a look at my sideboard and give me some input? I'd like to put in more Damping Matrix, but cuts or other changes would need to be made to make room. Because Matrix can't be tutored, it costs 1 more, is taxed by Thalia, and can't name Planeswalkers, and it can't name LED or Lotus Petal or Mox Diamond is it really better than Revoker? Sure Revoker dies to removal and Jitte but Flickerwisp is still a problem for Matrix and we have Chalice to protect Revoker. The only matchup that I would really want a Matrix over Revoker would be against D&T now that I analyze it harder. And that's still questionable. Now D&T is one of the harder matchups for this deck, so having a card that's mostly just there for D&T could be completely justified.
Mine looks like a much more normal competitive sideboard than MTG-Fan, that has lots of cards than can be used vs different decks, but I'm not dismissing the possibility that his four-of's could be great for countering the weak matchups this deck has, and overall improving its success in a tourny. Mine could be spread TOO thin.
Also, some notes on the never-ending competition of worthiness between SField and Winter Orb. SField stops Deathrite Shaman from activating abilities. This is huge, and Deathrite is strong against Winter Orb. I will go back to SField after a bit of testing with Orb,because I think it's much better, but maybe I'll try to fit a couple Winter Orb's in the sideboard if not the maindeck along with a Hokori, Dust Drinker. Since it's not a great play early, and it's ability is redundant, I'm think that having two in the maindeck by cutting a Warchief and maybe a Recruiter could be alright. This would not make our matchup against Eldrazi easier as Winter Orb is pretty ***** against Eye of Ugin, and for that it's like to have every bit of P&T we can get.
I'd also like including more Faerie Macabre. IMO it's the single best way to deal with Reanimator which is popular now, and is a fail-safe against turn one Reanimator wins. No one likes to lose turn 1 against Reanimator, and it happens a lot.
And one more question for this thread; if anyone has Thorn of Amethyst in the sideboard like myself, which matchups do you side it in against, besides Storm which is a no-brainer.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
This one is better vs Show and Tell because we have 6 sources of the Fairgrounds Warden effect, including F-Warden, Jailer and Recruiter, and this effect is one of the few ways to deal with Emrakul. It's super strong vs S&T.
// 60 Maindeck
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
2 Winter Orb
// 28 Creature
4 Preeminent Captain
3 Enlistment Officer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Palace Jailer
3 Ballyrush Banneret
1 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Daru Warchief
3 Fairgrounds Warden
3 Captain of the Watch
4 Suppression Field
// 18 Land
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
5 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
The only change I might make is +1 Jailer -1 Warden. Jailer is such a powerhouse, they even run it in D&T now. Definitely deserves more than 1 slot that MTG-Fan had.
One of the biggest reasons I think this list is worse than my other list with more Warchief's and 4x CotW is we have less creature power to deal with Eldrazi. That matchup seems even harder now, whereas before I could actually overpower them with Lords. Hopefully the bigger removal package will be enough.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Storm
Death and Taxes
Show and Tell
Eldrazi
Miracles
Infect
Elves
Stoneblade
Elves
any others you can think of.
Orb won me a game I was winning, and hurt me as much as my opponent in another. S field was great in one game (nice that it switched off DRS' mana ability, because according to the rules DRS' ability that produces mana is not a mana ability). In other games it felt like it did not matter which I had in hand, both would have been equally useful.
Still waiting for a soldier version of relic warder or some such....
Geddon from the board felt good.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
// 60 Maindeck
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
// 4 Enchantment
4 Suppression Field
// 30 Creature
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Palace Jailer
2 Ballyrush Banneret
3 Daru Warchief
1 Fairgrounds Warden
2 Captain of the Watch
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
9 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
1 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Rest In Peace
2 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Council's Judgement
1 Selfless Squire
Small tourney at my local store. 5 rounds. Very new to the deck. Went 2-3.
R1: Shardless Bug 0-2. Was pretty tough on me.
Game 1: On Draw, Had a good early board but Languish wiped me out, then came the gorfs. 2 at 3/4 ate any
blockers I managed to play, and eventually 2 was just too many.
Game 2: Way closer, I didn't really know the Shardless Bug deck at all, just from the limited stuff he
played game 1. Sideboard: Out Bannerets, 2 Chalice and 1 Recruiter, In Rest in Peace, Selfless Squire
and Council's Judgement. Had Thalia 1 out on play and was going for Thalia 2 turn 2, but ate a Force
of Will. Then it was a back and forth war, but in the end Liliana and Leovold did me in.
R2: Burn 2-1. Game 1: On draw, Turn 1 Chalice, but no other white mana. Didn't draw a mox or white mana source for 8 turns.
Game 2: Out 2 bannerets, 4 suppression field. In, 2 Leylines, 2 Leonin Relic Warders, 2 Council's Judgment.
Leonin was the star in this game. Game was stalled, with an opposing Ensnaring Bridge, then
Recruiter to Leonin on Bridge, then swing for lethal.
Game 3: Followed same script, Recruiter to Leonin on his Eidolon, with a chalice on 1 on turn 3, and he could
not recover.
R3: Merfolk 0-2 Game 1: On Draw, grindy game going quite a few turns. Played a Palace Jailer early and it proved to
be pretty dumb as we both got cards from being the monarch. In the end True Name got me, being unblockable.
Game 2: Out Bannerets and 2 suppression fields, In, Council's Judgement and Sanctum Prelate. He was able to
get 3 True Names in play, and I couldn't find any of my sideboard cards. I was dumb here, should have brought
in Leylines too.
R4: Storm 1-2 Game 1: On draw. Turn 1 got out thalia 1. But it was removed and Storm went off a few plays later.
Game 2: Out bannerets, 1 recruiter, 1 Warchief, In Rest in Peace, Ethersworn Canonist, Sanctum Prelate
(mistake). Chalice on 1 with, P Captain turn 2, scoop.
Game 3: He nails me with 2 Dread of Nite right off the bat. I can't cast very much at all. I was able to
respond with Chalice on 0 and 1. I could hard cast a Captian of the Watch which was basically useless.
I needed a Daru Warchief to get out anything , but I boarded 1 out. He eventually went off.
R5 Burn 2-0 Game 1: On play, Suppression Field killed him game 1, and basic plains wasted his blood moon. P Captain turn
2 made for a quick game.
Game 2: Out bannerets, In Leyline. Chalice on 1, developed excellent board state with Enlistment Officer and
P Captain.
Overall it was I enjoyed playing the deck. Bunch of mistakes, poor sideboard choices contributed to losses.
From playing the deck, I would make the following changes.
Out 2x Ballyrush Bannerets in the main as I boarded them out every single time.
1x Recruiter of the Guard. 4 seemed like too many I usually pitched a Recruiter under Chrome Mox in an opening hand and kept
every card that offered disruption.
2x Phryexian Revokers in the sideboard. Suppression Field was good against any activated abilities I encountered. Plus my
limited knowledge of opposing decks makes them too difficult to cast with certainty.
In: Aegis of the Gods. Need some hexproof. Can be tutored and cheated in and works well with Enlistment Officer. Kor Skyfisher, flying, works well with Enlistment Officer and can be cheated. Maybe 1 more Fairgrounds Warden too.
Burn can be a pain with the 2cc Smash to Smithereens able to eat Chalice and do 3 to boot- Price of Progress, Flame Rift, Eidolon and Sulfuric Vortex also beat Leyline and Chalice on 1, so I would be happy with 2 wins v burn from 2, especially as we do a lot of Tomb damage to ourselves
I am not sure why Aegis would be that useful based on the matches you mention- hexproof from Leylines is one thing, but Hexproof from a fragile 2/1 is not as powerful, and you beat the 2 Burn decks anyway- it will just eb a bolt rod. Storm decks all have a method beyond bounce/removal of beating Leylines- normally Empty The Warrens, whilst BUG has far more difficulty with a t0 Leyline hitting any targetted discard than it does with a t1 or 2 2/1 who will be Decayed when required- e.g. when they are about to Lilly ultimate.
I am desperately trying to work out your Merfolk strategy- they run Mutavault, Vial, Jitte x1-2 - 10 effects- and in the odd rogue list maybe a wasteland or two, yet you board out Suppression Field which slows them down. Prelate on any number other than one will hurt you as much as them, and they can vial to avoid casting their dudes, and Prelate can't hit before t2, by which time Vial is likely down, yet you bring it in? Prelate is really for matches where the enemy has a one card you must not let hit or where all their eggs are in one basket. Merfolk is neither. You then say you want Leylines (!!!!) but they have no targetted effects save the odd rogue list running a Jace in the main or board (True Name Nemesis does not target- the template asks you to choose a player as it enters, but does not use the phrase "target player" as it would do if it targetted.).
If you want a card to deal with TNN you have 3 choices- Runed Halo, Holy Light (poor vs Merfolk due to Lords) and Council's Judegment- it is that or race it with flying lifelink critters, which you do not run.
I've been working on Soldiers a long time now @astebel, I've encountered the problems you're encountering and I've tested the cards you're considering. I'll save you the trouble. I recommend you use this list.
// 10 Artifact
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
2 Winter Orb
// 28 Creature
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Palace Jailer
4 Captain of the Watch
2 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Daru Warchief
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker
4 Suppression Field
// 18 Land
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
5 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Damping Matrix
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Containment Priest
1 Sanctum Prelate
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Selfless Squire
1 Rest in Peace
2 Holy Light
1 Blessed Alliance
2 Council's Judgment
Notes: the problem with Fairgounds Warden is it's just not a powerful enough card on it's own. Jailer is much more powerful for 1 mana, and we will win more games by resolving one. I do like having Banneret sometimes vs Wasteland decks mostly as it provides some insurance vs Wasteland, which is maybe the single best card vs Stompy decks. I maybe find room for two of them. What this deck wants most, is a Soldier creature with a Suppression Field effect. Like maybe a Frontline Suppressor, a 2/2 for 2W that reads. "All activated abilities cost 1 more unless they are are mana abilities".
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Thank you for the input. I have made notes for future matchups based on your suggestions.
As for Merfolk and Aegis, I totally read the TNN card incorrectly, thinking it targeted. I also screwed up with Santum Prelate thinkin it included creatures.
I do want to remove the Bannerets. Ariel Reponder?