I don't think her deputy is needed, but it would depend on your meta.
A lot of versions of this deck have a common core of Chalice, Thalia, Preeminent, Captains, Enlistment Officer Moxen and a restrictive or utility element like Winter orb, o rings or Suppression Field, but the rest depends on your meta, and that is where playing TL or not will make sense. As it is this deck normally beats Miracles, thanks to uncounterables, a big clock, chalice and a metric ton of value. Most other decks demand other cards be included that skew the deck that may interfere with the human count- Warchief is very much optional and Captains often end up at just 3 copies in the few lists I have seen over the years. I would want mid twenties for a human count, but I think if captain is down you are winning anyway.
8 Thalia seems to be where it is at. With that many legendaries, way more Karakas would be needed. However, the nonbos with Suppression Field seem way too obvious to overlook. I feel like we can shy away from Ballyrush and possibly stuff like the fridge Aven Riftwatcher now. 8 Thalia seems the best.
Suppression Field is too good not to play right now. It punishes lots of activated abilities, including fetches and the like. However it nonbos with stuff like our own Karakas-es and, if we decide to play them, Wasteland. I reckon that forgoing Suppression Field will open us up to playing more creatures and perhaps the full grip of Karakas. With this many legendaries now, we can constantly save them. Plus the 4 Karakas-es and heavy denial packages also opens the option to play something like Mangara of Corondor. However, we don't have nearly as many tricks as Death and Taxes has to abuse him. More legendaries also opens up Castle as an other way to protect our Thalias.
Think of Thalia as our Blood Moon and Magus of the Moons. I think 8 seems to be the right number--any threat under Chalice+lock piece is a serious clock if not dealt with.
Well I think IS is unplayable. We play Thalia meaning it is a 4 cc minimum, and we generate huge numbers of dudes. It brings them back if they are killed. How many decks kill dudes like that?
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Which white/blue deck? Miracles? That uses Terminus..... there are not many other decks that pack it, even in a format as wide open as Legacy.
The answer to wrath is the same as ever- play around it. I get the impression that you might not be that experienced at playing Legacy Mtg against control decks packing board wipes?
Our anti-wrath cards is our friendly 4 mana enlistment officer- these are the cards that replace the one or two cards lost when Wrath hits. Whenever a Wrath effect is cast you will lose card advantage, we have often uncounterable Enlistment officers (thanks to Cavern) to get that back. When you do play your dudes you need to ask yourself- what happens if they board wipe? There is no need to commit too many men to the board- two men in our deck - eg a new and old Thalia - will kill them in four turns. You hold the other cards back in hand, knowing that they come down post wipe and they need to wipe again. Your Karakas can also bounce a Legendary soldier back, minimising card disadvantage when they do wipe. In short you need to make sure Wrath reads "pay four mana, destroy 1/2 cards"- if it is destroying 4 real cards you are playing it wrong. Our deck can be fast, but it is more about disruption + dudes, like Death and Taxes.
A single captain of the watch, for example- is probably 2 turns of hitting before they die. Once he is down keep all the other cards back in hand. If you already have 3 dudes on the table the captain should not be laid unless he wins the game there and then. Obviously with Preeminent Captain the Captain OTW can come in t2 (where thy take 6 damage) and you only need a Thalia or Suppression Field type effect to buy enough time for those cards to complete the job, so it is not a hard and fast rule.
Either way you do not beat wrath that way. A Selfless Spirit type effect might work in some lists, but I personally have never lost to decks packing Wrath effects- we prey on them. You might want to post your list here- it may be you run too many cheap dudes.........
You also need to make sure you are taking the right hands and have a decent mana ratio.
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Well to be honest two headed giant decks are not really what these fora are for- decks like Chalice stompy are designed to slow a single opponent down and deal twenty damage...you would get the same problem with tempo decks like RUG.
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I finally got round to testing Thalia II
I have been prioritising working on Humility-Stax and Stasis for the past couple of months, most of my other decks are pretty standard lists, or and I am currently pretty happy with them. That leaves me some time to investigate how Thalia works in the Solider Chalice Stompy shell. I am not sure if Thalia will end up in new D n T lists, but I guess it will do as a 2/3 of. I will leave that to others to figure out what the new core is.
First thing I have to say is I only tested for a couple of hours, but I think the card is a 4 of. The reason is whereas a D N T shell can put it into play t3, we can get it t1 or 2, and the effect is disproportionately more powerful early in the game.
Having 4 x 2 legendary dudes might open us up a little to dead cards, but the deck is a Chrome Mox deck, and it is also a Karakas deck (I think 2 or 3 copies is not unreasonable, although you can also make the argument for Eiganjo castle).
First strike is exceptionally important to Thalia. With the other Thalia you get a defensive line that eats Eldrazi, for example. That is a significant upgrade on Field Marshall in the same slot defensively. I did some specific testing on the draw against an Eldrazi build and that situation came up a lot. Against most decks of course Stompy is the aggressor regardless of being on the play or draw.
In that respect how dsirupting is Thalia? Answer- it is the nuts against fetch heavy decks, and has to be dealt with- with Preeminent, Thalia and Thalia 2 that is now 12 critters that must be dealt with if they land early doors- Preeminent can lead to free Enlistments or Captain of the Watches on t2, and can bury the opponent under a wealth of aggro and card advantage- we all know that. Thalia is up there with it for its ability to inhibit enemy game plans, and provides a decent clock.
So what gives?
I think mana is a big issue in Stompy lists- the majority of lists I see are often mana light and hope to either Preeminent stuff in or Bayonet cost reduce, really skimping on lands. I have felt for a while that this leads to too many mulligans, and that a higher land build allowing does not make the deck less explosive but enables more plodding hands to be taken more often- that is more attractive now those regular acceleration free hands can include the more disruptive t2 Thalia T3 Thalia II play. Thalia helps a here in that it gives even more cause to drop the cost reducer- a t2 or 3 Cavern of Souls dropping into Thalia Heretic Cathar is probably a better and more threatening play against most top decks than the ability of the cost reducer to drop in t3 or t4 Captain of the Watches.
That said I had steered away from cost reduction for a while, in favour of a couple more utility lands than in regular builds, so how did I get it in? The answer for me was I hit one of my disruption slots- where I use Revokers over Suppression Fields, which are in the side. Incidentally S Field is still a great card of course, but with Thalia nerfing fetchland decks I feel that S F is more of a board card for specific matches. I then nibbled away at Field Marshall, going to just two- he has always been on the more underwhelming side of the deck.
I think it is important to maintain some level of flyers in the deck- they cannot be cut. Those first strikers can repel ground based blockers such as Eldrazi or Batterskull Tokens easily. Flyers also give us some life gain with some Charioteers, essential for burn and fast delver matches, whilst Esher and a Gustcloak complete the set of flyers that look like unplayable chaff in any other context and must be read twice with incredulity by all opponents.
Back to Thalia- imagine RUG or RU delver a moment- Thalia's impact on their mana base is ridiculous, and thus she will end up eating a bolt or they will get shafted and lose. Their counterspells for her won't be so effective due to Cavern, so as an aggressive Delver player I would be actively seeking to hold removal back for her, more so than for Thalia I even. That sounds a lot worse when Preeminent and Thalia I are also in the deck.
Where I think Thalia will have minimal impact is against decks such as some Prison decks, especially those running Humility and Moat. Fortunately these are few and far between, very much a lost art. Miracles game two being is the the most common occurrence of Moat before you get to certain Enchantress sideboards which run Humility and sometimes Moat. Since game 1 against Miracles is one of the more favourable for Solider Stompy, I am not too worried. Few Stax players exist anymore, and equally uncommon Parfait is the only other deck that runs main deck Humility. Since this is the only deck that can t1 a new Thalia, I think bright times are ahead.....
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And so it begins.
Full on Supp field version too.
I still don't like the cost reducer aspect- I would prefer some utility soldier flyers there.
EDIT I will be looking to run the deck, probably with 3-4 S Field main rather than in the side as I currently have them.
Grabs Daru Warchief and field marshal if you need a lord and sideboard containment priest, intrepid heros or revokers if you run them. The 1/1 body tacked on to the tutor may be worth it, we can use any card advantage we can get. But boy if it hit enlistment officer.
Don't know how good he is, but he is first turn here sometimes, which counts for a lot.
I don't like Banneret, and new cars like Thalia and this make me feel there is not enough room for our Banneret who was decent in earlier versions post Thalia 1 but now I feel is not up to it. It is not as if we are short on mana- we use Moxen and Sol lands, as well as Pre-eminents- often cost reduction is too late. To be honest even Warchief (who is always good) does not make my list nowadays.
Jailer also has to be worth a look.
EDIT
I don't really rate Flickerwisp. I would rather play a flying soldier if I am worried about Moat-
Esha is good against everything critter based bar a hasty Emrakul and it can be Karakas'ed.
Charioteers have lifelink and >3 toughness for burn and aggro matches
Gustcloaks are solid again body-wise and again help vs opposing Jitte/Batterskulled dudes.
None are stellar but all are good in the context of their nature as Soldiers- where they are free (card wise) due to Officers or Free (mana wise) due to Pre-eminents.
Between Recruiter, Palace Jailer, and Sanctum Prelate, Soldiers just got a heaping helping of powerful tools to improve the deck.
Basically, Recruiter of the Guard is a 4-of now, and we can play less of other stuff like Daru Warchief (down to a 3-of) and play more tutor targets both maindeck and in the sideboard. This guy can get Containment Priest, Ethersworn Canonist, Palace Jailer (if you need to remove a creature or fight show and tell), Peacekeeper (against fast aggro decks - then you stop paying his upkeep when you build up your forces to alpha strike), and more.
Palace Jailer is simply the removal spell that this deck needed, AND it essentially cantrips! You might even get to draw multiple cards off this guy!
Sanctum Prelate is Chalice of the Void on a creature, but even better! You can essentially name whatever spell you want to stop with this thing. Already have Chalice @ 1 out in play against Miracles? Name "6" and lock him out of Terminus and your creatures essentially can't die for the rest of the game! I'm thinking the deck will be playing maybe even as many as 4 Sanctum Prelate MD instead of Suppression Field / Winter Orb. You're essentially now playing 8 Chalice of the Void MD, or even 12 if you consider that Recruiter of the Guard can get Prelate as well. Sick.
I am not quite as sold here. I loaned the deck out the other day, and besides handing me my backside on a plate, it is clear that old and new Thalia are the nuts.
The value train of top 4 is still there, Captain of the Watch still combos with Pre-eminent, Thalia is still sweet, Chalice still major, and Moxen acceleration with sol-lands is as great as ever, Caverns are still sweet- they were always the great parts of the deck. The 8 Thalia's we see now get ridiculously good, and as you know I don't think a well-built 20 land/4 mox deck needs the cost reducers.
I am not averse to dropping SF in and out, but it has to be said a T1 Thalia of either sort and t2 SF is really hard for most decks.
I am less sold on Recruiter- and indeed am wary of doing too much with critters controlling. For a D N T deck where all the hate is in dudes and vials then yes. But I like the diversity of SF/Chalice and Thalia's for interacting. We are not as vulnerable as D N T to Pyroclasm or Humility for example. We need to find room for some flyers too, even rubbishy ones like Charioteers (for lifelink) or riftwatcher (for life) or even Eecha(?) (apologies for spellling) can close out matches where the ground clogs up with mother of Runes and Batterskull/swords on their side, say and I like those type of cards to beat burn, which is always about. Against a lot of decks sub standard but soldier flyers make the difference between blocking an Inkmoth or Delver, and not. Including those type of cards and the recruiter might make for some slower starts. I feel to an extent we already ride the value train enogh and just needed the Thalia to round out the hate critters.
Prelate I am really not sure on. Miracles was mentioned, and although Miracles is popular and super it is a deck that we should be doing well against anyway - 4 caverns, Chalice, SField and enlistment recruiters tended to make that deck very beatable without resorting to locking critters. As a sideboard option perhaps. I think Chalice/SF is enough. I do not get to play SS very often, my other pet projects like Stasis, Stax and Pox get in the way, as do maintaining my Established decks and keeping them up to date (like D N T, Burn, Merfolk, Dredge and Miracles etc.) I think it is great that the deck is getting love, but am a bit wary of going too far down the hate bear route, I like a lot of the other disruption available, even if I don't always run the same list I do like those non creature slots to be there.
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Suppression Field is trash. Unless you get it out on Turn 1, it's 90% of the time a liability.
I always had more success with Winter Orb anyway, but that's more of a sideboard card than anything else.
Look, the ability to play Chalice of the Void 5-8 that can actually "Chalice" something that costs more than 2 cmc, AND can stop it from even being cast in the first place (to generate storm)... is way better than Suppression Field or Winter Orb. I think this is the "lock piece" the deck needed. And the fact that it's a creature means it gets a bonus from spare Caverns naming "Human".
If we are losing to to storm and prelate makes a difference then the main deck is probably wrong to begin with. I know good Storm players can play through a Thalia but its pretty hard early on. We even a have a solider who grants hexproof in the board if you are worried about Storm, and we have access to Rest in Peace and Aethersworn Canonist- who also serves double duty vs Elves, Enchantress etc.
Suppression field hits the matches it needs too, d n t, maverick, to a lesser extent miracles (where we are already strong), it slows those RUG delver lists to a crawl early on, and late on they are dead normally. I use Armageddon boards over Orb, btw, which may explain why I like it more than you.
Honestly, I think prelate is board card, maybe a one of main with a Recruiter to up the number of Chalices to 5 or protect against an Abrupt Decay. That said how often do we lose to a single Abrupt Decay? The deck does not need chalices up to 8, most decks are hyper aware of Chalice thanks to Eldrazi and Merfolk jumping on the bandwagon, non-blue decks try more than ever and put their removal spells over a wider curve. In the UK and indeed, Europe, the decks are much less blue, with fewer Chalice t1 one stopping a bunch of blue cantrip decks in their tracks, I have played a lot of Chalice v Chalice deck matchups this year, and lockouts due to Chalice seem far less common than before. I think D n T might make use of Prelate, its probably more in need than we are.
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If you are a Soldier Stompy enthusiast you should read this post, especially the bottom part because it's got some honest insight into the viability of this deck.
Why don't any of these deck lists I see have Trinisphere? The point of running a stompy shell is to have Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere to mess with your opponent. The red stompy build which has typically been the most competitive Stompy deck always runs Trinishpere. One of the mains reasons the deck has been better is because it has Blood Moon, Trinishpere and Chalice which can prevent your opponent from doing much of anything if nothing at all in certain matchups. Just like Red Stompy, my deck gives the opponent SERIOUS mana problems, and doesn't just rely on Chalice to prevent them from casting spells. For us, the Thalia's are like the equivalent of Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon, also, when I used to play this deck, I always ran Loxodon Gatekeeper, a card which is very similar to the new Thalia (with a stronger effect), but it costs 1 more. I would still run that card for sure, maybe just less copies because we have Recruiter of the Guard to fetch it if we are playing vs basic lands. Suppression Field feels like it's just a dead card in a lot of matches, or at least not worth a slot, and I think running a singleton Phyrexian Revoker that can be fetched with Recruiter, and possibly more copies in sideboard, is better than running 4 Suppression fields. This also frees up slots for other stuff.
My sideboard needs to be updated, I haven't looked deep into it, this is basically what it was like two years ago when I was playing this deck, and I haven't really played this deck since then. I've just started testing this again, so I'm sure this list will change slightly.
Things to Note:
Winter Orb had been doing work in my testing. It combos with your creature mana tax abilities, and is especially broken with the new Thalia and Loxodon Gatekeeper. Also, to everyone not running Gustcloack Savior, I advise you to test it. I remember when I was playing this deck a lot, that this card performed extremely well, and it is not letting me down in my recent little bit of testing. It makes it so that you can attack into a big creature with Captain and not have to worry, you can always swing with everything and not working about feeding creatures off. And also, something that is very relevant, you can avoid triggering Swords and Jitte effects by making sure your opponents don't deal combat dmg while they block. Sanctum prelate seems like it just has absurd power level, but I'm wondering it's hard to make room for more cards in this deck. Currently I have 1 of, but I'm thinking about possibly removing it and adding another Relic Seeker or Recruiter to make sure I can consistently get Jitte down in the matchups that it shines in. Suppression Field seems like a sideboard card to me if played at all, as it IS very good in some matchups, while useless in others. Captain of the Watch is cool with Captain, but not necessary to win games, I don't need to be swinging with giant soldier to win games, and it's not like I can outrace lots of decks if I'm not disrupting them. I just need to be developing my board while preventing my opponent from doing so. I have it as a 1 of for testing purposes, but I think I will be removing it last some point.
Cards with Potential: Aven Mindcensor is a great card. Most decks run fetch lands so it can be useful vs most decks, and it's even better vs decks with Tutor effects like Maverick or Ad Nauseum.
Stoneforge Mystic is just a better card than Relic Seeker and might be worth inclusion.
Sanctum Prelate is an absurdly good card but it's hard to cast in this deck, especially on turn 3. This card makes me want to ditch a Soldier theme deck and just play I kind of mono-white big hatebear deck.
It might make sense to ditch the Soldier plan. Here's some thoughts on the matter.
Pros: We have other options open to us, Aven Mindcensor, Vryn Wingmare, and of course Sanctum Prelate, which is like almost like a Chalice on legs.
IMPORTANT!! SEE BELOW!!
Here is a Red Stompy list that placed 4th in a recent tournament with 772 players on July 9th. Compare your list with this deck and ask yourself, is your deck as effective as Red Stompy? When I compare my lists, I see a lot of similarities, but I think the Red Stompy is better at doing what this deck wants to do. It has a good finishers, and the Blood Moon effect is better in many matchups than Thalia and Gatekeeper effects. Prove me wrong. Also, this deck runs Simian Spirit Guide, an effect that we don't have access to which is a huge loss. It not only fixes the mana, but gives them a better chance of dropping a turn 1 Chalice and just makes the deck consistently faster. I think this is actually one of the bigger issues of the deck. It's very hard to play a card like Sanctum Prelate because it isn't reliably castable.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I have tried up to 4 revokers, they are fine but not as backbreaking in Death and Taxes, but still fine. The odd copy makes its way in to my list now, and the odd one in the board too.
Trinisphere main is pretty mediocre in my meta because the blue mana efficient decks they prey on are not present in enough numbers- the average medium sized European event won't have a 50% plus Brainstorm decks you see in the US and Japanese events. There are a lot of decks that run 3phere main or side here in my local meta. The last event I played in the other day had 20 odd players, a lot of midrange Jund/Nic Fit and burn, painter, ANT, Enchantress, etc, but just a smattering of Brainstorm/Force decks it had as many Geddon/3sphere/Tabernacle decks and Aether Vial decks as it did Blue decks. That was unusual to be sure but as I know only too well from my years running Humility/Geddon Stax (like the old dutch style)- the 3 sphere is not that stellar here, sadly unless you pack in those 'geddons. One obvious point is what is the point of running Thalia 1 is that she makes spells cost one more, a similar to Triniphere effect if the non critter spell costs two and better if it costs 3.
The 8 moon AIR decks probably have been the best because they run 8 Moons and as you rightfully point out SSG, not because of Trinisphere.
Eldrazi have had more success in the Chalice stakes without 3 sphere and Merfolk now runs Chalice too without 3 sphere in sight, so Chalice clearly does work on its own in the right shell, although here a lot of chalice decks have to side them out against each other!
You could try SSG in the Soldier Stompy.
I would not personally drop the soldiers from Soldier Stompy- I own a lot of top decks, I want to see this one improve, it already has some good matches v some top decks. Dropping the Soldiers - why not play D N T- it has placed far better than all the chalice stompy decks combined these past few years.
Also, Trinishpere is really bad with cost reducing cards like Daru Warchief and Ballyrush Banneret, because Trini completely negates their abilities. That's a total nombo. I still like increasing the tax effects as much as possible. Winter orb is hugely disruptive, and it combos well with the new Thalia and Loxodon Gatekeeper. The problem is that it can mess with you as well, and it can really hurt if you don't have a Captain on the battlefield. Cost reducers help lessen the pain a bit, and Chrome Mox is great. It's much less effective vs Mana Dork decks.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I get a fair chunk of use out of the Charioteers for more flying lifelink, and I use Esher too in those Gustcloak slots,- its amazing how these terrible flying Soldiers get the job done when the actually good part of the package works. I use a single Gustcloak, always want to get the second in. Thanks to new Thalia I dropped Gatekeeper. Orb/Geddon are great, I don't use cost reducers myself, I have S Field/Orb/Geddon swapping in and out. O ring is quite effective for me, and Jitte I use in the board if SF is main. Palace Jailer is going straight in, my recruiter I am looking at as a one of.
I use the Containment Priest, Spirit of the Lab and Canonist Side so that I am more disruptive when required. Jotun Grunt I have used before, but tend to RIP nowadays.
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Ok, so I changed my list a bit. I"ve tested a bit, but not a ton. I've played vs a lot of the top decks. Quite a bit of words below, but good words, bare with me. I've put quite a bit of though into this deck, so if you're looking to play a competitive version, I would read this for insight.
As much as I like winter orb, it's not a card I want to play before I've established my board. This is why I'm I put a singleton Hokori, Dust Drinker (Winter Orb on legs) in the maindeck before (though I've taken it out for now), so that I could drop it after I'm ahead on board and hopefully prevent an opponent from stabilizing. It can be fetched with Recruiter. I'm just not sure it's worth it maindeck, maybe a sideboard card.
I forgot how useful Suppression Field is vs fetch lands, and we do have a tax theme in this deck. It just makes a lot of cards mana sinks, and seems to really slow down opponents a lot as you establish pressure on board. It's also a white card to exile to Chrome Mox, unlike Winter Orb. The only drawback it has is making Karakas's ability cost 2 more, which is not very relevant. Sanctum Prelate seems fantastic as it's ability will be useful every game. It can act as another Chalice vs spell heavy decks, and it can protect itself which is very cool. Being able to protect your Chalice or from Abrupt Decay is very nice. This card is the best card vs Abrupt decay. Chalice for 1 and then dropping this for 2 means they can't really deal with your board with any type of spot removal. The only way out of that is with that I've seen is with Krosan Grip or an immediate Liliana response. I like the cost reducers as they help me drop my hand fast putting pressure and getting key hate cards out as fast as possible, also potentially lessening the pain of not having a mana accelerating land in your opening hand. I don't want to draw too many Banneret, so I included 3. I'm fine with 4 Warchief's as this guy makes all your first strike creatures enormous and puts serious pressure on the opponent.
About your sideboard; I feel like there are better cards than O-ring, sure it answers any nonland permanent, but I would choose cards for sideboard that can completely shut down another deck and can be fetched with Recruiter. If you do want an o-ring effect, I think Council's Judgment is strictly better, but an argument could be made against it because we run Thalia. I have a nice toolkit of Hatebears that I will have 4 sources of in my deck with 3x Recruiter. I'm not sure Leyline of Sanctity is necessary, maybe Aegis of the Gods is better in this deck. I haven't actually played vs Storm, so I've never used this card. I'm sure my sideboard can be tweaked.
I do like the IDEA of not playing cost reducers, allowing for more hate cards maindeck, I'm just not sure it's the best option. I'm curios what your list is drmarkb. It would also make me more incentivized to play Trinisphere although I'd still have reservations.
I'm not a fan of having cards in hand I can't cast reliably and relatively quickly if need be, so maindecking Captain of the Watch is questionable, I would only run it as a one of (although it can't be fetched unlike Warchief, which is a turnoff), and there are other hate cards I want in this deck more.
Also, wondering if a Mangara of Corondor can find his way as a one of in this deck because we are running Recruiter and Karakas. It seems unnecessary especially in a list with Suppression Field.
I think it's wise to talk about matchups
I will mention cards from my sideboard or cards that are a hot topic for debate, like Suppression Field or Sanctum Prelate
Miracles: Suppression Field hits their fetchlands, Sensei's Divining Top, Jace, the Mindsculpor. Sanctum Prelate can name 1,2, or 6 to prevent Terminus, and possibly even 4 to stop a Jace. War Priest of Thune can hit a top or counterbalance. Revoker can hit Jace or Top. Ratchet bomb can kill Angel tokens immediately
Death and Taxes: Suppression Field affects a lot of targets; Stoneforge, Equipments, Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Aether Vial, and Mother of Runes. Phyrexian Revoker hits all these targets as well.
Eldrazi: This is the hardest matchup for us, nigh unwinnable. I'd imagine First Strike is the most relevant ability in this matchup. It's not relevant unless we get a bunch of Warchief's on the table. We need to figure out how to beat this deck. I have some options below. Crackdown? Intrepid Hero? Please help!!! ahhhhhhh!!!
Infect aka. Berserk Stompy: Suppression Field hits fetchlands, Pendelhaven, Inkmoth Nexus. I think sideboard needs more answers to Blighted Agent and Inkmoth Nexus. I have ratchet bomb which can kill their non land creatures, although unreliably as I only have 2 copies in SD, but no way of dealing with Blinkmoth and no blocker for it.
Deathblade: Stoneforge decks seem like they could be tough, but not necessarily a bad matchup, as we can slow them down for sure. I could see a Leonin Relic-Warder maybe coming in to kill an equipment, and possibly even disenchant. Maybe Manriki-Gusari? Probably better in a Stoneforge deck.
Grixis Pyromancer: I have not played this matchup
Combo Elves: Containment Priest is good vs Natural Order, and Ethersworn Canonist is probably even better vs combo Elves. Ratchet bomb is a very nice one. Why not play all of them!? Suppression Field hits Fetchlands, Quirion Ranger and Wirewood Symbiote which is huge
BUG Control: this seems like a tough matchup, they have a 3 mana sweeper, mainboard 3-4 abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse and spells that cost 0,1,2,3 ND 4 which makes Chalice worse. Sanctum prelate would be good in a game like this. Multiples even better. Man I just wish I could somehow run like 4 of this card, maybe in the sideboard. Suppression field hits fetches and wastelands.
Storm: Board in Aegis of the Gods, Leyline of Sanctity, and Ethersworn Canonist. Suppression Field hit lands and not much else. I haven't played this, but these cards seem very effective to me. Can Storm beat a opening hand Leyline?? At least not with Tendrils of Agony. Maybe that's why people run 4. I suppose Empty the Warrens could be an issue. Cards I'm considering for inclusion and EXclusion.
Loxodon Gatekeeper first I'd like ti highlight this card. I was playing this card before Thalia 2.0 came out. I didn't see anyone else running it. I realized how powerful that effect is, and this card was one of the allstars before. Now we have 6 copies, to reliably get this affect going, and his effect is quite a bit more powerful for just 1 more mana.
Sanctum Prelate: this card is sexy. It makes me want to ditch Soldiers and just do a human theme. A turn 1 Chalice into turn 2 this guy seems nigh unbeatable for many decks. Having this card as basically a chalice on legs vs Spell heavy decks is absurd. You can name ANY number. This blows Meddling Mage out of the water. It's a 3 mana Iona, Shield of Emeria in many cases. I should probably be maindecking it.
Selfless Spirit seems like an essential card to add to this deck vs any control deck running Wrath effects. It can be fetched with Recruiter!! Mostly this is just good vs Pyroclasm and Abrupt Decay. All is Dust and Terminus don't give a care about this card
Originally I thought Palace Jailer would be broken in legacy, but after thinking a bit longer I'm not so sure. You want to play it vs creatures, but the problem is that creatures deal combat damage to you and which results in dethronement. This would be horrible thing to happen especially vs a control deck like Miracle's or Delver I'd imagine. You could potentially give them a free card every turn, and the more cards they have, the less chance you will have of regaining the throne. It's a high risk high reward card, and I would only play it if we can make it a low risk high reward card. Maybe it's just matchup dependent. It's true that in a grind match, or relatively stalled board state, this card could just take over the game. I WOULD love to play it, but conditions would have to be right.
I've already mentioned Hokori, Dust Drinker, it's a fetchable Winter Orb, so it's a card you will most likely drop play later in the game, and Winter Orbs affect is safer to play a bit later anyways to mitigate the masochism. Dropping this guy late when they tap out can be a pseudo-Armageddon. Though, if it's fetched for they will see it coming. I like to fetch for a creature then cheat it into play with Captain, which would prevent the spoiler factor. I wonder if D&T should play one of these bad boys, because it is bonkers with Rishadan Port, and not too shabby with Aether Vial as well.
It's nice to have Artifact and Enchantment removal that can be fetched, but I'm not sure which one is better Leonin Relic-Warder or War Priest of Thune. It might be Relic-Warder as it can hit both. Currently I have 2 Disenchant as well. I need a way to deal with the cards like Worship and Moat and Ensnaring Bridge
Intrepid Hero seem cool, and again, it can be fetched. I'm just not sure when it would be useful. Maybe it's good vs Eldrazi to kill all those Fatty Boom-Booms. I can see it being good vs Infect to deal with a pumped up dude.
I have Disenchant in my sideboard but is probably going to be cut, I"m sure before I even finish writing this. Again, not a you-win-game kind of card. Sure I could see it being like that vs Belcher??? Maybe?? Who even plays that deck? I actually don't know when I ever want to bring this card in, it's just sits in my sideboard idly making me feel comfortable. Sidenote; if you actually needed to click the card link for this, I'm assuming you don't actually play magic and you meant to be on the Yugioh forum. Disenchant is possibly the most reprinted card of all time.
Crackdown good vs Eldrazi, Goyf, Delver, I think this card could really turn creature matchups in our favor.
Crib Swap was in my sideboard for a while until recently, it's a great removal card in this deck that can you can put into you hand when revealed with Enlistment Officer. Again, it's not a card that reads, "deal with this or you lose the game," in any matchup, so I've been inclined to remove it for now.
Peacekeeper is ver very strong effect and it can be fetched with Recruiter. The problem is that it shuts down your attacks, and my only way to get rid of it is with ratchet bomb or attacking, this fact alone rules his card out methinks. I was playing vs infect which is very fast and I just wished I could slow them down to establish my board. I will find other cards to counter it.
Quick honorable mentions: Commander Easha is a good blocker, evasion, and can't be bolts Phyrexian Metamorph can be fetched and cast, and copies the biggest thing on the battlefield Kataki, War's Wage is probably not necessary as Affinity is not a great legacy deck, but it's an option that can be fetched Tsabo's Web is probably not necessary as it is really good vs Lands but we have lots of hate for that matchup already Kor Hookmaster I could see this being played as it's kind of like a removal spell, that allow you to force threw dmg for the win and it can be fetched Kor Skyfisher seems like it would fit in a Winter Orb version because you can recall a tapped land and then replay it, or recall an Officer or Prelate to replay. You can also do some other mana tricks with your mana accelerators. Holy Light I'm not sure that this card could beat out others for a slot, but it can be great Infect and Empty the Warrens Faerie Macabre has uses vs Dredge and Reanimator, but I'm not sure it's better than rest in peace. It can be fetched.
Some Final Notes:
I don't like running two many two mana spells in a Chalice deck, because playing Chalice for 2 can be very good sometimes
I'm wondering if Trinisphere is necessary for this deck. It has a lot of anti-synergy though, but it has a super power effect that will definitely be more of a burden for the opponent than it will be for the you, unless you're playing vs another stompy deck. I think a version with Trinisphere would need to remove the Soldier accelerators, at least Banneret. Also, it's lowering the creature count by 4 which makes Enlistment Officer worse.
I might run a singleton Mox Diamond because we don't have Simian Spirit Guide like Red Stompy to increase chances of turn 1 chalice or smooth out mana base. Blue Stompy has Trinket Mage that can fetch Seat of the Synod, and Eldrazi is colorless. We have the weakest manabase of all Stompy decks, if they made a white Simian Spirit Guide that could replace the Banneret and it was a soldier toooooo!! Oh I'd do WTOC's laundry. That being said, this mana base is still very playable, we have lots of good Chrome Mox targets, the only reason I'm not running 4 is because having a bunch in the opening hand can be bad, but it might be correct to run 4 in this deck, especially since we have so many legendary creatures.
LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
O ring is a main deck card, not a board option- CJ is the better board option. I avoid Leyline in this deck, and for me (I am infamous locally for hiding behond Leylines) that is huge. Rest in Peace/Thalia are pretty good at hurting Storm.....I use more hatebears in the board too- canonist.
You have a lot of very similar cards to me on your decklist and honorable mentions. My hookmasters have become Palace Jailers. For now.....)
Crackdown is an excellent call for Eldrazi.
Getting rid of Peacekeeper is easy. Don't pay its upkeep.....
Getting rid of Peacekeeper is easy. Don't pay its upkeep.....
Derp...
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Did you see the new banisher soldier? Some good points: cost 2w and not 1ww, its a dwarf. Bad points: cant be recruited, mediocre stats, palace jailer exists (altough its more expensive and monarch is highly variable)
Also i´m really liking the direction you are taking with the deck. Full mana acceleration, its similar to what i have being playing. I have to mention I still think captain of the watch should be in at least as a 1-off, its the best choice we have at closing games after we slow down the opponent and also its good when the board is stale or on topdeck.
I think there are 3 directions to test the deck right now: controlish death and taxes with 4 recruiters and silver-bullets, full aggro with CotW and cost reducers, and a mix of both wich seems wath we are mostly playing but maybe isnt the best route to take
I think Palace jailer is better for 4 than 3cc options........
I'm not sure you realized how dangerous this card is your yourself. So much so that I don't think it's playable.
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LEGACY: Soldier Stompy WW // Blue Stompy UU // Fit Variants BGRW // Sol Land Brews BGRUWC MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Yeah it is dangerous, but one of my metas has very few creature decks. You don't have to always play it of course. And if it gets something out of the way for a turn that could be enough, whilst against low critter decks or reanimator style decks its fine.....
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A lot of versions of this deck have a common core of Chalice, Thalia, Preeminent, Captains, Enlistment Officer Moxen and a restrictive or utility element like Winter orb, o rings or Suppression Field, but the rest depends on your meta, and that is where playing TL or not will make sense. As it is this deck normally beats Miracles, thanks to uncounterables, a big clock, chalice and a metric ton of value. Most other decks demand other cards be included that skew the deck that may interfere with the human count- Warchief is very much optional and Captains often end up at just 3 copies in the few lists I have seen over the years. I would want mid twenties for a human count, but I think if captain is down you are winning anyway.
My creature core going forward:
4 New Thalia
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Captain of the Watch
4 Enlistment Officer
1 Brimaz
1 Gustcloak Savior
Suppression Field is too good not to play right now. It punishes lots of activated abilities, including fetches and the like. However it nonbos with stuff like our own Karakas-es and, if we decide to play them, Wasteland. I reckon that forgoing Suppression Field will open us up to playing more creatures and perhaps the full grip of Karakas. With this many legendaries now, we can constantly save them. Plus the 4 Karakas-es and heavy denial packages also opens the option to play something like Mangara of Corondor. However, we don't have nearly as many tricks as Death and Taxes has to abuse him. More legendaries also opens up Castle as an other way to protect our Thalias.
Think of Thalia as our Blood Moon and Magus of the Moons. I think 8 seems to be the right number--any threat under Chalice+lock piece is a serious clock if not dealt with.
"There are no two words in the English language more harmful than 'good job'." -Terrance Fletcher, Whiplash (2014)
4 Cavern of Souls
2 City of Traitors
3 Karakas
5 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
3 Ballyrush Banneret
3 Captain of the Watch
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Gustcloak Savior
2 Kor Skyfisher
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Winter Orb
4 Rest in Peace
3 Damping Matrix
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Magus of the Moat
4 Banishing Light
The answer to wrath is the same as ever- play around it. I get the impression that you might not be that experienced at playing Legacy Mtg against control decks packing board wipes?
Our anti-wrath cards is our friendly 4 mana enlistment officer- these are the cards that replace the one or two cards lost when Wrath hits. Whenever a Wrath effect is cast you will lose card advantage, we have often uncounterable Enlistment officers (thanks to Cavern) to get that back. When you do play your dudes you need to ask yourself- what happens if they board wipe? There is no need to commit too many men to the board- two men in our deck - eg a new and old Thalia - will kill them in four turns. You hold the other cards back in hand, knowing that they come down post wipe and they need to wipe again. Your Karakas can also bounce a Legendary soldier back, minimising card disadvantage when they do wipe. In short you need to make sure Wrath reads "pay four mana, destroy 1/2 cards"- if it is destroying 4 real cards you are playing it wrong. Our deck can be fast, but it is more about disruption + dudes, like Death and Taxes.
A single captain of the watch, for example- is probably 2 turns of hitting before they die. Once he is down keep all the other cards back in hand. If you already have 3 dudes on the table the captain should not be laid unless he wins the game there and then. Obviously with Preeminent Captain the Captain OTW can come in t2 (where thy take 6 damage) and you only need a Thalia or Suppression Field type effect to buy enough time for those cards to complete the job, so it is not a hard and fast rule.
Either way you do not beat wrath that way. A Selfless Spirit type effect might work in some lists, but I personally have never lost to decks packing Wrath effects- we prey on them. You might want to post your list here- it may be you run too many cheap dudes.........
You also need to make sure you are taking the right hands and have a decent mana ratio.
I have been prioritising working on Humility-Stax and Stasis for the past couple of months, most of my other decks are pretty standard lists, or and I am currently pretty happy with them. That leaves me some time to investigate how Thalia works in the Solider Chalice Stompy shell. I am not sure if Thalia will end up in new D n T lists, but I guess it will do as a 2/3 of. I will leave that to others to figure out what the new core is.
First thing I have to say is I only tested for a couple of hours, but I think the card is a 4 of. The reason is whereas a D N T shell can put it into play t3, we can get it t1 or 2, and the effect is disproportionately more powerful early in the game.
Having 4 x 2 legendary dudes might open us up a little to dead cards, but the deck is a Chrome Mox deck, and it is also a Karakas deck (I think 2 or 3 copies is not unreasonable, although you can also make the argument for Eiganjo castle).
First strike is exceptionally important to Thalia. With the other Thalia you get a defensive line that eats Eldrazi, for example. That is a significant upgrade on Field Marshall in the same slot defensively. I did some specific testing on the draw against an Eldrazi build and that situation came up a lot. Against most decks of course Stompy is the aggressor regardless of being on the play or draw.
In that respect how dsirupting is Thalia? Answer- it is the nuts against fetch heavy decks, and has to be dealt with- with Preeminent, Thalia and Thalia 2 that is now 12 critters that must be dealt with if they land early doors- Preeminent can lead to free Enlistments or Captain of the Watches on t2, and can bury the opponent under a wealth of aggro and card advantage- we all know that. Thalia is up there with it for its ability to inhibit enemy game plans, and provides a decent clock.
So what gives?
I think mana is a big issue in Stompy lists- the majority of lists I see are often mana light and hope to either Preeminent stuff in or Bayonet cost reduce, really skimping on lands. I have felt for a while that this leads to too many mulligans, and that a higher land build allowing does not make the deck less explosive but enables more plodding hands to be taken more often- that is more attractive now those regular acceleration free hands can include the more disruptive t2 Thalia T3 Thalia II play. Thalia helps a here in that it gives even more cause to drop the cost reducer- a t2 or 3 Cavern of Souls dropping into Thalia Heretic Cathar is probably a better and more threatening play against most top decks than the ability of the cost reducer to drop in t3 or t4 Captain of the Watches.
That said I had steered away from cost reduction for a while, in favour of a couple more utility lands than in regular builds, so how did I get it in? The answer for me was I hit one of my disruption slots- where I use Revokers over Suppression Fields, which are in the side. Incidentally S Field is still a great card of course, but with Thalia nerfing fetchland decks I feel that S F is more of a board card for specific matches. I then nibbled away at Field Marshall, going to just two- he has always been on the more underwhelming side of the deck.
I think it is important to maintain some level of flyers in the deck- they cannot be cut. Those first strikers can repel ground based blockers such as Eldrazi or Batterskull Tokens easily. Flyers also give us some life gain with some Charioteers, essential for burn and fast delver matches, whilst Esher and a Gustcloak complete the set of flyers that look like unplayable chaff in any other context and must be read twice with incredulity by all opponents.
Back to Thalia- imagine RUG or RU delver a moment- Thalia's impact on their mana base is ridiculous, and thus she will end up eating a bolt or they will get shafted and lose. Their counterspells for her won't be so effective due to Cavern, so as an aggressive Delver player I would be actively seeking to hold removal back for her, more so than for Thalia I even. That sounds a lot worse when Preeminent and Thalia I are also in the deck.
Where I think Thalia will have minimal impact is against decks such as some Prison decks, especially those running Humility and Moat. Fortunately these are few and far between, very much a lost art. Miracles game two being is the the most common occurrence of Moat before you get to certain Enchantress sideboards which run Humility and sometimes Moat. Since game 1 against Miracles is one of the more favourable for Solider Stompy, I am not too worried. Few Stax players exist anymore, and equally uncommon Parfait is the only other deck that runs main deck Humility. Since this is the only deck that can t1 a new Thalia, I think bright times are ahead.....
Full on Supp field version too.
I still don't like the cost reducer aspect- I would prefer some utility soldier flyers there.
EDIT I will be looking to run the deck, probably with 3-4 S Field main rather than in the side as I currently have them.
Don't know how good he is, but he is first turn here sometimes, which counts for a lot.
I don't like Banneret, and new cars like Thalia and this make me feel there is not enough room for our Banneret who was decent in earlier versions post Thalia 1 but now I feel is not up to it. It is not as if we are short on mana- we use Moxen and Sol lands, as well as Pre-eminents- often cost reduction is too late. To be honest even Warchief (who is always good) does not make my list nowadays.
Jailer also has to be worth a look.
EDIT
I don't really rate Flickerwisp. I would rather play a flying soldier if I am worried about Moat-
Esha is good against everything critter based bar a hasty Emrakul and it can be Karakas'ed.
Charioteers have lifelink and >3 toughness for burn and aggro matches
Gustcloaks are solid again body-wise and again help vs opposing Jitte/Batterskulled dudes.
None are stellar but all are good in the context of their nature as Soldiers- where they are free (card wise) due to Officers or Free (mana wise) due to Pre-eminents.
Between Recruiter, Palace Jailer, and Sanctum Prelate, Soldiers just got a heaping helping of powerful tools to improve the deck.
Basically, Recruiter of the Guard is a 4-of now, and we can play less of other stuff like Daru Warchief (down to a 3-of) and play more tutor targets both maindeck and in the sideboard. This guy can get Containment Priest, Ethersworn Canonist, Palace Jailer (if you need to remove a creature or fight show and tell), Peacekeeper (against fast aggro decks - then you stop paying his upkeep when you build up your forces to alpha strike), and more.
Palace Jailer is simply the removal spell that this deck needed, AND it essentially cantrips! You might even get to draw multiple cards off this guy!
Sanctum Prelate is Chalice of the Void on a creature, but even better! You can essentially name whatever spell you want to stop with this thing. Already have Chalice @ 1 out in play against Miracles? Name "6" and lock him out of Terminus and your creatures essentially can't die for the rest of the game! I'm thinking the deck will be playing maybe even as many as 4 Sanctum Prelate MD instead of Suppression Field / Winter Orb. You're essentially now playing 8 Chalice of the Void MD, or even 12 if you consider that Recruiter of the Guard can get Prelate as well. Sick.
The value train of top 4 is still there, Captain of the Watch still combos with Pre-eminent, Thalia is still sweet, Chalice still major, and Moxen acceleration with sol-lands is as great as ever, Caverns are still sweet- they were always the great parts of the deck. The 8 Thalia's we see now get ridiculously good, and as you know I don't think a well-built 20 land/4 mox deck needs the cost reducers.
I am not averse to dropping SF in and out, but it has to be said a T1 Thalia of either sort and t2 SF is really hard for most decks.
I am less sold on Recruiter- and indeed am wary of doing too much with critters controlling. For a D N T deck where all the hate is in dudes and vials then yes. But I like the diversity of SF/Chalice and Thalia's for interacting. We are not as vulnerable as D N T to Pyroclasm or Humility for example. We need to find room for some flyers too, even rubbishy ones like Charioteers (for lifelink) or riftwatcher (for life) or even Eecha(?) (apologies for spellling) can close out matches where the ground clogs up with mother of Runes and Batterskull/swords on their side, say and I like those type of cards to beat burn, which is always about. Against a lot of decks sub standard but soldier flyers make the difference between blocking an Inkmoth or Delver, and not. Including those type of cards and the recruiter might make for some slower starts. I feel to an extent we already ride the value train enogh and just needed the Thalia to round out the hate critters.
Prelate I am really not sure on. Miracles was mentioned, and although Miracles is popular and super it is a deck that we should be doing well against anyway - 4 caverns, Chalice, SField and enlistment recruiters tended to make that deck very beatable without resorting to locking critters. As a sideboard option perhaps. I think Chalice/SF is enough. I do not get to play SS very often, my other pet projects like Stasis, Stax and Pox get in the way, as do maintaining my Established decks and keeping them up to date (like D N T, Burn, Merfolk, Dredge and Miracles etc.) I think it is great that the deck is getting love, but am a bit wary of going too far down the hate bear route, I like a lot of the other disruption available, even if I don't always run the same list I do like those non creature slots to be there.
I always had more success with Winter Orb anyway, but that's more of a sideboard card than anything else.
Look, the ability to play Chalice of the Void 5-8 that can actually "Chalice" something that costs more than 2 cmc, AND can stop it from even being cast in the first place (to generate storm)... is way better than Suppression Field or Winter Orb. I think this is the "lock piece" the deck needed. And the fact that it's a creature means it gets a bonus from spare Caverns naming "Human".
Suppression field hits the matches it needs too, d n t, maverick, to a lesser extent miracles (where we are already strong), it slows those RUG delver lists to a crawl early on, and late on they are dead normally. I use Armageddon boards over Orb, btw, which may explain why I like it more than you.
Honestly, I think prelate is board card, maybe a one of main with a Recruiter to up the number of Chalices to 5 or protect against an Abrupt Decay. That said how often do we lose to a single Abrupt Decay? The deck does not need chalices up to 8, most decks are hyper aware of Chalice thanks to Eldrazi and Merfolk jumping on the bandwagon, non-blue decks try more than ever and put their removal spells over a wider curve. In the UK and indeed, Europe, the decks are much less blue, with fewer Chalice t1 one stopping a bunch of blue cantrip decks in their tracks, I have played a lot of Chalice v Chalice deck matchups this year, and lockouts due to Chalice seem far less common than before. I think D n T might make use of Prelate, its probably more in need than we are.
Why don't any of these deck lists I see have Trinisphere? The point of running a stompy shell is to have Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere to mess with your opponent. The red stompy build which has typically been the most competitive Stompy deck always runs Trinishpere. One of the mains reasons the deck has been better is because it has Blood Moon, Trinishpere and Chalice which can prevent your opponent from doing much of anything if nothing at all in certain matchups. Just like Red Stompy, my deck gives the opponent SERIOUS mana problems, and doesn't just rely on Chalice to prevent them from casting spells. For us, the Thalia's are like the equivalent of Magus of the Moon and Blood Moon, also, when I used to play this deck, I always ran Loxodon Gatekeeper, a card which is very similar to the new Thalia (with a stronger effect), but it costs 1 more. I would still run that card for sure, maybe just less copies because we have Recruiter of the Guard to fetch it if we are playing vs basic lands. Suppression Field feels like it's just a dead card in a lot of matches, or at least not worth a slot, and I think running a singleton Phyrexian Revoker that can be fetched with Recruiter, and possibly more copies in sideboard, is better than running 4 Suppression fields. This also frees up slots for other stuff.
My sideboard needs to be updated, I haven't looked deep into it, this is basically what it was like two years ago when I was playing this deck, and I haven't really played this deck since then. I've just started testing this again, so I'm sure this list will change slightly.
My current list:
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Karakas
2 Plains
1 Tundra
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
Creatures: 30
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Loxodon Gatekeeper
1 Captain of the Watch
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Recruiter of the Guard
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Palace Jailer
3 Gustcloak Savior
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Winter Orb
3 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Crib Swap
1 Intrepid Hero
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Disenchant
2 Rest in Peace
1 Batterskull
Things to Note:
Winter Orb had been doing work in my testing. It combos with your creature mana tax abilities, and is especially broken with the new Thalia and Loxodon Gatekeeper. Also, to everyone not running Gustcloack Savior, I advise you to test it. I remember when I was playing this deck a lot, that this card performed extremely well, and it is not letting me down in my recent little bit of testing. It makes it so that you can attack into a big creature with Captain and not have to worry, you can always swing with everything and not working about feeding creatures off. And also, something that is very relevant, you can avoid triggering Swords and Jitte effects by making sure your opponents don't deal combat dmg while they block. Sanctum prelate seems like it just has absurd power level, but I'm wondering it's hard to make room for more cards in this deck. Currently I have 1 of, but I'm thinking about possibly removing it and adding another Relic Seeker or Recruiter to make sure I can consistently get Jitte down in the matchups that it shines in. Suppression Field seems like a sideboard card to me if played at all, as it IS very good in some matchups, while useless in others. Captain of the Watch is cool with Captain, but not necessary to win games, I don't need to be swinging with giant soldier to win games, and it's not like I can outrace lots of decks if I'm not disrupting them. I just need to be developing my board while preventing my opponent from doing so. I have it as a 1 of for testing purposes, but I think I will be removing it last some point.
Cards with Potential:
Aven Mindcensor is a great card. Most decks run fetch lands so it can be useful vs most decks, and it's even better vs decks with Tutor effects like Maverick or Ad Nauseum.
Stoneforge Mystic is just a better card than Relic Seeker and might be worth inclusion.
Sanctum Prelate is an absurdly good card but it's hard to cast in this deck, especially on turn 3. This card makes me want to ditch a Soldier theme deck and just play I kind of mono-white big hatebear deck.
It might make sense to ditch the Soldier plan. Here's some thoughts on the matter.
Pros: We have other options open to us, Aven Mindcensor, Vryn Wingmare, and of course Sanctum Prelate, which is like almost like a Chalice on legs.
IMPORTANT!! SEE BELOW!!
Here is a Red Stompy list that placed 4th in a recent tournament with 772 players on July 9th. Compare your list with this deck and ask yourself, is your deck as effective as Red Stompy? When I compare my lists, I see a lot of similarities, but I think the Red Stompy is better at doing what this deck wants to do. It has a good finishers, and the Blood Moon effect is better in many matchups than Thalia and Gatekeeper effects. Prove me wrong. Also, this deck runs Simian Spirit Guide, an effect that we don't have access to which is a huge loss. It not only fixes the mana, but gives them a better chance of dropping a turn 1 Chalice and just makes the deck consistently faster. I think this is actually one of the bigger issues of the deck. It's very hard to play a card like Sanctum Prelate because it isn't reliably castable.
1 Goblin Settler
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Murderous Redcap
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Stingscourger
2 Imperial Recruiter
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Magus of the Moon
4 Moggcatcher
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Blood Moon
Artifacts: 12
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Chrome Mox
3 Trinisphere
4 Chalice of the Void
Lands: 20
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
10 Mountain
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Trinisphere main is pretty mediocre in my meta because the blue mana efficient decks they prey on are not present in enough numbers- the average medium sized European event won't have a 50% plus Brainstorm decks you see in the US and Japanese events. There are a lot of decks that run 3phere main or side here in my local meta. The last event I played in the other day had 20 odd players, a lot of midrange Jund/Nic Fit and burn, painter, ANT, Enchantress, etc, but just a smattering of Brainstorm/Force decks it had as many Geddon/3sphere/Tabernacle decks and Aether Vial decks as it did Blue decks. That was unusual to be sure but as I know only too well from my years running Humility/Geddon Stax (like the old dutch style)- the 3 sphere is not that stellar here, sadly unless you pack in those 'geddons. One obvious point is what is the point of running Thalia 1 is that she makes spells cost one more, a similar to Triniphere effect if the non critter spell costs two and better if it costs 3.
The 8 moon AIR decks probably have been the best because they run 8 Moons and as you rightfully point out SSG, not because of Trinisphere.
Eldrazi have had more success in the Chalice stakes without 3 sphere and Merfolk now runs Chalice too without 3 sphere in sight, so Chalice clearly does work on its own in the right shell, although here a lot of chalice decks have to side them out against each other!
You could try SSG in the Soldier Stompy.
I would not personally drop the soldiers from Soldier Stompy- I own a lot of top decks, I want to see this one improve, it already has some good matches v some top decks. Dropping the Soldiers - why not play D N T- it has placed far better than all the chalice stompy decks combined these past few years.
The list I'm at so far
4 Cavern of Souls
2 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Karakas
3 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
Creatures:
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Loxodon Gatekeeper
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Gustcloak Savior
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Daru Warchief
1 Hokori, Dust Drinker
1 Captain of the Watch
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Trinisphere
4 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Crib Swap
1 Intrepid Hero
2 Disenchant
2 Rest in Peace
1 Sanctum Prelate
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Palace Jailer
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
I use the Containment Priest, Spirit of the Lab and Canonist Side so that I am more disruptive when required. Jotun Grunt I have used before, but tend to RIP nowadays.
As much as I like winter orb, it's not a card I want to play before I've established my board. This is why I'm I put a singleton Hokori, Dust Drinker (Winter Orb on legs) in the maindeck before (though I've taken it out for now), so that I could drop it after I'm ahead on board and hopefully prevent an opponent from stabilizing. It can be fetched with Recruiter. I'm just not sure it's worth it maindeck, maybe a sideboard card.
I forgot how useful Suppression Field is vs fetch lands, and we do have a tax theme in this deck. It just makes a lot of cards mana sinks, and seems to really slow down opponents a lot as you establish pressure on board. It's also a white card to exile to Chrome Mox, unlike Winter Orb. The only drawback it has is making Karakas's ability cost 2 more, which is not very relevant. Sanctum Prelate seems fantastic as it's ability will be useful every game. It can act as another Chalice vs spell heavy decks, and it can protect itself which is very cool. Being able to protect your Chalice or from Abrupt Decay is very nice. This card is the best card vs Abrupt decay. Chalice for 1 and then dropping this for 2 means they can't really deal with your board with any type of spot removal. The only way out of that is with that I've seen is with Krosan Grip or an immediate Liliana response. I like the cost reducers as they help me drop my hand fast putting pressure and getting key hate cards out as fast as possible, also potentially lessening the pain of not having a mana accelerating land in your opening hand. I don't want to draw too many Banneret, so I included 3. I'm fine with 4 Warchief's as this guy makes all your first strike creatures enormous and puts serious pressure on the opponent.
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Flagstones of Trokair
2 Karakas
3 Plains
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
Creatures:
4 Preeminent Captain
4 Enlistment Officer
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Loxodon Gatekeeper
4 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
3 Recruiter of the Guard
4 Daru Warchief
3 Ballyrush Banneret
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Chrome Mox
Enchantments:
4 Suppression Field
3 Leyline of Sanctity
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
1 Disenchant
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Aegis of the Gods
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Sanctum Prelate
About your sideboard; I feel like there are better cards than O-ring, sure it answers any nonland permanent, but I would choose cards for sideboard that can completely shut down another deck and can be fetched with Recruiter. If you do want an o-ring effect, I think Council's Judgment is strictly better, but an argument could be made against it because we run Thalia. I have a nice toolkit of Hatebears that I will have 4 sources of in my deck with 3x Recruiter. I'm not sure Leyline of Sanctity is necessary, maybe Aegis of the Gods is better in this deck. I haven't actually played vs Storm, so I've never used this card. I'm sure my sideboard can be tweaked.
I do like the IDEA of not playing cost reducers, allowing for more hate cards maindeck, I'm just not sure it's the best option. I'm curios what your list is drmarkb. It would also make me more incentivized to play Trinisphere although I'd still have reservations.
I'm not a fan of having cards in hand I can't cast reliably and relatively quickly if need be, so maindecking Captain of the Watch is questionable, I would only run it as a one of (although it can't be fetched unlike Warchief, which is a turnoff), and there are other hate cards I want in this deck more.
Also, wondering if a Mangara of Corondor can find his way as a one of in this deck because we are running Recruiter and Karakas. It seems unnecessary especially in a list with Suppression Field.
I think it's wise to talk about matchups
I will mention cards from my sideboard or cards that are a hot topic for debate, like Suppression Field or Sanctum Prelate
Miracles: Suppression Field hits their fetchlands, Sensei's Divining Top, Jace, the Mindsculpor. Sanctum Prelate can name 1,2, or 6 to prevent Terminus, and possibly even 4 to stop a Jace. War Priest of Thune can hit a top or counterbalance. Revoker can hit Jace or Top. Ratchet bomb can kill Angel tokens immediately
Lands: Containment priest shuts down Dark Depths and does Karakas, also Prelate or Chalice for two and they can't Life from the Loam or Punishing Fire. Suppression Field hits Maze of Ith, Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Thespian's Stage. A lot of cards that hit this deck hard, this is a good matchup.
Death and Taxes: Suppression Field affects a lot of targets; Stoneforge, Equipments, Rishadan Port, Wasteland, Aether Vial, and Mother of Runes. Phyrexian Revoker hits all these targets as well.
Eldrazi: This is the hardest matchup for us, nigh unwinnable. I'd imagine First Strike is the most relevant ability in this matchup. It's not relevant unless we get a bunch of Warchief's on the table. We need to figure out how to beat this deck. I have some options below. Crackdown? Intrepid Hero? Please help!!! ahhhhhhh!!!
Infect aka. Berserk Stompy: Suppression Field hits fetchlands, Pendelhaven, Inkmoth Nexus. I think sideboard needs more answers to Blighted Agent and Inkmoth Nexus. I have ratchet bomb which can kill their non land creatures, although unreliably as I only have 2 copies in SD, but no way of dealing with Blinkmoth and no blocker for it.
Deathblade: Stoneforge decks seem like they could be tough, but not necessarily a bad matchup, as we can slow them down for sure. I could see a Leonin Relic-Warder maybe coming in to kill an equipment, and possibly even disenchant. Maybe Manriki-Gusari? Probably better in a Stoneforge deck.
Grixis Pyromancer: I have not played this matchup
Combo Elves: Containment Priest is good vs Natural Order, and Ethersworn Canonist is probably even better vs combo Elves. Ratchet bomb is a very nice one. Why not play all of them!? Suppression Field hits Fetchlands, Quirion Ranger and Wirewood Symbiote which is huge
BUG Control: this seems like a tough matchup, they have a 3 mana sweeper, mainboard 3-4 abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse and spells that cost 0,1,2,3 ND 4 which makes Chalice worse. Sanctum prelate would be good in a game like this. Multiples even better. Man I just wish I could somehow run like 4 of this card, maybe in the sideboard. Suppression field hits fetches and wastelands.
Storm: Board in Aegis of the Gods, Leyline of Sanctity, and Ethersworn Canonist. Suppression Field hit lands and not much else. I haven't played this, but these cards seem very effective to me. Can Storm beat a opening hand Leyline?? At least not with Tendrils of Agony. Maybe that's why people run 4. I suppose Empty the Warrens could be an issue.
Cards I'm considering for inclusion and EXclusion.
Loxodon Gatekeeper first I'd like ti highlight this card. I was playing this card before Thalia 2.0 came out. I didn't see anyone else running it. I realized how powerful that effect is, and this card was one of the allstars before. Now we have 6 copies, to reliably get this affect going, and his effect is quite a bit more powerful for just 1 more mana.
Sanctum Prelate: this card is sexy. It makes me want to ditch Soldiers and just do a human theme. A turn 1 Chalice into turn 2 this guy seems nigh unbeatable for many decks. Having this card as basically a chalice on legs vs Spell heavy decks is absurd. You can name ANY number. This blows Meddling Mage out of the water. It's a 3 mana Iona, Shield of Emeria in many cases. I should probably be maindecking it.
Selfless Spirit seems like an essential card to add to this deck vs any control deck running Wrath effects. It can be fetched with Recruiter!! Mostly this is just good vs Pyroclasm and Abrupt Decay. All is Dust and Terminus don't give a care about this card
Originally I thought Palace Jailer would be broken in legacy, but after thinking a bit longer I'm not so sure. You want to play it vs creatures, but the problem is that creatures deal combat damage to you and which results in dethronement. This would be horrible thing to happen especially vs a control deck like Miracle's or Delver I'd imagine. You could potentially give them a free card every turn, and the more cards they have, the less chance you will have of regaining the throne. It's a high risk high reward card, and I would only play it if we can make it a low risk high reward card. Maybe it's just matchup dependent. It's true that in a grind match, or relatively stalled board state, this card could just take over the game. I WOULD love to play it, but conditions would have to be right.
I've already mentioned Hokori, Dust Drinker, it's a fetchable Winter Orb, so it's a card you will most likely drop play later in the game, and Winter Orbs affect is safer to play a bit later anyways to mitigate the masochism. Dropping this guy late when they tap out can be a pseudo-Armageddon. Though, if it's fetched for they will see it coming. I like to fetch for a creature then cheat it into play with Captain, which would prevent the spoiler factor. I wonder if D&T should play one of these bad boys, because it is bonkers with Rishadan Port, and not too shabby with Aether Vial as well.
It's nice to have Artifact and Enchantment removal that can be fetched, but I'm not sure which one is better Leonin Relic-Warder or War Priest of Thune. It might be Relic-Warder as it can hit both. Currently I have 2 Disenchant as well. I need a way to deal with the cards like Worship and Moat and Ensnaring Bridge
Intrepid Hero seem cool, and again, it can be fetched. I'm just not sure when it would be useful. Maybe it's good vs Eldrazi to kill all those Fatty Boom-Booms. I can see it being good vs Infect to deal with a pumped up dude.
I have Disenchant in my sideboard but is probably going to be cut, I"m sure before I even finish writing this. Again, not a you-win-game kind of card. Sure I could see it being like that vs Belcher??? Maybe?? Who even plays that deck? I actually don't know when I ever want to bring this card in, it's just sits in my sideboard idly making me feel comfortable. Sidenote; if you actually needed to click the card link for this, I'm assuming you don't actually play magic and you meant to be on the Yugioh forum. Disenchant is possibly the most reprinted card of all time.
Crackdown good vs Eldrazi, Goyf, Delver, I think this card could really turn creature matchups in our favor.
Crib Swap was in my sideboard for a while until recently, it's a great removal card in this deck that can you can put into you hand when revealed with Enlistment Officer. Again, it's not a card that reads, "deal with this or you lose the game," in any matchup, so I've been inclined to remove it for now.
Peacekeeper is ver very strong effect and it can be fetched with Recruiter. The problem is that it shuts down your attacks, and my only way to get rid of it is with ratchet bomb or attacking, this fact alone rules his card out methinks. I was playing vs infect which is very fast and I just wished I could slow them down to establish my board. I will find other cards to counter it.
Quick honorable mentions:
Commander Easha is a good blocker, evasion, and can't be bolts
Phyrexian Metamorph can be fetched and cast, and copies the biggest thing on the battlefield
Kataki, War's Wage is probably not necessary as Affinity is not a great legacy deck, but it's an option that can be fetched
Tsabo's Web is probably not necessary as it is really good vs Lands but we have lots of hate for that matchup already
Kor Hookmaster I could see this being played as it's kind of like a removal spell, that allow you to force threw dmg for the win and it can be fetched
Kor Skyfisher seems like it would fit in a Winter Orb version because you can recall a tapped land and then replay it, or recall an Officer or Prelate to replay. You can also do some other mana tricks with your mana accelerators.
Holy Light I'm not sure that this card could beat out others for a slot, but it can be great Infect and Empty the Warrens
Faerie Macabre has uses vs Dredge and Reanimator, but I'm not sure it's better than rest in peace. It can be fetched.
Some Final Notes:
I don't like running two many two mana spells in a Chalice deck, because playing Chalice for 2 can be very good sometimes
I'm wondering if Trinisphere is necessary for this deck. It has a lot of anti-synergy though, but it has a super power effect that will definitely be more of a burden for the opponent than it will be for the you, unless you're playing vs another stompy deck. I think a version with Trinisphere would need to remove the Soldier accelerators, at least Banneret. Also, it's lowering the creature count by 4 which makes Enlistment Officer worse.
I might run a singleton Mox Diamond because we don't have Simian Spirit Guide like Red Stompy to increase chances of turn 1 chalice or smooth out mana base. Blue Stompy has Trinket Mage that can fetch Seat of the Synod, and Eldrazi is colorless. We have the weakest manabase of all Stompy decks, if they made a white Simian Spirit Guide that could replace the Banneret and it was a soldier toooooo!! Oh I'd do WTOC's laundry. That being said, this mana base is still very playable, we have lots of good Chrome Mox targets, the only reason I'm not running 4 is because having a bunch in the opening hand can be bad, but it might be correct to run 4 in this deck, especially since we have so many legendary creatures.
That's all for now folks!
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
You have a lot of very similar cards to me on your decklist and honorable mentions. My hookmasters have become Palace Jailers. For now.....)
Crackdown is an excellent call for Eldrazi.
Getting rid of Peacekeeper is easy. Don't pay its upkeep.....
Derp...
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC
Also i´m really liking the direction you are taking with the deck. Full mana acceleration, its similar to what i have being playing. I have to mention I still think captain of the watch should be in at least as a 1-off, its the best choice we have at closing games after we slow down the opponent and also its good when the board is stale or on topdeck.
I think there are 3 directions to test the deck right now: controlish death and taxes with 4 recruiters and silver-bullets, full aggro with CotW and cost reducers, and a mix of both wich seems wath we are mostly playing but maybe isnt the best route to take
I'm not sure you realized how dangerous this card is your yourself. So much so that I don't think it's playable.
MODERN: Pure Pili-ness GU // Red Devotion RR // Green Devotion Variants GRWUG // U/G Emerge CGU // Lots and Lots of Brews BGRUWC